If you are equipped with NG gear only could you fight CS?

[Brigoon]

So I'm loving the new North Gun Book 1. As I was reading thought it for the millionth time yesterday I suddenly had a thought.


If you where fully equipped with NG equipment could you take on a similar size Coalition State force and win?

So for sake of Argument lets say your running a small team of 4 to 6 and you stumble onto a Coalition State squad of similar size. Let your imagination run wild and tell me what you think

I personally think you could, it would be a bloody a fair but I think the technology gap between NG and CS isn't so great that a smart commander would have to big a problem smashing the CS unit to bits. Plus they would win on cool factor, I mean have you see their new toys?

[flatline]

With such small numbers, anything is possible due to the whim of the dice.

Why don't you define a scenario and ask volunteers to run it a couple of times and report the results and any interesting observations (along with any house rules used, although that might not be necessary if you specify the rules to be used in your scenario).

--flatline

[kaid]

So I'm loving the new North Gun Book 1. As I was reading thought it for the millionth time yesterday I suddenly had a thought.


If you where fully equipped with NG equipment could you take on a similar size Coalition State force and win?

So for sake of Argument lets say your running a small team of 4 to 6 and you stumble onto a Coalition State squad of similar size. Let your imagination run wild and tell me what you think

I personally think you could, it would be a bloody a fair but I think the technology gap between NG and CS isn't so great that a smart commander would have to big a problem smashing the CS unit to bits. Plus they would win on cool factor, I mean have you see their new toys?

I believe they could the CS would have a bit of an edge in pure MDC especially in the power armor department until we can see what is done in NG2. Robot vehicles the CS has a bit more MDC a bit higher average damage although this varies from mech to mech but the NG seems to be not far behind MDC wise and most of its mechs seem to have a lot more versatility weapon wise.

Infantry wise it would be a fair fight the MDC of the weapons and armor are close enough to disappear in the RNG. The EBA for the CS currently has a bit of a lead with 100 MDC to around 80 for the NG but then the NG has the gladius armor and aquatic varients which have like 120 MDC and are the step between normal EBA armor and power armor they require battery charging but it sounded like from the books that it was not hard to hook up a charger to a robot vehicle/power armor with a nuke plant.

Currently the biggest lead the CS has at least until NG2 is in power armor. The newer samas have a ton of armor for power armor and are some of the best all around units the CS has.

[Shark_Force]

undodgeable surprise missile volleys are a very real possibility. as such, if you're willing to burn enough money for ammunition, you can pretty much annihilate an entire group of enemies with no realistic chance of retaliation in the first action. all it takes is to surprise the enemy.

so, not only could you pull that off with NG gear, you could probably do it with a jury-rigged missile launcher built from copper wire, angle iron, and a portable computer provided you have enough missiles on hand (and someone who's good at building concealed weapon emplacements).

and it's not like missiles are the only way, either... for example, a few fully automatic grenade launchers will have similar results. you'll need to fire more grenades as a rule (generally, grenades have much lower AOE and damage than missiles), but it's very possible.

[popscythe]

Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Alrik Vas]

A collection of good firing positions to create a kill zone will pretty much waste anybody.

But let's look at group make up of each side if it were a platoon engagement...

4 Special Forces OCC (this includes the Lieutenant and the Staff Sergeant, they will have light or medium NG power armor)
6 Wilderness Scout OCC (this includes the other Sergeant)
30 Merc Soldier OCC
MOS Split: 16 Grunts, 4 Medics, 5 Heavy/Pigman (they'll have NG grenade launchers, heavy rail guns, rocket launchers etc), 3 EOD (can never have enough boom, or ways to save yourself from boom...), 2 Communications

As a Note: 20% of them will be psychic, as humans and most D-bees tend to be. We'll assume they're all minor and have mostly non-combat abilities aside 2, which one will have sixth sense and the other TK push. Now if some of them are D-Bees, like Quick Flex or *gasp* a Grackletooth, this can change things quite a bit...

Now let's look at the opposition:

The Coalition platoon
1 Military Specialist OCC (the Lt)
2 CS Rangers (one is a Sergeant)
4 Dogboys
2 Psi-stalkers
3 RPA Pilot OCC (2 Super SAMAS, 1 Smiling Jack)
6 Technical OCC (Radio, sensors, 3 medics, 1 Operator)
16 CS Grunts (of various skill make-up to fill in gaps and add depth to the roster)
2 Special Forces OCC (assigned Striker SAMAS each, one is the other platoon sergeant)
1 CS Juicer
1 CS Cyborg Soldier

There's a lot more psionics in this group because of the dog boys and psi-stalker, plus another 20% of them would have powers as well. Plus there's a lot more OCC's with PA readily available. a CS platoon might also have 10 or 20 skelebots assigned to it, depending on if it was a long range patrol.

Of course, this is just my envisioning of what each force would have. I think the NG platoon is underskilled and has less variety, and i believe that would be true in practice rather than just my theory. Of course...in reality...a group with NG tech has no compunctions about using magic, but that's a whole different can of worms.

[Blue_Lion]

A collection of good firing positions to create a kill zone will pretty much waste anybody.

But let's look at group make up of each side if it were a platoon engagement...

4 Special Forces OCC (this includes the Lieutenant and the Staff Sergeant, they will have light or medium NG power armor)
6 Wilderness Scout OCC (this includes the other Sergeant)
30 Merc Soldier OCC
MOS Split: 16 Grunts, 4 Medics, 5 Heavy/Pigman (they'll have NG grenade launchers, heavy rail guns, rocket launchers etc), 3 EOD (can never have enough boom, or ways to save yourself from boom...), 2 Communications

As a Note: 20% of them will be psychic, as humans and most D-bees tend to be. We'll assume they're all minor and have mostly non-combat abilities aside 2, which one will have sixth sense and the other TK push. Now if some of them are D-Bees, like Quick Flex or *gasp* a Grackletooth, this can change things quite a bit...

