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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:54 am
  

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Hero

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Comment: Anything worth killing is worth overkilling.
Of those who have asserted that if a Godling or Demigod takes a Magic-Using class (say Shifter), he/she/it then gets the Shifter's beginning spells, as it is a class ability. Do you also include #10 (save/spell strength/etc. bonuses) and #11 (starting & /lvl P.P.E.)?

If the Godling is a spell-lobber, he gets some P.P.E. Does taking the Shifter class provide bonus P.P.E.? If he takes two powers say, Shifter & Wind Elemental, does he get P.P.E. from both classes and the racial P.P.E? Does he get twice the racial P.P.E only or the P.P.E. from both classes and the racial, or just the racial once.

The same applies for Psionics. A Godling who takes two lesser categories as one power and Burster for another, does he get the racial I.S.P for one and the Burster I.S.P. for the other, or twice the racial I.S.P.?


How would you rule?

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"Then one day, I was just walking down the street and I heard a voice behind me say, 'Reach for it Mister.', and I spun around and there I was face to face with a six-year-old kid.
Well, I just threw my guns down, walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass.”

-Waco Kid (Blazing Saddles)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:49 am
  

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Hero

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Comment: Anything worth killing is worth overkilling.
I guess the second part of my answer lies in the Demigod description. A Demigod gets 4D6 P.P.E. and I.S.P. just for breathing. If he takes Body Fixer as an O.C.C. then takes all healing and 5 super powers, he only gets those 4D6. The same problem erupts if he takes the same O.C.C. and Fleshsculpter as a casting class. With only 4D6 P.P.E., he's going to have to keep a fresh supply of orphans around to be able to do his cosmetic surgery for the rich and powerful.

Sensibly the Demigod should get the full resource bar of the selected power and his racial bonus. Since the power is the same whether it's chosen by a Demigod or a Godling, the Godling should get the same treatment. This creates a situation where the character might not run out of resource before his Headhunter buddy is on his third e-clip. Not really a game breaker. As far as the O.C.C. bonuses go, I'd have to include them also. You don't want the Mystic blowing off the H.F. of some THING that has the Godling wetting himself.

Again, your thoughts please.

_________________
"Then one day, I was just walking down the street and I heard a voice behind me say, 'Reach for it Mister.', and I spun around and there I was face to face with a six-year-old kid.
Well, I just threw my guns down, walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass.”

-Waco Kid (Blazing Saddles)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:51 am
  

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Wanderer

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Comment: Reflux adept.
It never states that you add the ppe, isp or bonus's in the godling power selection just the abilities.

My group has never played it as you get more free bonus's as it is already very powerful, but to each his own.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:33 pm
  

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Wanderer

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Comment: Reflux adept.
Lets take Odin the All-Father

As a level 20 LeyLine walker, 20 Diabolist, 20 shifter, 20 necromancer, and 20 temporal wizard the people he casts against need a 16 or higher to save vs magic.

If you added the spell power bonuses from leyline walker and shifter (without linking to a god of magic) by level 7 you'd have the same 16 or higher to save vs magic so I don't think they'd stack otherwise he'd have more like a 24 or higher to save vs magic just counting llwalker, shifter and temporal wizard if bonuses stop at 15.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:13 pm
  

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Champion

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Khanibal wrote:
I guess the second part of my answer lies in the Demigod description. A Demigod gets 4D6 P.P.E. and I.S.P. just for breathing. If he takes Body Fixer as an O.C.C. then takes all healing and 5 super powers, he only gets those 4D6. The same problem erupts if he takes the same O.C.C. and Fleshsculpter as a casting class. With only 4D6 P.P.E., he's going to have to keep a fresh supply of orphans around to be able to do his cosmetic surgery for the rich and powerful.

Sensibly the Demigod should get the full resource bar of the selected power and his racial bonus. Since the power is the same whether it's chosen by a Demigod or a Godling, the Godling should get the same treatment. This creates a situation where the character might not run out of resource before his Headhunter buddy is on his third e-clip. Not really a game breaker. As far as the O.C.C. bonuses go, I'd have to include them also. You don't want the Mystic blowing off the H.F. of some THING that has the Godling wetting himself.

Again, your thoughts please.

The Godling/Demigod RCCs are tricky this way. There are two ways I'd consider doing up ISP and PPE. The first is to just add them all together, both base and level. This will give the character lots of ammunition for psionics and magic. The second is to take whatever gives you the highest value (for base value and + per level), which will give you less casting/psychic sustained combat power.

Consider looking at it this way: What kinds of choices do you want to be making as a player? If PPE and ISP aren't scarce for you, then you'll be spending those points left and right. If they are, then you'll be watching them closely and thinking through how to get the most benefit from your magic and psionics, and you'll likely be mixing in those powers with others. The game is most interesting to me when players have choices with trade-offs. For that reason, I would probably go with the "take the highest base and increase rate for each OCC" option.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:29 pm
  

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Hero

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Comment: Anything worth killing is worth overkilling.
As a player, I'm usually pretty frugal with my I.S.P. & P.P.E. I know someone has written that spell-lobbers prefer magic first, but I like to save it for problems that can't be solved with a fresh e-clip. I also wear a belt, rather than cast Manipulate Objects, but that's just me.

_________________
"Then one day, I was just walking down the street and I heard a voice behind me say, 'Reach for it Mister.', and I spun around and there I was face to face with a six-year-old kid.
Well, I just threw my guns down, walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass.”

-Waco Kid (Blazing Saddles)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:09 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
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Khanibal wrote:
As a player, I'm usually pretty frugal with my I.S.P. & P.P.E. I know someone has written that spell-lobbers prefer magic first, but I like to save it for problems that can't be solved with a fresh e-clip. I also wear a belt, rather than cast Manipulate Objects, but that's just me.

my main character I played for years, started out as a human Dbee (technically she wasn't totally human but shrug.) who had major psionics and as the campaigns went on eventually she became a minor Goddess (~9,000 MDC, and around 1000 PPE and ISP a huge array of psionic abilities, and just about all spells in the rifts main spell list) but the character still tends to start (and finish) most fights with guns, and only falls back on magic when her "normal" weapons aren't doing the job.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:56 am
  

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Wanderer

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Comment: Reflux adept.
A minor God at 9000 mdc?

Many real non-minor Gods have 9000 mdc or less:

Herakles, Hera, Cerberus, Charon, Athena, Aphrodite, Hermes, Dionysus, Eros, Triton. This list only contains Greek-Roman Pantheon. The only one I might consider a lesser God is Triton.

