What is the population of the Coalition States

[ByzantineBasileus]

The coalition can deploy a navy with 76,000 men, can support three aircraft carriers and can field armies of al least a million men.

So what is their population? How many citizens do they have?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Remember the coalition pulls its military from both the CS cities and the surrounding burbs which aren't counted into the CS citizens population numbers.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sourcebook 1 put the CS population at 14 million humans in 102 PA, with another 10 million or so "non-humans" living in CS territory.
That was before Free Quebec split off, though, and before the CS picked up some more territory in other places.

[jaymz]

Sourcebook 1 put the CS population at 14 million humans in 102 PA, with another 10 million or so "non-humans" living in CS territory.
That was before Free Quebec split off, though, and before the CS picked up some more territory in other places.

The question becomes is that the "offical" population and only includes the "recognizes citizens" of hte Coalition? If so then the actual population numbers of the states could be much higher.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sourcebook 1 put the CS population at 14 million humans in 102 PA, with another 10 million or so "non-humans" living in CS territory.
That was before Free Quebec split off, though, and before the CS picked up some more territory in other places.

The question becomes is that the "offical" population and only includes the "recognizes citizens" of hte Coalition? If so then the actual population numbers of the states could be much higher.

Right.

[Blue_Lion]

Personaly I kinda hate hard population limits. Because you say all there is X. Don't get me wrong I like world info and stuff on cities but I dislike hard number caps. I know one person he had a plan to whipe somethng out with a hard cap of numbers because it was playable he planed to make a PC and die posiably killing others of the same type.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sourcebook 1 put the CS population at 14 million humans in 102 PA, with another 10 million or so "non-humans" living in CS territory.
That was before Free Quebec split off, though, and before the CS picked up some more territory in other places.

I was recently in a discussion about this topic, and I think that it could perhaps use some closer examination.

It's been years since SB1 came out, and the population number has obviously changed.
The CS lost Free Quebec, but they gained some territories as well.
They recruited soldiers from the Burbs... which could alter the population numbers depending on what exactly the "human population" numbers supposed to represent (i.e., do they include all humans, all "true" humans, all CS Citizens, all CS civilians (but not the military), or what?)

If anybody is interested in helping compile a list of citations of CS population numbers from various books, I'd appreciate it.
Especially if we can do it in chronological order and such.

[glitterboy2098]

also, how many ofthose 'non-humans' are dogboys and psistalkers? and does the CS count master psychics as humans? all three of those factor into the military numbers, but might not be counted in the population as human.

[Killer Cyborg]

also, how many ofthose 'non-humans' are dogboys and psistalkers? and does the CS count master psychics as humans? all three of those factor into the military numbers, but might not be counted in the population as human.

SB1 tells us that Dog Boys make up 10% of the "overall population."
In the past, I've simply thought about it as "10% of 14 million is 1.4 million."
But that 14 million is the number of HUMANS, and it wouldn't make sense to say that the Dog Boys made up 10% of the human population.
So a more logical interpretation is that it's 10% of the entire population:
14 million humans
10 million "D-Bees, mutants, and other intelligent non-humans."

The "overall population" would be 24 million, so there would have been 2.4 million Dog Boys in the CS as of 102 PA, "and that number is growing by the day."

Psi-Stalkers and other psychics seem to be considered to be mutants:
SB1 12
Psionic mutants (and all other mutants are forbidden by law to engage in sexual activity with non-psionics/non-mutants

Psychic powers are considered a mutation

People considered psionic mutants include those with minor, major, and master psychic powers, mind melters, bursters, and psi-stalkers. Most of the latter work for the military.

SB1 13
In many respects, psychics and other mutants are second-class citizens...

The psychic population of the CS is listed as 12%, which would mean that of that 24 million overall population, 2.88 million of them would be psychics.
Technically, that could be considered to include the 2.4 million Dog Boys... BUT since Dog Boys are listed separately, and the Psychic Population section seems to be focused on mutants, I would assume that the 2.88 million psychics does not include the Dog Boys.

Which would mean that of the 10 million "D-Bees, mutants, and other intelligent non-humans," 2.4 million would be Dog Boys, and 2.88 million would be psychics.
So 5.28 million of the population would be Dog Boys and other psychics, and 4.72 million would be D-Bees, other mutants, etc.
I'd allow for the possibility (due to vagueness in wording) that some of that 4.72 million "other" might be D-Bees with psychic powers, but there's no way of knowing the percent.

Typing all of this out, I now lean toward assuming that the 14 million humans DOES include the human military, something that I wasn't sure about before.
But since we know that it's unlikely for there to be 2.4 million non-military Dog Boys running around in CS territory, I think it's safe to assume that their population numbers include both civilians and military as a rule.