Now let's look at the opposition:

The Coalition platoon
1 Military Specialist OCC (the Lt)
2 CS Rangers (one is a Sergeant)
4 Dogboys
2 Psi-stalkers
3 RPA Pilot OCC (2 Super SAMAS, 1 Smiling Jack)
6 Technical OCC (Radio, sensors, 3 medics, 1 Operator)
16 CS Grunts (of various skill make-up to fill in gaps and add depth to the roster)
2 Special Forces OCC (assigned Striker SAMAS each, one is the other platoon sergeant)
1 CS Juicer
1 CS Cyborg Soldier

There's a lot more psionics in this group because of the dog boys and psi-stalker, plus another 20% of them would have powers as well. Plus there's a lot more OCC's with PA readily available. a CS platoon might also have 10 or 20 skelebots assigned to it, depending on if it was a long range patrol.

Of course, this is just my envisioning of what each force would have. I think the NG platoon is underskilled and has less variety, and i believe that would be true in practice rather than just my theory. Of course...in reality...a group with NG tech has no compunctions about using magic, but that's a whole different can of worms.

That does not look like a standard platoon set up as it is crossing into to many corpse.
That is looks more like a elite custom strike force than a military platoon. More of standard platoons would be.

SF platoon is likely to be
20-36 CS SF. All with striker Samas.

Infantry platoon would be.
25-40 CS grunts.
1 military operation specialist (officer)
Probably being transported in APCs
(PA and dog packs are more likely to be battalion assets assigned as needed. Outside of open warfare with mage state most platoons will not have them. This is partly based on logistics.)

PA platoon.
25-40 Pa pilot MOS
with what ever PA they are assigned most likely SAMAS.

Recon Platoon.
15-25 CS rangers
4-12 Dog boys.
1-2 psi-stalkers.

Large patrols may have a squad of Samas assigned to fly close air support. Patrols looking for mages are likely to have a dog pack assigned to them. So in truth what you encounter is dependent on the unit and mission.

[Alrik Vas]

cute. how about take that now and decide who would win? That's what the post is about, not who comes up with a more accurate platoon composition.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Fight Smarter baby, not Harder.

Small unit make up, as pointed out, anything could happen. Our groups use alot of NG gear. And that was before the new NG book. Living 'in' NG it's always had a sort of home team vibe. It's also a hold over from the old US so we liked that. We also liked the 'Heavy sturdy, might not have bling but sure has bang" aspect of the NG brand. It's always been one of my faves.

So I'd say, yes, You can certainly win against a small unit of CS. You're going to feel it. Especially if the CS are not played like idiot stormtoopers, but like a real military unit. But you COULD win. You'd -need- to fight smart. But it could be done.

As the CS unit gets bigger your chances start to go down. For example, I don't call a 40 man platoon a small unit. Past squad size (and probably even at squad size) The CS is going to be able to call in air support and possibly artillery.

A small unit of Mercs isn't going to win against a formal army, no matter what gear they have. But small unit vs small unit, you can do it. I've done it in the past and that was before all the new shiny things.

Give me a GunWolf and I'll make them rue the day! RUE IT HARD!

[kaid]

undodgeable surprise missile volleys are a very real possibility. as such, if you're willing to burn enough money for ammunition, you can pretty much annihilate an entire group of enemies with no realistic chance of retaliation in the first action. all it takes is to surprise the enemy.

so, not only could you pull that off with NG gear, you could probably do it with a jury-rigged missile launcher built from copper wire, angle iron, and a portable computer provided you have enough missiles on hand (and someone who's good at building concealed weapon emplacements).

and it's not like missiles are the only way, either... for example, a few fully automatic grenade launchers will have similar results. you'll need to fire more grenades as a rule (generally, grenades have much lower AOE and damage than missiles), but it's very possible.

Or just use the NG automated anti air "mines" which basically have a set of sub mini missiles that auto lock/track/fire on targets that fit their programed targets. They fly fast enough to engage and hit most flying power armor and any ground vehicle. No need to kludge it when they already have pre built NG approved versions.

[kaid]

A collection of good firing positions to create a kill zone will pretty much waste anybody.

But let's look at group make up of each side if it were a platoon engagement...

4 Special Forces OCC (this includes the Lieutenant and the Staff Sergeant, they will have light or medium NG power armor)
6 Wilderness Scout OCC (this includes the other Sergeant)
30 Merc Soldier OCC
MOS Split: 16 Grunts, 4 Medics, 5 Heavy/Pigman (they'll have NG grenade launchers, heavy rail guns, rocket launchers etc), 3 EOD (can never have enough boom, or ways to save yourself from boom...), 2 Communications

As a Note: 20% of them will be psychic, as humans and most D-bees tend to be. We'll assume they're all minor and have mostly non-combat abilities aside 2, which one will have sixth sense and the other TK push. Now if some of them are D-Bees, like Quick Flex or *gasp* a Grackletooth, this can change things quite a bit...

Now let's look at the opposition:

The Coalition platoon
1 Military Specialist OCC (the Lt)
2 CS Rangers (one is a Sergeant)
4 Dogboys
2 Psi-stalkers
3 RPA Pilot OCC (2 Super SAMAS, 1 Smiling Jack)
6 Technical OCC (Radio, sensors, 3 medics, 1 Operator)
16 CS Grunts (of various skill make-up to fill in gaps and add depth to the roster)
2 Special Forces OCC (assigned Striker SAMAS each, one is the other platoon sergeant)
1 CS Juicer
1 CS Cyborg Soldier

There's a lot more psionics in this group because of the dog boys and psi-stalker, plus another 20% of them would have powers as well. Plus there's a lot more OCC's with PA readily available. a CS platoon might also have 10 or 20 skelebots assigned to it, depending on if it was a long range patrol.

