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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:12 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
So the ubiquitous power of Astral Projection... Seems simple enough and yet it is one of the "Terrible Triad" powers that causes the most discussion, debate, argument and headache. (The other two powers are Sixth Sense and Telekinesis)

I think the issue is that the power as written has several issues that are rather easily abused and several hugely grey areas. I will adress these in order and then see if people have suggestions on ways to rectify them or what ever.

The first is the time dialation while I am fairly sure that the 1 minute/1 week is only supposed to apply while on the actual astral plane... it is often argued that co-existance is a layer of the Astral Plane and thus anyone and everyone has the same level of dialation.
Which runs into the issue of making an astral traveler litterally undetectable and at the same time making them useless for finding anything that is not totally stationary.

The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.
This more than any other issue seems to generate more debate and arguments. Specifically it boils down to the tension between the two sentences "any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact." and "they can generally only affect the physical world ... by Sensitive psionic powers" with a side order of "what is sensitive". The "what is sensitive" is mentioned because the only form of Empathy that can affect others is Empathic Projection... a Super Psionic power. It also raises the question of "what about the vast array of specialized telepathic abilities in the games"



The third issue is the silver cord. Specifically things like: Can it be tracked? Can it be seen? How far does it run? Can it be attacked at any length or just right by the psi?
This is rather non-trivial. If your cord is always there and visible its whole length that makes spying harder... as you leave a bright shining silver cord behind you that can act as a rather HUGE tip of. It also makes astral spies vulnerable to counter strikes on undefended cords.


The fourth issue is magic. While the text seems to imply that while magic only works one direction...specifically while the text states that magic in the Real World affects the Astral it does not state the reverse...which is probably a good thing given the next issue.

The fifth issue is what I call the "immunity issue". Specifically it is that while virtually everyone with Astral Travel is going to be a psi and thus almost overwhelmingly be equiped to deal with people in the material plane... the vast vast majority of people in the material plane will not have any way of dealing with astral intruders. This can make the power increadibly powerful to a near game breaking level by allowing it to be used with impunity by psis against their less equiped foes.


So... my question is this...
What are other peoples thoughts on these issues? How have you adressed them in your games? What do you suggest as "best practices" that I can adopt to help keep the power avaliable to my players with out disrupting the games nor requiring implausable levels of astral peril?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:06 am
  

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Knight

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None of the powers you mention have caused an augment in any game I have played.

point 1 is easy to address with a simple GM call. I would say as you are coexisting on two planes you would use the time flow for the physical plane, other wise you would not be able to really be an observer or communicate with people on the physical plane.

I think you know my opinion on the second point. As to what is sensitive I just go with the power category-I would consider communication a form of affecting people so telepathy seams to cover that and is in the sensitive power.


Third point-I would rule that on the astral plane it only exists for a short distance before it returns to your physical body to the physical plane. while coexisting it will lead all the way to your physical body.

Fourth point-I would rule that magic can be used by an actually projecting mage but would only affect astral bodies(astral active things) same as I would rule physical psi powers. This keeps astral projection from being more powerful than most super powers.


Fifth issue is avoided by my feeling on 2 and 4. If only powers in the sensitive category, and astral based spells do not l allow the astral projecting mage to be any more than an observer and able to communicate with psi. So for most cases the would not be able to do much. (There are a few special exemptions like astral avenger but I never had them in my games)


An issue you did not address would be dimensional travel powers. Can a physical body dimensionally teleport to the astral plane? (I would rule they could if they knew of it but it would require some sort of life support spell.)
What happens when a coexisting person tries to use a dimensional travel power? (I would rule they could use it to transfer their astral body to coexist on another dimension -ei dimensionally teleport there body from rifts earth to phase world.)


Hopefully this post meets what you are looking for.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:56 am
  

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Knight

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Re: Tiime Dilatation
Never been an issue. It seems pretty clear that Material Plane is at normal rate and Astral Plane is separate time rate. You CAN hop between the two planes.

Re: use of psionic powers to influence the material plane
Check out Transdimensional TMNT SB (pg42) and its description of "Astral Projection" specifically allows TK power, empathy, and telepathy. WB12 (forget the page) has the Astral Avenger which calls out additional powers. Also have the Ecto-Traveler OCC (this might be an OCC special ability case) in SB3.

Has anyone actually looked at just what powers do not require physical contact or would actually be used to impact the physical plane?
Per RUE:
-Healing has 15 powers (4 non-self/non-touch requirement that interaction)
-Physical has 21 powers (14 are Self directed, 6 are variations of the same power basically and the remaining 1 has an entire OCC based on combining Astral with a form of it)
-Sensitive has 24 powers (all but 2 are self directed, and those require touch to interact)
-Super has 29 powers (5 require touch, one even requires eye contact)

Now factor in how many Psychics can mix/match. Short of an actual class/race consideration, and just focusing on the Random roll. Majors are 10% chance, and they might be limited to one category or mix/match. Minors are limited to one class (so even if they have AP, they are closer to passive observers at that point) and make up 15% chance.

re: silver cord
Given that it has "Astral SDC" it would appear to be "astral projected". The fact you are -6 to Strike is probably a good indication you can't see it easily. It would seem to run between the Astral Body and the physical one (IIRC).

re: magic
Given Magic can also Astral Project it probably can't interact on the material plane any better than psychics in that sense, and given Tolkeen (or FoM) just doesn't Astral Project mages to be casting spells on CS magic may be more limited.

Re: Immunity
Not virtually everyone, it is a low level spell so I can see mages knowing it. Keep in mind that while their targets on the material plane might not be able to attack their astral selves, the Astral Projector's physical body is vulnerable (possessing entities, actual attack, etc) and they might meet other incorporeal entities who might not take kindly to them.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:04 pm
  

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Never had an issue on any of the points given *shrug*.
In fact said points have been major plot points and added to the game's flavour and depth.
I see no reason to complain about or fix this power.
Then again, I never Rules Lawyer (though I will ask for clairification on how the GM interprets Astral Projection and then run with it), and I tell rules lawyers where the door is.

Rule #1. The GM is always right when it comes to any ruling.
Rule #2. See rule # 1.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:13 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
The first is the time dialation while I am fairly sure that the 1 minute/1 week is only supposed to apply while on the actual astral plane... it is often argued that co-existance is a layer of the Astral Plane and thus anyone and everyone has the same level of dialation.

Greetings and Salutations. I'll answer with some book references, as well as my opinions as I feel warranted. Note: Book references will usually have page numbers and quotes attached.

The Astral Plane and Material Plane are different planes, though both are forms of Astral Projection. One notable distinguishing feature will be the use of capitalization. Palladium, in an attempt to clearly identify their various terms, started using proper nouns. RUE, page 171, first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the Astral Projection power: "There are two levels of Astral Projection, coexistence (physical body and spirit form) in the material world and/or the Astral Plane (another dimension)." You'll even see the term "Material Plane" (capitals) used later in the paragraph. Start of the sixth paragraph (same book, page, section) has a bold section starting with: "Entering the Astral Plane ...". This sets up a clear distinction between the two.

Now, to answer the question, third paragraph (same book, page, section) reads: "(Note: One minute of our time is equal to one week in the Astral Plane)." This tells us exactly where this rule applies (the Astral Plane). If there's a similar note regarding the Material Plane (or Astral Projection in general), then I'll amend my statement. Otherwise, there's a clear difference.

eliakon wrote:
The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

I know this already came up in another thread, and ShadowLogan mentioned some references above as well. As a result, I will answer with my interpretation/opinion on the matter.

You would need two qualifiers. The first is that it cannot require touch. The second would be (in my opinion) that it cannot have a physical component that originates from the psychic. So Telekinesis I would, unfortunately, allow. But Ectoplasm, Mind Bolt (debatable), and Psi-Sword I would not*. Since they're originating from you, and you can pass through people and objects, so do those attacks. I'd have to think over abilities that create a physical affect but don't emanate directly from the psychic (such as Pyrokinesis, because moving something with your mind isn't the same as creating a literal pillar of fire that will remain even after you leave the area).

*I would allow Mind Bolt and Psi-Sword to work on other Astral Beings/Forms, but not affect the physical world.

I'd also say that powers such as the various Possessions will not work. Anything that leaves your body catatonic (because your mind/soul is going somewhere else) while you do it is not viable. You'd have to stop one to start the other. For example, I can get in a car and drive south or I can drive north. I can drive a mile south. Stop. Turn around. Then drive north. I cannot however, drive a mile south, then drive north while still driving south. That just doesn't work.

Note: I'm not coming here to debate the specifics of how I'd rule and/or why, but to provide ideas/suggestions as requested in the original post. If you don't like my clearly stated personal opinion, feel free to not use it and please move along.

eliakon wrote:
The third issue is the silver cord. Specifically things like: Can it be tracked? Can it be seen? How far does it run? Can it be attacked at any length or just right by the psi?
This is rather non-trivial. If your cord is always there and visible its whole length that makes spying harder... as you leave a bright shining silver cord behind you that can act as a rather HUGE tip of. It also makes astral spies vulnerable to counter strikes on undefended cords.

