Demons & Deevils outside the Minion War

[SolCannibal]

Hi people, while reading the Dyval Dimension Book today, a fragment in the first pages got my attention.

Whether it be instinct and nature, or countless millennia of hatred and rivalry, all demons - the demons of Hades in particular, regard Deevils/Dyvalians as their natural enemies and rivals.

What other demon groups exist that are unconnected to Hades? Most other bands i can remember are either the agents of certain deities (Yama Kings, the servants of Ahriman) or "minor" stuff like the Calgary kingdom.

Also, the Deevils/Dyvalians divide got my curiosity - are there any evil supernatural beings native of Dyval for whom is made a major point of not being Deevils, or some other realm/society of Deevils that make a big deal of not being natives of Dyval? I can think of none right now, but the possibility got my attention.

However, most archaic demons and other demonic powers will stay out of the conflict, unless forced into the fray, or out of their own rivalry and/or hatred and jealousy of the powerful Hades Demons.

Now going for my main question: what other demonic powers have we heard of? I could also ask why "archaic" demons were mentioned - are the natives of Hades and Dyval supposed to be somehow more "modern" than their less known counterparts or reference to a sudden proliferation of more modern demonic powers - but i guess things are vague enough as is.

Anyone care to help out on this?

[Mercdog]

IIRC, the demons of Russia are considered archaic, or simply of an 'older' breed than those of Hades.

IMO, if you consider how vast the megaverse is, there are likely untold thousands of different 'breeds' of demonic entities beyond those of which we have knowledge of through the books. Countless dimensions means countless netherworlds after all.

[Long Shadow]

Just from Chaos Earth, you've got Day demons, Night demons and Chaos demons. Night bane has their own brand of demons too. ( can't remember their name ATM)

[Armorlord]

Besides those mentioned, there are also Chaos Demons like those seen the Phase Demon, and the most of the demons in Creatures of Chaos. Then there are Apocalypse Demons, also mentioned in Creatures of Chaos and I think the Four Horsemen fell into that category as well.

(Dang! Long Shadow beat me to the Chaos Demons, and I had forgotten the Day/Night ones.)

[SolCannibal]

Old Ones? I would think they fit on a whole different scale, creating demonic/infernal races in the long-forgotten past as tools and servants, but not quite part of them. And the Yama Kings with their (renegade) connection to the Celestial Bureaucracy & stuff kind of fit the role of "pantheon agents". My thoughts at least.

Johnnycat93, the Thorn Head, Black Fairy and "demon guy in the Black Forest"? I would like to check them.

Mercdog, i'll check out Mystic Russia, thanks for pointing it out. And yes, i guessed there could be a boatload of unamed realms, just wished to check out things before going for the Megaverse Builder.

Longshadow, Armorlord, thanks for remembering me of the Chaos Earth stuff - and indeed, the Nightlords and their servants could be some peculiar group of paranoid, conquering & isolationist demonic lords. Their tendency to tweak an invaded world's ambient PPE to a certain level seems to point out to some sort of fear of high-level competition.

I was looking more for ideas to play up in the making of other infernal realms to exploit/be exploited in the Minion War, but who knows, maybe some of those races or individuals - just remembered Hyrr'Klean/Hercules the Destroyer and Myrroo-kee/Mamers and others from Pantheons of Megaverse - might offer some fun ideas.

[SolCannibal]

Old Ones? I would think they fit on a whole different scale, creating demonic/infernal races in the long-forgotten past as tools and servants, but not quite part of them. And the Yama Kings with their (renegade) connection to the Celestial Bureaucracy & stuff kind of fit the role of "pantheon agents". My thoughts at least.

Johnnycat93, the Thorn Head, Black Fairy and "demon guy in the Black Forest"?

Thorn Head Demon and Black Fairy out of source book 1, i recall that they have no affiliation with normal demons.

Thanks.

Struwwelpeter
"An unknown Greater Supernatural Being, possibly a unique creature unto himself or an ancient, archaic Chaos Demon Lord"

That name got some coke through my nose - i LOLed anyway. Trying hard - and failing - not to think of the Grinch in Rifts.

Triax 2, right? Got to check it out.

[cornholioprime]

Hi people, while reading the Dyval Dimension Book today, a fragment in the first pages got my attention.