Of course, this is just my envisioning of what each force would have. I think the NG platoon is underskilled and has less variety, and i believe that would be true in practice rather than just my theory. Of course...in reality...a group with NG tech has no compunctions about using magic, but that's a whole different can of worms.

I would tend to think most NG forces which are mostly merc forces would tend to be armor heavy with big robots vehicles a bit more common than standard and high number of head hunters more so than just generic merc soldier OCC. NG's armed forces and merc forces are not that huge I think the NG1 preview book put it at the high point a bit over 100k soldiers. What NG does have going for it is its manufacturing so likely most merc forces they hire/equip are going to tend to be on the smaller numbers but really well equipped side. Instead of giving medals for valor NG gives gift cards and discounts for high end bang bangs.

Also as one of the primary sources for high end augmentation of adventurers and a common way to pay for borg/juicer augmentation is through years of service contracts I would expect a pretty high percentage of all NG forces to be indentured cyborgs/juicers paying for their goodies.



Edit

As a side note the NG1 preview did have some sample Merc companies that are under contract for the defense of NG and all of them were pretty heavily armed and equiped most had a pretty sizable amount of robot vehicles/power armor for their size. At least a couple even had big armored ships used as bases for rapid deployment of forces/secure basing.

[Alrik Vas]

That's really good to know, actually. Since i'm not familiar with most of NG's new gear though, i guess I'm not very qualified to make this call, then. I'll have to do some studying.

[Blue_Lion]

Well who wins really depends on what you fight and use. It is possible to encounter CS units and beat them with NG gear, but it is also possible to hit a CS unit and be totally out gunned. There are just to many variables to say it will go one way or another most the time. If you do a side by side break down of to peace's of gear Designed for the same purpose you can see how they stack up.

Lets take a few types of gear and see if you can match or beat the CS with NG gear.

Body armor
Exoskeleton armor.
Heavy infantry weapon
Fling PA
Ground PA
Assault robot
APC
Tank
Close air support vehicle (think of vehicles you would use similar to helicopters.)
Air superiority-Jets

Personally I see the CS loosing at heavy infantry weapons.
Do not know what the NG has to beat the Striker Samas or super samas in the Air.
Many of the CS vehicles are knocked off by NG so NG may tie or beat them in vehicles.

[kaid]

I think matched forces platoon to company size NG forces would be a pretty tough fight for the CS. The percentage of augmented troops such as head hunters/borgs/juicers is going to be pretty high in comparison to the CS. I think the CS would have an edge with psionics but it depends on what merc company is involved NG has a lot less overall cohesiveness in troop composition. Psi stalkers are pretty common in wisconsin and MN so I would assume a pretty healthy complement of them in most NG forces and also while Dbee are not "officially" part of the NG military forces its pretty much don't ask don't tell so unofficially a fair amount of NG merc forces are going to be DB especially more human looking DB which is a bit of a wild card capability wise.

Magic usage officially magic is banned in the NG but again it is some what wink wink/nudge nudge and at least one of the described Merc companies on charter with the NG has a small complement of spell casters for use when outside the prying eyes of higher command. So unlikely to be involved in most fights but it cannot be ruled out that one or more magic users would be in the NG force.

Heavy metal
Both the CS and NG have a lot of heavy armor capability and use it extensively. I think overall NG probably winds up having a bit higher overall precentage of robot vehicle/power armor usage than the CS simply because it does not have the massive number of grunts/dog boys the CS has. But again given the NG's merc based force there are no set squad/platoon compositions so you cannot easily make direct comparisons.

Vehicles
Without seeing NG2 this is hard to say I would assume CS has a bit of a lead here but otherwise pretty comparable. I assume enough APC's either hover/tracked/wheeled to carry any associated grunts on either side and some airborne hover assets will be pretty common for both forces. CS using sky cycles and NG forces using Sky kings. Again it is a bit hard to say for sure without NG2 but the old style skyking was a reasonable match for the sky cycle and I expect that to be the same now with CS having a small lead.

Infantry
NG has less man power than the CS and nothing like the semi disposable dog pack so overall the pure number of grunts used is going to be a lower percentage of the forces encountered. Equipment amongst the troopers is going to be pretty comprable. The heavy NG armor is close to the CS armor and both sides troops are well equiped and well provisioned with high end body armor and high end energy weapons.


Overall I think due to the larger amount of "special" forces and at least on the small scale size higher use of heavy robot vehicles NG may actually have a bit of an advantage but the CS forces outnumber NG forces 10-1 or more and overall have way more of everything although due to the army being so much bigger what they have for heavy combat multipliers like robots/power armor is a bit more diffused.

[taalismn]

Where there's a will, there's a trap.

Fixed.

[Vrykolas2k]

Where there's a will, there's a trap.

Fixed.

Marionette ambushes are my fave irl, and in rpgs.
So, yes, the CS can have a bad day if you're a bunch of mundies using NG gear.

[Jerell]

Even with inferior equipment, motivated and well lead troops can (and have) overcome more numerous, better equipped enemies. Such as the fall of Singapore in WW2 or the Finnish fighting off the USSR during the Winter War.

[Shark_Force]

like i said, it is possible to make a sufficiently large first strike that it is simply impossible to be in the area and survive. and you don't need any super high tech shenanigans to pull it off.

all you need is lots of explosives (if you're limited to SDC, the amount required increases, but it is still possible). and some form of delivery system that can rapidly discharge said explosives. that can be as advanced as a phasing multi-warhead reflex missile, and it can be as primitive as a crudload of black powder and catapults (some sort of reliable ignition system highly recommended of course).

well, that and surprise. without the surprise, you could be pretty thoroughly screwed if you're using mass quantities of black powder and catapults.