In my humble opinion guardiandashi your pc should no longer call themselves a minor god.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:10 pm
  

Hero

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VIsgar wrote:
A minor God at 9000 mdc?

Many real non-minor Gods have 9000 mdc or less:

Herakles, Hera, Cerberus, Charon, Athena, Aphrodite, Hermes, Dionysus, Eros, Triton. This list only contains Greek-Roman Pantheon. The only one I might consider a lesser God is Triton.

In my humble opinion guardiandashi your pc should no longer call themselves a minor god.

oh she may not have considered herself a minor god, but her position in the pantheon effectively was, when she would claim her title it was "Alecia DeVreis Goddess of high tech Warfare" which means that if she was a member of the greek/roman or Norse, Pantheons meant that she was effectively a minion, or support Deity of the pantheons God of war.

of course what's sick is that in one campaign, she went up against Helcate, and came off second best, so she reevaluated what she was bringing to the battlefield. in the next fight the GM put her up against Atlas the titan, and she killed him in 1 shot and all that was left of him on earth, was his boots.
getting shot with a syncro cannon, that hits in the middle of the chest tends to do things like that even if you are over 50ft tall. Actually she was a little ticked she doesn't like overkill and collateral damage, and there was apparently an apartment building behind atlas and it was within range so a 50' section of it got absolutely destroyed just like atlas did.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:28 pm
  

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Wanderer

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Comment: Reflux adept.
I've never played a game near that power level.

If I did I would be most interested in the Prototypical Deific Power: Create Minion

or if just being a big jerk Deific Curse:God-Blind


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:16 pm
  

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Knight

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VIsgar wrote:
Herakles, Hera, Cerberus, Charon, Athena, Aphrodite, Hermes, Dionysus, Eros, Triton. This list only contains Greek-Roman Pantheon. The only one I might consider a lesser God is Triton.

Herakles and Dionysus are explicitly demigods elevated to full god status in Pantheons.

Eros and Triton seem like they're on the same level, since they're the sons of higher-ranking gods like Aphrodite and Poseidon. Charon and Hades also seem on that level since they serve Hades.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:36 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
My take on it is that you get the PPE/ISP of the class.
Otherwise you basically get all sorts of powers that you can't ever use.
Caveat! If you take two psi or two magic classes you only get the boost of one, your pick.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:41 am
  

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The demi-god adds the 4d6 to PPE/ ISP.
The godling has its own, as printed.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:21 pm
  

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Knight

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I suppose a Demigod whose power was magical abilities but didn't select a magic OCC wouldn't be able to cast may of the spells they learned?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:41 pm
  

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Palladin

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Axelmania wrote:
I suppose a Demigod whose power was magical abilities but didn't select a magic OCC wouldn't be able to cast may of the spells they learned?



Why not?
It seems logical enough that they would gain the magical OCCs PPE, plus 4d6.
Godlings who choose magical abilities get the amount stated for godlings.

_________________
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:30 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I suppose a Demigod whose power was magical abilities but didn't select a magic OCC wouldn't be able to cast may of the spells they learned?



Why not?
It seems logical enough that they would gain the magical OCCs PPE, plus 4d6.
Godlings who choose magical abilities get the amount stated for godlings.

Demigods who pick magic as their power though, as well as ALL godlings now have less PPE than most level 1 Arcanists.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:55 pm
  

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Palladin

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eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I suppose a Demigod whose power was magical abilities but didn't select a magic OCC wouldn't be able to cast may of the spells they learned?



Why not?
It seems logical enough that they would gain the magical OCCs PPE, plus 4d6.
Godlings who choose magical abilities get the amount stated for godlings.

Demigods who pick magic as their power though, as well as ALL godlings now have less PPE than most level 1 Arcanists.



How so?
A godling who takes the magic power gets 3d4x10+20, +4d6/ level (and can get more PPE just as any other member of the magic-using class can).
A Shifter gets 2d6x10+10, + 2d6/ level (plus whatever they get from a pact)
Ley Line Walkers start with more, but over the course of time it evens out. 3d6x10+20+PE, +3d6/ level

A demi-god Ley Line Walker would add another 4d6 to that. I fail to see the problem.

_________________
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:01 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Vrykolas2k wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I suppose a Demigod whose power was magical abilities but didn't select a magic OCC wouldn't be able to cast may of the spells they learned?



Why not?
It seems logical enough that they would gain the magical OCCs PPE, plus 4d6.
Godlings who choose magical abilities get the amount stated for godlings.

Demigods who pick magic as their power though, as well as ALL godlings now have less PPE than most level 1 Arcanists.



How so?
A godling who takes the magic power gets 3d4x10+20, +4d6/ level (and can get more PPE just as any other member of the magic-using class can).
A Shifter gets 2d6x10+10, + 2d6/ level (plus whatever they get from a pact)
Ley Line Walkers start with more, but over the course of time it evens out. 3d6x10+20+PE, +3d6/ level

A demi-god Ley Line Walker would add another 4d6 to that. I fail to see the problem.

Right
And a Demigod who picks #10 as their power, but is another OCC (lets say, the pick Rogue Scholar) has all the magic powers of their chosen class (lets say shifter)...
but only 4d6 PPE?
That doesn't make sense.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:51 am
  

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Knight

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eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I suppose a Demigod whose power was magical abilities but didn't select a magic OCC wouldn't be able to cast may of the spells they learned?



Why not?
It seems logical enough that they would gain the magical OCCs PPE, plus 4d6.
Godlings who choose magical abilities get the amount stated for godlings.

Demigods who pick magic as their power though, as well as ALL godlings now have less PPE than most level 1 Arcanists.



How so?
A godling who takes the magic power gets 3d4x10+20, +4d6/ level (and can get more PPE just as any other member of the magic-using class can).
A Shifter gets 2d6x10+10, + 2d6/ level (plus whatever they get from a pact)
Ley Line Walkers start with more, but over the course of time it evens out. 3d6x10+20+PE, +3d6/ level

A demi-god Ley Line Walker would add another 4d6 to that. I fail to see the problem.

Right
And a Demigod who picks #10 as their power, but is another OCC (lets say, the pick Rogue Scholar) has all the magic powers of their chosen class (lets say shifter)...
but only 4d6 PPE?
That doesn't make sense.