[i]Whether it be instinct and nature, or countless millennia of hatred and rivalry, all demons - the demons of Hades in particular, regard Deevils/Dyvalians as their natural enemies and rivals.

What other demon groups exist that are unconnected to Hades?

Most other bands i can remember are either the agents of certain deities (Yama Kings, the servants of Ahriman) or "minor" stuff like the Calgary kingdom.

These "Non-Hades/Dyval-affiliated" demon groupings far outnumber the comparatively limited numbers of Demons and Deevils in the Megaverse.

HOWEVER, perhaps it is incorrect to use the word "groupings" when referring to most other demonic beings; most such beings are lone agents 'out in the field,' and not tied down to any one master or place in particular.

Also, the Deevils/Dyvalians divide got my curiosity - are there any evil supernatural beings native of Dyval for whom is made a major point of not being Deevils, or some other realm/society of Deevils that make a big deal of not being natives of Dyval? I can think of none right now, but the possibility got my attention.

Both Demons and Deevils have various types of lesser minions, native to their respective realms, who aren't classified as being members of either (but who might possibly try to achieve such status by proving their worth across the long eons).

The Cryxon of Dyval is one example.
The Gargoyles of Hades might very well be another (no one is absolutely sure that they actually originate in Hades, but they are believed to be from there).

I could also ask why "archaic" demons were mentioned - are the natives of Hades and Dyval supposed to be somehow more "modern" than their less known counterparts or reference to a sudden proliferation of more modern demonic powers - but i guess things are vague enough as is.

Anyone care to help out on this?

The "archaic" in the term "archaic demons" means, of course, demons that are, as a 'species,' older than the ones in Hades.

Actually, this isn't really all that surprising....since the Palladium Dimension, and by extension, the pocket dimension of Dyval, is "only" a few millions to tens of millions of years old, if the Tristine Chronicles are to be believed; whereas most of the rest of the Megaverse is probably about 13 to 15 billion years old.

Those Chronicles strongly imply that the Old Ones came to that dimensional void from Somewhere Else (they, themselves, are implied to have always existed), and created the planet Palladium, its sub-dimensional mirror world Hades, and Dyval, then created the Deevils and Demons as a sort of almost inexhaustible fighting force of "built evil from the ground up" soldiers to take on the Forces of Light.

[SolCannibal]

I can see your points cornholioprime, truth be told, it's what i guessed the text meant, but wished to get some extra input in how other people might see the matter of those "neutral demons" from neither of the two realms. The Yama Kings and the Asuras (nemeses of the Indian deities, described in Pantheons of the Megaverse) seem to be the closest to competing "hell realms" i can remember from the books.

So i basically created the topic to see with other peoples other directions one might stretch things - bringing other "hell realms" to the table, exploring the possibilities in demonic races or places both "archaic" or "modern", splinter societies of the two groups involved in the war, among other things.

Any thoughts on that?

The stuff about Dyval and Hades mutual connections to the origins of the world of Palladium is very interesting indeed. It brings the question of what the Old Ones had in mind for them - or if they served the same basic role for different masters/makers. The Oni from Rifts Japan and Russian demons from Mystic Russia make up other separate demon races but seem to be much more primitive in matters of society, though less so than the Daemonix from the Siege on Tolkeen books and the matter of their origins a complete mistery.

[Anthar]

No one has mentioned the Red Flame Demons or the Nightlords yet, tsk, tsk.

[SolCannibal]

No one has mentioned the Red Flame Demons or the Nightlords yet, tsk, tsk.

The Nightlords and their forces as a whole were mentioned in a previous post, of that i'm pretty sure.

[Anthar]

No one has mentioned the Red Flame Demons or the Nightlords yet, tsk, tsk.

The Nightlords and their forces as a whole were mentioned in a previous post, of that i'm pretty sure.

Not by name they weren't.

[SolCannibal]

Oh, RLY?

Just from Chaos Earth, you've got Day demons, Night demons and Chaos demons. Night bane has their own brand of demons too. (can't remember their name ATM)

Longshadow, Armorlord, thanks for remembering me of the Chaos Earth stuff - and indeed, the Nightlords and their servants could be some peculiar group of paranoid, conquering & isolationist demonic lords. Their tendency to tweak an invaded world's ambient PPE to a certain level seems to point out to some sort of fear of high-level competition.