I still allow for the possibility that the 14 million human population only counts citizens, though, because SB1 13 has the following passage:
D-Bees and Other Mutants
Population: Zero
The Coalition government and sanctioned businesses may hire D-Bees and mutants from time to time, but they are seen as worthless scum or pawns by their human superiors. They can never become citizens of the CS nor are they ever allowed within the city limits of a Coalition city or town. Their presence is barely tolerated in the Burbs.

The emphasis here seems to be that even though we KNOW there are 10 million D-Bees/Mutants/Whatever in the Coalition States, that the CS has an official population of ZERO for this category, due to the fact they cannot become Citizens, nor enter a CS city or town.
So on at least some of the population statistics, we know that they are only counting:
a) citizens
and/or
b) those who dwell in cities and towns.

[glitterboy2098]

so using that take.. the officially recognized population is:
14 million humans
2.4 million dogboys
2.88 million Psychic mutants
4.72 million other human mutants and mutant animals.

[Killer Cyborg]

so using that take.. the officially recognized population is:
14 million humans
2.4 million dogboys
2.88 million Psychic mutants
4.72 million other human mutants and mutant animals.

As of 102 PA, yes.

Although the term "officially recognized" could lead to a semantic argument or two.

[jaymz]

Or a total CS Population of about 21 million all tallied. I can live with that and considering the North American Population at the time of TGC was like north of 500+ million if not significantly higher, I can find that 21 million number very acceptable for me.

[jaymz]

Wait....I think NA is already near 500 million total so maybe pushing 800-1 billion by 2098?

[Kagashi]

in 109 PA (post war SoT), RUE reports:
-Missouri: 225,000 citizens and 50,000 squatters (Not including 138,000 people in Whykin and another 112,000 people in Kingsdale)
-Arkansas/El Dorado: 139,000 in the fort and another 80,000 in the surrounding areas.
-Lone Star: 33,000 citizens and 9,000 dog boys in Lone Star City plus 1,800 "people" in Amarillo, 12,000 "people" in Wichita Falls, and 1300 "people" in Odessa.
-Iron Heart: 700,000 humans, 100,000 nonhumans, and 100,000 "squatters" (so I assume the humans are citizens).
Chi-Town: Iowa: 1.3 Million, Illinois: 2.2 million humans in Chi-Town, 3 million living in the slums and an unspecified number of cities with populations of 150,000 to 240,000 each and unspecified number of towns with 1000-2000 each.

So known numbers of human citizens, not counting squatters, according to RUE is only: 7,692,100. But it is actually higher than that because we have to assume there is at least one additional Chi-Town city with 150,000 one with 240,000 one town with 1000, and one town with 2000 which brings to total to at least 8,085,100, most likely higher but based on this information alone, impossible to calculate. The only mention of dog boys is 9,000, which we know is not accurate, but have nothing else to go off of from RUE alone. I see no mutant population listed at all, but we know they are there.

Free Quebec lists no population other than 60,000 in the ruins of Quebec City.

We can assume the SoT reduced these numbers from the 102 estimates, as well as the loss of Free Quebec which RUE says used to be the number two spot (which means FQ has a population of at least 700,001 humans since Iron Heart is the new number 2).

Rifts Aftermath lists the Chi-Town cities at 200,000-300,000 each and the surrounding burbs of ChiTown proper at 4 million. But otherwise what numbers it does list, they are all about the same as RUE.

[dragonfett]

The population of the USA is around 319 million.

http://www.census.gov/popclock/

[Killer Cyborg]

in 109 PA (post war SoT), RUE reports:
-Missouri: 225,000 citizens and 50,000 squatters (Not including 138,000 people in Whykin and another 112,000 people in Kingsdale)
-Arkansas/El Dorado: 139,000 in the fort and another 80,000 in the surrounding areas.
-Lone Star: 33,000 citizens and 9,000 dog boys in Lone Star City plus 1,800 "people" in Amarillo, 12,000 "people" in Wichita Falls, and 1300 "people" in Odessa.
-Iron Heart: 700,000 humans, 100,000 nonhumans, and 100,000 "squatters" (so I assume the humans are citizens).
Chi-Town: Iowa: 1.3 Million, Illinois: 2.2 million humans in Chi-Town, 3 million living in the slums and an unspecified number of cities with populations of 150,000 to 240,000 each and unspecified number of towns with 1000-2000 each.

So known numbers of human citizens, not counting squatters, according to RUE is only: 7,692,100. But it is actually higher than that because we have to assume there is at least one additional Chi-Town city with 150,000 one with 240,000 one town with 1000, and one town with 2000 which brings to total to at least 8,085,100, most likely higher but based on this information alone, impossible to calculate. The only mention of dog boys is 9,000, which we know is not accurate, but have nothing else to go off of from RUE alone. I see no mutant population listed at all, but we know they are there.

Free Quebec lists no population other than 60,000 in the ruins of Quebec City.