For someone to be able to attack the cord, they'd have to have some way to see/track it. The book considers it "the most vulnerable target."* As for the length, the book states that the silver cord connects the Astral Body to the physical self. So the length is whatever that distance is. We know that the silver cord extends even into the Astral Plane (sixth paragraph, final sentence). Nightbane: Between the Shadows may provide some further answers, but I'm not sure (and don't have the time or energy to read through the various sections right now to look for an answer). Beyond that, I'll provide my interpretation/opinion.

*If it could only be attacked right by the psychic, then I'd find it hard to believe that it's considered so vulnerable because then the psychic could easily defend it. For it to be so vulnerable, you'd have to be able to attack it at any length. Your mileage may vary.

While the silver cord does seem to act (to a degree) as a ball of yarn in a maze, that doesn't seem to be its primary purpose (see below for more details). However, as you go forward and backwards, the cord will get longer and shorter as needed. So if you perform a hit and run attack, then quickly head back to your body there probably won't be a trace of it in the area (at least not for long).

I'd say people can randomly stumble across your cord, but that doesn't happen too often. If I hid a line of string in your neighborhood, how long do you think it would take you to find it? Heck, if I hid a line of string in your house, do you think you could find it within 5 minutes? That's if you know it's there hiding somewhere. In most cases, you'd probably find it only with dumb luck, or if I was sloppy and left it somewhere obvious (such as going for speed instead of being careful). I'd probably consider it a perception check of 18 (if the person can see the Astral, which means any psychic). I'd allow modifiers if the Astral Projector is being sloppy (more worried about attacking and/or speed than avoiding detection) and/or if the opponent has seen the Astral Body first (so if I see you, and then you duck behind cover, spotting your cord is going to be MUCH easier because I have a good idea where to start looking).

If someone does find your silver cord, either through blind luck or because you were sloppy, then I'd say they can attack it even if you're nowhere around. However, you'd feel it immediately and know the danger! The silver cord is referred to as an "umbilical cord" at one point (first paragraph of the psionic power). Without it, the Astral Form (which is also referred to as the character's "soul") cannot survive, at least not for long. I'd think of it like an air hose having been cut. You can try to scramble back to safety before it's too late, but it won't be pleasant and you better hurry. For a visual, I'd think of it like the scene in the first Iron Man movie (with RDJ), where he's crawling along the floor to try and reach the heart. So I'd say every action you delay trying to get back to your body is an automatic failure (and you only have a 30% chance, best 2 out of 3, per the book) or death (the book does say you're likely to die if it's severed).

Note: Keep in mind, if the character is taking lots of precautions to keep the silver cord from being randomly discovered, then this will take up more time and eve ] less time to actually use the power in other ways.

eliakon wrote:
The fourth issue is magic. While the text seems to imply that while magic only works one direction...specifically while the text states that magic in the Real World affects the Astral it does not state the reverse...which is probably a good thing given the next issue.

Well, I'd personally say the Astral Form could use magic. However, it would have the same limitations as the psychic powers. Abilities like Fireball would be out. Blinding Flash would be pointless if used by the Astral Body (except maybe to other psychics), but might be a useful tool if used against the Astral intruder. For the most part though, the most useful ones would be the ones that affect a person's mind (or equivalent) instead of the ones with tangible physical affects.

eliakon wrote:
The fifth issue is what I call the "immunity issue". Specifically it is that while virtually everyone with Astral Travel is going to be a psi and thus almost overwhelmingly be equiped to deal with people in the material plane... the vast vast majority of people in the material plane will not have any way of dealing with astral intruders. This can make the power increadibly powerful to a near game breaking level by allowing it to be used with impunity by psis against their less equiped foes.

Well, approximately 25% of the population will have at least some level of psionics. With that said, I can see how it would be an issue all the same. If you want to up the risk though, someone else already mentioned possession by an entity. Or a random Astral Being/Traveler stumbles across their silver cord and decides to attack it just because they're a jerk (see Nightbane: Between the Shadows for some natural Astral Beings). The victims may have a mage in the group (if CS and no mages, they then have Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers for natural psychics of their own). Astral Projection is level 4 spell, so can be cast in 1 action and then it's fair game on both. Curse: Phobia, with the spell caster making the character afraid of Astral Projection* could be absolutely hilarious. These are not things that should be used often. The main goal would be to use a different one just often enough to make the player think twice.

*Technically not in the phobia list. However, if you wanted to be technical, a fear of anyone psychic is on the Phobia list, which would give the character a random phobia of him/herself. On the other hand, Astral Projection is much more entertaining to me.

Also keep in mind, if traveling only in the Material Plane (the safer option), the Astral Form can only go about 27 miles away from the body per level. That's if s/he knows exactly where they're going, and is in and out. If the psychic doesn't finish off the opponents, any psychic (which is 25% of the population) could see where the Astral Form fled. If the party was trying to avoid being discovered, this may have just been a fail (especially if the enemy can call in back-up). While the Astral Projecting character could attempt to take detours (reducing the time and distance they can travel), the silver cord would give the true direction away (if the opponent thinks to look for it and spots it). Note: A decent strategy if you're setting up a trap to lure them in, but only useful if you can withstand/survive the retaliation.

If the character is using the Astral Plane, then there's the risks of getting lost (minimal health risk, but makes carrying out a specific objective difficult), as well as random encounters with Astral Beings becoming far more likely. The book tells us Astral Beings are usually "hostile, evil." So it's kind of like walking through a really bad neighborhood. You might be fine sometimes, but the more you do it the more likely you're going to find trouble.

Anyways, just some thoughts. Hope some of them help. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:52 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
So the ubiquitous power of Astral Projection... Seems simple enough and yet it is one of the "Terrible Triad" powers that causes the most discussion, debate, argument and headache. (The other two powers are Sixth Sense and Telekinesis)

I think the issue is that the power as written has several issues that are rather easily abused and several hugely grey areas. I will adress these in order and then see if people have suggestions on ways to rectify them or what ever.


The description is vague and poorly phrased, so there are indeed issues.

Quote:
The first is the time dialation while I am fairly sure that the 1 minute/1 week is only supposed to apply while on the actual astral plane...


Correct.

Quote:
The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.


Short version:
You can't interact with anything on a physical level.
You can interact with minds, though.

Quote:
This more than any other issue seems to generate more debate and arguments. Specifically it boils down to the tension between the two sentences "any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact." and "they can generally only affect the physical world ... by Sensitive psionic powers" with a side order of "what is sensitive".


"Sensitive" is one of the psychic power categories.
This one is pretty darned straightforward.
The only hangup I can see is the "generally" part, and the only thing that would make sense is "well, if there's a Super Psionic power that's like a powerful version of a Sensitive Psychic power, that'd still probably work even though it's not technically in the Sensitive Psychic category."

Quote:
The third issue is the silver cord. Specifically things like: Can it be tracked? Can it be seen?


Yes, by anybody/anything that can see astral stuff.

Quote:
How far does it run?


From your astral body to your physical form. That's the whole point of it.

Quote:
Can it be attacked at any length


Yup.

Quote:
This is rather non-trivial. If your cord is always there and visible its whole length that makes spying harder... as you leave a bright shining silver cord behind you that can act as a rather HUGE tip of. It also makes astral spies vulnerable to counter strikes on undefended cords.


Sure... where other astral entities and such are concerned.

Quote:
The fourth issue is magic. While the text seems to imply that while magic only works one direction...specifically while the text states that magic in the Real World affects the Astral it does not state the reverse...which is probably a good thing given the next issue.


Right.

Quote:
The fifth issue is what I call the "immunity issue". Specifically it is that while virtually everyone with Astral Travel is going to be a psi and thus almost overwhelmingly be equiped to deal with people in the material plane... the vast vast majority of people in the material plane will not have any way of dealing with astral intruders. This can make the power increadibly powerful to a near game breaking level by allowing it to be used with impunity by psis against their less equiped foes.


Welcome to the basic plot of "Beyond the Supernatural"...?
Yeah, it can be scary when there's extra-planar bad creatures out there that can go after you in various ways, but you can't hit them back directly.
That's like every 5th horror movie plot.
That's when you hire a priest, or a parapsychologist, or a psychic, or otherwise try to deal with the astral buggaboo that's after you.
That's not game-breaking--that's a basic adventure/plot hook.


Quote:
So... my question is this...
What are other peoples thoughts on these issues? How have you adressed them in your games? What do you suggest as "best practices" that I can adopt to help keep the power avaliable to my players with out disrupting the games nor requiring implausable levels of astral peril?


The only real problems I've had with astral stuff is that it usually nets out as Splitting The Party, which is a pain in the butt.
Then again, most players (and GMs) I've dealt with avoided the entire subject because the astral projection descriptions are vague and confusing.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:34 pm
  

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when I read the Astral projection power wording I have to say IMO prysus is completely wrong in his interpretation.

