Who can be mind bleeders?

[Tor]

that change does let the munchkins play their "human" Mind Bleeders...the one thing they did get right was to say that such a CC is a PCC.

I don't see how it's munchkin exactly, there's no inherent advantage to being human over d-bee in and of itself. More a consideration if someone was wanting to get magic tats or other human-exclusive stuff.

Still, compared to Atlantean or Amaki or Faustian Mind Bleeders (and I think some other alien in Canada?) it doesn't seem more powerful.

The books have been pretty clear that PCC, Psychic RCC, Psychic OCC, are all pretty much the same thing.

[flatline]

Well that change does let the munchkins play their "human" Mind Bleeders...

What's munchkin about human Mind Bleeders?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Well that change does let the munchkins play their "human" Mind Bleeders...

What's munchkin about human Mind Bleeders?

--flatline

Nothing. Other than being human they aren't gaining anything and aren't any more disruptive than any other class simply by being human.

[eliakon]

Sorry for the necro-threading but I just noticed in D-Bees of North America, under Mind-Bleeders is says:

"Mind Bleeders are not d-bees but human mutants..."

Well that certainly changes this old debate since this is the most recent book to mention Mind Bleeders and explicitly contradicts Africa and Psyscape.

Personally I prefer them to be human mutants rather than d-bees, but maybe just having both is better.

So now we are back to where they started (The first mention of Mind-Bleeders was in Atlantis...where they were an option for Atlantians.....)

[drewkitty ~..~]

The books have been pretty clear that PCC, Psychic RCC, Psychic OCC, are all pretty much the same thing.

Actually Kevin Siembieda ( RUE is where it was admitted ) was clear, that PCC's had been intently mislabeled as RCC's were to be mislabeled as OCC's with RUE.

And that you continually IGNORE me point those that out.
And give me grief when I correctly call PCC's PCC's. Above quote being an example.
--------------------------
Psychic RCC's....duh the Mind bleeder RCC as presented in the Africa book (yes, I wrote the phrasing very specifically). And the RCC's for the psychic races in SA2. This is duh simple reading the words people.

wool

[eliakon]

The books have been pretty clear that PCC, Psychic RCC, Psychic OCC, are all pretty much the same thing.

Actually Kevin Siembieda ( RUE is where it was admitted ) was clear, that PCC's had been intently mislabeled as RCC's were to be mislabeled as OCC's with RUE.

And that you continually IGNORE me point those that out.
And give me grief when I correctly call PCC's PCC's. Above quote being an example.
--------------------------
Psychic RCC's....duh the Mind bleeder RCC as presented in the Africa book (yes, I wrote the phrasing very specifically). And the RCC's for the psychic races in SA2. This is duh simple reading the words people.

wool

Your both right actually.
They have been quite clearly labled....as both in different places (some times in the same book) to the point that its pretty much impossible to make a clear distinction of what is what with out applying a huge amount of personal opinion and judgment calling.

[Nightmask]

The books have been pretty clear that PCC, Psychic RCC, Psychic OCC, are all pretty much the same thing.

Actually Kevin Siembieda ( RUE is where it was admitted ) was clear, that PCC's had been intently mislabeled as RCC's were to be mislabeled as OCC's with RUE.

And that you continually IGNORE me point those that out.
And give me grief when I correctly call PCC's PCC's. Above quote being an example.
--------------------------
Psychic RCC's....duh the Mind bleeder RCC as presented in the Africa book (yes, I wrote the phrasing very specifically). And the RCC's for the psychic races in SA2. This is duh simple reading the words people.

wool

To correct your misswording there the mislabeling of various psychic OCC as RCC is to be corrected to being OCC, it's just your opinion that in spite of what he says they're mislabeled in the correction as OCC (because it would be ridiculous of him to say 'well yes they were mislabeled as RCC but rather than give them a correct label I'm mislabeling them again as OCC'). Which is likely why people ignore you when you try and insist that they're PCC because that's what you want them to be because they aren't, they're OCC.

[Tor]

Siembieda ( RUE is where it was admitted ) was clear, that PCC's had been intently mislabeled as RCC's were to be mislabeled as OCC's with RUE.

You're misrepresenting this. Kev did not 'admit' anything, he blatantly DECLARED changes that were happening and which had occurred over time.

Where does he use the term 'mislabel'? That's YOUR term, I do not recall Kev ever calling the labelling a mistake, just that he opted to change things for uniformity to avoid confusion. Like how people thought racial and psychic occupational character classes were not OCCs simply because their acronym omitted the O for brevity.

give me grief when I correctly call PCC's PCC's. Above quote being an example.