We can assume the SoT reduced these numbers from the 102 estimates, as well as the loss of Free Quebec which RUE says used to be the number two spot (which means FQ has a population of at least 700,001 humans since Iron Heart is the new number 2).

Rifts Aftermath lists the Chi-Town cities at 200,000-300,000 each and the surrounding burbs of ChiTown proper at 4 million. But otherwise what numbers it does list, they are all about the same as RUE.

Nice compilation!

[Tor]

Psi-Stalkers and other psychics seem to be considered to be mutants:
SB1 12
Psionic mutants (and all other mutants are forbidden by law to engage in sexual activity with non-psionics/non-mutants

Psychic powers are considered a mutation

People considered psionic mutants include those with minor, major, and master psychic powers, mind melters, bursters, and psi-stalkers. Most of the latter work for the military.

Wait so... it is actually illegal in the CS territories for...
*Joseph Prosek (CWCp216) to get it on with Lianna Doria (LoneStarPg144)
*Loni Cashbrook (LoneStarPg108) to get it on with Buck Murphy (LoneStarPg116)
*Ivan Kalpov (LoneStarPg110) to get it on with Roger Collins (LoneStarPg114)

Just because the first-mentioned high-ranking officers have no psionics and the second-mentioned parties have minor psionics with a measley 2 powers?

Nice to know that the CS would not even have to discuss literature to arrest Erin Tarn (AfricaPg147) and Victor Lazlo (AfricaPg151) if they were caught in a compromising position together.

We can assume the SoT reduced these numbers from the 102 estimates, as well as the loss of Free Quebec which RUE says used to be the number two spot (which means FQ has a population of at least 700,001 humans since Iron Heart is the new number 2).

I'm not even sure we should assume it has been reduced. The majority of CS deaths in SoT were probably new recruits from the Burbs not even considered part of the CS population, and in their sacrifice they may well have won citizenship for members of their family, which could end up boosting the population with a new crop of avenge-my-parents soldiers.

The FQ loss could be compensated for by the gaining of multiple new states since 102, if I recall.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Remember that when it comes to numbers, Palladium/Rifts often is a case of "The Right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing"

We received a multi page write up on longevity in Lone Star (Average life spans and what not) With reasoning behind each of the numbers given there. Then 17 years later in one of the NG books, there's a section, half a page or so, that tries to give the same thing, but they're radically different, (Shorter) And with out the detailed explinations found in the Lone Star book.

The two weren't just a little off they were radically different and the 'second' more 'recent' numbers did not have pages of details backing them up. It was clearly a case of "Oh. I forgot we already cover this" and was written by a different author who either didn't read the previous book, or had sometime in the preceeding 17 years and forgot the information had already been covered.

So the numbers we're given in SB1, and the difference in Aftermath, may be much of the same thing. if you look at the Aftermath numbers they very much do not seem to take the previous ones in account. Someone was going off the top of their head.

Don't forget the number of -troops- 'around' the city of Chi town and in the 'state' of chi town. It numbers into the 100s of 1000s, for them alone. There's half a million or better if memory serves just there.

And MiF just said that they recruited another million troops in the last few weeks. So what ever numbers we have we add a flat million on top of that with just the MiF book.

[Tor]

I am now wondering if the no-boffing-the-psychics rule might lead to differences in offspring...

what is the chance for minor psionics in 2 non-psi parents' kid versus 2 major-psi parents' kid for example.

Or what if you get married and then later on your spouse learns to become an Operator or uses experimental psi-implants and all of a sudden they are psychic?

If the marriage was legal (does CS even regulate those? I think Joseph II's mom is Karl's wife right?) then would CS still forbid sex between husband and wife based on 1 gaining psi if both were non-psi to begin with?

[The Beast]

I am now wondering if the no-boffing-the-psychics rule might lead to differences in offspring...

what is the chance for minor psionics in 2 non-psi parents' kid versus 2 major-psi parents' kid for example.

Or what if you get married and then later on your spouse learns to become an Operator or uses experimental psi-implants and all of a sudden they are psychic?

If the marriage was legal (does CS even regulate those? I think Joseph II's mom is Karl's wife right?) then would CS still forbid sex between husband and wife based on 1 gaining psi if both were non-psi to begin with?

The CS likely has the most of same type of laws against human-psychics that Nazi-Germany had against Jews prior to WW2, with the notable exception of ones that would permit violence against human-psychics. So a mutant-human wouldn't be able to marry a pure human in the CS.

[Bill]

Maybe, but they're also the kind of people who would attempt a breeding program to supplement the number of loyal psychics at their disposal. Probably a Vanguard project.

[dragonfett]

Maybe, but they're also the kind of people who would attempt a breeding program to supplement the number of loyal psychics at their disposal. Probably a Vanguard project.

I doubt it would be done with any kind of authority or backing by the CS High Command. More likely a pet project of Dr. Bradford (seeing as how he as so little oversight).