[kaid]

I was looking at the NG1 prototype last night just to see what the break down of some of the merc companies are. One of the more standard merc companies for ground based operations broke down like this

Infantry company 160 troops
Of those 30 are wilderness scouts, 10 full conversion borgs, 10 head hunters 30 special ops 10 psy stalkers. ( note the other infantry companies listed with other merc outits had a similar percentage break down with some having less head hunters and more borgs or less head hunters and replaced them with juicers).

Mechanized company 48 robot/power armor pilots in assorted robot vehicles/power armor break down seemed roughly half and half between power armor and robots.

Juicer company 42 juicers of various sorts.


Some of the other companies replaced the juicer company with an air wing of flying power armor or sky king type attack craft.

So seems my gut guess is about right pretty high percentage of augmented troopers juicers/borgs and mechanized units to foot trooper ratio. Some of them its close to 1 to 1 for normal foot trooper vs augmented trooper or mechanized unit.

one of the posters above had a better idea for a break down.
Lets take a few types of gear and see if you can match or beat the CS with NG gear.

Body armor
Exoskeleton armor.
Heavy infantry weapon
Fling PA
Ground PA
Assault robot
APC
Tank
Close air support vehicle (think of vehicles you would use similar to helicopters.)
Air superiority-Jets

I took a look at my CS war books and the NG1 prototype so please note I do NOT yet have my full copy of NG1 so I can only go by the existing robots in the book and do not have the updated list of infantry weapons from it available just the normal RUE, mercs, merc ops.

Body armor for plain body armor it is pretty close. CS heavy armor is 100 MDC and NG produces a heavy armor that is 80 MDC but takes half damage from kinetic attacks. So overall pretty close for overall combat survivability probably within levels of statistical variation.

Exoskeleton armor: The CS version appears to have 200 MDC but pretty limited deployment mainly to heavy weapon operators and the like. The NG versions are a bit odd you have the gladius at 120 MDC and then you get a modified gladius amphibious armor that is 175. Some of this stuff is in the really grey area of exo EBA armor or really light power armor. Also we will probably see modifications of this in NG2 as that is where the body armor stuff should be listed. Right now I give edge to CS but its pretty close.

Heavy infantry weapon. I was actually shocked but even without NG1 full version NG actually wins this. The best plasma gun of the CS is 1d6x10 and the NG has a pulse plasma weapon that does 2d4x10. Now the CS one is a lot more managable weight wise with the NG weapon coming in at 50 pounds but given the high amount of augmented troopers in the NG forces the weight likely is not a hinderance. Now admittedly its not a huge difference which is as expected but I was just surprised that the NG came out on top of this one and that is not even including whatever else gets added in the huge weapon section of NG1.

Flying PA this is easy CS hands down. The specific reason for this is the NG specifically is NOT expanding much into this field as they have seen how the CS flipped the hell out at bandito arms for the samas production. It is not that they could not make good flying power armor it is just as a way of placating the CS they have chosen not to. To the point where if the CS objects seriously to the red hawks they have plans to simply scrap that line of power armor rather than come into conflict with the CS on it. That said there appears to be at least one varient of the red hawk coming in NG2 called the blue hawk if this is an upgrade/side grade or what I do not know but given the lore it is not going to match the super samas by intention.

Ground PA I actually give the lead here to the NG pretty solidly even without NG2. The samson is a really tough solid and FAST power armor with the default version being faster than any of CS ground armors and pretty hard hitting. The samson missile man variant is not as fast but at 80MPH still faster than many other power armors in the field and if it has somebody with reloads around is probably the hardest hitting long range power armor seen in rifts books at least for the opening volley or two. The missile man packs 10 short range missiles and 20 or 30 mini missiles. With even average damage rolls one missile samson varient can flat destroy a super samas from 5 miles out and still have enough short range missiles to wound or destroy a second. If they are targting the smaller smiling jack samas it could kill 3 easily and probably 4 before the samas even entered mini missile range.

The best ground power armor for the CS is probably the glitter boy killer which is really nice but oddly for something that supposedly hunts glitter boys is pretty sadly lacking in range. The NG PA that currently holds a similar layout to this would be the juicer killer. Both are pretty similar speeds the GB killer has more armor but the juicer killers combat computer gives it EIGHT extra attacks per round. It is hard to beat something that attacks twice as fast as you from longer range.

I think some of the power swing here to the NG side is the CS power armor corps has always favored the SAMAS as their PA of choice and put all their major power/effort into the upgraded SAMAS and the ground power armor is there but not really a major focus for them.

Assault Robots with just the 10 new ones from NG1 prototype pretty close matches. Overall the CS is in the lead of pure MDC for main body location but the difference is not huge. The Skull crusher has 990 and the blocker has 570 but also has a 24 foot tall shield that has 300 MDC that takes half damage from missile attacks. Overall combat surviability is probably pretty close as one of the biggest threats to any large mech is alpha strikes of missiles that cannot be dodged. Against those kinds of attacks the blocker is arguably even a bit more durable than the skull crusher.

I think the CS probably has a small lead but its mostly in speed and a bit more MDC. The weapon systems are pretty close matches with the NG units tending to be more missile heavy. Just check out the new NG1 preview of the new upgraded multibot. It has a significant amount of medium/short and mini missiles. The old URA1 had a similar good balance of missile types but the newer CS models are actually pretty light on missiles oddly enough.

APC with what we currently have CS has a lead but NG2 is where most of this will come in. The CS main advantage over most of their opponents winds up being their flying death head transports. They are big, fast, heavily armored and can fly at both low and high altitude. The NG has the sky bunker but its slower has less altitude for its flight ceiling and has around half the MDC of a deaths head transport. I don't see NG2 changing that much as I don't want to antagonize the CS as they saw what happened to new kenora for making the sky castle bomber.