Umm no you missed something


power #10 says.
"Magic Powers: The character has all the abilities of a practitioner of magic. "
Remember most magic using occs have base PPE as a class ability. That means they always have the base ppe of the magic occ chosen in number 10.

So a demigod with power #10 shifter could never have less than 2d6X10+10 plus P.E. for his base PPE, as that is the part of the abilities copied. He also gains an extra 4d6 PPE for being a demigod.

Now then here is some food for thought. If a godling chose number #10 shifter he would have a base PPE of 2d6X10+10+pe then has a racial ppe of 3d4X10+20 So power 10 grants base ppe, while and a magic user has racial ppe that is not stated as base ppe. So a gm could rule that they stack as only one is base ppe.


What would happen to the ppe if two 10s are chosen?
Or a demigod has 10 and a magic occ?

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:28 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:


Why not?
It seems logical enough that they would gain the magical OCCs PPE, plus 4d6.
Godlings who choose magical abilities get the amount stated for godlings.

Demigods who pick magic as their power though, as well as ALL godlings now have less PPE than most level 1 Arcanists.



How so?
A godling who takes the magic power gets 3d4x10+20, +4d6/ level (and can get more PPE just as any other member of the magic-using class can).
A Shifter gets 2d6x10+10, + 2d6/ level (plus whatever they get from a pact)
Ley Line Walkers start with more, but over the course of time it evens out. 3d6x10+20+PE, +3d6/ level

A demi-god Ley Line Walker would add another 4d6 to that. I fail to see the problem.

Right
And a Demigod who picks #10 as their power, but is another OCC (lets say, the pick Rogue Scholar) has all the magic powers of their chosen class (lets say shifter)...
but only 4d6 PPE?
That doesn't make sense.


Umm no you missed something


power #10 says.
"Magic Powers: The character has all the abilities of a practitioner of magic. "
Remember most magic using occs have base PPE as a class ability. That means they always have the base ppe of the magic occ chosen in number 10.

So a demigod with power #10 shifter could never have less than 2d6X10+10 plus P.E. for his base PPE, as that is the part of the abilities copied. He also gains an extra 4d6 PPE for being a demigod.

Now then here is some food for thought. If a godling chose number #10 shifter he would have a base PPE of 2d6X10+10+pe then has a racial ppe of 3d4X10+20 So power 10 grants base ppe, while and a magic user has racial ppe that is not stated as base ppe. So a gm could rule that they stack as only one is base ppe.


What would happen to the ppe if two 10s are chosen?
Or a demigod has 10 and a magic occ?

Ummm you seem to have missed the entire thread :lol:
The entire point of the discussion was the very question of if the PPE and other abilities were counted or if it only counted spell casting powers.
So your answer is simply a circular way of saying that you are in the camp that says that "yes, you get the PPE". But at least we now know that you are in favor of getting all the abilities. 1 through whatever

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:35 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Getting all the abilities 1-whatever is the only correct interpretation, and everyone who says otherwise is wrong. :D

So yes, they get the PPE, and the other bonuses.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:59 am
  

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Knight

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eliakon wrote:
Ummm you seem to have missed the entire thread :lol:
The entire point of the discussion was the very question of if the PPE and other abilities were counted or if it only counted spell casting powers.
So your answer is simply a circular way of saying that you are in the camp that says that "yes, you get the PPE". But at least we now know that you are in favor of getting all the abilities. 1 through whatever

It literally says they get all abilties of the spell casting class. So it is not circular it is reading that they say they have every abilty then looking at the abilites of shiftes and seeing PPE base is an abilty.


The power says it grants all abilties so all abilies listed are gained by it. That includes PPE. There is no wiggle room we are told they have all class abilities of the occ chosen.
So if you where to pick ley line walker you would gain abilites 1-13 of ley line walkers ability number 12 of ley line walker is PPE.

If you pick shifter you get abilities 1-12 ability 11 is PPE.
Note this is not new even in the original write up base ppe is an ability of magic using occs.

See the trend.
They also gain initial spells from the class and all spells equal to level. I mean it is all in the book black and white, I see no room for debate about what all abilities mean.

Saying they only get part of the abilities (spell casting) is a house rule.
Simply they are hands down better spell casters than the chosen spell caster.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:57 pm
  

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Palladin

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eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
I suppose a Demigod whose power was magical abilities but didn't select a magic OCC wouldn't be able to cast may of the spells they learned?



Why not?
It seems logical enough that they would gain the magical OCCs PPE, plus 4d6.
Godlings who choose magical abilities get the amount stated for godlings.

Demigods who pick magic as their power though, as well as ALL godlings now have less PPE than most level 1 Arcanists.



How so?
A godling who takes the magic power gets 3d4x10+20, +4d6/ level (and can get more PPE just as any other member of the magic-using class can).
A Shifter gets 2d6x10+10, + 2d6/ level (plus whatever they get from a pact)
Ley Line Walkers start with more, but over the course of time it evens out. 3d6x10+20+PE, +3d6/ level

A demi-god Ley Line Walker would add another 4d6 to that. I fail to see the problem.

Right
And a Demigod who picks #10 as their power, but is another OCC (lets say, the pick Rogue Scholar) has all the magic powers of their chosen class (lets say shifter)...
but only 4d6 PPE?
That doesn't make sense.




Which is why the 4d6 is ADDED to the rest.
See?
I think reading comprehension is a marvelous thing.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:11 pm
  

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Knight

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Blue_Lion wrote:
power #10 says.
"Magic Powers: The character has all the abilities of a practitioner of magic. "
Remember most magic using occs have base PPE as a class ability. That means they always have the base ppe of the magic occ chosen in number 10.

So a demigod with power #10 shifter could never have less than 2d6X10+10 plus P.E. for his base PPE, as that is the part of the abilities copied. He also gains an extra 4d6 PPE for being a demigod.

Now then here is some food for thought. If a godling chose number #10 shifter he would have a base PPE of 2d6X10+10+pe then has a racial ppe of 3d4X10+20 So power 10 grants base ppe, while and a magic user has racial ppe that is not stated as base ppe. So a gm could rule that they stack as only one is base ppe.

I prefer to treat them as separate pools which regenerate independently :) To tap into their non-OCC pool, you could treat it like borrowing PPE from another person.

Blue_Lion wrote:
What would happen to the ppe if two 10s are chosen?

Three pools!

Blue_Lion wrote:
Or a demigod has 10 and a magic occ?