Emphasis mine.

Now speaking of other things, is anything said about the origins or society of any of the demon races in "Chaos Earth - Creatures of Chaos"? Anything that could help with setting up other realms and factions would be interesting.

Just checked the Struwwelpeter - interesting character, though his MDC seems very low for a supposed "Greater Supernatural Being or an ancient, archaic Chaos Demon Lord", unless he's laboring under some sort of restrictions/losses not mentioned in the book. The possibility of playing him like a twisted version of Sandman's Morpheus has also crossed my mind, not to mention his sharing a "demonic fey" theme with the Black Faeries (maybe a common origin?) that might be worth exploring in a game.

That said, now that i thought of it, Europe could make a great breakthrough point for the forces of Hades at least - the turmoil in the lands of the Gargoyle Empire means they could bring hundreds of thousands of their own gargoyle servants into the continent with none the wiser and cause mayhem, not to mention the potential of through the use of these forces subverting either Zerstrung's Gargoyle Empire or the splinter lords throughout western and central europe. Damn, a demon-backed Gargoyle Empire could make a major foothold for the forces of Hades in Rifts Earth, i think, one the forces of Atlantis might not be exactly happy with (nor the Phoenix Empire, if its ruler wasn't utterly insane).

Another race that might be fun to set up something with may be the C'ro Demon Mages from the Mindwerks sourcebook, as they have a decent power level but little to no information on their place of origin, society or any such thing. Someone commented in another thread of similarities between it and the Croval from Land of the Damned and i might or not play with that. Either way the book offers some more minions of darkness to involve in the Minion War in a number of ways - anything happening in the Great Rift could affect the whole war considerably, Modeus nearly won it all in the first strike of the war, thanks to that place's connection to both realms, so a third or fourth camp at the present moment could really muddle things up.

[SolCannibal]

Ok, kind of a bit of thread necromancy, but found an actual definition.

Demons with a specific and well known allegiance, such as the demons of Hades and the Deevils and other minions of Dyval, are well known because they are involved in skullduggery across the Megaverse and because they and their fellow demons have formed a sort of pantheon or "family" of creatures via a lasting alliance and association with each other. This also applies to the so-called Russian Demons, China Demons, Daemonix, Vampires and Splugorth, among others.

Some of these "families" of demons are known as "archaic demons", supernatural beings whose existence dates back before the reign of the current leaders and powerhouses in the demonic realms today. Archaic demons are generally more animal-like, primal, instinctive and predatory than the "modern" demons of Hades and Dyval, but can be just as nasty and deadly. (And who is to say how many other species of Hades demons have gone extinct over the eons, or exist only as a tiny handful?)

[Bood Samel]

The demon and deevil thing is just KS playing off of old dnd's demons and devils, the 9 hells and the abyss, chaotic vs lawful evil. Palladium is generally lacking in terms of the quality of supernatural monsters.

[Zamion138]

Wormwood has a demon or two not ascociated with hades/dyval. Nor are they part of the unholy host, they sre natural diminsional travlers and bi pedal.....my books on loan but its in the section talking at about the free city. I can picture him hes standing witha sword and legs kinda shoulder spread.
Also the oni, from rifts japan, ice demon from palladium fantasy wich is a true "demon" but unaligned

[SolCannibal]

Oh yeah, i remember the Oni, thanks. Will try to catch Wormwood for a look with a friend as soon as i can - the dimension as a whole could be counted as a hell-realm in the brink of war, much like the Nightlands in some ways.
Not to mention the respective antagonists of each pantheon given in Pantheons of Megaverse, one could easily count each grouping as wholy separate hell-realm on its own. The Galla demons (Babylonian pantheon) created & modified by Apsu are of particular interest, as they are mentioned as "distantly related to the baal-rog demon", what in itself opens room for a relation-interest-rivalry and direct involvment in the Minion War.

Edit: just for the sake of curiosity, has this guy ever been described or stated?

http://i.imgur.com/KjfZi.jpg

[Tor]

Old Ones? I would think they fit on a whole different scale, creating demonic/infernal races in the long-forgotten past as tools and servants, but not quite part of them.

Maybe not the old ones themselves, but one of the Old Ones created the 4 Apocalypse demons, who are probably somewhere between Greater and Lord in terms of power level. The merger of all 4 would rival if not exceed most Lords I think.