Tank again this one probably needs to be left till NG2 comes out.

Close air support this probably needs to wait till NG2 comes out to see what if any upgrades the sky king gets. The sky king always was a good match for the sky cycle so we will have to wait and see if the sky king gets an upgrade to be a closer match to the newer sky cycles. Honestly though with the super samas I think close air support always will favor the CS.

Air superiority jets this probably again has to wait till NG2. If I had to guess that the NG will make their designs good but intentionally not direct competition for the CS versions.

[Tor]

Sure, using the original RoF rules for the NG particle beam rifle, I could dish out more than a Boom Gun.

[jaymz]

I think a NG equipped force could take on a similarly equipped CS force on fairly equal footing with a good chance of success.

When I similarly I mean Redhawk PA versus Original Samas, etc etc. Obviously if the CS is coming with Super Sams versus the Redhawks the CS has a major advantage. As for infantry and Robot Vehicles they seem to be fairly equal in power/mdc more or less and it would largely come down to tactics used by each side.

[kaid]

One interesting advantage for the NG is for some reason during the CS war campaign book almost all the new CS designs are really light on longer range missiles. The old URA-1 was a pretty solid design for missile capability with medium/short and mini missiles. The skull smasher has a few medium range missiles which is nice but pretty much everything else is mini missiles only.

[sarcusdarc]

If the NG equipped team is out looking for CS troops to smash then they would most likely be well prepared for anything that the CS could throw at them. But it is dependent on how far from a base the CS squad is. If they're close to a base then the NG squad could smahs the first patrol but when waves of backup start flying in they might be hard pressed. Most of the new NG stuff is pretty specialized so if you used a balanced load of Mid range precision weapons and short range crowd control ones you could take almost any CS squad. Even Super SAMAS.

[kaid]

One of the nastier toys the NG has had for a while is the missile man variant of the samson. It has enough short range missiles to almost guarantee a kill of a super samas and about half of a second for a fraction of the price of one super samas.

On a one on one basis most CS designs are "better". They are in most cases faster and more heavily armored.

The NG's advantage at least for mercs is there are a TON of options available to fill specific requirements/needs and there are options that can shave off quite a bit of cost if you are willing to deal with having some dedicated recharging vehicle especially for power armor.

There are quite a few really good sets of power armor available in the 500,000 to 800,000 credit range if you are willing to deal with electric or solid oxide. The solid oxide option is really nice for anybody with a base because it gives you a solid 4 week run time or longer depending on usage which is plenty of range/time between refueling for any normal defensive patrol.

So a merc force would be able to field a lot higher percentage of armored units than one would expect.

Offensively there is not a lot of difference between the CS and NG units. CS missiles are a bit stronger but overall the main weapons offered by either side are all roughly in the same ball park for range/damage. The CS units in general have fewer weapons focusing on one main gun and some secondary weapons. The NG units tend towards multiple weapon systems and multiple "main" weapons especially for vehicles/combat robots so less vulnerable to sharp shooters disarming them.

Overall the NG units are very competent designs. Good offensive punch good armor reasonable mobility and a full unit of them would likely be a tough challenge for a matching force of CS.

[eliakon]

I think the question of 'could you fight the CS' is less "what sort of gear" would you need and more of "what sort of logistics" would you need.
If you had a force with roughly equivalent levels of logistical supply, of troops, etc. Then sure you could probably use NG gear just fine. Or put it another way. Two forces (say a proxy war) one armed with CS gear, one armed with NG gear. While the CS force may have an edge in some areas, the NG force would not be totally outclassed, and with the new materials would actually have the edge in some other areas.
But the NG vs the CS....the CS would win hands down. They have the size and the logistical support to overwhelm the NG.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the question of 'could you fight the CS' is less "what sort of gear" would you need and more of "what sort of logistics" would you need.
If you had a force with roughly equivalent levels of logistical supply, of troops, etc. Then sure you could probably use NG gear just fine. Or put it another way. Two forces (say a proxy war) one armed with CS gear, one armed with NG gear. While the CS force may have an edge in some areas, the NG force would not be totally outclassed, and with the new materials would actually have the edge in some other areas.
But the NG vs the CS....the CS would win hands down. They have the size and the logistical support to overwhelm the NG.

I am not sure the CS have the size of logistic support to overwhelm the NG. CS supports itself only while NG supplies most of north America. So NG can quite possibly match CS output, and transport supplies any where in NA. In addition there is hints that NG may be providing parts to the CS.

[Shark_Force]

of course, as soon as the CS decides to go to war with NG, they'll suddenly roll out hundreds of thousands of units of an entire new line of CS equipment that none of their enemies even had the faintest clue were being developed, without needing to worry in the slightest about supplies to the extent that they'll be able to just mothball quantities of their formerly state of the art technology that could outfit the standing army of every single other military power in north America, including having replacements.

so yeah, I'm gonna have to say that based on the canon production capabilities of the CS, northern gun can't even come remotely close to what the CS can do in terms of production. the CS replaced 3.2 million SAMAS alone in the course of a few months, and nobody even had a clue they were doing it; now add in that they replaced every suit of body armour, every laser rifle, every combat vehicle (well, maybe not the leopard... can't remember), and every robot vehicle, plus unveiling multiple new types of combat aircraft, all while still producing millions of skelebots... if you actually take the canon at face value, quite frankly I suspect the CS outproduces most planets in the three galaxies.

