Sub-Demons, who are they?

[Blue_Lion]

Last time a saw a bal-rag be really hard to beat it grabbed a pc then used the PC as a shield to block incoming range attacks. The PC was held off the ground and had trouble escaping the grip. But then the same Gm had a dragon pick up and use a GB as a club.

[SolCannibal]

I do agree with the earlier assertion that Baal-rogs should be a bit more powerful to truly warrant the flavour text "one of the most feared and powerful of all the greater
demons". I personally would like to give them extra levels of fire elemental spells and/or magic weapons just to buff their damage output.

Well, how do they stand up offensively in comparison to Jinns, Rakshasas and other greater demons?

Some things were somewhat...wonky with demons as presented in CB1 - remember how Rakshasas had stats (or at least MDC) worthy of adult dragons? Kind of skewed things considerably overall.

Last time a saw a bal-rag be really hard to beat it grabbed a pc then used the PC as a shield to block incoming range attacks. The PC was held off the ground and had trouble escaping the grip. But then the same Gm had a dragon pick up and use a GB as a club.

Nice and simple use of creativity to skew things for the monster's side from the GM part. Some monsters should ALWAYS try to use underhanded moves and viciousness to turn things around in their favor.

[Blue_Lion]

I do agree with the earlier assertion that Baal-rogs should be a bit more powerful to truly warrant the flavour text "one of the most feared and powerful of all the greater
demons". I personally would like to give them extra levels of fire elemental spells and/or magic weapons just to buff their damage output.

Well, how do they stand up offensively in comparison to Jinns, Rakshasas and other greater demons?

Some things were somewhat...wonky with demons as presented in CB1 - remember how Rakshasas had stats (or at least MDC) worthy of adult dragons? Kind of skewed things considerably overall.

Last time a saw a bal-rag be really hard to beat it grabbed a pc then used the PC as a shield to block incoming range attacks. The PC was held off the ground and had trouble escaping the grip. But then the same Gm had a dragon pick up and use a GB as a club.

Nice and simple use of creativity to skew things for the monster's side from the GM part. Some monsters should ALWAYS try to use underhanded moves and viciousness to turn things around in their favor.

I should point out GB's can make really good clubs even if the pilot does scream allot as you bludgeon his friends.

[SolCannibal]

Last time a saw a bal-rag be really hard to beat it grabbed a pc then used the PC as a shield to block incoming range attacks. The PC was held off the ground and had trouble escaping the grip. But then the same Gm had a dragon pick up and use a GB as a club.

Nice and simple use of creativity to skew things for the monster's side from the GM part. Some monsters should ALWAYS try to use underhanded moves and viciousness to turn things around in their favor.

I should point out GB's can make really good clubs even if the pilot does scream allot as you bludgeon his friends.

Most certainly a bonus from the Baal-rog's point of view - almost music to its ears.

One could make a killer sell offering "singing hostage truncheons" as novelty weaponry items in many fronts of the Minion War!

[Blue_Lion]

Last time a saw a bal-rag be really hard to beat it grabbed a pc then used the PC as a shield to block incoming range attacks. The PC was held off the ground and had trouble escaping the grip. But then the same Gm had a dragon pick up and use a GB as a club.

Nice and simple use of creativity to skew things for the monster's side from the GM part. Some monsters should ALWAYS try to use underhanded moves and viciousness to turn things around in their favor.

I should point out GB's can make really good clubs even if the pilot does scream allot as you bludgeon his friends.

Most certainly a bonus from the Baal-rog's point of view - almost music to its ears.

One could make a killer sell offering "singing hostage truncheons" as novelty weaponry items in many fronts of the Minion War!

The GB club was a dragon not a baal-rog.

[SolCannibal]

Last time a saw a bal-rag be really hard to beat it grabbed a pc then used the PC as a shield to block incoming range attacks. The PC was held off the ground and had trouble escaping the grip. But then the same Gm had a dragon pick up and use a GB as a club.

Nice and simple use of creativity to skew things for the monster's side from the GM part. Some monsters should ALWAYS try to use underhanded moves and viciousness to turn things around in their favor.