Two pools, with 4D6 added to each.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:33 pm
  

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Knight

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Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
power #10 says.
"Magic Powers: The character has all the abilities of a practitioner of magic. "
Remember most magic using occs have base PPE as a class ability. That means they always have the base ppe of the magic occ chosen in number 10.

So a demigod with power #10 shifter could never have less than 2d6X10+10 plus P.E. for his base PPE, as that is the part of the abilities copied. He also gains an extra 4d6 PPE for being a demigod.

Now then here is some food for thought. If a godling chose number #10 shifter he would have a base PPE of 2d6X10+10+pe then has a racial ppe of 3d4X10+20 So power 10 grants base ppe, while and a magic user has racial ppe that is not stated as base ppe. So a gm could rule that they stack as only one is base ppe.

I prefer to treat them as separate pools which regenerate independently :) To tap into their non-OCC pool, you could treat it like borrowing PPE from another person.

Blue_Lion wrote:
What would happen to the ppe if two 10s are chosen?

Three pools!

Blue_Lion wrote:
Or a demigod has 10 and a magic occ?

Two pools, with 4D6 added to each.

This is entirely in house rules category. There are no examples any where or refences to things having two normal PPE pools.

_________________
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 pm
  

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Knight

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NPC examples aren't required to apply game mechanics. If something says you get a pool of PPE, you get it. You're going to need to find rules about pools overriding or competing with each other.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:48 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
NPC examples aren't required to apply game mechanics. If something says you get a pool of PPE, you get it. You're going to need to find rules about pools overriding or competing with each other.

Requiring the evidence of negative or lack of something is logical folly.

There are no known refences to any charter having multiple pools of PPE including npcs that have multiple magical occs.(a requirement for some.)
Official charter sheets only have one pool even though all humans have 2d6 PPE and mages occs have different ppe. If the 2d6 was a different pool it would be tracked on a mages charter sheet.


So if your theory was correct there would be evidence of it, no evidence then your theory is incorrect.
Lacking any evidince of multiple pools while there are example of single pool ppe.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:48 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
Requiring the evidence of negative or lack of something is logical folly.

If someone wants to ignore the rules saying you get a PPE pool, or wants to introduce a house rule about merging pools instead of having separate ones, then you ened evidence to support that.

Blue_Lion wrote:
There are no known refences to any charter having multiple pools of PPE including npcs that have multiple magical occs.(a requirement for some.)

Cases like Dunscon don't mean that he doesn't have multiple pools, they may simply sum it for convenience.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Official charter sheets only have one pool even though all humans have 2d6 PPE and mages occs have different ppe. If the 2d6 was a different pool it would be tracked on a mages charter sheet.

All humans do not have 2d6 PPE, that is false.

Blue_Lion wrote:
So if your theory was correct there would be evidence of it, no evidence then your theory is incorrect.
Lacking any evidince of multiple pools while there are example of single pool ppe.

Your theory that characters do not get pools lacks proof. NPC writeups are never 100% thorough, they are always summaries.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:09 am
  

Champion

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Give them the extra PPE...otherwise, what is the point of being a Godling or Demigod? They are supposed to have capabilities that FAR exceed normal humans...not just a couple of abilities that may or may not come in useful...what is the XP requirement for the two?

Godlings require the same XP as a Dragon Hatchling for Lvl 15 (Ultimate Edition)

Demi-Gods require 130,000 more XP than Shifters to hit Lvl 15 (Ultimate Edition)

Given that your NPCs should be high powered recurring challenge if you are using a Godling/Demi-God, it makes good sense to add Racial PPE to OCC PPE...

If your Godling/DemiGod is a player character, then you are probably running a campaign where you have Cosmo-Knights (XP scale similar to Godlings; PPE = 1D6x100+1D4x10/lvl), Undead Slayers (roughly the equivalent of DemiGods).


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:32 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Requiring the evidence of negative or lack of something is logical folly.

If someone wants to ignore the rules saying you get a PPE pool, or wants to introduce a house rule about merging pools instead of having separate ones, then you ened evidence to support that.

Blue_Lion wrote:
There are no known refences to any charter having multiple pools of PPE including npcs that have multiple magical occs.(a requirement for some.)

Cases like Dunscon don't mean that he doesn't have multiple pools, they may simply sum it for convenience.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Official charter sheets only have one pool even though all humans have 2d6 PPE and mages occs have different ppe. If the 2d6 was a different pool it would be tracked on a mages charter sheet.

All humans do not have 2d6 PPE, that is false.

Blue_Lion wrote:
So if your theory was correct there would be evidence of it, no evidence then your theory is incorrect.
Lacking any evidince of multiple pools while there are example of single pool ppe.

Your theory that characters do not get pools lacks proof. NPC writeups are never 100% thorough, they are always summaries.

Logically you must prove the existence of multiple pools not a lack of them. Asking to prove something does not exist is logically folly. If it does not exist there would be no refences to it not existing. However if it did exist you should be able to sight at least one example of it in the book.

Please provide a quote that mentions giving multiple pools of PPE because I have never seen one.

Multiple PPE pool would be sufficient importance for it to appear in the summery.


Basically your stance in this is based of faulty logic.

Basically if it exist prove it exists if you can not prove it exist then it does not exist.(instead you are ignoring that there is no refence to it, and official charter sheets do not have multiple PPE pools even though humans get 2d6 PPE by the books.)

Unless something changes it according to the books humans have 2d6 PPE. So all humans have 2d6 PPE for being human but things like magic occs, full conversion borgs and psi can change it.


****Unless you can provide evidence of multiple PPE pools the do not logically exist no matter how much you play word games.***********

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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:59 pm
  

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Knight

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The proof of existence of multiple pools is when circumstances exist to assign more than one pool, except when language tells us not to.

For simplicity NPCs with multiple pools might total them.

For example: an NPC might have 1,000 credits in one bank account, 2,000 credits in another bank account, but be listed as having 3,000 credits for simplicity.

Quote:
Unless something changes it according to the books humans have 2d6 PPE. So all humans have 2d6 PPE for being human but things like magic occs, full conversion borgs and psi can change it.

You just disproved yourself. If it can be changed, "all" does not apply.

Perhaps you are describing the assumed default for human adults. Does Rifts not list different stats for teens/children like other RPGs?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:03 am
  

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Khanibal wrote:
Of those who have asserted that if a Godling or Demigod takes a Magic-Using class (say Shifter), he/she/it then gets the Shifter's beginning spells, as it is a class ability. Do you also include #10 (save/spell strength/etc. bonuses) and #11 (starting & /lvl P.P.E.)?