[Killer Cyborg]

If the CS have any kind of breeding program for psychics, it'd probably be mentioned in Psyscape or CWC.

[Tor]

It's too top secret, Bradford even kept it from Siembieda.

[Blastaar]

in 109 PA (post war SoT), RUE reports:
-Missouri: 225,000 citizens and 50,000 squatters (Not including 138,000 people in Whykin and another 112,000 people in Kingsdale)
-Arkansas/El Dorado: 139,000 in the fort and another 80,000 in the surrounding areas.
-Lone Star: 33,000 citizens and 9,000 dog boys in Lone Star City plus 1,800 "people" in Amarillo, 12,000 "people" in Wichita Falls, and 1300 "people" in Odessa.
-Iron Heart: 700,000 humans, 100,000 nonhumans, and 100,000 "squatters" (so I assume the humans are citizens).
Chi-Town: Iowa: 1.3 Million, Illinois: 2.2 million humans in Chi-Town, 3 million living in the slums and an unspecified number of cities with populations of 150,000 to 240,000 each and unspecified number of towns with 1000-2000 each.

So known numbers of human citizens, not counting squatters, according to RUE is only: 7,692,100. But it is actually higher than that because we have to assume there is at least one additional Chi-Town city with 150,000 one with 240,000 one town with 1000, and one town with 2000 which brings to total to at least 8,085,100, most likely higher but based on this information alone, impossible to calculate. The only mention of dog boys is 9,000, which we know is not accurate, but have nothing else to go off of from RUE alone. I see no mutant population listed at all, but we know they are there.

Free Quebec lists no population other than 60,000 in the ruins of Quebec City.

We can assume the SoT reduced these numbers from the 102 estimates, as well as the loss of Free Quebec which RUE says used to be the number two spot (which means FQ has a population of at least 700,001 humans since Iron Heart is the new number 2).

Rifts Aftermath lists the Chi-Town cities at 200,000-300,000 each and the surrounding burbs of ChiTown proper at 4 million. But otherwise what numbers it does list, they are all about the same as RUE.

Nice compilation!

but does the lone star numbers take into account fort pinnacle/port houston from the Coalition navy sourcebook 4? I mean it is only 63000 people but RUE does not show this in its accounts

[Kagashi]

in 109 PA (post war SoT), RUE reports:
-Missouri: 225,000 citizens and 50,000 squatters (Not including 138,000 people in Whykin and another 112,000 people in Kingsdale)
-Arkansas/El Dorado: 139,000 in the fort and another 80,000 in the surrounding areas.
-Lone Star: 33,000 citizens and 9,000 dog boys in Lone Star City plus 1,800 "people" in Amarillo, 12,000 "people" in Wichita Falls, and 1300 "people" in Odessa.
-Iron Heart: 700,000 humans, 100,000 nonhumans, and 100,000 "squatters" (so I assume the humans are citizens).
Chi-Town: Iowa: 1.3 Million, Illinois: 2.2 million humans in Chi-Town, 3 million living in the slums and an unspecified number of cities with populations of 150,000 to 240,000 each and unspecified number of towns with 1000-2000 each.

So known numbers of human citizens, not counting squatters, according to RUE is only: 7,692,100. But it is actually higher than that because we have to assume there is at least one additional Chi-Town city with 150,000 one with 240,000 one town with 1000, and one town with 2000 which brings to total to at least 8,085,100, most likely higher but based on this information alone, impossible to calculate. The only mention of dog boys is 9,000, which we know is not accurate, but have nothing else to go off of from RUE alone. I see no mutant population listed at all, but we know they are there.

Free Quebec lists no population other than 60,000 in the ruins of Quebec City.

We can assume the SoT reduced these numbers from the 102 estimates, as well as the loss of Free Quebec which RUE says used to be the number two spot (which means FQ has a population of at least 700,001 humans since Iron Heart is the new number 2).

Rifts Aftermath lists the Chi-Town cities at 200,000-300,000 each and the surrounding burbs of ChiTown proper at 4 million. But otherwise what numbers it does list, they are all about the same as RUE.

Nice compilation!

but does the lone star numbers take into account fort pinnacle/port houston from the Coalition navy sourcebook 4? I mean it is only 63000 people but RUE does not show this in its accounts

Nope, it doesn't. The other thing to consider is, RUE is Erin Tarn's view. She is just a character with an opinion and possibly bad information. Palladium does this to cover any contradictions between book to book. So really, there is no way to tell what the actual population even in. The numbers in RUE are only plausible.

[kaid]

Maybe, but they're also the kind of people who would attempt a breeding program to supplement the number of loyal psychics at their disposal. Probably a Vanguard project.

Yes those laws could easily be not just a don't dirty our pure humans with dirty muty blood but more of a breeding program to force those with psychic abilities to have relations with other psychics to breed stronger ones. The CS has a number of programs to try to force psychic development along lines they need such as nega psychics and psi nullfiers. I am pretty sure if they can figure that trick out they would do whatever is necessary to breed up as many of those for their military as possible.