I should point out GB's can make really good clubs even if the pilot does scream allot as you bludgeon his friends.

Most certainly a bonus from the Baal-rog's point of view - almost music to its ears.

One could make a killer sell offering "singing hostage truncheons" as novelty weaponry items in many fronts of the Minion War!

The GB club was a dragon not a baal-rog.

Oh yeah, sorry - but more Baal-rogs would probably enjoy the experience of doing it than dragons.

[Subjugator]

HA! GBs are okay clubs, but the the best club was CBGBs!



/Sub

[eliakon]

I just take that to mean not all demons are immortals, and there's never really a consistent natural ability they all have to have.

We are told a lot that sub-demons are not true demons so if something says demon I figure they are lesser or greater.

Except that we are not. The 'sub-demon' label is thrown around a lot for a lot of things.
Gargoyles are "although considered to be demons" Which in itself is fairly vague (there is a lot of wiggle room in Palladium on what a DEMON is, just look at the Rifts Russia, and Rifts China 1 books!)
The problem with a strict definition of what is or is not a sub-demon is that there appear to be multiple definitions going at once. (I know this is a huge surprise). I have found
-Sub-Demons are just misidentified supernatural beings
-Sub-Demons are the weakest of the weak of demon kind
-Sub-Demons are the Neanderthal of demon kind
-Sub-Demons are a political/social class amongst demon kind.
Since it would take some pretty convoluted mental gymnastics to make all of these definitions all be true at the same time....It makes me think that there are instead different definitions at work.

[Blue_Lion]

Maybe they case by case basis.

[Subjugator]

What I'm wondering is if gargoyles and brodkil are hurt by anti-demon weapons.

[eliakon]

What I'm wondering is if gargoyles and brodkil are hurt by anti-demon weapons.

Maybe?
I would personally say yes. They are demons, of a sort, and thus hurt. But it is one of those grey areas where the GM is going to have to make a call.

[Kagashi]

What I'm wondering is if gargoyles and brodkil are hurt by anti-demon weapons.

Maybe?
I would personally say yes. They are demons, of a sort, and thus hurt. But it is one of those grey areas where the GM is going to have to make a call.

Yes. Sub-demons are still demons, just another category within the same group.

[SolCannibal]

I just take that to mean not all demons are immortals, and there's never really a consistent natural ability they all have to have.

We are told a lot that sub-demons are not true demons so if something says demon I figure they are lesser or greater.

Except that we are not. The 'sub-demon' label is thrown around a lot for a lot of things.
Gargoyles are "although considered to be demons" Which in itself is fairly vague (there is a lot of wiggle room in Palladium on what a DEMON is, just look at the Rifts Russia, and Rifts China 1 books!)
The problem with a strict definition of what is or is not a sub-demon is that there appear to be multiple definitions going at once. (I know this is a huge surprise). I have found
-Sub-Demons are just misidentified supernatural beings
-Sub-Demons are the weakest of the weak of demon kind
-Sub-Demons are the Neanderthal of demon kind
-Sub-Demons are a political/social class amongst demon kind.
Since it would take some pretty convoluted mental gymnastics to make all of these definitions all be true at the same time....It makes me think that there are instead different definitions at work.

Yes, but most definitions don't have to be mutually exclusive and some meanings can just as easily be extrapolation or corruption of others - languages are like that, developing new meanings and twisting old ones as time goes on.

It starts from a shorthand for "supernatural beings misidentified as demons" and then changes/devolves into a "not true demons" cultural construct or vice-versa. That label/pejorative meaning then easily covers the "weakest of the weak" and "crude caveman" definitions and may (or not) be extended to some political/social class amongst demonkind (usually "foreigners" or "vassals" mixed with a bit of the previous two, if the books on Hades and Dyval are any indication).

Overall i'm starting to get the idea that subdemon has more relevance and use as an IC term originated between Rifts Earth rogue scholars, occultists and magicians, then adopted by some monsters through those turned minions by same magicians than as anything of OoC or mechanic use. The point is for the definition to be loose and let blatant adjustment on each individual GM's part with some doubt, discussion and misuse IC, speciallly IC in fact.