If the Godling is a spell-lobber, he gets some P.P.E. Does taking the Shifter class provide bonus P.P.E.? If he takes two powers say, Shifter & Wind Elemental, does he get P.P.E. from both classes and the racial P.P.E? Does he get twice the racial P.P.E only or the P.P.E. from both classes and the racial, or just the racial once.

The same applies for Psionics. A Godling who takes two lesser categories as one power and Burster for another, does he get the racial I.S.P for one and the Burster I.S.P. for the other, or twice the racial I.S.P.?

How would you rule?

That's not quite right.
Godling RCC wrote:
PPE: if a practitioner of magic, 3d4x10+20 plus 4d6ppe per level of experience. if not a practitioner of magic, base ppe is 2d4x10.

So I would start from there. if you then choose the magic powers (#10 from that list) on top of that, since the PPE is part of the "All the abilities of a practitioner of magic" I'd stack them. (It's a godling, it's supposed to be uber, and a little extra PPE isn't going to destabilize the game any more than just being a godling already would) If it were me, and the player chose #1, 10, & 11 as his godly powers, and then chose mind melter as his class, I'd still stack the PPE that way, as the godling is still a magic user, and so qualifies for the higher base PPE inherent to being a godling. though, I would council my players against being a psychic character class and choosing option 9. There just aren't enough powers, and you'd max out with all powers pretty quickly.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:58 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
The proof of existence of multiple pools is when circumstances exist to assign more than one pool, except when language tells us not to.

For simplicity NPCs with multiple pools might total them.

For example: an NPC might have 1,000 credits in one bank account, 2,000 credits in another bank account, but be listed as having 3,000 credits for simplicity.

Quote:
Unless something changes it according to the books humans have 2d6 PPE. So all humans have 2d6 PPE for being human but things like magic occs, full conversion borgs and psi can change it.

You just disproved yourself. If it can be changed, "all" does not apply.

Perhaps you are describing the assumed default for human adults. Does Rifts not list different stats for teens/children like other RPGs?

Where does it say you get more than one pool of PPE?

You seam to be lacking evidence while demanding ignoring the fact that there are no known examples of mulple PPE.
Rather than playing word games and attacking please provide quotes that show multiple PPE pools are possible.
You keep saying there are rules that say you get more than 1 PPE source provide the quote.

Unitil you done so you can not prove that multiple pools exist. It is a unsported while theory you put forth claiming it as standard and needs to be proven.

The point about the human PPE was not the amount but the fact that a human has PPE, and that PPE is not in a separate pool than the ppe for being a mage, on a standard charter sheet. (it is an example of a lack of support for your multiple pool theory.)

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


Last edited by Blue_Lion on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:00 pm
  

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Knight

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torjones wrote:
Khanibal wrote:
Of those who have asserted that if a Godling or Demigod takes a Magic-Using class (say Shifter), he/she/it then gets the Shifter's beginning spells, as it is a class ability. Do you also include #10 (save/spell strength/etc. bonuses) and #11 (starting & /lvl P.P.E.)?

If the Godling is a spell-lobber, he gets some P.P.E. Does taking the Shifter class provide bonus P.P.E.? If he takes two powers say, Shifter & Wind Elemental, does he get P.P.E. from both classes and the racial P.P.E? Does he get twice the racial P.P.E only or the P.P.E. from both classes and the racial, or just the racial once.

The same applies for Psionics. A Godling who takes two lesser categories as one power and Burster for another, does he get the racial I.S.P for one and the Burster I.S.P. for the other, or twice the racial I.S.P.?

How would you rule?

That's not quite right.
Godling RCC wrote:
PPE: if a practitioner of magic, 3d4x10+20 plus 4d6ppe per level of experience. if not a practitioner of magic, base ppe is 2d4x10.

So I would start from there. if you then choose the magic powers (#10 from that list) on top of that, since the PPE is part of the "All the abilities of a practitioner of magic" I'd stack them. (It's a godling, it's supposed to be uber, and a little extra PPE isn't going to destabilize the game any more than just being a godling already would) If it were me, and the player chose #1, 10, & 11 as his godly powers, and then chose mind melter as his class, I'd still stack the PPE that way, as the godling is still a magic user, and so qualifies for the higher base PPE inherent to being a godling. though, I would council my players against being a psychic character class and choosing option 9. There just aren't enough powers, and you'd max out with all powers pretty quickly.

As this is one of the few times where we have a PPE base situation and race saying it would grant PPE this does seam a logical interoperation.

Most classes that talk about PPE talk about PPE base, so they are modifying the amount of PPE in the pool.

_________________
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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:43 am
  

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Knight

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Blue_Lion wrote:
Where does it say you get more than one pool of PPE?

This has already been pointed out above. Godlings get the powers of a magic OCC, PPE is listed as one of the powers. Ergo if you have 2 separate powers which give you PPE pools, you have 2 pools of PPE.

Sort of like if I have 2 powers which let me make magic swords, I can now make 2 magic swords. I don't need to be explicitly told I can have 2 magic swords.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:46 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Where does it say you get more than one pool of PPE?

This has already been pointed out above. Godlings get the powers of a magic OCC, PPE is listed as one of the powers. Ergo if you have 2 separate powers which give you PPE pools, you have 2 pools of PPE.

Sort of like if I have 2 powers which let me make magic swords, I can now make 2 magic swords. I don't need to be explicitly told I can have 2 magic swords.

I don't think you get two separate pools of PPE, I think you just get one PPE pool with both values added together. I mean, how else do some of those gods get such high amounts of PPE?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:15 am
  

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Knight

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Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Where does it say you get more than one pool of PPE?

This has already been pointed out above. Godlings get the powers of a magic OCC, PPE is listed as one of the powers. Ergo if you have 2 separate powers which give you PPE pools, you have 2 pools of PPE.

Sort of like if I have 2 powers which let me make magic swords, I can now make 2 magic swords. I don't need to be explicitly told I can have 2 magic swords.

No.
The mage OCC gives a base PPE pool, a godling with gets ppe(not base PPE but PPE) for being a godling

It never says anything about the second source being a new pool. It is one of the few times it is not a base PPE granted. So like the PPE that humans start with it could be over written by the change to the base, or it can be added to but in no way does it prove existence of two PPE pools.

So again do you have any quotes or examples of two PPE pools?