[flatline]

of course, as soon as the CS decides to go to war with NG, they'll suddenly roll out hundreds of thousands of units of an entire new line of CS equipment that none of their enemies even had the faintest clue were being developed, without needing to worry in the slightest about supplies to the extent that they'll be able to just mothball quantities of their formerly state of the art technology that could outfit the standing army of every single other military power in north America, including having replacements.

so yeah, I'm gonna have to say that based on the canon production capabilities of the CS, northern gun can't even come remotely close to what the CS can do in terms of production. the CS replaced 3.2 million SAMAS alone in the course of a few months, and nobody even had a clue they were doing it; now add in that they replaced every suit of body armour, every laser rifle, every combat vehicle (well, maybe not the leopard... can't remember), and every robot vehicle, plus unveiling multiple new types of combat aircraft, all while still producing millions of skelebots... if you actually take the canon at face value, quite frankly I suspect the CS outproduces most planets in the three galaxies.

CWC, while a cool book by itself, did a great deal of damage to the integrity of the setting.

--flatline

[grandmaster z0b]

Is it a squad of infantry, power armor, giant robots or mixed?

[Alrik Vas]

One interesting advantage for the NG is for some reason during the CS war campaign book almost all the new CS designs are really light on longer range missiles. The old URA-1 was a pretty solid design for missile capability with medium/short and mini missiles. The skull smasher has a few medium range missiles which is nice but pretty much everything else is mini missiles only.

I think aircraft need to be discussed. Long range attack generally isn't the job of power armor, and if you're bringing the full suite of gear into play, the CS has some pretty terrifying long range capabilities. Firestorm for one, but more mundanely, the Mark VII, which can launch about 90 LRMs per melee. Then the Nightwings, with MRM and LRM and can bust out speeds of mach 2+. I only bring these guys up because in general, ground units don't lob the bombs, that's a job for air power. Sure, having a giant bot with big missiles is fine and dandy, useful tactically and all, but you want your long reach to be on something that's either never going to be bothered because the range is so long, or on something that's going to be leaving Dodge before the enemy even knows their dead.

Though, I love the new NG gear. I think it's all very solid.

[kaid]

I would agree it seems that the CS left most of their longer range missile capability for their planes and a few specific armored vehicles where as it looks like the NG has a larger percentage of their known missile launching capability on robotic platforms like the missile man and the new variant of that weird mega bot. More of a doctrine choice than a capability one.

One of the biggest issues an NG force would have is in general unless its a force of mostly samsons and faster power armor if that NG force gets stuck in vs a CS one they are in a fight to the death because the NG force is unlikely to be able to outrun the CS forces .

[kaid]

of course, as soon as the CS decides to go to war with NG, they'll suddenly roll out hundreds of thousands of units of an entire new line of CS equipment that none of their enemies even had the faintest clue were being developed, without needing to worry in the slightest about supplies to the extent that they'll be able to just mothball quantities of their formerly state of the art technology that could outfit the standing army of every single other military power in north America, including having replacements.

so yeah, I'm gonna have to say that based on the canon production capabilities of the CS, northern gun can't even come remotely close to what the CS can do in terms of production. the CS replaced 3.2 million SAMAS alone in the course of a few months, and nobody even had a clue they were doing it; now add in that they replaced every suit of body armour, every laser rifle, every combat vehicle (well, maybe not the leopard... can't remember), and every robot vehicle, plus unveiling multiple new types of combat aircraft, all while still producing millions of skelebots... if you actually take the canon at face value, quite frankly I suspect the CS outproduces most planets in the three galaxies.

I don't really take this to be an NG vs CS war scenario as that would only ever have one ending and it would not be the NG winning simply due to weight of numbers. It would be more of a what if a squad of CS encountered a merc force equiped in NG gear type scenario.

[Shark_Force]

of course, as soon as the CS decides to go to war with NG, they'll suddenly roll out hundreds of thousands of units of an entire new line of CS equipment that none of their enemies even had the faintest clue were being developed, without needing to worry in the slightest about supplies to the extent that they'll be able to just mothball quantities of their formerly state of the art technology that could outfit the standing army of every single other military power in north America, including having replacements.

so yeah, I'm gonna have to say that based on the canon production capabilities of the CS, northern gun can't even come remotely close to what the CS can do in terms of production. the CS replaced 3.2 million SAMAS alone in the course of a few months, and nobody even had a clue they were doing it; now add in that they replaced every suit of body armour, every laser rifle, every combat vehicle (well, maybe not the leopard... can't remember), and every robot vehicle, plus unveiling multiple new types of combat aircraft, all while still producing millions of skelebots... if you actually take the canon at face value, quite frankly I suspect the CS outproduces most planets in the three galaxies.

I don't really take this to be an NG vs CS war scenario as that would only ever have one ending and it would not be the NG winning simply due to weight of numbers. It would be more of a what if a squad of CS encountered a merc force equiped in NG gear type scenario.

that's the general topic of the thread, yes.

in context of the post immediately before mine, however:

I think the question of 'could you fight the CS' is less "what sort of gear" would you need and more of "what sort of logistics" would you need.
If you had a force with roughly equivalent levels of logistical supply, of troops, etc. Then sure you could probably use NG gear just fine. Or put it another way. Two forces (say a proxy war) one armed with CS gear, one armed with NG gear. While the CS force may have an edge in some areas, the NG force would not be totally outclassed, and with the new materials would actually have the edge in some other areas.
But the NG vs the CS....the CS would win hands down. They have the size and the logistical support to overwhelm the NG.