Some thoughts and impressions on the issue so far.

[Tor]

We can let stuff like 'most feared' slide, since that could simply be due to being the most well-known greater demon due to larger numbers. If people UNDERSTOOD something like a Locust or Raksasha they might come to fear it more than the Baalrog, but few would be that informed.

As for 'most powerful', that is a little more blatent. There are a lot of ways to measure power, for all we know it refers to brute physical strength as opposed to deadliness?

In terms of comparison, it would be interesting to think of a tactical matchup for average greaters.

What greater demon are we thinking will beat the Baalrog here?

[SolCannibal]

We can let stuff like 'most feared' slide, since that could simply be due to being the most well-known greater demon due to larger numbers. If people UNDERSTOOD something like a Locust or Raksasha they might come to fear it more than the Baalrog, but few would be that informed.

The Rakshasa are a peculiar case, as shown by the fact they got something of a power down in the Hades book - as presented in CB1 they were near matches for the demon lords themselves. But i can agree with your "most feared - most well-known greater demon" point, as demon locusts should not be well-known considering the greater part of them spend most of their time sleeping close to Modeus palace and maggots spend as much time in Hades subterraneans as in any other region of the realm.

And yeah, making a rundown of all greaters offensive capabilities could be fun reference material indeed.

[Tor]

Considering Raksasha can be summoners, the power-down isn't that bad for them since they can just boss around magots/balrogs if need be.

[SolCannibal]

Considering Raksasha can be summoners, the power-down isn't that bad for them since they can just boss around magots/balrogs if need be.

Yup, but then indirect might works well with them.

[SolCannibal]

Here i come exhuming this corpse again... but it's for a good reason, i felt bad about making a new thread just to comment on related stuff.

Sometime ago i commented on how a bunch of monstrosities in the old Conversion Book (Banshee, Boschala, Dybbuk, Dimensional & Grave Ghouls, Dar'ota, Gremlins, Mindolar, Sowki and Death Weaver Spider Demons) kind of fit in a sort of "diabolic but not quite" conceptual terrain and might make good candidates "infernal agents/minions/rival powers" depending on one's ideas and combinations.

Well, while randomly perusing at exactly same book just this week i was utterly flabbergasted by finding out that for all those years i had somehow forgotten - if not completely missed - this:

Protection from Devils: Double saving throw to +6 and will hold at bay dar'ota, malignous, deevils, devilkins, and fiends.
The PF original is a little clearer than the CB1 version in meaning (it's more correctly written "Protection from Deevils" for starters) though there's also room for confusion (beings from the plane of Hel). The text also tells us "Lesser Deevils cannot even come within 10 feet (3 m) of it, but greater beings, including the Dar'ota and Malignous, can step right up to the outer edge of the circle and even attempt to enter the circle!" what seems to imply they count as greater deevils, at least for matters of circle magic use in the Palladium World (the blurb in CB1 might be interpreted to mean that is not the case for them on Rifts Earth, what in itself can be interesting).


Protection from Demons: Double saving throw to +6 and will hold at bay banshees, boschala, dybbuk, demon spiders, gargoyles, ghouls, hell hounds, and the lesser minions of Hades.
Again, the PF version is more informative, telling us "All supernatural creatures known to be members of the Demon pantheon/family or living in the planes of Hades, including gargoyles, gurgoyles, gargoylites and dimensional ghouls", what adds some detail (not all ghouls count for the circle), gives something of an interesting rationale for Gargoyles being affected that opens room for much GM tinkering (Other beings serving Hades or living in that dimension would also be blocked by this circle? May Gargoyles from other places, like Atlantis or Gargoyle Empire be unnaffected? Planes, as in plural, several planes making up Hades?), while still leaving the question of the Boschala, Dybbuk, hell hounds and Death Weaver Spider Demons up in the air for one to tinker with (are they exiles or minions of long fallen lords, natives of these "other planes of Hades", or simply distant "relatives" too independent to swear fealty to Modeus and his ilk?).
PS: As nothing in particular is said otherwise (unlike with the Dar'ota or Malignous), i would guess they all count as lesser/sub-demons everywhere.