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:10 pm
  

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Knight

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torjones wrote:
I don't think you get two separate pools of PPE, I think you just get one PPE pool with both values added together. I mean, how else do some of those gods get such high amounts of PPE?

Probably the same way they get high levels of MDC. I think a lot of gods have more PPE than could be accounted for by summed OCC maximums.

Blue_Lion wrote:
The mage OCC gives a base PPE pool, a godling with gets ppe(not base PPE but PPE) for being a godling

It never says anything about the second source being a new pool.

Nor does it say anything about it being a merged pool.

Blue_Lion wrote:
It is one of the few times it is not a base PPE granted. So like the PPE that humans start with it could be over written by the change to the base, or it can be added to but in no way does it prove existence of two PPE pools.

So again do you have any quotes or examples of two PPE pools?

CB2p16 "10. Magic Powers: The character has all the abilities of a practitioner of magic."

RUE 119 "Mystic O.C.C. Magic Powers .. 3. P.P.E."

Powers are abilities.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:11 pm
  

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We know that in most cases there is only one pool.
So the fact the do not mention this creating a second one does kind of disprove it. (There is no reason to say a second pool does not exist but every reason to state it does. As I said it is illogical to demand evidence of a negative.)

Again you provide a quote that lacks any evidence that has already been addressed.

Power 3 of the mystic you just quoted provides a permanent base PPE of X. (So this was already addressed in the line you quoted from me and does not prove the existence of a second pool.)


Now again do you have any quote that proves the existence of a second pool?

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:28 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The rules of formal logic are pretty clear on this point.
Axlemania is making the claim that multiple PPE pools exist. The burden of proof therefore is on him to prove that they do exist. It is not on anyone else to prove that they do not exist. Not only does Axlemania have the burden of proof here, but demanding proof of a negative is a logical fallacy in and of itself.

Its not just "rules" for politeness. To do otherwise is simply a fallacy and is no more logical and supportive than citing as proof that the moon is made of green cheese as evidence.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:22 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
We know that in most cases there is only one pool.

Do you? That's like saying because credits are listed, you know they're all in one bank account.

Blue_Lion wrote:
the fact the do not mention this creating a second one does kind of disprove it.

You are told to create it. It just doesn't go out of its way to describe them via count because it's one of several abilities the Godling can get. Nowhere does it say "except for OCC powers which impart PPE pools".

Blue_Lion wrote:
There is no reason to say a second pool does not exist but every reason to state it does.

Wrong. When you are told in more than one place to add a PPE pool, there is a reason to say either not to add it, or to merge it.

Blue_Lion wrote:
it is illogical to demand evidence of a negative.

Yet you demand evidence to negate your single/merged pool theory?

Blue_Lion wrote:
Again you provide a quote that lacks any evidence that has already been addressed.

The evidence is 2 separate instances of assigning PPE to a character according to the rules. That's all you need.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Power 3 of the mystic you just quoted provides a permanent base PPE of X. (So this was already addressed in the line you quoted from me and does not prove the existence of a second pool.)

A godling who gains the powers of a mystic gains that permanent base. Since they do not explicitly lose their preexisting base, there is no reason to think they would not have both.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Now again do you have any quote that proves the existence of a second pool?

That's how it works by default, it is your burden to disprove following the rules.

eliakon wrote:
Axlemania is making the claim that multiple PPE pools exist. The burden of proof therefore is on him to prove that they do exist.

Already proven. Demigods have an assigned amount of PPE from their chosen OCC. The godling power assigns another amount.

Ergo they have both amounts.

If someone started with 2 OCCs, one saying they started with a knife and the other saying they started with a gun, I wouldn't need to prove that the character starts with both a knife and a gun. The burden is on someone who would argue "you can only have just the knife, or just the gun, or the knife and gun merge into a single superweapon".

eliakon wrote:
demanding proof of a negative is a logical fallacy in and of itself.

I am demanding proof of a positive: the idea that pools either merge or override each other. Without such instructions, they would operate independently.

Think if you had 2 different pools of MDC from magical force fields. Why would you assume that they would merge, or one replaced the other, without it saying so?

Would you assume that "spells per day" merge as well?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:30 am
  

Hero

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Axel, come on. There is not a single example of a character having two separate pools of PPE that I can recall seeing in Palladium. Not a single NPC or character sheet has two distinct PPE pools. There are examples of charactetrs addding together PPE gained from a race and from a class, but none of a character having two distinct pools. Having a gun and a knife is not analagous to the idea of having two PPE pools, and you know it, so kindly refrain from using auch a disingenuous argument.

If you can actually find evidence for your position, let us know. Or you could just admit that you chose a bit of a sloppy way to say that the demigos or godling gets to add the PPE from all sources to form his PPE amount and save us all the trouble.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:32 am
  

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Knight

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dreicunan wrote:
There is not a single example of a character having two separate pools of PPE that I can recall seeing in Palladium.

Convenience. Need you list every separate coin a person owns, or just their cumulative wealth?

dreicunan wrote:
Not a single NPC or character sheet has two distinct PPE pools.

Not being explicitly numerated does not mean they don't exist.

dreicunan wrote:
Having a gun and a knife is not analagous to the idea of having two PPE pools, and you know it

The analogy is that if you have 2 sources of things, you get both things unless noted otherwise.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:41 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Axlemania is making the claim that multiple PPE pools exist. The burden of proof therefore is on him to prove that they do exist.

Already proven. Demigods have an assigned amount of PPE from their chosen OCC. The godling power assigns another amount.

Ergo they have both amounts.

No, you have not proven anything.
Since you add PPE gains from all sources to your PPE pool.
Just like you add gained HP to your HP pool and do not have several HP pools
You are making a the claim that the godling or demigod has two separate PPE pools.
To support that claim you need evidence.
That they have two sources of PPE isn't evidence, because almost all mages have multiple sources of PPE, and they still only end up with one PPE pool.

Axelmania wrote:
If someone started with 2 OCCs, one saying they started with a knife and the other saying they started with a gun, I wouldn't need to prove that the character starts with both a knife and a gun. The burden is on someone who would argue "you can only have just the knife, or just the gun, or the knife and gun merge into a single superweapon".

Trying to compare PPE to a gun and a knife is like comparing apples to lightbulbs
Its a strawman argument that relies on comparing something totally unrelated that works on totally different principles that can be torn down because it doesn't follow the rules for the discussion.


Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:
demanding proof of a negative is a logical fallacy in and of itself.