The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

what this actually says is "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact." this part is a HARD rule IE it cannot be broken

They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy. is a "soft rule" that's what the generally means in this syntax. Prysus is interpreting it as another hard rule, but its not. The generally according to the rules of language makes the whole phrase a qualifier IE he is trying to use the generally qualifier to slightly weaken a hard rule, when its actually weak descriptor that lists several examples of things that DO work, but do not exclude other possibilities as long as they meet the hard rule from the previous statement whereas, Pryus is trying to claim that it is an exclusion list of the only things that do work, not an inclusion list of things that defiantly work but is not ruling that nothing else works.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:02 pm
  

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guardiandashi wrote:
when I read the Astral projection power wording I have to say IMO prysus is completely wrong in his interpretation.

The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

what this actually says is "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact." this part is a HARD rule IE it cannot be broken

They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy. is a "soft rule" that's what the generally means in this syntax. Prysus is interpreting it as another hard rule, but its not. The generally according to the rules of language makes the whole phrase a qualifier IE he is trying to use the generally qualifier to slightly weaken a hard rule, when its actually weak descriptor that lists several examples of things that DO work, but do not exclude other possibilities as long as they meet the hard rule from the previous statement whereas, Pryus is trying to claim that it is an exclusion list of the only things that do work, not an inclusion list of things that defiantly work but is not ruling that nothing else works.

Which brings me back to the "its broken" issue.
The ability to make attacks with no ability to be retaliated against might work for a monster in a horror game... but it isn't conducive to a productive game in most other genres. Especially since it requires either having everyone in the world juggle idiot balls and not use this capability and allowing the PCs unfettered access to an amazing ability... or making it so that you basically have to have "astral top cover" 24-7.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:12 pm
  

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Knight

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guardiandashi wrote:
when I read the Astral projection power wording I have to say IMO prysus is completely wrong in his interpretation.

The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

what this actually says is "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact." this part is a HARD rule IE it cannot be broken

They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy. is a "soft rule" that's what the generally means in this syntax. Prysus is interpreting it as another hard rule, but its not. The generally according to the rules of language makes the whole phrase a qualifier IE he is trying to use the generally qualifier to slightly weaken a hard rule, when its actually weak descriptor that lists several examples of things that DO work, but do not exclude other possibilities as long as they meet the hard rule from the previous statement whereas, Pryus is trying to claim that it is an exclusion list of the only things that do work, not an inclusion list of things that defiantly work but is not ruling that nothing else works.

Generally as it is used means- Ussally not counting exemptions and acceptions. So as it is it allows accetpions but the acceptations are not the norm.

Further more when you look at the game as a whole you see there are several times we are told about astral beings that can use powers outside those found in senstive category. So logically they would tell us when we there are acceptations.


So logically it is hard rule with prestated acceptioons.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:41 pm
  

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Folks,

Back away from examining specific syntax and definitions and think about what the author intended. Keep in mind that this particular author was writing for a game. Also keep in mind that this author does not care for writing specific structures with clearly defined lines of demarcation. He writes in generalities, much the same way that Monet painted.

If you try to parse every comma and parenthesis, you're going to be frustrated.

The question is: Do you believe the author intended for a psychic to travel the Material Plane as a Astral Projection and have near unfettered manipulation of the physical world?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:56 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

Here is a counter question, other than Telepathy what Sensitive Category Powers can actually Interact with the Material Plane while Astral Projected?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:15 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

Here is a counter question, other than Telepathy what Sensitive Category Powers can actually Interact with the Material Plane while Astral Projected?

That's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?

I would suggest that if it was as powerful as "any and all powers" then it would have been made a Super Psionic and have a much higher cost as well.

As for powers you can use
Telepathy of course
Empathy
See Aura
Commune with Spirits
Remote Viewing
Read Dimensional Portal
Sense Dimensional Anomaly
All of course passive sensory powers.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:21 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

Here is a counter question, other than Telepathy what Sensitive Category Powers can actually Interact with the Material Plane while Astral Projected?

That's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?


Definitely the first.
No idea why its a question.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:15 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

Here is a counter question, other than Telepathy what Sensitive Category Powers can actually Interact with the Material Plane while Astral Projected?

That's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?


Definitely the first.
No idea why its a question.

Because that is the question.
If it allows for an astral projector to use all sorts of combat psionic abilities across the veil with no risk of retaliation unless the other side happens to have a psychic or a mage with one of the rare anti-astral spells, or one of the super rare weapons that can hurt astral beings...
It does allow cheap and easy risk free combat.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:23 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.

Here is a counter question, other than Telepathy what Sensitive Category Powers can actually Interact with the Material Plane while Astral Projected?

That's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?


Definitely the first.
No idea why its a question.

Because that is the question.
If it allows for an astral projector to use all sorts of combat psionic abilities across the veil with no risk of retaliation...


And if Pick Pockets allows for people to make suns go nova, then it's the deadliest skill ever....
But it doesn't.
And there's no real reason to think that it would.

The book flat-out tells us that astral travellers can generally only affect the physical world with Sensitive Psychic powers.
It wouldn't say that if it meant "Can only generally affect the physical world with Sensitive psychic powers, but also Physical psychic powers, and Super psychic powers, and Healing psychic powers... and you know, pretty much everything. In fact, I'm not sure why we specified the 'sensitive' at all, since those powers are outnumbered by all the other crap that can kill people, because we obviously meant all that too. For that matter, I don't know why we keep talking about using this power for spying, or for locating invisible supernatural creatures, because obviously THE most important thing is that you're invulnerable in most ways but you can still retain essentially unimpeded ability to attack the physical world."

The book says:
"The astral body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy, nor speak to, smell or touch anything on the Material Plane. The Astral Self is little more than a mute, ghostly observer."
There is zero reason to believe that "mute, ghostly observer" means "invincible death machine" or "ultimate assassin."
There is every reason to believe that it means "invisible, intangible form that's virtually powerless to interfere with the physical world."

The book says "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact."
In a vacuum, this might be interpreted to include any power that doesn't demand your physical body touch the target's physical body, but we're not operating in a vacuum.
The very next sentence is the one that says that psychics can "generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc."
There wouldn't be any point to that passage if Pyrokinesis and psi-swords were another way to affect the physical world.
Not to mention, the previous passage says "may use any..." NOT "may affect the physical world with..."
If you can use pyrokinesis when you're astral, the result would be astral fire that can only affect astral beings, not physical fire that can affect the physical world, just like your astral fists can only punch other astral beings, not physical targets.

It's entirely safe to say that picking a person up with TK, or setting them on fire with PK, or stabbing them with a Psi-Sword, would count as "physical contact" for the purposes of the Astral Projection power description.


unless the other side happens to have a psychic or a mage with one of the rare anti-astral spells, or one of the super rare weapons that can hurt astral beings...
It does allow cheap and easy risk free combat.[/quote]

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:02 am
  

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I haven't had the problems with the ability. This is how we have ruled it.

Yes, any psionic ability that does not require touch can be used. However, only Sensitive (and the related Sensitive Super Psionic Powers) can affect anything on a different plane (i.e. physical plane).

You can use Psi-Sword against other astral projections, silver cords, or astral beings, but not against those existing only in the physical realm. Or if you are fully on the Astral Plane you can still use all your (non-touch) abilities against others also fully on the Astral Plane.

So yes, mostly Astral Projection was just used as a passive observation power.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:49 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
hat's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?

I would suggest that if it was as powerful as "any and all powers" then it would have been made a Super Psionic and have a much higher cost as well.

As for powers you can use
Telepathy of course
Empathy
See Aura
Commune with Spirits
Remote Viewing
Read Dimensional Portal
Sense Dimensional Anomaly
All of course passive sensory powers.

I think you missed my point. Telepathy is the only actual Sensitive power that can affect someone on the physical plane while the psychic is MPAP. How can you use the other Powers in the Sensitive category to affect the physical plane? Other than Object Read and Machine Ghost (both require physical touch), they are all by extension IMHO of the "see and hear" things on the physical plane that is allowed. I know they list some powers, but if you know what those powers do its like they just listed them because they are sensitive and not with any real regard for how the MPAP character could use them to affect the physical plane (or vise versa).

They could have reduced their statement to "They can only actively interact with the physical world by psionic powers such as Telepathy", which would be a lot clearer than "generally only affect the phsycial world (or be affect from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as".

I would point out that while MPAP might be over powered in some respects, it isn't the only situation with over powered opponents due to nature (Vampires, Lycanthropes, entities). And there are instances where MPAPers are specifically shown to allow for the ability to use powers in such a manner (Ecto-Traveler, Astral Avenger, Transdimensional TMNT's AP spell). Any attempt to limit the general use of MPAP is a house rule, as text does allow any power that doesn't require touch-touch (like Object Read) vs range (like Mind Bolt or Telepathy).