And the Yama Kings with their (renegade) connection to the Celestial Bureaucracy & stuff kind of fit the role of "pantheon agents". My thoughts at least.

Yet they are demons, quite explicitly. They wouldn't be the first example of demons being affiliated with a deific pantheon, CB2 is full of dark gods who have dark god affiliations.

"demon guy in the Black Forest"?

Struwwelpeter "An unknown Greater Supernatural Being, possibly a unique creature unto himself or an ancient, archaic Chaos Demon Lord"

This guy sounds scary, is he in Chaos Earth or something?

No one has mentioned the Red Flame Demons or the Nightlords yet, tsk, tsk.

Red Flame Demons are also demons from Hades, albeit ones who are basically ignored outside of Nightbane. I'm not sure if the Nightlords or any of their standard minions are considered demons, which ones do you mean, page source?

Last I checked, while people might 'consider' the Nightlords "demons", they are explicitly a bunch of super-powerful human sorcerers empowered by centuries of PPE vampirism.

Speaking of Vampires, I'm pretty sure they got lumped as 'demons' in PRPG, I don't recall seeing them called demons outside of PRPG's 1st ed bestiary though.

Wormwood has a demon or two not ascociated with hades/dyval. Nor are they part of the unholy host, they sre natural diminsional travlers and bi pedal.....my books on loan but its in the section talking at about the free city. I can picture him hes standing witha sword and legs kinda shoulder spread.

Probably speaking about the Shade RCC I'm guessing, next to the Rathos who I think might also be a form of demon. Not totally clear on those two. Also we have Entrancers and Morphworms.

Most tend to be part of the Host, but few beings must ALWAYS be part of you. You can always have some who go over to the Light or (more common) become mercenaries or feudal lords.

the respective antagonists of each pantheon given in Pantheons of Megaverse, one could easily count each grouping as wholy separate hell-realm on its own. The Galla demons (Babylonian pantheon) created & modified by Apsu are of particular interest, as they are mentioned as "distantly related to the baal-rog demon", what in itself opens room for a relation-interest-rivalry and direct involvment in the Minion War.

Some like Hades Aidoneous are explicitly mentioned as fighting over the same territory in Hades as some of the Demon Lords of Hades, on the other hand.

Of course this was with the CB1 versions of the Demon Lords, not the Dragons and Gods ones, and due to some major differences I'm not clear if they should be treated as the same entities or not. Not as similar as the Africa versions of that pantheon, that's for sure.

has this guy ever been described or stated? http://i.imgur.com/KjfZi.jpg

Never seen him but... man I hope so. This guy is a legend just like the Slaver on the cover of RMB. Well maybe not 'just like', I think the color and women made the tentacle monster slightly more popular.

[SolCannibal]

Old Ones? I would think they fit on a whole different scale, creating demonic/infernal races in the long-forgotten past as tools and servants, but not quite part of them.

Maybe not the old ones themselves, but one of the Old Ones created the 4 Apocalypse demons, who are probably somewhere between Greater and Lord in terms of power level. The merger of all 4 would rival if not exceed most Lords I think.

Indeed. While the Old Ones might be in a another league altogether the Apocalypse demons, specially with a bunch of servants, might make for an alternate power.

And the Yama Kings with their (renegade) connection to the Celestial Bureaucracy & stuff kind of fit the role of "pantheon agents". My thoughts at least.

Yet they are demons, quite explicitly. They wouldn't be the first example of demons being affiliated with a deific pantheon, CB2 is full of dark gods who have dark god affiliations.

Point. Might take some more time to explore them - and other dark/demonic entities presented in CB2.

"demon guy in the Black Forest"?

Struwwelpeter "An unknown Greater Supernatural Being, possibly a unique creature unto himself or an ancient, archaic Chaos Demon Lord"

This guy sounds scary, is he in Chaos Earth or something?

Aftermath & Triax 2 comment on him i think - that said his fluff is fare more impressive than his actual stats.

No one has mentioned the Red Flame Demons or the Nightlords yet, tsk, tsk.

Red Flame Demons are also demons from Hades, albeit ones who are basically ignored outside of Nightbane. I'm not sure if the Nightlords or any of their standard minions are considered demons, which ones do you mean, page source?