[Whiskeyjack]

also, how many ofthose 'non-humans' are dogboys and psistalkers? and does the CS count master psychics as humans? all three of those factor into the military numbers, but might not be counted in the population as human.

SB1 tells us that Dog Boys make up 10% of the "overall population."
In the past, I've simply thought about it as "10% of 14 million is 1.4 million."
But that 14 million is the number of HUMANS, and it wouldn't make sense to say that the Dog Boys made up 10% of the human population.
So a more logical interpretation is that it's 10% of the entire population:
14 million humans
10 million "D-Bees, mutants, and other intelligent non-humans."

The "overall population" would be 24 million, so there would have been 2.4 million Dog Boys in the CS as of 102 PA, "and that number is growing by the day."

You can not use the d-bee population for determining the number of dog boys in the CS Army. Unless you are including them in stats for other army numbers as well. Which means you'd have to include d-bees serving in the military as well, which is not the case.

[Killer Cyborg]

also, how many ofthose 'non-humans' are dogboys and psistalkers? and does the CS count master psychics as humans? all three of those factor into the military numbers, but might not be counted in the population as human.

SB1 tells us that Dog Boys make up 10% of the "overall population."
In the past, I've simply thought about it as "10% of 14 million is 1.4 million."
But that 14 million is the number of HUMANS, and it wouldn't make sense to say that the Dog Boys made up 10% of the human population.
So a more logical interpretation is that it's 10% of the entire population:
14 million humans
10 million "D-Bees, mutants, and other intelligent non-humans."

The "overall population" would be 24 million, so there would have been 2.4 million Dog Boys in the CS as of 102 PA, "and that number is growing by the day."

You can not use the d-bee population for determining the number of dog boys in the CS Army. Unless you are including them in stats for other army numbers as well. Which means you'd have to include d-bees serving in the military as well, which is not the case.

The racial makeup of the army doesn't have to be even, and logically wouldn't be.
For example, if 10% of the Confederate States population served in the Confederate army, that wouldn't mean that the 10% had to include any black people, even though there were blacks living in the South at the time.
Likewise, 10% of the Coalition States total population (including D-Bees) could serve in the Coalition army without any D-Bees serving in the army.

Or, to put it another way, let's say that I have 100 M&Ms in a bowl.
20% are green.
20% are red.
20% are brown.
20% are blue.
20% are orange.
If I ate 10% of the total population of M&Ms, I would NOT be obliged in any way to eat 2 of each color of M&M.
I could eat 10 green, if I felt like it, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 5 brown, and 5 red, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 2 green, 2 red, 2 brown, and 4 blue, and that'd be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.

Similarly, if I were to eat 10% of the total CS population of 24 million, I could eat just the 10% that are Dog Boys, or I could eat 10% that are all humans.
It's all still the same percent.

So saying that the "10% of the overall population" that the dog boys make up is referring to the TOTAL population, including both humans and D-Bees, makes sense.

What wouldn't make sense would be to say "10% of the overall human population are dog boys," which is the alternative.

[Killer Cyborg]

BTW, the 2.4 million Dog Boys aren't ALL in the CS military.

SB1 13
90% of the mutant animals are owned and regulated by the government. Only the wealthy and some businesses own mutant animals as either pets, security (watchdogs), or labor. All must be registered and licensed with the government.

[Kagashi]

BTW, the 2.4 million Dog Boys aren't ALL in the CS military.

SB1 13
90% of the mutant animals are owned and regulated by the government. Only the wealthy and some businesses own mutant animals as either pets, security (watchdogs), or labor. All must be registered and licensed with the government.

Id imagine a few would also are free born/feral (unregistered), yet still live within the borders of the Coalition.

[Killer Cyborg]

BTW, the 2.4 million Dog Boys aren't ALL in the CS military.

SB1 13
90% of the mutant animals are owned and regulated by the government. Only the wealthy and some businesses own mutant animals as either pets, security (watchdogs), or labor. All must be registered and licensed with the government.

Id imagine a few would also are free born/feral (unregistered), yet still live within the borders of the Coalition.

Yes.
It's not clear from that passage if those Dog Boys are part of that 10% who aren't "owned and registered by the government" or not.
The passage might mean that 90% of Dog Boys are owned (and registered by the government) OR it might mean that 90% are owned by the government and registered by the government, depending on how one reads it.

[Whiskeyjack]

Or, to put it another way, let's say that I have 100 M&Ms in a bowl.
20% are green.
20% are red.
20% are brown.
20% are blue.
20% are orange.
If I ate 10% of the total population of M&Ms, I would NOT be obliged in any way to eat 2 of each color of M&M.
I could eat 10 green, if I felt like it, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 5 brown, and 5 red, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 2 green, 2 red, 2 brown, and 4 blue, and that'd be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.