As a house rule you can either:
A. Create two levels of AP, Simple and Superior. Simple would be the one with limitations and easily available, but Superior being the generous book version and put some requirements (Level, pre-req. power, maybe limited to certain alignments)
B. Something exists to discourage psychics from using powers to interact with the physical plane (other entities or certain powers operate differently producing side-effects or reduced potency or increased ISP cost)
C. Put an Alignment Restriction on Astral Projection (or just MPAP), this would prevent certain forms of abuse I would think ("fair play" and such type alignments).
D. Create tech devices that work on MPAP to keep them out/away (or have it as an unintended side effect of some items). We know that psychic sensing instruments exist (SNARLS, CS has a scanner) and other items (Caliber-X, Amaki Gizmoteers). We also know that technology can "block" some psychic powers (either by design or unintended). So it would not be completely "out there".


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:38 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
hat's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?

I would suggest that if it was as powerful as "any and all powers" then it would have been made a Super Psionic and have a much higher cost as well.

As for powers you can use
Telepathy of course
Empathy
See Aura
Commune with Spirits
Remote Viewing
Read Dimensional Portal
Sense Dimensional Anomaly
All of course passive sensory powers.

I think you missed my point. Telepathy is the only actual Sensitive power that can affect someone on the physical plane while the psychic is MPAP. How can you use the other Powers in the Sensitive category to affect the physical plane? Other than Object Read and Machine Ghost (both require physical touch), they are all by extension IMHO of the "see and hear" things on the physical plane that is allowed. I know they list some powers, but if you know what those powers do its like they just listed them because they are sensitive and not with any real regard for how the MPAP character could use them to affect the physical plane (or vise versa).

They could have reduced their statement to "They can only actively interact with the physical world by psionic powers such as Telepathy", which would be a lot clearer than "generally only affect the phsycial world (or be affect from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as".

I would point out that while MPAP might be over powered in some respects, it isn't the only situation with over powered opponents due to nature (Vampires, Lycanthropes, entities). And there are instances where MPAPers are specifically shown to allow for the ability to use powers in such a manner (Ecto-Traveler, Astral Avenger, Transdimensional TMNT's AP spell). Any attempt to limit the general use of MPAP is a house rule, as text does allow any power that doesn't require touch-touch (like Object Read) vs range (like Mind Bolt or Telepathy).

As a house rule you can either:
A. Create two levels of AP, Simple and Superior. Simple would be the one with limitations and easily available, but Superior being the generous book version and put some requirements (Level, pre-req. power, maybe limited to certain alignments)
B. Something exists to discourage psychics from using powers to interact with the physical plane (other entities or certain powers operate differently producing side-effects or reduced potency or increased ISP cost)
C. Put an Alignment Restriction on Astral Projection (or just MPAP), this would prevent certain forms of abuse I would think ("fair play" and such type alignments).
D. Create tech devices that work on MPAP to keep them out/away (or have it as an unintended side effect of some items). We know that psychic sensing instruments exist (SNARLS, CS has a scanner) and other items (Caliber-X, Amaki Gizmoteers). We also know that technology can "block" some psychic powers (either by design or unintended). So it would not be completely "out there".

Because changing the rules to say they can only affect it with telepathy would negate several pre-existing exemptions.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:42 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
That's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?


Definitely the first.
No idea why its a question.

Because that is the question.
If it allows for an astral projector to use all sorts of combat psionic abilities across the veil with no risk of retaliation...


And if Pick Pockets allows for people to make suns go nova, then it's the deadliest skill ever....
But it doesn't.
And there's no real reason to think that it would.

<snip>
I am suspecting that you are not following the conversation here and simply responding to posts that seem to challange your views.
Because it IS the entire question here.
Your statements seeming to imply a blithe assumption that it is not and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot which does not help the conversation either.
The premise that it is a question is based on the previous sentance that allows the use of any power that does not require touch. That sentance is an imperative as it has no qualifiers. the argument then goes that sensative powers, with a qualifer like generally, mean that "generally you can only use sensitive powers excepting other powers that do not require touch"

Hence the reason for a discussion.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:08 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
That's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?


Definitely the first.
No idea why its a question.

Because that is the question.
If it allows for an astral projector to use all sorts of combat psionic abilities across the veil with no risk of retaliation...


And if Pick Pockets allows for people to make suns go nova, then it's the deadliest skill ever....
But it doesn't.
And there's no real reason to think that it would.

<snip>
I am suspecting that you are not following the conversation here and simply responding to posts that seem to challange your views.
Because it IS the entire question here.
Your statements seeming to imply a blithe assumption that it is not and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot which does not help the conversation either.
The premise that it is a question is based on the previous sentance that allows the use of any power that does not require touch. That sentance is an imperative as it has no qualifiers. the argument then goes that sensative powers, with a qualifer like generally, mean that "generally you can only use sensitive powers excepting other powers that do not require touch"

Hence the reason for a discussion.

To me the fallowing sentence after the allow the use of psi powers seams kind of like a patch to fix something broken while trying to not negate pre-existing exceptions.

With out the use of psi powers an mind Melter who encountered something that can attack him would be fairly helpless. I see no reason to not allow psi powers to affect things that are astral active and this means a astral projecting mind Melter would be able to fight fairly well against other astral bodies.

However allowing them to use mind bolt from astral plane against people that can not affect them would be major imbalance.

At the same time allowing a astral projecting charger be attacked by some one with psi(or magic) and not be able to respond is broken.

So by limiting it to affect them while astral projecting on the physical plane allows for the intent of being an observer and avoids the imbalanced cross shooting.

However if they put it as a flat limit without the word generally things like astral avenger and a few dimensional beings that had the special ability to do that would be negated.

So what we have is-they can use there powers while astral projecting but are limited to the use sensitive powers to affect the physical world. The included an option for possible exceptions for pre-existing exceptions.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


Last edited by Blue_Lion on Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:00 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
That's the point of my question.
Specifically is Astral Projection supposed to be a power of passive observation (which seems likely since it is a sensitive power)
Or is it supposed to be a power that allows for cheap and easy risk free combat?


Definitely the first.
No idea why its a question.

Because that is the question.
If it allows for an astral projector to use all sorts of combat psionic abilities across the veil with no risk of retaliation...


And if Pick Pockets allows for people to make suns go nova, then it's the deadliest skill ever....
But it doesn't.
And there's no real reason to think that it would.

<snip>
I am suspecting that you are not following the conversation here and simply responding to posts that seem to challange your views.
Because it IS the entire question here.
Your statements seeming to imply a blithe assumption that it is not and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot which does not help the conversation either.


Nothing blithe about it, and nothing assuming.

Quote:
The premise that it is a question is based on the previous sentance that allows the use of any power that does not require touch.


The previous sentence does not allow the use of any power that does not require touch to affect the material world.
That's why I'm confused--because you're apparently misreading that sentence... even though I've already pointed out that's not what it means.

The sentence is this:
"A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact."
There is NOTHING in that sentence that refers to using powers to affect the material plane, only a mention that such powers can be used.
The next sentence, on the other hand, directly addresses what powers can be used to affect the material plane, and that addressment restricts the powers to Sensitive.

To be extra clear:
a) Using psychic powers
IS NOT THE SAME AS
b) Affecting the Material Plane.

You can use TK when you're astral; you just can't touch or affect the material plane with it.
We're NEVER ONCE told that we can, and we ARE told that we cannot.
Same with Pyrokinesis, Electrokinesis, and every other non-Senstive power.
Yes, you can use it. We're told that.
No, you cannot affect the material plane with it. We're also told that.
It's pretty straightforward, especially in the overall context and description of the power.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:42 pm
  

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as i've pointed out elsewhere, things can be sensitive powers in one place, but super elsewhere as well, depending on whether the setting even *has* super psionics. which should really mean that some of the supers can be used as well, because they are still sensitive. not all are listed elsewhere, but at the very least empathic projection is a super listed as sensitive elsewhere, so that should fit in just fine.

precisely where each super fits in is perhaps not so clearly defined (so far as i can tell, post-hypnotic suggestion is healing for some reason when i would have expected sensitive, and bio-manipulation is physical when i would have thought healer, given how much it resembles the ability to put people to sleep which is a minor healing power). but some of them at least should be super, and should be able to affect the physical world, not just astral stuff coexisting in it (incidentally, while the astral projection power doesn't specify, i would apply that in reverse as well; if a power can go from astral to physical, it can go from physical to astral as well).

edit: i would also be inclined to include certain PCC abilities as well. i'm not certain of any i would definitely include from rifts, but i'd probably allow the psi-illusionist from nightbane (shadows of light), as one example. i think palladium fantasy also has a psychic illusionist class, that would presumably work too.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:55 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
as i've pointed out elsewhere, things can be sensitive powers in one place, but super elsewhere as well, depending on whether the setting even *has* super psionics. which should really mean that some of the supers can be used as well, because they are still sensitive. not all are listed elsewhere, but at the very least empathic projection is a super listed as sensitive elsewhere, so that should fit in just fine.

precisely where each super fits in is perhaps not so clearly defined (so far as i can tell, post-hypnotic suggestion is healing for some reason when i would have expected sensitive, and bio-manipulation is physical when i would have thought healer, given how much it resembles the ability to put people to sleep which is a minor healing power). but some of them at least should be super, and should be able to affect the physical world, not just astral stuff coexisting in it (incidentally, while the astral projection power doesn't specify, i would apply that in reverse as well; if a power can go from astral to physical, it can go from physical to astral as well).

edit: i would also be inclined to include certain PCC abilities as well. i'm not certain of any i would definitely include from rifts, but i'd probably allow the psi-illusionist from nightbane (shadows of light), as one example. i think palladium fantasy also has a psychic illusionist class, that would presumably work too.