You're not being griefed for calling Mind Bleeders a PCC. My criticism is more based on your 'get it right' comment which implies it was wrong before, which it wasn't, it was just different.

Psychic RCC's....duh the Mind bleeder RCC as presented in the Africa book (yes, I wrote the phrasing very specifically). And the RCC's for the psychic races in SA2.

Can we ditch the apostrophe use? I know this is sometimes done by whoever writes the ToC/glossary at the start of some books, but since it is not possessive or contractive there ought not to be one between the 2nd C and the S.

By psychic races in SA2 am thinking Neo-Humans would qualify.

But then we have things like the Pogtaran (sp?) Mind Mage OCC.

To correct your misswording there the mislabeling of various psychic OCC as RCC is to be corrected to being OCC, it's just your opinion that in spite of what he says they're mislabeled in the correction as OCC (because it would be ridiculous of him to say 'well yes they were mislabeled as RCC but rather than give them a correct label I'm mislabeling them again as OCC'). Which is likely why people ignore you when you try and insist that they're PCC because that's what you want them to be because they aren't, they're OCC.

RCC was not a mislabel, it was done intentionally.

The change from psychic RCCs to OCC in labelling is not a 'correction' because that implies the prior was a mistake.

RCC was not a typo, it was done intentionally, Kev just changed the formatting, so we should just call it a change.

This isn't an either-or. They are OCCs. They are psychic OCCs. They are psychic RCCs. They are PCCs. All are fine. RUE just favours using OCC.

[SolCannibal]

From what I have read they are a race of D-Bees that can pass as human and mostly dominate Africa and use their ability to feed on knowledge to make their living as spies or information brokers.

That's how they're described in Psyscape, too, but in Atlantis, Mind Bleeder is listed as possible character class for True Atlanteans and I'm pretty sure I've seen it listed for other races as well. That's why I asked.

--flatline

Maybe a true Atlantean and other races can become Mind Bleeders?
As in, the process of becoming a Mind Bleeder changes you into a Mind Bleeder. So a True Atlantean Mind Bleeder might be a Atlantean with the Mind Bleeder O.C.C. but now they're a mind bleeder and not an Atlantean anymore (even though they are mechanically). This makes more sense in my head.

This does make me sort of tempted to make Mind Bleeder a sort of taint/infection somewhat like vampirism in some games, just to see how it turns out.

[flatline]

From what I have read they are a race of D-Bees that can pass as human and mostly dominate Africa and use their ability to feed on knowledge to make their living as spies or information brokers.

That's how they're described in Psyscape, too, but in Atlantis, Mind Bleeder is listed as possible character class for True Atlanteans and I'm pretty sure I've seen it listed for other races as well. That's why I asked.

--flatline

Maybe a true Atlantean and other races can become Mind Bleeders?
As in, the process of becoming a Mind Bleeder changes you into a Mind Bleeder. So a True Atlantean Mind Bleeder might be a Atlantean with the Mind Bleeder O.C.C. but now they're a mind bleeder and not an Atlantean anymore (even though they are mechanically). This makes more sense in my head.

This does make me sort of tempted to make Mind Bleeder a sort of taint/infection somewhat like vampirism in some games, just to see how it turns out.

It works out very nicely. We had a campaign where mind bleeder powers were a symptom of a parasite. The downside was that you were addicted to ISP (and something else that I can't seem to remember).

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

Tor & NM,

We both have been over this many times and whether the mislabeling of PCC's as something else was done through typos or officially it is still mislabeling.
and,
Whether he Declared they are continuing to mislabel PCC or Admitting to continuing to mislabel PCC's, but in a different way, is negligible at best.

Yes, The DBoNA got the classification of the "human mutant" MB's labels as a PCC right. Because...that ....is....what....they...<descriptive adverb> .....Are!

At that you giving me grief over me saying that the Writer "Got...It...Right" in this, is just typical of you trying to troll me into getting angry, since you didn't "NEED" to say anything at all because there was nothing to be corrected.
As per your own post, (tor's) you should not of posted anything because there was nothing to correct. Cause in your minds eye those three CC's are the same thing.

It is stupid to go about labeling things what they are not for two things, 1) its like calling a cat a dog (Yah, it makes things ""simpler"" but it is still calling a cat a dog. And calling a cat a Rat did not go well ether. The actual "simpler" would of been calling a cat a cat, a dog a dog, and a rat a rat and be done with it.)
[aside: For those of you who are not keeping up cats are PCC's, dogs are OCC's and rats are RCC's. yes I know the only one that alliteratively fits are the rats for RCC's. *shrugs* was using what people know.]