Protection from Evil: Includes golems, gremlins, sowki, goqua and mindolar.
The PF version is very straightforward indeed "This circle is broadly encompassing and prevents any creatures of an evil alignment, human or non-human, from entering the circle. It does not include animals, even predators hunting for food like a lion or tiger. The saving throw is low because of the broad spectrum of this circle." What makes the special mention of the beings above somewhat head-scratching to say the least: does it mean they are possessed of some quality that make them count as evil even when of a completely different alignement? And aren't golems automata, why would they count as "inherently evil"? Again, pretty peculiar stuff that opens room for some idiosyncratic looks into possible magical particularities of Rifts Earth in relation to other worlds & dimensions.


And to close the rundown, this curious bit.
Protection from the Jinn: The Jinn cannot enter the magic circle. Characters within the circle are +6 to save against any magic or psionic attacks leveled against them by these beings.

This one (like a bunch of others i did not check) is not from CB1, but straight from PF and so might point out to peculiarities of the history of magic and the supernatural in the world of Palladium and caught my attention for two particular reasons:

1) They got a protection circle of their own, separate from other Demons and supernatural creatures living in Hades. In fact while Protection from Demons uses the power words Acba yin Pein or to put it simply "power/energy... of... demon" the power words for Protection from the Jinn are Pein yin Erva yin Ya-ahk-met, that would read as "demon.... of.... Old One Death/Darkness... and/or/of .... Old One Power/Light", what seems to point to ties between them and either Erva or Ya-ahk-met, if not both Old Ones. Considering the Dimension of Hades with its parallels to the Palladium World might be a creation or at least other domain of the Old Ones, it could be infered to mean the Jinn are some of the original inhabitants of that realm, even before the others, or that they followed some other authority, at least for a time - hey, doesn't Rifts Africa say something about at least part of them being bound by Thoth to serving Set?

2) AFAIK, all other circles of protection or summoning seem to involve multiple races or classes of beings, supernatural or not, in the groupings they are geared to affect, making "protection against that one and only race" sound like an overly specific tool for one to work with. Could it perhaps mean the elemental separation of Jinns has more to it than mere visuals, or at some point in the past of the Palladium there existed a "Jinn family/pantheon" that was a major threat for summoners and other magicians of that world to account for?

That combined with possible ties to the above mentioned Old Ones (Erva, symbol of death & darkness and Ya-ahk-met, symbol of power & light) opens space for one to come up with "lost races", customizations and some weird expansions to that particular demon race. Lots of great stuff to mine and tinker with, i dare say.

And those are my thoughts and musings after re-reading some of the Diabolist/Summoner tidbits. Most engrossing indeed and shows I really need to separate some time to give it some proper attention and reading. Hope it was worth your time too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

To the Protection from Jinn circle, in Palladium Fantasy First Edition, Jinn were the children of demons and deevals breeding with each-other.

as for being a threat, they are remarkably powerful, also recall that the curse Thoth put on them requires them to grant 3 wishes of anyone who successfully traps them somehow. "Wishes" in this case being going out and doing things to get the desired result (Wishing someone to come back to life could result in the Jinn going and stealing a scroll of Restore life, wishing for Riches results in the jinn stealing a lot of treasure).

This curse itself would be plenty of cause for powerful Alchemists and kings to want a specific protection from them. after all, asking for a Kings Ransom as a misguided Wish could very well result in the Jinn scheming to littearlly hold a king for ransom! Other wishes that can't be granted from the Jinn's native magic requiring them to steal/threaten/blackmail/what have you from someone who does have sufficent magic, so alchemists would not simply be selling circles of protection from Jinn, but almost certainly requiring them just to stop Jinn from trying to steal their magical goods at the ill timed behest of some overly-clever adventuer or street rat.

Also, yes, 1/3 of all Jinn were cursed to serve Set by Thoth. why is not known. Not even if the curse was meant to punish the Jinn or Set.