I am not sure the CS have the size of logistic support to overwhelm the NG. CS supports itself only while NG supplies most of north America. So NG can quite possibly match CS output, and transport supplies any where in NA. In addition there is hints that NG may be providing parts to the CS.

you can see that this post in particular raised the question of whether the CS can outproduce NG.

which, if you believe the canon, the answer is that that CS can probably NG by an order of magnitude or two.

note: i don't necessarily have a problem with the CS being able to produce more than NG, for the record - so long as we stick with the assumption that the CS does in fact have several million soldiers, plus all of their "police forces" (which are essentially military) and dog boys - nobody else has several million guaranteed customers all to themselves, so nobody else needs as much production. but i do think it's silly that they can replace their entire inventory in a few months with completely new models. i also think it's silly that not one of their enemies had the faintest idea it was coming, but that's silly for reasons completely unrelated to their manufacturing capabilities.

[Killer Cyborg]

i do think it's silly that they can replace their entire inventory in a few months with completely new models.

Maybe give up the highly inaccurate idea that that's what happened, then.
Read the books, pay attention.
If you want to start yet another round of "Let's Ignore All The Lead-Up, and Pretend That The CS' Power Level Comes Out Of The Blue," then I suppose I'm game... but please start a new thread.

This one was interesting.

[Zamion138]

Since your mainly using ng1 its all robots and not pa, looking at a heavy mechanized unit of cs say 5 or 6 large robots vs 5 or 6 large ng robots with out foot soliders and with out pa...cs wins hands down.
Cs vs angar or NE, the cs looses

[kaid]

NG's factory output is very impressive given the sizes of its cities and towns but chitown is only the biggest of the CS fortress cities and not its only one and Chitown alone has a population that pretty much matches the entire northern gun. So I have no doubt the CS factories even without some of the handwavium from the CS war book would be much greater than the NG's output. The CS output though is focused very heavily on their military which is why they do wind up importing quite a bit of stuff from the northern gun for consumer goods and non military stuff.

[Pepsi Jedi]

but i do think it's silly that they can replace their entire inventory in a few months with completely new models. i also think it's silly that not one of their enemies had the faintest idea it was coming, but that's silly for reasons completely unrelated to their manufacturing capabilities.

If by 'a few months' to mean 60 months? CWC is clear that the buildup of the 'new' CS Forces took over 5 years to roll out, and even then distant outposts would be using old gear for the next few years. It points out that during that time, many people out side of the CS was wondering what was going on, as the CS was acting strange. (For the CS) and how some even wondered if the CS was in decline during those years. (It's right there in CWC, directly in print)

As for 'not one of their enemies had the faintest idea it was coming' you're ignoring "Numerous reports of strange skeleton warriors" that had been popping up for years during the testing stages.

"Silly" is loaded, when you change what is actually in the books. If it was like you're making out it might be more silly, but that's just not how it went down.

We as players also need to remember an important detail. We're sitting here in 2014. Almost 2015. CWC was written.... almost TWENTY YEARS AGO. It came out in 1996. So even the last two DECADES of modern advanced (everything) wasn't around when it was written. Pause and actually think of the changes in technology between 96 and today. CD's were in use. VHS was in use. The internet was just getting into swing. We were all on dial up modems. Down loading one song off napster might take you 30 minutes to two hours, and when you finally finished you felt great!! You finally got one! lol. So you have to keep that in mind when you're reading about the gear levels and what not and production levels and all sorts of things. Much of the reference we have for rifts is twenty+ years old, --- for us---. If those books were written now they'd be very much different.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the question of 'could you fight the CS' is less "what sort of gear" would you need and more of "what sort of logistics" would you need.
If you had a force with roughly equivalent levels of logistical supply, of troops, etc. Then sure you could probably use NG gear just fine. Or put it another way. Two forces (say a proxy war) one armed with CS gear, one armed with NG gear. While the CS force may have an edge in some areas, the NG force would not be totally outclassed, and with the new materials would actually have the edge in some other areas.
But the NG vs the CS....the CS would win hands down. They have the size and the logistical support to overwhelm the NG.

I am not sure the CS have the size of logistic support to overwhelm the NG. CS supports itself only while NG supplies most of north America. So NG can quite possibly match CS output, and transport supplies any where in NA. In addition there is hints that NG may be providing parts to the CS.

you can see that this post in particular raised the question of whether the CS can outproduce NG.

which, if you believe the canon, the answer is that that CS can probably NG by an order of magnitude or two.

note: i don't necessarily have a problem with the CS being able to produce more than NG, for the record - so long as we stick with the assumption that the CS does in fact have several million soldiers, plus all of their "police forces" (which are essentially military) and dog boys - nobody else has several million guaranteed customers all to themselves, so nobody else needs as much production. but i do think it's silly that they can replace their entire inventory in a few months with completely new models. i also think it's silly that not one of their enemies had the faintest idea it was coming, but that's silly for reasons completely unrelated to their manufacturing capabilities.

Really maybe I missed that, please give the page that has that cannon information.
NG supplies not only there own people but are one of the leading sources of gear for all north America. They have to compete with others so that means they have to provide a quality product at a completive price while the CS has a locked in clientele and to not have to compete. Also the minion war for rifts says that NG manufacturing capacity is the key to fighting off a demon and devil invasion. CS can not bring all its resources to bear in one place they have to much territory to protect. Given that two small nations Free Quebec and Tolkeen Could match the CS production in the field and neither of them specialized in mass production. ( By the way according the CS war book took at least 5 years build up for the CS to outfit there troops with new gear.)

[flatline]

( By the way according the CS war book took at least 5 years build up for the CS to outfit there troops with new gear.)

Is that 5 years of production or does that include the research, development, and production spool-up?

--flatline

[Zamion138]

With the stated 40% discount to demon fighters in MiF that NG is giving you might actualy be able to afford a giant robot. Honestly I wasnt overly impressed with most of the robots in NG1, way to short range in most cases and not enough benifits other than a full crew over just buying PA.
But we always double range and mdc for full size robots in our games( for everything but missiles)

[kaid]

Robots like the bulldog/scorpion/okemos wind up being pretty nice as they are reasonable combat machines but more importantly have environmentally sealed and strong MDC protected bunks/sleeping areas. When one is fighting demons/devils having a sleeping area that would take a significant amount of effort to enter is a pretty big selling feature.