The rule about limiting it to psi is only found in rifts so you use rifts to determine if it is a sensitive power.(not the unstated setting with a less defined powers system.)
Basically your post is irrelevant to how things work in rifts, because when things are different in setting x than rifts you use how it works in rifts in rifts.

A good example of this would be auto dodge. In ninjas and superspies activating auto dodge requires that you spend a action to start using it, and certain actions turn it off. In rifts if you have auto dodge it does not take a action to start using it but instead it is always available when you can dodge.-Your statement amounts to claiming it requires an action in rifts when the rules say it does not. (so other setting can supplement rifts but can not change the rules of rifts.)

Note: the rule in astral projection about sensitive works both ways. It limits what the psi can affect the physical world with and the physical world can affect the psi with. -can generally only affect (and be affected by) the physical world-that means it is both can generally only affect the physical world and can generally only be affected by the physical world with sensitive powers.

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:24 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
as i've pointed out elsewhere, things can be sensitive powers in one place, but super elsewhere as well, depending on whether the setting even *has* super psionics. which should really mean that some of the supers can be used as well, because they are still sensitive. not all are listed elsewhere, but at the very least empathic projection is a super listed as sensitive elsewhere, so that should fit in just fine.


Agreed.
This is one of those areas where Palladium gestures vaguely at the kind of thing that they have in mind, rather than actually writing it out.
I'd go with pretty much any psychic power that doesn't have a physical effect--that seems to be what they're going for.
Mind-to-Mind stuff, not anything that hits a body or that requires one.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:51 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
The rule about limiting it to psi is only found in rifts so you use rifts to determine if it is a sensitive power.(not the unstated setting with a less defined powers system.)
Basically your post is irrelevant to how things work in rifts, because when things are different in setting x than rifts you use how it works in rifts in rifts.

A good example of this would be auto dodge. In ninjas and superspies activating auto dodge requires that you spend a action to start using it, and certain actions turn it off. In rifts if you have auto dodge it does not take a action to start using it but instead it is always available when you can dodge.-Your statement amounts to claiming it requires an action in rifts when the rules say it does not. (so other setting can supplement rifts but can not change the rules of rifts.)

Note: the rule in astral projection about sensitive works both ways. It limits what the psi can affect the physical world with and the physical world can affect the psi with. -can generally only affect (and be affected by) the physical world-that means it is both can generally only affect the physical world and can generally only be affected by the physical world with sensitive powers.


that would make sense if "super" meant "definitely not also from another category". the defining characteristic of super psionic powers is not that they aren't healing, physical, or sensitive, it is that they do things which are more impressive than non-super psionic powers. super telekinesis isn't different from non-super telekinesis because it does something qualitatively different; but rather because it is quantitatively different. super telekinesis does the same thing as non-super telekinesis but with bigger numbers; more weight, more damage, more range, more objects, more ISP cost, etc.

there is absolutely nothing limiting a "super" psionic from including also being a "sensitive" or "healing" or "physical" power. it is certainly at least a little bit unclear for some of the super psionic powers, which to my knowledge do not appear in books that lack the super category, so you can argue that a given super psionic is definitely not also a sensitive power (and of course, some super psionic powers appear elsewhere and are clearly spelled out as being from other categories than sensitive, and are thus clearly barred from crossing the barrier)

heck, you can't even make the argument that, say... "sensitive" means "not physical" because there are powers that exist in multiple of the minor categories as well (the definitive example from rifts would be meditation, which is now a psychic power from all three minor categories, proving that a power actually can come from more than one category).


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:54 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
The rule about limiting it to psi is only found in rifts so you use rifts to determine if it is a sensitive power.(not the unstated setting with a less defined powers system.)
Basically your post is irrelevant to how things work in rifts, because when things are different in setting x than rifts you use how it works in rifts in rifts.

A good example of this would be auto dodge. In ninjas and superspies activating auto dodge requires that you spend a action to start using it, and certain actions turn it off. In rifts if you have auto dodge it does not take a action to start using it but instead it is always available when you can dodge.-Your statement amounts to claiming it requires an action in rifts when the rules say it does not. (so other setting can supplement rifts but can not change the rules of rifts.)

Note: the rule in astral projection about sensitive works both ways. It limits what the psi can affect the physical world with and the physical world can affect the psi with. -can generally only affect (and be affected by) the physical world-that means it is both can generally only affect the physical world and can generally only be affected by the physical world with sensitive powers.


that would make sense if "super" meant "definitely not also from another category". the defining characteristic of super psionic powers is not that they aren't healing, physical, or sensitive, it is that they do things which are more impressive than non-super psionic powers. super telekinesis isn't different from non-super telekinesis because it does something qualitatively different; but rather because it is quantitatively different. super telekinesis does the same thing as non-super telekinesis but with bigger numbers; more weight, more damage, more range, more objects, more ISP cost, etc.

there is absolutely nothing limiting a "super" psionic from including also being a "sensitive" or "healing" or "physical" power. it is certainly at least a little bit unclear for some of the super psionic powers, which to my knowledge do not appear in books that lack the super category, so you can argue that a given super psionic is definitely not also a sensitive power (and of course, some super psionic powers appear elsewhere and are clearly spelled out as being from other categories than sensitive, and are thus clearly barred from crossing the barrier)

heck, you can't even make the argument that, say... "sensitive" means "not physical" because there are powers that exist in multiple of the minor categories as well (the definitive example from rifts would be meditation, which is now a psychic power from all three minor categories, proving that a power actually can come from more than one category).

Other than the fact the are two different categories in rifts. What decides what category it is in rifts is what category is in rifts by RAW doing other wise is a house rule.
By your logic if a minor psi could choose sensitive powers they could take super powers that would possibly fit in sensitive.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:39 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
Because changing the rules to say they can only affect it with telepathy would negate several pre-existing exemptions.

I was thinking changing the text way back when it was first written (for Rifts or even before) to avoid the entire issue. And those several pre-existing exemptions (by time of RUE) could always be put down to Class features (like CK's cast Psi-Sword at zero ISP cost and Psi-Shield at 1/2).

Personally I don't think there is anything that needs to be "fixed" on Astral Projection. It seems pretty clear, all psychic powers are available as long as they don't require touch. And Psycape (pg33) "[b]Touch means the psionic effect can only be transmitted through physical contact."

Now some clarity on weather those powers with a range of "by touch or [insert distance amount]" qualify as "touch" or "ranged" for MPAP IMHO is needed.

I'd also say that if some GM wanted to discourage abuse of MPAP they could have entities "haunting" about that attack MPAPer (or who defend the physical planers) when certain "unwritten" rules are broken (as far as the entities are concerned). Those per-existing exemptions have found some type of loop hole by those entities "rules" to be able to act as they do.

While this might seem like a power imbalance, Palladium games do come with them (Vampires, werewolves, banshees, MDC vs SDC, etc).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:47 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Because changing the rules to say they can only affect it with telepathy would negate several pre-existing exemptions.

I was thinking changing the text way back when it was first written (for Rifts or even before) to avoid the entire issue. And those several pre-existing exemptions (by time of RUE) could always be put down to Class features (like CK's cast Psi-Sword at zero ISP cost and Psi-Shield at 1/2).

Personally I don't think there is anything that needs to be "fixed" on Astral Projection. It seems pretty clear, all psychic powers are available as long as they don't require touch. And Psycape (pg33) "[b]Touch means the psionic effect can only be transmitted through physical contact."


Sure, but what does "available" mean here?
Again, I don't see why this is still puzzling to people.

The books state that psychics can use psychic powers that don't require touch.
The book also states that psychics can pretty much only use Sensitive powers to interact with the material plane.

The first statement is just about using powers in general.
The second is specifically about using powers in a specific way, about not just using the powers but about using them to interact with the material plane.

The only way that these two rules conflict is if people look at the first statement, and add in an entirely new phrase along the lines of "....to affect the material plane."
So just don't add in that phrase--the writers sure didn't.

Say you have a situation where there are two astral projections in a room with a normal human psychic.
Either of the astral projections can--by canon--use any of their psychic powers that don't require touch. Like Mind Bolt, for example.
So can the normal psychic who's not astrally projecting, the one guy who's physically present.