Similarly, if I were to eat 10% of the total CS population of 24 million, I could eat just the 10% that are Dog Boys, or I could eat 10% that are all humans.
It's all still the same percent.

So saying that the "10% of the overall population" that the dog boys make up is referring to the TOTAL population, including both humans and D-Bees, makes sense.

What wouldn't make sense would be to say "10% of the overall human population are dog boys," which is the alternative.

Not true. Before snacking on the delicious M&Ms, you would remove the orange ones so as not to contaminate your mouth with dirty D-bee scum, leaving you green, red, brown and blue.
If you used your definition to determine the size of the US Army based on population, you would also be including all illegal aliens in your numbers. So if the US Army makes up 10% of the US population, and you have 1 million illegal aliens, then you automatically have 100,000 more troops in the army, even though the illegal aliens can in no way be a part of the army. That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
Furthermore, I can't believe I'm debating population statics of a fantasy world online.

[eliakon]

Or, to put it another way, let's say that I have 100 M&Ms in a bowl.
20% are green.
20% are red.
20% are brown.
20% are blue.
20% are orange.
If I ate 10% of the total population of M&Ms, I would NOT be obliged in any way to eat 2 of each color of M&M.
I could eat 10 green, if I felt like it, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 5 brown, and 5 red, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 2 green, 2 red, 2 brown, and 4 blue, and that'd be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.

Similarly, if I were to eat 10% of the total CS population of 24 million, I could eat just the 10% that are Dog Boys, or I could eat 10% that are all humans.
It's all still the same percent.

So saying that the "10% of the overall population" that the dog boys make up is referring to the TOTAL population, including both humans and D-Bees, makes sense.

What wouldn't make sense would be to say "10% of the overall human population are dog boys," which is the alternative.

Not true. Before snacking on the delicious M&Ms, you would remove the orange ones so as not to contaminate your mouth with dirty D-bee scum, leaving you green, red, brown and blue.
If you used your definition to determine the size of the US Army based on population, you would also be including all illegal aliens in your numbers. So if the US Army makes up 10% of the US population, and you have 1 million illegal aliens, then you automatically have 100,000 more troops in the army, even though the illegal aliens can in no way be a part of the army. That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
Furthermore, I can't believe I'm debating population statics of a fantasy world online.

If the oranges (or illegal aliens) are being used in the overall population number that your getting a % of then yes.
if the percentage is 10% of the 100 then its 10. If its 10% of the 80 then its 8....but if you ask what is 10% of the bowl and the bowl has 100 then that's the number you use.
If the CS population stat has dbees, or mutants, or anything in it, then the percentages are based on that score...since its a percent of the population as a whole. If the percentage had a limiter that it was a percentage of a sub-set of the population then you would use that subset.
Or put another way, just because 10% of the population is in the military, its not an even distribution, I doubt that there are any 3 month old babies in the army, or 105 year old centarians. Even though there are, presumably such individuals in the population as a whole.

[Lenwen]

BTW, the 2.4 million Dog Boys aren't ALL in the CS military.

SB1 which page? I have been scouring both the old SB1 and the revised / Revamped SB1 .. I can not find this quote. Please share a page ?

[Whiskeyjack]

If the oranges (or illegal aliens) are being used in the overall population number that your getting a % of then yes.
if the percentage is 10% of the 100 then its 10. If its 10% of the 80 then its 8....but if you ask what is 10% of the bowl and the bowl has 100 then that's the number you use.
If the CS population stat has dbees, or mutants, or anything in it, then the percentages are based on that score...since its a percent of the population as a whole. If the percentage had a limiter that it was a percentage of a sub-set of the population then you would use that subset.
Or put another way, just because 10% of the population is in the military, its not an even distribution, I doubt that there are any 3 month old babies in the army, or 105 year old centarians. Even though there are, presumably such individuals in the population as a whole.

That there is where the interpretation comes in. While there would definitely be statistics collected on illegal immigrants, they wouldn't come under the official stats for taxes/infrastructure etc. They don't pay taxes, have a permanent address, don't receive health care etc. They don't "officially" exist.

[Killer Cyborg]

Or, to put it another way, let's say that I have 100 M&Ms in a bowl.
20% are green.
20% are red.
20% are brown.
20% are blue.
20% are orange.
If I ate 10% of the total population of M&Ms, I would NOT be obliged in any way to eat 2 of each color of M&M.
I could eat 10 green, if I felt like it, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 5 brown, and 5 red, and that'd still be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.
Or I could eat 2 green, 2 red, 2 brown, and 4 blue, and that'd be 10% of the total population of M&Ms.

Similarly, if I were to eat 10% of the total CS population of 24 million, I could eat just the 10% that are Dog Boys, or I could eat 10% that are all humans.
It's all still the same percent.