[Zamion138]

Robots like the bulldog/scorpion/okemos wind up being pretty nice as they are reasonable combat machines but more importantly have environmentally sealed and strong MDC protected bunks/sleeping areas. When one is fighting demons/devils having a sleeping area that would take a significant amount of effort to enter is a pretty big selling feature.

Yeah but an up armored big boss is what 110k after upping the armor? And everyone can fit inside, not to mention room for a 4 suits of light (the ng power armors) pa's and your still saving money. You could have 4 people in light pa with 2 railguns 1 mini missele rifle (cs) and one heavy laser rilfe like a ja 12 and everyone carying thoose disposable medium missele luanchers on their back for extreme range and still your saving money and have a larger number of attacks more abilities and more damedge output.
This argument has been done to death massive robots are beyond cool but as written and priced its not worth it if you dont house rule robots to be better.

[Blue_Lion]

( By the way according the CS war book took at least 5 years build up for the CS to outfit there troops with new gear.)

Is that 5 years of production or does that include the research, development, and production spool-up?

--flatline

You should address that to Pepsi Jedi not my post as he went more into detail. And is a CS lover.
Some one said they spent a few months reequipping there troops which is not the case. Even with an fire year spool some of there remote outpost did not have the new gear.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm a CS lover?

[Alrik Vas]

( By the way according the CS war book took at least 5 years build up for the CS to outfit there troops with new gear.)

Is that 5 years of production or does that include the research, development, and production spool-up?

--flatline

I don't think the book talks about how long development took, but it's likely these things are built up over a long period of time. There are a lot of projects today that have been worked on for a decade and more before they go into production. The CS likely had a lot of their new tech held in reserve until the majority of their new line was ready for combat so they could unveil it all at once.

[Blue_Lion]

I'm a CS lover?

Do you not have a strong like to the CS and even have them as your profile pic and avatar. You always seam to have a strong attraction to them.
Me I might play them or use them but they are not my focus. So debating the build up with you, would be better prepared and more interesting than with me.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I love the Ramon Perez art. For me it 'Defines' rifts in my mental images. The stuff he did for the CS was nice. I actually like the FQ armors alot better but the Icons didn't provide a shot I wanted/liked.

I don't 'dislike' the CS. I do end up defending them often from people that either don't have access to all the information I do (Not everyone has invested $100s and 100s like I have to own all the books) Or don't play the CS as written, or mis-represent them. I'm not sure that translates into a 'love of the cs" or me being a "CS Lover". I like them for the setting and if used, 'as written' for the setting they're multi-faceted and can be awesome as antagonists, protagonists, and both at the same time.

Personally I actually love D-bees. The --only-- time I play humans in Rifts is if it's an 'All CS' game, and even then I'd much rather play a dog boy or a Psistalker. lol. Since the rifts core book came out, I can count the number of humans I've played on one hand. Out of literally 100s of char's made and played.

[Blue_Lion]

I love the Ramon Perez art. For me it 'Defines' rifts in my mental images. The stuff he did for the CS was nice. I actually like the FQ armors alot better but the Icons didn't provide a shot I wanted/liked.

I don't 'dislike' the CS. I do end up defending them often from people that either don't have access to all the information I do (Not everyone has invested $100s and 100s like I have to own all the books) Or don't play the CS as written, or mis-represent them. I'm not sure that translates into a 'love of the cs" or me being a "CS Lover". I like them for the setting and if used, 'as written' for the setting they're multi-faceted and can be awesome as antagonists, protagonists, and both at the same time.

Personally I actually love D-bees. The --only-- time I play humans in Rifts is if it's an 'All CS' game, and even then I'd much rather play a dog boy or a Psistalker. lol. Since the rifts core book came out, I can count the number of humans I've played on one hand. Out of literally 100s of char's made and played.

Ok I revise my statement to defender of CS. Is that better?
I will give you that I find the free Quebec body armor has one of the best looks in rifts. (Certainly better than the melted plastic look SoT art got.)
I have a good idea what is the books but this topic is not worth looking up every thing it says on when they started the second phase. I am a little curious as to what the new gear that was hinted at in the aftermath would be like.

[Tor]

You could fight the CS and win with Northern Gun gear even in RMB.

CWC made that harder, but by that time we had Mercs which evened the playing-field again.

These 2 new world bucks are wicked-cool but not necessary to beat the CS.

[Richardson]

( By the way according the CS war book took at least 5 years build up for the CS to outfit there troops with new gear.)

Is that 5 years of production or does that include the research, development, and production spool-up?

--flatline

To be fair the CS has been ramping up literally since Prosek I took power and altered the course of human advancement in the NA forever. R&D is astoundingly faster when you're dealing not only with recovering lost super-tech from ancient bunkers and other cities but an active, profitable, and powerful trade agreement with Triax & the NGR who only barely fell into the Dark Ages to begin with. One of the first things Triax and the CS "traded" to open actual dialogue was a new polymer formula for ceramics (why CS body armor got so much stronger, not to mention limited HUD overlays and exoskeletons a'la Triax), new set of limited AI programming computations (better Skelebots), and several teams of German engineers to update the CS in laser technology and robotics.

Odds are if it weren't for Triax's Golden Age tech (on par with Three Galaxies gear in many/most cases) and willingness to share (I think the CS provided massive quantities of food and several Glitterboys originally in exchange) the CS War Campaign would still have happened but the tech rollout would not have. Just don't kid yourself. SAMAS, Sky Cycles, UAR-1's, and Mark V APCs with a 2 million men with laser rifles would STILL be the strongest human force on the continent by a very wide margin.