Which makes the most sense:
a) The two astrally projecting psychics can use Mind Bolt to create astral Mind Bolts.
They can use these Mind Bolts to harm each other, or to harm the material psychic. They get to choose whether the Mind Bolts they create affects the material plane, or whether it affects the astral plane.
The material psychic, for some reason, cannot harm either of the astral psychics with his own mind bolts.

b) The two astrally projecting psychics can use Mind Bolt to create astral Mind Bolts.
They can NOT use these Mind Bolts to harm each other. They can ONLY use these Mind Bolts to damage the material psychic.
They can do this in spite of the rule that "they can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc."
Let's just ignore THAT rule in favor of the rule that states they can use powers that don't require touch, but which does NOT say anything at all about them using those powers to affect the material world.

c) The two astrally projecting psychics can use Mind Bolt to create astral Mind Bolts.
They can use these Mind Bolts to harm each other, but these will be strictly astral mind bolts that cannot affect the material plane.
Likewise, the material psychic can create mind bolts that are fully material, and that cannot affect astral travelers.
In order for the astral psychics to affect the material psychic, they have to use a sensitive power as a rule--something that affects the mind, not the body.
In order for the material psychic to affect the astral psychics, they have to use a sensitive power as a rule--something that affects the mind, not the body.

From my perspective, the only REAL problem here is that people read that sentence about astral psychics being able to USE powers that don't require touch... and mentally adding in the word "to affect the material plane" when those words don't belong there.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:50 pm
  

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it would probably be helpful if they actually put any distance at all between the concepts of being able to use powers, and being able to use them to affect people on the physical plane. they are right next to each other, which *usually* means the ideas are supposed to be closely related even if it doesn't mean that they absolutely must be closely related.

or, to put it another way...

if i say "the guard is not there. it would be easy to sneak into the building." then the reasonable default is not that i'm referring to some other building that would be easy to sneak into, but rather that the building i just mentioned would be easy to sneak into because the guard is not there. i mean, it isn't technically *wrong* if i'm just noticing the guard isn't there and then discussing the ease of sneaking into another building, but the fact that i've placed those two sentences right next to each other in one paragraph rather than separating them would imply that the ideas are supposed to be connected.

so it really doesn't help that they say you can use anything, and then talk about powers affecting the material world.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:26 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
it would probably be helpful if they actually put any distance at all between the concepts of being able to use powers, and being able to use them to affect people on the physical plane. they are right next to each other, which *usually* means the ideas are supposed to be closely related even if it doesn't mean that they absolutely must be closely related.

or, to put it another way...

if i say "the guard is not there. it would be easy to sneak into the building." then the reasonable default is not that i'm referring to some other building that would be easy to sneak into, but rather that the building i just mentioned would be easy to sneak into because the guard is not there. i mean, it isn't technically *wrong* if i'm just noticing the guard isn't there and then discussing the ease of sneaking into another building, but the fact that i've placed those two sentences right next to each other in one paragraph rather than separating them would imply that the ideas are supposed to be connected.

so it really doesn't help that they say you can use anything, and then talk about powers affecting the material world.


I can get that, kinda.
But if we were being told, "You can use any tool in the shed, unless it has a red tag on it. You can generally only use the lawnmower to mow the lawn." I don't think that would confuse many people, even though it's basically the same thing format-wise.
Then again, since this is the internet, it might well spark even more controversy than this has.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:42 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
The books state that psychics can use psychic powers that don't require touch.
The book also states that psychics can pretty much only use Sensitive powers to interact with the material plane.

There are two problems with the "generally only affect the physical world ( [...] ) by Sensitive psionic power such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc;"-RUE (pg171):
(1). if you actually look at the Sensitive powers and how they operate Clairvoyance and Empathy make no sense as examples. You can not use them to affect the physical world. Telepathy is literally the only psychic power in that category that would allow them to affect the physical world in RUE (and RMB, IIRC not even Psycape or PF2 or HU2E). So they could have actually just said "only affect the physical world by Telepathy" is a heck of a lot clearer. Unless you can show how the psychic themself can use any of the other powers (beyond Telepathy) in RUE/RMB's Sensitive category to affect the physical world by the text it really does make the statement rather wordy and confusing IMHO.
(2). it is not exclusive to the the Sensitive category, they preface it by "generally" which IMHO means there are exceptions in the other categories. Generally when playing Chess you do not want to be the one to move your King into the opposition position with your opponent's king.

That is just looking at RMB or RUE. If we expand our look beyond just the RUE/RMB description of the power there are at least three examples (megaversally, 2 of which are in Rifts Books) that I know of off hand that "break" this rule. Sure we could say that those examples are the exception, but they do set precedent that an MPAP can potentially use powers like Telekinesis, Psi-Sword, and Ectoplasm as those can be specifically cited from those examples and it would not technically conflict with the power description (see problem #2).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:12 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
The books state that psychics can use psychic powers that don't require touch.
The book also states that psychics can pretty much only use Sensitive powers to interact with the material plane.

There are two problems with the "generally only affect the physical world ( [...] ) by Sensitive psionic power such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc;"-RUE (pg171):
(1). if you actually look at the Sensitive powers and how they operate Clairvoyance and Empathy make no sense as examples. You can not use them to affect the physical world.


I agree.
There's no way that sentence makes 100% sense as written.
Best we can do is to guess that they meant "use powers to sense" or whatever.

Quote:
Telepathy is literally the only psychic power in that category that would allow them to affect the physical world in RUE (and RMB, IIRC not even Psycape or PF2 or HU2E). So they could have actually just said "only affect the physical world by Telepathy" is a heck of a lot clearer. Unless you can show how the psychic themself can use any of the other powers (beyond Telepathy) in RUE/RMB's Sensitive category to affect the physical world by the text it really does make the statement rather wordy and confusing IMHO.


Of their brief list of examples, I agree that Telepathy is the only one that makes sense with the word "affect." Which is why I think that the word "affect" is most likely the error.
Of the overall list of Sensitive powers... Well, Commune With Spirits could allow one to communicate with certain beings that may be on the material plane in a technical sense, or linked with it, but whom are not actually astral projections. Communication can be loosely considered to be "affecting."
That's about it.
I'd consider the Super Psionic power of Empathic Transmission to be a larger version of Empathy, though, and it would fall under the "can generally only" clause.

I have no explanation for why it wouldn't be worded better, but that's an obstacle that we encounter no matter what our interpretation of the text is.
It seems more likely that the writers abuse the word "affect" than that they typed out the entire sentence "They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.; Astral Travelers communicate using Telepathy"
When they really meant
"Ignore all of this sentence, and just go back to the previous sentence. Also, that part where we refer to the Astral Self as 'little more than mute, ghostly observers,' we meant that you could stab people with psi-swords, toast them with fireballs, hurl them across the room with TK, and so forth. You're basically an unkillable death machine; that's what we meant."

Quote:
(2). it is not exclusive to the the Sensitive category, they preface it by "generally" which IMHO means there are exceptions in the other categories. Generally when playing Chess you do not want to be the one to move your King into the opposition position with your opponent's king.


Right. Generally, all you're going to be able to do is to read minds and such.
But with certain non-Sensitive powers (like Empathic Transmission), you might be able to do other stuff.
As a GM, from RUE I'd probably allow:
-Detect Psionics (Healing)
-Exorcism (Healing)
-Group Mind Block (Super)
-Group Trance (Super)
-Hypnotic Suggestion (in combination with Telepathy or other successful communication) (Super)
-Psychosomatic Disease (Super)
-Radiate Horror Factor (Super)

All of these powers are concerned with just sensing and/or the mind, and operate on the same general principles as the Sensitive powers do.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:08 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
I agree.
There's no way that sentence makes 100% sense as written.
Best we can do is to guess that they meant "use powers to sense" or whatever.

But because we have to guess on intent it really gets into the house rule territory.

I did review the PF2E and HU2E main book discriptions of the power in question. They actually avoid the issue entirely of category and just list Telepathy and Empathy (I'd have to add RMB to this level). For whatever reason it was changed in RUE.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Of the overall list of Sensitive powers... Well, Commune With Spirits could allow one to communicate with certain beings that may be on the material plane in a technical sense, or linked with it, but whom are not actually astral projections. Communication can be loosely considered to be "affecting."
That's about it.
I'd consider the Super Psionic power of Empathic Transmission to be a larger version of Empathy, though, and it would fall under the "can generally only" clause.

I don't think I would treat Commune with Spirits as an example of affecting the physical plane. Or if I did it would be an form of Telepathy (TK has several forms like Levitation). I'd probably treat those beings as MPAP for practical purposes as a GM.

When I think of "affecting" I think of an active form of manipulation that is detecatable by others (telepathy would stimulate a targets nervous system IMHO), where as Empthy is more passive because nothing is actually changing in the environment, only one's perception.

TK (or form of) can be used for communication in several forms. Morse-Code style messaging by a light switch (or blinds) or arranging items or tapping it out by TKing an object to make sound, etc. That isn't to say it couldn't be used in other ways.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
As a GM, from RUE I'd probably allow:

That is as a GM and by extension house rule. Not that I disagree with most of the list, but I probably would not allow Hypnotic Suggestion and similar (I'd say the Verbal aspect disqualifies it) or the Group Trance (once Astral Projected, prior to is fine).