So saying that the "10% of the overall population" that the dog boys make up is referring to the TOTAL population, including both humans and D-Bees, makes sense.

What wouldn't make sense would be to say "10% of the overall human population are dog boys," which is the alternative.

Not true.

Yes true.

Before snacking on the delicious M&Ms, you would remove the orange ones so as not to contaminate your mouth with dirty D-bee scum, leaving you green, red, brown and blue.

No, I wouldn't.

If you used your definition to determine the size of the US Army based on population, you would also be including all illegal aliens in your numbers. So if the US Army makes up 10% of the US population, and you have 1 million illegal aliens, then you automatically have 100,000 more troops in the army, even though the illegal aliens can in no way be a part of the army. That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

I agree that makes no sense whatsoever.

If the statistic "the US army makes up 10% of the US population" was a statistic derived from the total population of the US, including illegals, then the illegals are already factored into the statistic.
If the statistic was derived from the total legal population of the US, then the number of illegals doesn't matter, and doesn't change things.

It's not like somebody somewhere could crunch some numbers, determine that the number of US soldiers is 10% the total US population, then remember that there are illegal immigrants, and decide that there are more soldiers than before.
What would happen is that he'd remember that there are illegals, and that would change the statistic, not the number of soldiers.
So instead of 10% of the total population, it'd b 9% or whatever.

Similarly, if the US total population as 400 million people, and we had a military with 40,000,000 soldiers, then 10% of our population would be in the military.
If we had a sudden influx of millions of LEGAL immigrants, that wouldn't mean that 10% of every new citizen would instantly become a soldier.
What it would mean is that the percentage would change.
We'd have 40,000,000 soldiers still, but that number would represent a smaller percentage of the total.

[Killer Cyborg]

If the oranges (or illegal aliens) are being used in the overall population number that your getting a % of then yes.
if the percentage is 10% of the 100 then its 10. If its 10% of the 80 then its 8....but if you ask what is 10% of the bowl and the bowl has 100 then that's the number you use.
If the CS population stat has dbees, or mutants, or anything in it, then the percentages are based on that score...since its a percent of the population as a whole. If the percentage had a limiter that it was a percentage of a sub-set of the population then you would use that subset.
Or put another way, just because 10% of the population is in the military, its not an even distribution, I doubt that there are any 3 month old babies in the army, or 105 year old centarians. Even though there are, presumably such individuals in the population as a whole.

That there is where the interpretation comes in. While there would definitely be statistics collected on illegal immigrants, they wouldn't come under the official stats for taxes/infrastructure etc. They don't pay taxes, have a permanent address, don't receive health care etc. They don't "officially" exist.

Sounds like you're saying "Because the Coalition doesn't count non-humans in the census, the 'overall population' that the Dog Pack makes up 10% of must be the strictly human population."

[Lenwen]

We can look at it threw the eyes of the CS, (in my opinion, this is how it was ment to be seen taking the entire passage into consideration) or we wave the whole thing away ..

The coalition consider ONLY HUMANS .. as their population. This can not be downplayed or changed in any shape or form by anyone on the baords..

Having that as an irrefutable fact .. We in fact can take 10% of the Coalitions population as thee defining pct, (as it is intended) to be the 10% of which are specifically dogboys.

[Killer Cyborg]

The coalition consider ONLY HUMANS .. as their population.

Gee. I guess the Dog Boys must make up 10% of the ONLY HUMAN population, then.

[Lenwen]

The coalition consider ONLY HUMANS .. as their population.

Gee. I guess the Dog Boys must make up 10% of the ONLY HUMAN population, then.

That text can be taken either way. Literally..

[Killer Cyborg]

The coalition consider ONLY HUMANS .. as their population.

Gee. I guess the Dog Boys must make up 10% of the ONLY HUMAN population, then.

That text can be taken either way. Literally..

I'd say that the way that doesn't count Dog Boys as part of the human population would be the way that makes sense.

[Whiskeyjack]

It's not like somebody somewhere could crunch some numbers, determine that the number of US soldiers is 10% the total US population, then remember that there are illegal immigrants, and decide that there are more soldiers than before.
What would happen is that he'd remember that there are illegals, and that would change the statistic, not the number of soldiers.
So instead of 10% of the total population, it'd b 9% or whatever.

Similarly, if the US total population as 400 million people, and we had a military with 40,000,000 soldiers, then 10% of our population would be in the military.
If we had a sudden influx of millions of LEGAL immigrants, that wouldn't mean that 10% of every new citizen would instantly become a soldier.
What it would mean is that the percentage would change.
We'd have 40,000,000 soldiers still, but that number would represent a smaller percentage of the total.