Last I checked, while people might 'consider' the Nightlords "demons", they are explicitly a bunch of super-powerful human sorcerers empowered by centuries of PPE vampirism.

Speaking of Vampires, I'm pretty sure they got lumped as 'demons' in PRPG, I don't recall seeing them called demons outside of PRPG's 1st ed bestiary though.

The matter of the Red Flame demons is pretty confusing, among other things because they seem to be composed of the same brands of demons as the Netherworld and every other demonic force in the Nightbane series, what's not exactly surprising as its originally set up as an independent series/setting.

Nightlords might be seen as "demonic" in the same way as vampires and the favored minions of the Splugorth. In fact the last two are in Hades & Dyval both in the list of "demon families/pantheons" examples.

the respective antagonists of each pantheon given in Pantheons of Megaverse, one could easily count each grouping as wholy separate hell-realm on its own. The Galla demons (Babylonian pantheon) created & modified by Apsu are of particular interest, as they are mentioned as "distantly related to the baal-rog demon", what in itself opens room for a relation-interest-rivalry and direct involvment in the Minion War.

Some like Hades Aidoneous are explicitly mentioned as fighting over the same territory in Hades as some of the Demon Lords of Hades, on the other hand.

Of course this was with the CB1 versions of the Demon Lords, not the Dragons and Gods ones, and due to some major differences I'm not clear if they should be treated as the same entities or not. Not as similar as the Africa versions of that pantheon, that's for sure.

I'm not sure the egyptian gods in Rifts Earth and their namesakes in Dragons and Gods are the same, what to say of the demons.
That said i'm thinking of making the CB1 versions fakes and putting the Nightbane demons as part of fake Modeus (and possibly Mictla) servants.

has this guy ever been described or stated? http://i.imgur.com/KjfZi.jpg

Never seen him but... man I hope so. This guy is a legend just like the Slaver on the cover of RMB. Well maybe not 'just like', I think the color and women made the tentacle monster slightly more popular.

yeah, getting some fluff on this dude or its race one day would be very nice indeed.

Chicks and tentacles, the killer combo - the day an horde of demon-women with tentacles invade Rifts Earth the Megaverse is most probably boned.

[Tor]

Nightlords might be seen as "demonic" in the same way as vampires and the favored minions of the Splugorth. In fact the last two are in Hades & Dyval both in the list of "demon families/pantheons" examples.

Interesting. Sure it wasn't 'demonic'. One could plausibly argue that 'demonic' could mean demon-like rather than Demons.

I'm not sure the egyptian gods in Rifts Earth and their namesakes in Dragons and Gods are the same, what to say of the demons.

True, but there are a lot stronger connections between Egypt/D&G than CB1/D&G. For one, the former has all the same attributes and descriptions, while the latter doesn't.

That said i'm thinking of making the CB1 versions fakes and putting the Nightbane demons as part of fake Modeus (and possibly Mictla) servants.

It being the fakes involved with Lilith would help explain why Nightbane doesn't appear to be playing a prominent role in PF events or the Minion War.

I dislike that 'fakes' though. Asmodeus (the CB1 Modeus) is an ancient Aztec god, who's to say he doesn't predate the PF Modeus? How long has that one been around?

the day an horde of demon-women with tentacles invade Rifts Earth the Megaverse is most probably boned.

Between the Shadows Pg 70-71
Underseas Pg 46-48
Psyscape Pg 102-105

Probably some additional nightmare fuel I am overlooking. I'll ignore you can have female nightbane like this since banes are so individualized and we're talking mass-produced hordes here.

[SolCannibal]

Nightlords might be seen as "demonic" in the same way as vampires and the favored minions of the Splugorth. In fact the last two are in Hades & Dyval both in the list of "demon families/pantheons" examples.

Interesting. Sure it wasn't 'demonic'. One could plausibly argue that 'demonic' could mean demon-like rather than Demons.

Certainly - but that still makes them a realm of malignant, dimension-conquering/twisting supernatural beings seen as something of a noteworthy power to other such "hell-realms/demonic hordes".

I'm not sure the egyptian gods in Rifts Earth and their namesakes in Dragons and Gods are the same, what to say of the demons.

True, but there are a lot stronger connections between Egypt/D&G than CB1/D&G. For one, the former has all the same attributes and descriptions, while the latter doesn't.