Note that both curses were by Thoth and overlap: namely, ALL jinn must serve as master one who traps them until they grant 3 wishes, and additionally 1/3 of them are cursed to serve Set until such a time as someone else traps them and becomes their master (once three wishes are granted they go back to serving Set)

[Axelmania]

the typical gargoyle grunt is not much behind a godling in physical capabilities

Godlings come in a smaller package and have much better healing.

how can the NGR to stand to a horde of beings where your average grunt is a near match to the average godling and numbering in the millions without being ran over.

Superior mobility/speed I figure allows the NGR to outnumber their foes, concentrate firepower to kill (preventing the healing advantage) and keep at long range (preventing the melee advantage)

The PF original is a little clearer than the CB1 version in meaning (it's more correctly written "Protection from Deevils" for starters)

The CB version 'from Devils' was correct because that's what they were called in the Palladium RPG it was converting. The Devils>Deevils didn't come about until Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition, whose associated CB would be the revised.

greater beings, including the Dar'ota and Malignous, can step right up to the outer edge of the circle and even attempt to enter the circle!" what seems to imply they count as greater deevils, at least for matters of circle magic use in the Palladium World (the blurb in CB1 might be interpreted to mean that is not the case for them on Rifts Earth, what in itself can be interesting).

I'd just say that Dar'ota and Malignous qualify as the new Greater Deevils (in spite of not being from Dyval). Sort of in a megaversal sense like how not all Greater Demons are from Hades. Dropping the E is hipper than dropping the Bane.

aren't golems automata, why would they count as "inherently evil"? Again, pretty peculiar stuff that opens room for some idiosyncratic looks into possible magical particularities of Rifts Earth in relation to other worlds & dimensions.

This just proves the CS is right about magic. No such thing as a good or selfish golem, they are all evil.

To the Protection from Jinn circle, in Palladium Fantasy First Edition, Jinn were the children of demons and deevals breeding with each-other, and thus not wholely demons or deevils, requiring their own circle sinse they are mystically both and neither.

I don't recall anything in the 1st ed about greater demon circles not protecting against them. I saw it as an added vulnerability not a replacement vulnerability.

[SolCannibal]

To the Protection from Jinn circle, in Palladium Fantasy First Edition, Jinn were the children of demons and deevals breeding with each-other, and thus not wholely demons or deevils, requiring their own circle sinse they are mystically both and neither.

as for being a threat, they are remarkably powerful, also recall that the curse Thoth put on them requires them to grant 3 wishes of anyone who successfully traps them somehow. "Wishes" in this case being going out and doing things to get the desired result (Wishing someone to come back to life could result in the Jinn going and stealing a scroll of Restore life, wishing for Riches results in the jinn stealing a lot of treasure).

Yes, you commented on that in another topic, "demonic adversaries", for what i'm thankful, as it does explains one big thing - reason for there being a specific circle of protection against them, as both separate from demons and a class/family of monsters instead of "just" one race - while leaving one or two up for grabs. Like when & how did they join the ranks of Hades or why is the power word related to demons, but not the one related to deevils, used in the protection circle, though i guess there's a chance both things are somehow related (the circle being made to both restrict their actions and condition in them the idea of an authority/tie to the forces of Hades).

This curse itself would be plenty of cause for powerful Alchemists and kings to want a specific protection from them. after all, asking for a Kings Ransom as a misguided Wish could very well result in the Jinn scheming to littearlly hold a king for ransom! Other wishes that can't be granted from the Jinn's native magic requiring them to steal/threaten/blackmail/what have you from someone who does have sufficent magic, so alchemists would not simply be selling circles of protection from Jinn, but almost certainly requiring them just to stop Jinn from trying to steal their magical goods at the ill timed behest of some overly-clever adventuer or street rat.

Also, yes, 1/3 of all Jinn were cursed to serve Set by Thoth. why is not known. Not even if the curse was meant to punish the Jinn or Set.