I am demanding proof of a positive: the idea that pools either merge or override each other. Without such instructions, they would operate independently.

The proof is that in every exemplar NPC all pools are merged. And by every I mean every.
Since every mage gets multiple PPE pools (base PPE + PE + level + any other sources) and yet they always only have one PPE pool
Since literally every mage write up in the game has only one PPE pool, and the game only discusses having one PPE pool, the status quo assumption is that there is only one PPE pool.
For you to claim that every source is wrong is a rather significant claim and you need some evidence for that. I don't need to prove your claim wrong per se (though I just did) You need to prove your claim is right.

The Proof is that in every NPC in every book, all their stat pools are pooled.
They pool their HP, their SDC, their PPE, their ISP, Etc
They may have locational SDC for example... but their "personal" SDC is always a single score. Not a set of pools made up of each individual source.

That is the proof of my stance. Literally every NPC ever written up in the game. Ever.

Axelmania wrote:
Think if you had 2 different pools of MDC from magical force fields. Why would you assume that they would merge, or one replaced the other, without it saying so?

Because those are two separate, distinct non-similar objects.
So its not the same. Its not apples and apples, or even apples and oranges, its apples and lightbulbs.
This is the mage and their PPE.
The mage does not have multiple SDC pools from each physical skill they take. They do not have one pool of HP from their PE, and one from their level up, and one from a physical skill.... they have one pool of HP.

Axelmania wrote:
Would you assume that "spells per day" merge as well?

Again, you are trying to compare apples and lightbulbs
You are trying to hold up two dissimilar objects, and claim that because they are dissimilar and thus not identical that identical objects are not identical.


You need evidence to support your case, not strawmen.
And so far all you have is strawmen about guns, about force fields about spells per day... it is almost as if you are looking at anything put PPE to find examples of things that are not combined to prove that things are not combined.
Thats not how it works. You need examples of things that ARE normally combined making multiple pools.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:08 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
There is not a single example of a character having two separate pools of PPE that I can recall seeing in Palladium.

Convenience. Need you list every separate coin a person owns, or just their cumulative wealth?
In the case of wealth, you may well need to list every separate coin if every separate coin is of a different denomination or currency and that information matters. Note that if one has, say American dollars and Canadian dollars, you need to at least know the total amount of each separately, because they have differing values if both are accepted, and they may not each be accepted everywhere. In the same way, one may have both PPE and ISP pools. Both can be used to power techno-wizard devices, but at differing rates, while only ISP can power psionics and only PPE can power magic. Thus, we need to list ISP and PPE separately.

However, every point of PPE, however, is a point of PPE. While you could talk about different sources for the points that make up the PPE pool, that is not a distinction that ever matters at any other point once the PPE is part of the character's PPE pool. We don't have rules for different pools of PPE filling up at different rates.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Not a single NPC or character sheet has two distinct PPE pools.

Not being explicitly numerated does not mean they don't exist.
It sure doesn't mean that DO exist, either. The fact that the other position - that one only has a single PPE pool - does have evidence for it is rather telling.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Having a gun and a knife is not analogous to the idea of having two PPE pools, and you know it

The analogy is that if you have 2 sources of things, you get both things unless noted otherwise.
Eliakon has covered this issue quite nicely as well. Note my illustration at the start of this post, also, to see where you err on this.

Now, once again, if all you really meant to say was that the Godling gets to add the PPE base granted by the choice of a spellcaster to his own RCC PPE base, and that if he chooses two types of magic he adds all three together to form his single ppe pool, then why don't you just admit that this is a case of inexact expression? Quite a few people would likely agree with that position when worded that way.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:28 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
The analogy is that if you have 2 sources of things, you get both things unless noted otherwise.

I believe that this here is true, but you seem to be saying that you get multiple pools of PPE rather than just one where they add together. There are a lot of NPCs in the vast number of books that have multiple OCCs and RCCs that EACH grant a "Base PPE." Can you cite ONE such NPC that has two or more PPE Pools? I own about a hundred palladium books, and I've read them all at some point in the last 20 years or so, cover to cover, every line, every NPC. I don't think I've ever seen an NPC with two or more PPE pools. Not dragons with magic user class levels, not gods with multiple magic user classes, not even the Dragon-Gods with exceptionally high levels of PPE. You obviously have reasons for arguing that you get multiple PPE Pools, please cite the NPC which proves your case.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:40 pm
  

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Where does it say to create a PPE pool? (axelmania you said it says create a second pool where does it say create a pool? those words do not appear in my copy the book.)


I never asked you to provide a negative to the single pool. I asked to provide evidence of a second pool. That is not the same thing. The quote you are using has already been addressed it does not say it is a second pool and can be resolved without creating a second pool so it is does not meet any burden of evidence. (I have provided evidence that 1 pool exists you have provided none that a second pool exists, and said you need to provide evidence of a second.)


At this point your stance seams to be there is second pool that is never stated to exist. So there is no reason for you to prove existence. This seams to be a logical folly as does dismissing examples that should show a second pool that do not.

We know from charter sheets and NPCs that one pool exists. A second pool is significant feature, that would warrant at least being stated or shown at least once. The fact that no one can not find an example of a second pool, combined with the fact that the rules in question can be resolved without creating a second pool means that there is no evidence of its existence. If you can not prove it exists in game then it does not exist. (I have seen NPCs that specify the type of currency they have, such as having X credits in gold, and Y credits in trade goods. Even PC creation specify X in credits and Y in black market trade. So they indicate separate pools of wealth.)

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Last edited by Blue_Lion on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:06 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
The analogy is that if you have 2 sources of things, you get both things unless noted otherwise.

I believe that this here is true, but you seem to be saying that you get multiple pools of PPE rather than just one where they add together. There are a lot of NPCs in the vast number of books that have multiple OCCs and RCCs that EACH grant a "Base PPE." Can you cite ONE such NPC that has two or more PPE Pools? I own about a hundred palladium books, and I've read them all at some point in the last 20 years or so, cover to cover, every line, every NPC. I don't think I've ever seen an NPC with two or more PPE pools. Not dragons with magic user class levels, not gods with multiple magic user classes, not even the Dragon-Gods with exceptionally high levels of PPE. You obviously have reasons for arguing that you get multiple PPE Pools, please cite the NPC which proves your case.