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:47 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I agree.
There's no way that sentence makes 100% sense as written.
Best we can do is to guess that they meant "use powers to sense" or whatever.

But because we have to guess on intent it really gets into the house rule territory.


Not at all.
It gets into guessing what the rules are.
That's different from making up your own rules.

Quote:
I did review the PF2E and HU2E main book discriptions of the power in question. They actually avoid the issue entirely of category and just list Telepathy and Empathy (I'd have to add RMB to this level). For whatever reason it was changed in RUE.


A lot of the time, HU2 is clearer than Rifts, for some reason.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Of the overall list of Sensitive powers... Well, Commune With Spirits could allow one to communicate with certain beings that may be on the material plane in a technical sense, or linked with it, but whom are not actually astral projections. Communication can be loosely considered to be "affecting."
That's about it.
I'd consider the Super Psionic power of Empathic Transmission to be a larger version of Empathy, though, and it would fall under the "can generally only" clause.

I don't think I would treat Commune with Spirits as an example of affecting the physical plane. Or if I did it would be an form of Telepathy (TK has several forms like Levitation). I'd probably treat those beings as MPAP for practical purposes as a GM.

When I think of "affecting" I think of an active form of manipulation that is detecatable by others (telepathy would stimulate a targets nervous system IMHO), where as Empthy is more passive because nothing is actually changing in the environment, only one's perception.


In a vacuum, I'd think the same thing.
But Palladium seems to think that reading people's thoughts/emotions is "affecting" them in this context.

Quote:
TK (or form of) can be used for communication in several forms. Morse-Code style messaging by a light switch (or blinds) or arranging items or tapping it out by TKing an object to make sound, etc. That isn't to say it couldn't be used in other ways.


Well, sure. So could Pyrokinesis.
But it's not the kind of thing that the writers seem to have had in mind.

Really, if I were to house-rule in any sort of psychic power that could interact directly with the material world, it'd be Ectoplasm.
That would fit the real-world psychological lore to an extent, and it would give that oddball power more utility, all without doing a lot to unbalance the game.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
As a GM, from RUE I'd probably allow:

That is as a GM and by extension house rule.[/quote]

Right. Which is the kind of thing that canon seems to require, since they only give us "can generally only affect."
My GM's discretion isn't canon, but using GM's discretion here does seem to be canon.

Quote:
Not that I disagree with most of the list, but I probably would not allow Hypnotic Suggestion and similar (I'd say the Verbal aspect disqualifies it) or the Group Trance (once Astral Projected, prior to is fine).


IIRC, Hypnotic Suggestion can be used via Telepathic communication. If not, then yeah, it'd be disqualified.
Group Trance is funky. I'm not attached to it being included. It's got its own interpretation issues. But it seems to be a purely mental power that doesn't require physical contact.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:38 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
<snip of all the irrelevant material>
My GM's discretion isn't canon, but using GM's discretion here does seem to be canon.

And there you have it 100% in a nutshell
GM discretion is what is required.
And that means that each GM will have to make that decsision based on their own discretion. Because the rule is not "go ask person X what this means"
Which frankly means that this whole argument is people talking past each other as each person is 100% canon.
They are each stating what their discretion would be and they are each 100% accurate in that statement. And as you are litterally incapable of stating that a persons discretion is wrong... then a debate on how someone else is choosing to put the wrong powers on the list is ulitmately utterly futile.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:08 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Really, if I were to house-rule in any sort of psychic power that could interact directly with the material world, it'd be Ectoplasm.
That would fit the real-world psychological lore to an extent, and it would give that oddball power more utility, all without doing a lot to unbalance the game.

In some respects I'm somewhat hesitant on Ectoplasm due to the way it is described manifesting itself ('exuded from the pores") sounds like it is connected to the physical body, at least to interact with the physical plane (MPAP vs MPAP is fine). However the Ecto-Traveler OCC (SB3) would at least suggest it's possible.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Right. Which is the kind of thing that canon seems to require, since they only give us "can generally only affect."
My GM's discretion isn't canon, but using GM's discretion here does seem to be canon.

I agree there is a certain amount of GM discretion built into the system, but it can cause problems when searching for a solution. All that can really be done in those situations is present options.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
IIRC, Hypnotic Suggestion can be used via Telepathic communication. If not, then yeah, it'd be disqualified.
Group Trance is funky. I'm not attached to it being included. It's got its own interpretation issues. But it seems to be a purely mental power that doesn't require physical contact.


Telepathy might work (RUE doesn't address telepathic messaging), depending on how you have sent telepathic messages being received (IINM in HU2E for animal psionics it is said to be "heard").

Group Trance IMHO, while it doesn't require physical contact, does require "williness" on part of participants involved. So at best it would be of limited deployment. Then there is the issue of sharing ISP and the range of the GT-power.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:01 am
  

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to killer cyborg's list, i would add psionic invisibility, which i'm pretty sure is in a rifts book somewhere. you're basically telepathically manipulating people into not seeing you, so it should be totally fine. it is also of limited use (many targets already can't see you, and the type of opponent that can see you and is most likely to be significant (by which i mean psychics) are far more likely to see you anyways), but it should at least potentially work.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:46 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
<snip of all the irrelevant material>
My GM's discretion isn't canon, but using GM's discretion here does seem to be canon.

And there you have it 100% in a nutshell
GM discretion is what is required.
And that means that each GM will have to make that decsision based on their own discretion. Because the rule is not "go ask person X what this means"
Which frankly means that this whole argument is people talking past each other as each person is 100% canon.
They are each stating what their discretion would be and they are each 100% accurate in that statement. And as you are litterally incapable of stating that a persons discretion is wrong... then a debate on how someone else is choosing to put the wrong powers on the list is ulitmately utterly futile.


Kinda.
But we are completely capable of saying that each other's interpretations are wrong.

Like if somebody decides to ignore the passage about Sensitive psionics entirely, while adding in stuff that isn't there ("to affect the material world") to the previous sentence, then it's perfectly legit to say that the person is wrong.

And when it comes to a GM's list of powers that "generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers," if/when a GM comes up with any list that has more non-Sensitive powers than Sensitive powers?
We can say that they're wrong then too, because "generally only" clearly does NOT mean "half the time or less."
Sensitive powers would need to be the majority of the list.
Beyond that?
Well, then it's mostly discretion, and it's hard to tell somebody that they're canonically "wrong" if they want to have their list be "all sensitive powers, but also Psi-Sword."
(Not unless they're claiming that the authors necessarily intended Psi-Sword to be on the list.)
We can point out that one of these things is not like the others, that one of these things just doesn't belong... but it's not something that we could prove, only indicate heavily using logic.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:18 pm
  

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It is funny but the issue of affecting the physical world and being affected by it seams to be the biggest of the original issues.


It is the one that determines if the power is over powered for a sensitive power.
Being able to attack a non-psi with a psi sword from the astral plain with immunity to a return attack is pretty darn broken idea.
Being able to be attacked by a psi-sword for a minor psi with astral projection could also be a really broken idea. hmmm


Dumb tangent lets say 2 psi from rifts go to the astral plane and fight with psi-swords would the damage be mdc or sdc and would they be sdc or mdc?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:31 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
The first is the time dialation while I am fairly sure that the 1 minute/1 week is only supposed to apply while on the actual astral plane...
it is often argued that co-existance is a layer of the Astral Plane and thus anyone and everyone has the same level of dialation.

I'd like to confront anyone making the latter argument. Even ignoring Between the Shadows (which makes it all pretty clear, coexistence and inner layer / void pass at same rate as IRL, only outer layer is different) and going solely by RUE, page 171 the start of the fourth paragraph says:
    There are two levels of Astral Projection,
    coexistence (physical body and spirit form) in the material world
    and/or
    the Astral Plane (another dimension)

The end of the 3rd paragraph:
    (Note: One minute of our time is equal to one week in the Astral Plane.)

The only slightly confusing thing about that is the order of presentation. I think it would make more sense to mention there being 2 levels of Projection (coexistence or other dimension) prior to mentioning the rate at which time passes in that other dimension. But that weirdness aside, I don't think it confuses the meaning at all.

What would be interesting to explore is how to deal with time differences as one passes through an Astral Portal between the Outer Plane (60 seconds becomes 168 hours, so 1 melee round becomes 42 hours...). Unless we're told passing through portals is somehow an instantaneous teleportation, you would be part-through for however long it takes you to step/drive/fly through...

Now, let's say you have a generous 6 actions per round, (ie you act about once every 2.5 seconds) for easy math. 42/6=7 hours per action. So even if it takes you merely 1 melee action for your body to step/fly/leap through a portal on the IRL end, those 2.5 seconds passing are 7 hours passing for the part of your body still operating on sped-up time.