I think their write-up in Rifts Africa does mention the curse was meant by Thoth to punish them, without thinking on how it would benefit Set in the long run. In Thoth's defense, it might have been even before Set turned against his brother and the pantheon as a whole.

the typical gargoyle grunt is not much behind a godling in physical capabilities

Godlings come in a smaller package and have much better healing.

True, but far from a game changer. Gargoyles are still far more numerous AND that is just commenting on the grunts, not the Mages or Lords. Besides, my point is not matching the Godling per se, but how by the simple fact of being comparable to them they are already much better of than basically all lesser demons races and maybe a greater or two.

The PF original is a little clearer than the CB1 version in meaning (it's more correctly written "Protection from Deevils" for starters)

The CB version 'from Devils' was correct because that's what they were called in the Palladium RPG it was converting. The Devils>Deevils didn't come about until Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition, whose associated CB would be the revised.

Yes, you're quite correct in that, the "update" from devils to Deevils happened somewhere between CB1 (where the term is used, but for just one race of Dyval natives instead of all) and 2nd ed PF.

greater beings, including the Dar'ota and Malignous, can step right up to the outer edge of the circle and even attempt to enter the circle!" what seems to imply they count as greater deevils, at least for matters of circle magic use in the Palladium World (the blurb in CB1 might be interpreted to mean that is not the case for them on Rifts Earth, what in itself can be interesting).

I'd just say that Dar'ota and Malignous qualify as the new Greater Deevils (in spite of not being from Dyval). Sort of in a megaversal sense like how not all Greater Demons are from Hades. Dropping the E is hipper than dropping the Bane.

There are two reasons i do not go wholy for this:
1) The circles work slightly differently in the books, the CB1 version not giving the the Dar'ota and Malignous that option.
2) All things aside, the Dar'ota are quite weak as such beings go, sitting very much into the "lesser" scale, while the Malignous is pretty much animalistic in most respects, with good MDC i'll admit, but pretty much only that in its favor.

To be clear, i'm quite ok with considering either species Deevils of their own - in fact i very much appreciate the idea of there being non-Dyval deevils - it's just the "greater" part i have something of a quibble with.

[Axelmania]

Gargoyles are still far more numerous AND that is just commenting on the grunts, not the Mages or Lords. Besides, my point is not matching the Godling per se, but how by the simple fact of being comparable to them they are already much better of than basically all lesser demons races and maybe a greater or two.

Care to make a "Gargoyles vs Demons" thread to put that to the test? I'd like to pit an average gargoyle against an average demon (your picks) to see how they'd fare under ideal use of their abilities.

1) The circles work slightly differently in the books, the CB1 version not giving the the Dar'ota and Malignous that option.

I see that more as CB1 was directly converting the PRPG version which did not have Beyond the Supernatural considerations, while Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition was written with other games like Beyond the Supernatural and Nightbane in mind, which is why it contains references to beings from these games.

The conversion book notes are about how the PRPG circles function in Rifts, now how the PF2 ones do.

I don't have CBrevised on hand to check if they made any changes, but I wouldn't nerf the new PPE circles from PF2 in Rifts just because the CB wasn't updated properly.

2) All things aside, the Dar'ota are quite weak as such beings go, sitting very much into the "lesser" scale

If I recall, the original conversion book actually said the Succubus/Incubus of Hades were actually the Dar'ota. Them being a Devil who serves a similar role as the In/Suc -cubi of Hades is more interesting though.

To be clear, i'm quite ok with considering either species Deevils of their own - in fact i very much appreciate the idea of there being non-Dyval deevils - it's just the "greater" part i have something of a quibble with.

I prefer non-Dyval devils, if they wanted to appropriate 'Deevil' to refer to a class of beings they should have renamed the specific Deevil species to something else.

[SolCannibal]

Gargoyles are still far more numerous AND that is just commenting on the grunts, not the Mages or Lords. Besides, my point is not matching the Godling per se, but how by the simple fact of being comparable to them they are already much better of than basically all lesser demons races and maybe a greater or two.

Care to make a "Gargoyles vs Demons" thread to put that to the test? I'd like to pit an average gargoyle against an average demon (your picks) to see how they'd fare under ideal use of their abilities.