But that is EXACTLY what you are doing. You're taking a population of 14 million, on which the military would be based, then throwing in 10 million illegal immigrants and boosting the military numbers.
It really makes no difference to me how many dog boys there are. There could be 30 million. I'd never have a use for that number in a campaign. Plus, a book in the near future is going to contradict every other number ever given and start this whole thing over again. And then again. lol. It will never end.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not like somebody somewhere could crunch some numbers, determine that the number of US soldiers is 10% the total US population, then remember that there are illegal immigrants, and decide that there are more soldiers than before.
What would happen is that he'd remember that there are illegals, and that would change the statistic, not the number of soldiers.
So instead of 10% of the total population, it'd b 9% or whatever.

Similarly, if the US total population as 400 million people, and we had a military with 40,000,000 soldiers, then 10% of our population would be in the military.
If we had a sudden influx of millions of LEGAL immigrants, that wouldn't mean that 10% of every new citizen would instantly become a soldier.
What it would mean is that the percentage would change.
We'd have 40,000,000 soldiers still, but that number would represent a smaller percentage of the total.

But that is EXACTLY what you are doing. You're taking a population of 14 million, on which the military would be based, then throwing in 10 million illegal immigrants and boosting the military numbers.

No.
I'm taking the overall population, and looking at 10% of it, because:
a) that's what "overall" means."
"overall population" doesn't mean "strictly human population that the CS looks at in their in-game censuses."
and
b) It's nonsensical to say that Dog Boys make up 10% of the HUMAN population.

And I'm not changing the number of soldiers. I'm trying to determine it.
In your example, you were changing the actual number of soldiers based on changing information.
If I eat 10 red M&Ms from that bowl, then somebody adds 50 green M&Ms to the bowl, I'll still have only eaten 10 red M&Ms.
Just because that was once 10% of the total doesn't mean that the number of M&Ms I've eaten automatically changes with the population of the bowl.

It really makes no difference to me how many dog boys there are. There could be 30 million. I'd never have a use for that number in a campaign.

Completely irrelevant to this conversation.

Plus, a book in the near future is going to contradict every other number ever given and start this whole thing over again. And then again. lol. It will never end.

Haven't seen anything solidly contradict these numbers yet.

[Tor]

Population != Citizens basically? CS-acknowledge-population != Actual-population?

Although, one does wonder where to draw the line, if we include dog boys as part of the population, what's next, rats?

[Lenwen]

The Dog Pack mutant animals account for 10 percent of the CS's overall population and that number is growing by the day. But they are effectively a slave race and not counted among the citzens, and there for not counted as part of the CS's population.

So we know that you in fact can't use anything other then Human's as the 14 million "Coalition total population" as they are thee defacto citizens and not deebee's or mutant animans of any kind or any other none human being as part of the "overall Coalitions Population".

EDIT : You can also negate the 4 million population from Free Quebec now as well .. Since their population does no longer get counted among the "Coalition's overall population" .. Not to mention they even while members of the CS, outlawed creation , an ownership of .. mutant animals of any / all types.

Which brings SB1's Overall coalition Population down to .. 10 million (as of 102 P.A.)

[Killer Cyborg]

The Dog Pack mutant animals account for 10 percent of the CS's overall population and that number is growing by the day. But they are effectively a slave race and not counted among the citzens, and there for not counted as part of the CS's population.

So we know that you in fact can't use anything other then Human's as the 14 million "Coalition total population" as they are thee defacto citizens and not deebee's or mutant animans of any kind or any other none human being as part of the "overall Coalitions Population".

Right.
So instead we'll count the Dog Boys as part of the human population, because dog boys aren't counted by the CS as part of any population.
Then it all makes sense.

Where if you look at the "overall population" of the CS as the 14 million humans + the 10 million non-humans, and count the Dog Boys as part of the overall population, then…
what?
The CS census-takers will get mad…?

EDIT : You can also negate the 4 million population from Free Quebec now as well .. Since their population does no longer get counted among the "Coalition's overall population" .. Not to mention they even while members of the CS, outlawed creation , an ownership of .. mutant animals of any / all types.

You can't reduce the number of red M&Ms by reducing the number of blue M&Ms.

[Killer Cyborg]

Population != Citizens basically? CS-acknowledge-population != Actual-population?

For some reason, people are saying that we need to count the CS population the way that futuristic racists would count it, instead of the way that the guys who wrote the books counted it.

Although, one does wonder where to draw the line, if we include dog boys as part of the population, what's next, rats?

Rats are probably counted in Lone Star.

[Tor]

I'd trade 2 Zenith Moon Warpers for Magali.

[Whiskeyjack]

Where if you look at the "overall population" of the CS as the 14 million humans + the 10 million non-humans, and count the Dog Boys as part of the overall population, then…
what?
The CS census-takers will get mad…?

The problem is, when trying to figure out a number, which one is included makes a MASSIVE difference. If only humans are counted, you're looking at 1.4 million dog boys. If every humanoid creature is counted, then you suddenly have 2.4 million. That is a huge difference. But KS and company have left it up to interpretation as to which way the numbers should be used.