That is why the quote does not prove the existence of a second pool. Because they could be resolved in this case by adding them in one pool, and still get both. (most occs say base PPE, in this case we have a base PPE and a none base PPE, so as only one is base then the other would logically be added to a base, starting point and not be a second starting point. NPCs with multiple sources of base PPE could be the second base over rights the first.)


P.P.E.: If a practitioner of magic, 3D4x 10+20 plus 4D6 P.P.E. per level of experience. If not a practitioner of magic, base P.P.E. is 2D4 x 10.

So in this case they specify the non practitioner of magic has a base ppe of X while a mage has a PPE of Y. This is one of the few times that they do not specify a base PPE.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:44 pm
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
torjones wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
The analogy is that if you have 2 sources of things, you get both things unless noted otherwise.

I believe that this here is true, but you seem to be saying that you get multiple pools of PPE rather than just one where they add together. There are a lot of NPCs in the vast number of books that have multiple OCCs and RCCs that EACH grant a "Base PPE." Can you cite ONE such NPC that has two or more PPE Pools? I own about a hundred palladium books, and I've read them all at some point in the last 20 years or so, cover to cover, every line, every NPC. I don't think I've ever seen an NPC with two or more PPE pools. Not dragons with magic user class levels, not gods with multiple magic user classes, not even the Dragon-Gods with exceptionally high levels of PPE. You obviously have reasons for arguing that you get multiple PPE Pools, please cite the NPC which proves your case.

That is why the quote does not prove the existence of a second pool. Because they could be resolved in this case by adding them in one pool, and still get both. (most occs say base PPE, in this case we have a base PPE and a none base PPE, so as only one is base then the other would logically be added to a base, starting point and not be a second starting point. NPCs with multiple sources of base PPE could be the second base over rights the first.)


P.P.E.: If a practitioner of magic, 3D4x 10+20 plus 4D6 P.P.E. per level of experience. If not a practitioner of magic, base P.P.E. is 2D4 x 10.

So in this case they specify the non practitioner of magic has a base ppe of X while a mage has a PPE of Y. This is one of the few times that they do not specify a base PPE.

I'm not disagreeing with you. (I know, rare, right? :-D ) I'm requesting some evidence from Axelmania that supports his supposition. I expect that we will not get a citation that proves his idea, because I don't believe it exists, but I am open to being proven wrong. I mean, the evidence in this situation wouldn't be hard, just one NPC with two "PPE:" lines. Surely, if it was going to exist anywhere, it would exist in one of the categories I mentioned above, right? Yet, when I looked through the list of gods, a goodly portion of whom have at least one spell-caster class, and none of them have multiple pools, not in Dragons and Gods, not in the Conversion Books, not in Old Ones, not even in Hades or Dyval. And yes, I realize that NPCs aren't game legal characters, and by that I mean that you would never get a character with those stats and abilities by following the rules in the books.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:35 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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eliakon wrote:
you add PPE gains from all sources to your PPE pool.

If worded additively, sure.

If I have PS 10 and get a new arm with PS 12 though, I don't add them, they coexist.

eliakon wrote:
all mages have multiple sources of PPE, and they still only end up with one PPE pool.

How can you be sure of that?

eliakon wrote:
Trying to compare PPE to a gun and a knife is like comparing apples to lightbulbs

Which is perfectly fine, because both are small objects that can be thrown at enemies.

eliakon wrote:
Its a strawman argument that relies on comparing something totally unrelated that works on totally different principles that can be torn down because it doesn't follow the rules for the discussion.

You don't understand what 'strawman argument' means, if you think the phrase applies to using a comparison or metaphor that others disagree with.

eliakon wrote:
in every exemplar NPC all pools are merged. And by every I mean every.
Since every mage gets multiple PPE pools (base PPE + PE + level + any other sources) and yet they always only have one PPE pool

Merged wealth notations don't mean all your bank accuonts have the same interest rate.

eliakon wrote:
Literally every NPC ever written up in the game. Ever.

Writeups omit things. Or do you think only one charcter in Mercenaries has chi because only one character lists it?

eliakon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Would you assume that "spells per day" merge as well?

Again, you are trying to compare apples and lightbulbs
You are trying to hold up two dissimilar objects,
and claim that because they are dissimilar and thus not identical
that identical objects are not identical.

Spells per day was the precursor to PPE. There is an obvious similarity here. I really don't understand where you got the idea I made such a claim.

eliakon wrote:
You need evidence to support your case, not strawmen.
And so far all you have is strawmen about guns, about force fields about spells per day... it is almost as if you are looking at anything put PPE to find examples of things that are not combined to prove that things are not combined.

Yeah, you REALLY have no idea how to use that phrase. Analogies are not strawmen.

Strawmanning would be "eliakon said B" when you did not say B.

dreicunan wrote:
We don't have rules for different pools of PPE filling up at different rates.

Sure we do. Some OCCs have heightened PPE recovery rates, so the PPE they provide refills quickly while the PPE from OCCs without heightened rates does not.

torjones wrote:
There are a lot of NPCs in the vast number of books that have multiple OCCs and RCCs that EACH grant a "Base PPE."
Can you cite ONE such NPC that has two or more PPE Pools?

If you stack 2 things, only one of them can remain a base.

torjones wrote:
You obviously have reasons for arguing that you get multiple PPE Pools, please cite the NPC which proves your case.

My argument is that NPC summaries will merge multiple pools of PPE and multiple pools of credits into a single amount for convenience. Sort of like we are often told "credits in black market items" rather than specifying what those items are. Summaries go for brevity, so I don't expect to see everything massively broken down.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Where does it say to create a PPE pool? (axelmania you said it says create a second pool where does it say create a pool? those words do not appear in my copy the book.)

What verb would you prefer?

Blue_Lion wrote:
A second pool is significant feature, that would warrant at least being stated or shown at least once.
Significance is subjective.

Blue_Lion wrote:
the rules in question can be resolved without creating a second pool

How? "I have an epic PPE pool and can cast super-expensive spells now because I multiclassed!"?

Blue_Lion wrote:
means that there is no evidence of its existence. If you can not prove it exists in game then it does not exist.

The proof is in the instructions. OCCs assign PPE pools. Unless we are told not to assign them, or to merge them, we should keep them intact as they are assigned.

Blue_Lion wrote:
(I have seen NPCs that specify the type of currency they have, such as having X credits in gold, and Y credits in trade goods. Even PC creation specify X in credits and Y in black market trade. So they indicate separate pools of wealth.)

Sometimes, sure, but even then it's not as detailed as it could be. How many sacks of gold? In what pocket?


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