You may have super-speed relative to IRL on the outer plane, but you lose that speed on the other end, so as you pushed your hand/head through a portal, it would be like trying to move further into it (or pull out of it) would be like being stuck in molasses, no?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:35 pm
  

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perhaps portals instantly transport you on contact, with zero delay, provided you have intent to go through.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:11 pm
  

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Perhaps, but that's no fun. I haven't seen any indication. They're portals not teleportation pads.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:40 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Perhaps, but that's no fun. I haven't seen any indication. They're portals not teleportation pads.

That seamed perfectly fun, and easy to deal with.
The portal does not need to be paper thin. It could be the inside of the portal is always of such length that you never in both time zones at the same time. Untill you are completly off the physical plane you are on the physical plane time rate once you are fully in the portal and befor you exit you switch to the astral time zone and the reverse is true as well.

So instantly transfering from time zones. Having your body existing in two diffrent time rates such as the astral and physical plane would be lethal.

The ratio of time is 10080 to 1. or 168 minutes per second so tissue would die especally parts of the brain, the time difference would cause issue with circlatory system.

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Last edited by Blue_Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:21 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Well we know the following
1) portals work
2) portals do not instantly kill mortals who walk through them
3) that magic has a tendency to include 'safety features' that prevent it from doing Bad Things

The logic here seems to suggest to me that if a novel interpretation of a power would require it to violate #2, and thus #1 both of which it does by ignoring #3...
then the novel interpretation is probably not the right one. :lol:

As for how these magic portals work?
That's easy. Its Magic. Yep, that's right a wizard did it.
Physics as you and I understand it got told to go shut up and sit quietly in the corner and thus is not in the picture at all.
As such we can pretty safely rule out that the most likely solution is the most literal applications of hard physics to the situation to find out what happens.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:38 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Well we know the following
1) portals work
2) portals do not instantly kill mortals who walk through them
3) that magic has a tendency to include 'safety features' that prevent it from doing Bad Things

The logic here seems to suggest to me that if a novel interpretation of a power would require it to violate #2, and thus #1 both of which it does by ignoring #3...
then the novel interpretation is probably not the right one. :lol:

As for how these magic portals work?
That's easy. Its Magic. Yep, that's right a wizard did it.
Physics as you and I understand it got told to go shut up and sit quietly in the corner and thus is not in the picture at all.
As such we can pretty safely rule out that the most likely solution is the most literal applications of hard physics to the situation to find out what happens.


This. :lol: :ok:

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:12 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Well we know the following
1) portals work
2) portals do not instantly kill mortals who walk through them
3) that magic has a tendency to include 'safety features' that prevent it from doing Bad Things

The logic here seems to suggest to me that if a novel interpretation of a power would require it to violate #2, and thus #1 both of which it does by ignoring #3...
then the novel interpretation is probably not the right one. :lol:

As for how these magic portals work?
That's easy. Its Magic. Yep, that's right a wizard did it.
Physics as you and I understand it got told to go shut up and sit quietly in the corner and thus is not in the picture at all.
As such we can pretty safely rule out that the most likely solution is the most literal applications of hard physics to the situation to find out what happens.

Well 3 could be a kind temporal air lock in side the portal. The portal being of such length on the inside as to allow you to fully enter it before transfering you. Basically once inside portal it isolates you as a whole and switches the time rate, with magic this can be done instantansly. The nature of magic means you might not even be aware tht all this happened.


If you want to put thaght in it that realy seams the easiest way to justify it, that does not require instant death.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:20 pm
  

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Knight

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The "not paper thin" works, I guess, but then you must interpret portals as tunnels, meaning it would be possible to hide inside them while it's open.

Rather than an immediate shift in time I guess it could be a gradual acceleration of time as you travel through the tunnel.

But the tunnel would have to be very long to avoid problems for very long things going through a tunnel. Imagine a 100ft dragon going through the rift. Just how long is the tunnel? Can battles be waged in it?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:16 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
The "not paper thin" works, I guess, but then you must interpret portals as tunnels, meaning it would be possible to hide inside them while it's open.

Rather than an immediate shift in time I guess it could be a gradual acceleration of time as you travel through the tunnel.

But the tunnel would have to be very long to avoid problems for very long things going through a tunnel. Imagine a 100ft dragon going through the rift. Just how long is the tunnel? Can battles be waged in it?

Or you know... its magic.
You enter one side and then seamlessly you exit the other side. No halfway, no tunnels, no calculating time dialation...
It just works because a wizard did it. Seriously, the power works Exactly like it says on the tin.
I know some people want to over think this and try to apply high level real world physics and professional level analysis of the nuances of the exact meaning behind each word and the proper grammatical construction of each comma or lack there of...
...but its a game people. It is not a Doctoral Thesis, nor is this a detailed reality simulator.
It is what it is, and that is a highly cinematic game that has only a passing relationship to our world. It is a world where magic works, where there is litterally no moral ambiguity, where we have psionics, time travel, an entirely different set of physics and where it is possible to use sling shots to fly faster than light.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:45 am
  

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The technical term used on RUE 171 is "Astral Gateway". It takes a minute of concentration to create on the material plane (context is "Entering the Astral Plane") and uses the phrase "once the Astral Traveler Passes through it".

A gateway can certainly have thickness, for example the "Open Pathway" spell on pg 61 of TTGD has phrase "anyone may enter the gateway" and then "Travelling through the Pathway usually then takes several minutes."

A gradual alteration in time-rate as one travels through that unknown thickness would be the best explanation for how problems are avoided. The thicker the gateway is, the easier it is to believe that you could survive the metabolic problems inherent to having the front part of your body (assuming you are flying forward and not backward as you enter the Gateway) moving at a faster rate of time than the back part.

Although being an "astral body" also probably has something to do with being able to survive non-thick Astral Gateways. People who are not in astral form and simply hopping Dimensional Portals into outer realms might have complications we don't need to worry about for astral bodies.

We are never actually told how much time it takes to pass through (or the 3 dimensions of) an Astral Gateway, only the time needed to create it. So this is a place where the GM might allow some flexibility and different rulings. Perhaps the psychic concentrating to create the Gateway can define its size? In transitioning to 1 melee / melee to 10,080 melees / melee perhaps if you created a 100ft thick gateway then at 50ft you would be at a rate of 5,040 melees/melee?

I'm not sure how to go about calculating the real-world-time needed to get from one end to the other if one assumes a constant rate of time change as one progresses down the tunnel, I'm sure there's something to do with exponents that someone with math skills could put together a formula on it. You're already flying at Mach 1 in the real world, and if you end up flying any slower in the outer plane (can't remember where speed is discussed for that) it would be compensated for by time rate.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:15 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
So the ubiquitous power of Astral Projection... Seems simple enough and yet it is one of the "Terrible Triad" powers that causes the most discussion, debate, argument and headache. (The other two powers are Sixth Sense and Telekinesis)

I think the issue is that the power as written has several issues that are rather easily abused and several hugely grey areas. I will adress these in order and then see if people have suggestions on ways to rectify them or what ever.

The first is the time dialation while I am fairly sure that the 1 minute/1 week is only supposed to apply while on the actual astral plane... it is often argued that co-existance is a layer of the Astral Plane and thus anyone and everyone has the same level of dialation.
Which runs into the issue of making an astral traveler litterally undetectable and at the same time making them useless for finding anything that is not totally stationary.

The second issue is what does "A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact. They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be ffected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyence, Empathy ect: Astral travelers communicate by using Telepathy.
This more than any other issue seems to generate more debate and arguments. Specifically it boils down to the tension between the two sentences "any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact." and "they can generally only affect the physical world ... by Sensitive psionic powers" with a side order of "what is sensitive". The "what is sensitive" is mentioned because the only form of Empathy that can affect others is Empathic Projection... a Super Psionic power. It also raises the question of "what about the vast array of specialized telepathic abilities in the games"



The third issue is the silver cord. Specifically things like: Can it be tracked? Can it be seen? How far does it run? Can it be attacked at any length or just right by the psi?
This is rather non-trivial. If your cord is always there and visible its whole length that makes spying harder... as you leave a bright shining silver cord behind you that can act as a rather HUGE tip of. It also makes astral spies vulnerable to counter strikes on undefended cords.


The fourth issue is magic. While the text seems to imply that while magic only works one direction...specifically while the text states that magic in the Real World affects the Astral it does not state the reverse...which is probably a good thing given the next issue.

The fifth issue is what I call the "immunity issue". Specifically it is that while virtually everyone with Astral Travel is going to be a psi and thus almost overwhelmingly be equiped to deal with people in the material plane... the vast vast majority of people in the material plane will not have any way of dealing with astral intruders. This can make the power increadibly powerful to a near game breaking level by allowing it to be used with impunity by psis against their less equiped foes.


So... my question is this...
What are other peoples thoughts on these issues? How have you adressed them in your games? What do you suggest as "best practices" that I can adopt to help keep the power avaliable to my players with out disrupting the games nor requiring implausable levels of astral peril?


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