And 2) because of rules interactions because most people are lazy and do not want to convert the labeling format of one setting to those of another to use that other setting's rules. Or even Admit that the differing labeling formats even Exist.

As it is KS and crew has ended up with a bigger mess then they started with in this area of the rules.

[Nightmask]

Tor & NM,

We both have been over this many times and whether the mislabeling of PCC's as something else was done through typos or officially it is still mislabeling.
and,
Whether he Declared they are continuing to mislabel PCC or Admitting to continuing to mislabel PCC's, but in a different way, is negligible at best.

Yes, The DBoNA got the classification of the "human mutant" MB's labels as a PCC right. Because...that ....is....what....they...<descriptive adverb> .....Are!

At that you giving me grief over me saying that the Writer "Got...It...Right" in this, is just typical of you trying to troll me into getting angry, since you didn't "NEED" to say anything at all because there was nothing to be corrected.
As per your own post, (tor's) you should not of posted anything because there was nothing to correct. Cause in your minds eye those three CC's are the same thing.

It is stupid to go about labeling things what they are not for two things, 1) its like calling a cat a dog (Yah, it makes things ""simpler"" but it is still calling a cat a dog. And calling a cat a Rat did not go well ether. The actual "simpler" would of been calling a cat a cat, a dog a dog, and a rat a rat and be done with it.)
[aside: For those of you who are not keeping up cats are PCC's, dogs are OCC's and rats are RCC's. yes I know the only one that alliteratively fits are the rats for RCC's. *shrugs* was using what people know.]

And 2) because of rules interactions because most people are lazy and do not want to convert the labeling format of one setting to those of another to use that other setting's rules. Or even Admit that the differing labeling formats even Exist.

As it is KS and crew has ended up with a bigger mess then they started with in this area of the rules.

Correcting you isn't trolling you, and insisting that Kevin was wrong and still mislabeling psychic characters by labeling them as OCC qualifies as you presenting an opinion and trying to treat the PCC as still existing when Palladium got rid of it years ago and made it clear that they're OCC just like any other OCC. Palladium doesn't use the PCC anymore therefor characters like Mind Melters can't be mislabeled because the label doesn't exist AND because Palladium has made it clear with the text you presented that they've corrected things by removing the PCC and relabeling them OCC.

You don't like that Palladium got rid of the PCC designation and are free to do so, but repeating it every time you make a post on something where psychic powers are involved particularly as if somehow Palladium still uses the label when it doesn't is pointless. Everyone knows your opinion about it really still being around when it isn't and continue to use it in your games even when others don't but when it comes to discussing who can be what that has psychic powers (like in this case with Mind Bleeders) PCC don't exist and no value in insisting they still do because they don't and not relevant to the topic.

[SolCannibal]

I know it's probably a serious sidetrack from the current line of discussion but the "Mind Bleeders are are a race of d-bees" can simply be solved by their being considered mutants/psychics from a parallel Earth or something similar. Considering the 'bleed and how Psi-stalkers seem to consider them as rivals/natural enemies, they might be their homeworld's equivalent - mutant predators of psychics in a planet full of them to a mind-bogling, society threatening level, something between Scanners & Akira maybe.

[Nightmask]

I know it's probably a serious sidetrack from the current line of discussion but the "Mind Bleeders are are a race of d-bees" can simply be solved by their being considered mutants/psychics from a parallel Earth or something similar. Considering the 'bleed and how Psi-stalkers seem to consider them as rivals/natural enemies, they might be their homeworld's equivalent - mutant predators of psychics in a planet full of them to a mind-bogling, society threatening level, something between Scanners & Akira maybe.

A workable way of looking at it, it would make them fit as both mutant humans and aliens/d-bees since a human-variant species from another earth would still be aliens on Rifts Earth.

[SolCannibal]

I know it's probably a serious sidetrack from the current line of discussion but the "Mind Bleeders are are a race of d-bees" can simply be solved by their being considered mutants/psychics from a parallel Earth or something similar. Considering the 'bleed and how Psi-stalkers seem to consider them as rivals/natural enemies, they might be their homeworld's equivalent - mutant predators of psychics in a planet full of them to a mind-bogling, society threatening level, something between Scanners & Akira maybe.

A workable way of looking at it, it would make them fit as both mutant humans and aliens/d-bees since a human-variant species from another earth would still be aliens on Rifts Earth.