Fact, but to put it in another way - if i'm not quite certain of the two versions egyptian gods being the same, what defense is there for the demon/deevil lords, that show some differences even in attributes and descriptions?

That said i'm thinking of making the CB1 versions fakes and putting the Nightbane demons as part of fake Modeus (and possibly Mictla) servants.

It being the fakes involved with Lilith would help explain why Nightbane doesn't appear to be playing a prominent role in PF events or the Minion War.

I dislike that 'fakes' though. Asmodeus (the CB1 Modeus) is an ancient Aztec god, who's to say he doesn't predate the PF Modeus? How long has that one been around?

I think you mean Mictla (whose name connects to aztec myth and changes even gender between module versions), not Modeus. Also, Mephisto is the only one for whom "version X is a fake" is an actual canon explanation for any stats or description differences, afaik, so the idea of all demon/deevil lords in CB1 as a cabal of impostors lead by a strange trio of alien intelligences and their demonic lieutenants (many of them exiles and criminals in their home dimensions) exploiting Rifts Earth while throwing dirt & misdirection under another's name is, to the best of my knowledge, while something not hard to extrapolate from books, totally made up for my own game and never stated as canon.

the day an horde of demon-women with tentacles invade Rifts Earth the Megaverse is most probably boned.

Between the Shadows Pg 70-71
Underseas Pg 46-48
Psyscape Pg 102-105

Probably some additional nightmare fuel I am overlooking. I'll ignore you can have female nightbane like this since banes are so individualized and we're talking mass-produced hordes here.

About the last ones in the Psyscape book - Necrophim? Seriously, that name really got my attention on itself. Unfortunately their background and that of their Nightbane namesakes are completely different, making any hope of a direct link void.

Unless one consider "Necrophim" to be the name of a "demon horde" native to the astral plane and Soul Snakes & "Nightbane Necrophim" two races of a much varied family of monsters. Promising.

Anyway thanks for the image references.

[Tor]

Being that NB Necrophim can astrally and dream travel, it would be simple for them to get to Rifts Earth and encounter their Psyscape counterparts and battle over the name rights.

Heck, I need to re-read Psyscape to see who can and can't become them, the idea of a double-necrophim sounds interesting, prob some 'no supies' rule though.

[SolCannibal]

Being that NB Necrophim can astrally and dream travel, it would be simple for them to get to Rifts Earth and encounter their Psyscape counterparts and battle over the name rights.

Heck, I need to re-read Psyscape to see who can and can't become them, the idea of a double-necrophim sounds interesting, prob some 'no supies' rule though.

Could be an option, certainly, but i'm thinking more of revealing "Necrophim" to be a "family name" covering a number of races, in a similar way as the "Daemonix" title. That said a "necrophim-possessed necrophim" would be an hilarious idea.

[Tor]

Technically it is the Soul Worm that possesses those who are transformed into Necrophim.

[SolCannibal]

Technically it is the Soul Worm that possesses those who are transformed into Necrophim.

Soul Snake, actually - Soul Worms are a race of supernatural intelligences (presented in Rifts south America), from when they had races like Splyn and Mrrlyn do, instead of being all-around lovecraftian horror expies.

[Tor]

Ah right you are, wire-crossing there.

The Soul Worms introduced in SA are legit terrifying though.

I mean sure, Deevil Lords like Tentac can consume your soul when they kill you... preventing a resurrection escape...

But if a Soul Worm catches you, you can remain alive with your soul given a lobotomy... I'm not sure dying and respawning could fix that... I don't know if anything can...

[SolCannibal]

Ah right you are, wire-crossing there.

It happens, easy to confuse all the legless slithering creepy-crawlies with Soul in them.

The Soul Worms introduced in SA are legit terrifying though.

I mean sure, Deevil Lords like Tentac can consume your soul when they kill you... preventing a resurrection escape...

But if a Soul Worm catches you, you can remain alive with your soul given a lobotomy... I'm not sure dying and respawning could fix that... I don't know if anything can...

Not sure of how far goes the Soul Worm memory-devouring capacity, but it can be nasty aplenty indeed. Also find it curious how they seem to usually be more of a lieutenant or mid-boss kind of entity than full-on boss like many other alien intelligences.