The Department of Redundant Redundancy Department took care of this subject previously, repeatedly, so no.

1) The circles work slightly differently in the books, the CB1 version not giving the the Dar'ota and Malignous that option.

I see that more as CB1 was directly converting the PRPG version which did not have Beyond the Supernatural considerations, while Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition was written with other games like Beyond the Supernatural and Nightbane in mind, which is why it contains references to beings from these games.

The conversion book notes are about how the PRPG circles function in Rifts, now how the PF2 ones do.

I don't have CBrevised on hand to check if they made any changes, but I wouldn't nerf the new PPE circles from PF2 in Rifts just because the CB wasn't updated properly.

Uh, my point was wholy about these circles working differently in the Conversion Book, that treats the Dar'ota and Malignous as no better than lesser deevils for the sake of the protection circles, unlike the PF ones? And i just checked "updated" versions of the diabolist and summoner Dark Conversions, the texts for protection from Demons, Devils, and Evil respectively remains the same as in the old CB1.

2) All things aside, the Dar'ota are quite weak as such beings go, sitting very much into the "lesser" scale

If I recall, the original conversion book actually said the Succubus/Incubus of Hades were actually the Dar'ota. Them being a Devil who serves a similar role as the In/Suc -cubi of Hades is more interesting though.

Nope, it doesn't. The most it does is saying "the incubus and succubus, also known as the Dar'ota", something that, being unfamiliar with PF lore specially from 1st edition, gave me the impression for years of the Dar'ota as a genderless race of shapechanging supernatural predators that inspired the legends about incubi & succubi and that the version in the DB: Hades were a later retcon.

To be clear, i'm quite ok with considering either species Deevils of their own - in fact i very much appreciate the idea of there being non-Dyval deevils - it's just the "greater" part i have something of a quibble with.

I prefer non-Dyval devils, if they wanted to appropriate 'Deevil' to refer to a class of beings they should have renamed the specific Deevil species to something else.

"Demons" gets used for lots of beings with little to no relation to the realm of Hades (also something of a misnomer in that it has no relation to the greek god), so personally i don't care overly much about presence or absence of the aditional 'e' as much as for the matter of 'infernal hosts' not tied to either dimension, while at the same time manifesting some vague and unexplained relation to some of them.

[Axelmania]

I think this is merely a case of lazy editing in Dark Conversions where they simply reprinted the conversions from the original Conversion Book rather than converting the Palladium Fantasy Second Edition ones.

DC basically summarizes things so we can just consider it to have left out those new details. Circles generally do not grow weaker when they come to Rifts.

[SolCannibal]

I think this is merely a case of lazy editing in Dark Conversions where they simply reprinted the conversions from the original Conversion Book rather than converting the Palladium Fantasy Second Edition ones.

There's that for certain - the text does seem to have been replicated verbatim (even the outdated "devils" part) but then neither do i have 1st edition to speak of any text differences between it and its 2nd edition version.

DC basically summarizes things so we can just consider it to have left out those new details. Circles generally do not grow weaker when they come to Rifts.

And they did not. The fact CB1 and DC treat the Malignous and Dar'ota as lesser devils instead of greater (who are able to approach and even challenge a circle of protection) would imply those circles are more powerful in the degree of defense they provide in Rifts Earth.

[Axelmania]

I was under the impression that the group of beings kept 10 feet away could still enter if they passed a savings throw.

PF2 page 139 does describe Dar/Mal as greater beings in contrast to Lesser Deevils...
Page 146 lists them and Dimensional Ghouls as summonable via the Lesser circle though.

The "at bay" on page 50 of the conversion book might simply refer to the circle barrier farther than tn feet beyond.

Certain my confusing since it lists Dar/Mal alongside Deevil/Devilkin/Fiend who are all lesser but it wouldn't necessarily mean equally.

Archfiends weren't mentioned but in PRPG page 115 the original circles did not distinguish between lesser and greater. The 10ft thing for lesser seems like a last minutes minutes add to PF2 since they didn't even keep sttaight who is lesser or greater since the protrction/summon adjectives do not match up.