Yup, truth be told things back with RMB were a bit more flexible with the definition of D-bee, something that shows up in the (old) optional tables to round out a character, that were a little different from the RUE version and had things like "Family Origin - 51-65 D-Bee: human (or close to it), but parents came through a rift from another dimension." in them, not to mention "86-00 Earth Mutant (1-50%), or D-Bee (51-90%), or alien (91-00) that is humanoid but has unusual features." among other potential interesting weirdness.

[taalismn]

[

Yup, truth be told things back with RMB were a bit more flexible with the definition of D-bee, something that shows up in the (old) optional tables to round out a character, that were a little different from the RUE version and had things like "Family Origin - 51-65 D-Bee: human (or close to it), but parents came through a rift from another dimension." in them, not to mention "86-00 Earth Mutant (1-50%), or D-Bee (51-90%), or alien (91-00) that is humanoid but has unusual features." among other potential interesting weirdness.

It's in keeping with the idea that humans are the megaverse's equivalent of sentient rats...and rats can come in a variety of patterns and types.

[SolCannibal]

Yup, truth be told things back with RMB were a bit more flexible with the definition of D-bee, something that shows up in the (old) optional tables to round out a character, that were a little different from the RUE version and had things like "Family Origin - 51-65 D-Bee: human (or close to it), but parents came through a rift from another dimension." in them, not to mention "86-00 Earth Mutant (1-50%), or D-Bee (51-90%), or alien (91-00) that is humanoid but has unusual features." among other potential interesting weirdness.

It's in keeping with the idea that humans are the megaverse's equivalent of sentient rats...and rats can come in a variety of patterns and types.

Yes, there was also something terribly entertaining in the idea if 15% of all adventurers (if not all characters, be it PC, NPC or extra) in Rifts Earth being some kind of mutant from humanity or whatever D-bee or alien humanoid species one was supposedly descended of.

[Tor]

We both have been over this many times
whether the mislabeling of PCC's as something else was done through typos or officially it is still mislabeling

I do not agree that a clear conscious choice by the head honcho of the company is mislabelling, I view that to mean mistaken labelling. Changing your mind about something does not make the original choice a mistake.

Whether he Declared they are continuing to mislabel PCC or Admitting to continuing to mislabel PCC's, but in a different way, is negligible at best.

Evidence existing of labelling being a conscious choice as opposed to a possible typo is not a negligible detail.

Yes, The DBoNA got the classification of the "human mutant" MB's labels as a PCC right. Because...that ....is....what....they...<descriptive adverb> .....Are!

Or what they have been changed into. The Rifts Africa description lead me to think they were being portrayed as a non-human but humanoid alien from another dimension.

I hate the idea of calling mutants native to Rifts Earth and the Rifts dimension d-bees. It is a mistake we expect from the CS but which should not be present in the book title containing earthlings if that is the case.

you giving me grief over me saying that the Writer "Got...It...Right" in this, is just typical of you trying to troll me into getting angry, since you didn't "NEED" to say anything at all because there was nothing to be corrected.

Criticizing people is not trolling unless you do not actually believe in the criticisms you are levying.

I believe in my criticisms, and my awareness that you or others may sometimes react in anger to criticism does not mean that angering you is the reason I levy them, and I resent that implication.

you should not of posted anything because there was nothing to correct. Cause in your minds eye those three CC's are the same thing.[/i]

Replying does not have to be done with the purpose of correcting an overt error.

I am commenting on the clear implication that -got it right- especially in relation to your past criticism means that they were wrong before.

It is stupid to go about labeling things what they are not for two things, 1) its like calling a cat a dog (Yah, it makes things ""simpler"" but it is still calling a cat a dog. And calling a cat a Rat did not go well ether. The actual "simpler" would of been calling a cat a cat, a dog a dog, and a rat a rat and be done with it.)

Neat, except rather than cat and dog, I see this as more of a banker and human issue.

because of rules interactions because most people are lazy and do not want to convert the labeling format of one setting to those of another to use that other setting's rules. Or even Admit that the differing labeling formats even Exist.

I admit they exist but see different restrictions in them than you do, since I have seen -psychic OCC- used as a PCC equivalent

trying to treat the PCC as still existing when Palladium got rid of it years ago and made it clear that they're OCC just like any other OCC.

PCC still exists in many active games, like Nightbane and Palladium Fantasy and Mystic China and Beyond the Supernatural.

Rifts opting not to use it does not mean it does not exist.

PCCs are not OCCs like any other OCC. They are a special sub-class of OCCs which require psychic powers and focus on them.

Unless we see new printings of NB and PF and MC and Beyond2 which replaces PCC with OCC then I will view the label as still active.