How do you handle massive damage to something unharmable?

[Nightmartree]

I was actually inspired to ask this based on another game i'd played, though I believe it still applies to palladium. What do you do when something should do massive utterly devastating harm to an enemy, like a character with robotic/supernatural strength tearing it in half. But the creature is technically immune to the damage?

like say your giant robot grabs a werewolf and pulls, werewolf is only damaged by magic, silver or psionics, so does he just not tear? or what if he had a mountain dropped on him, sure its not supernatural but its a mountain, does his body just not squish? The inspiration was from a character climbing into the rafters of an inn, werewolf jumps and bites his leg, rightly upset character grabs the wolf by the jaws and while wearing an item that massively boosted his strength did his best to pull the two parts of the wolfs jaw apart.

[DhAkael]

The creature "dies" temporarily, but soon after begins to reconstitute / regrow together.
Say 1D4 rounds? Long enough for the PC(s) to run away and find something to permanently remove the beast.

[taalismn]

Maybe a really good chance of stunning the little invulnerable bastard?
Put him in LOTS and LOTS of pain.

"Just because you're immortal doesn't mean I can't find a way to knock you on your @$$."

Take said beastie....shove him partially in a tube, tie and twist the rest of him around the outside, tie his legs in a little bowtie.
Run while he tries to chiropract himself straight, because popping everything back into place is going to hurt like a #####.

[eliakon]

It would depend on the kind of damage the invulnerability and the game.
Hit a werewolf with a tank shell it is going to go sprawling (there is a knock down/knock back table for vampires for this sort of thing)
Pick up a were wolf and try to tear it in half? GM call. If I want the were to be a terrifying foe that will have to be dealt with the "proper way" like in a BTS game or Nightbane or HU Horror? "As mightily as you strain all that happens is the wolf starts to slip out of the mecha/your grasp"
I want to have a Mecha game? I decide that the invulnerability only works up to a point and that after that point "Sufficient force will work"

Some advice on this is provided in the Invulnerability Super Power in the HU book.

[The Beast]

Aside from any potential kinetic interactions I'd have nothing happen to immune/invulnerable creatures.

[Nightmartree]

Some advice on this is provided in the Invulnerability Super Power in the HU book.

Ya, true invulnerability like there I get as a "basically they're one piece of unhurtable" but a lot of supernatural stuff is despite being MD and essentially unhurtable still treated as being flesh/blood, I mean...are vampires immune to stubbed toes? assuming they kick something MD and too heavy to move? or does he stub his toe but just recover so fast it doesn't really matter besides phantom pain?

basically i'm not sure how much of some supernatural creature invulnerability is "this just doesn't hurt it" and how much is "this can't affect it"...probably unclear as heck but...

Its like the difference between zombie flesh and invulnerability, sure the guy with zombie flesh gets blown up ect. but it doesn't affect him and he recovers so fast it doesn't matter, invulnerability just isn't hurt, even though the werebeast are "invulnerable" to certain damage it always played out in my head as more like zombie flesh, doesn't hurt/stop them even though the bullets still hit.

the difference between a certain metal clawed fellow and the guy with a big S on his chest

[eliakon]

Some advice on this is provided in the Invulnerability Super Power in the HU book.

Ya, true invulnerability like there I get as a "basically they're one piece of unhurtable" but a lot of supernatural stuff is despite being MD and essentially unhurtable still treated as being flesh/blood, I mean...are vampires immune to stubbed toes? assuming they kick something MD and too heavy to move? or does he stub his toe but just recover so fast it doesn't really matter besides phantom pain?

basically i'm not sure how much of some supernatural creature invulnerability is "this just doesn't hurt it" and how much is "this can't affect it"...probably unclear as heck but...

Its like the difference between zombie flesh and invulnerability, sure the guy with zombie flesh gets blown up ect. but it doesn't affect him and he recovers so fast it doesn't matter, invulnerability just isn't hurt, even though the werebeast are "invulnerable" to certain damage it always played out in my head as more like zombie flesh, doesn't hurt/stop them even though the bullets still hit.

the difference between a certain metal clawed fellow and the guy with a big S on his chest

The difference is "what works best for this game according to the setting, and ambience of the game"
Even in horror games it can be different.
Sometimes it might be more terrifying to have a tank platoon shoot something 47 times with out doing anything more than blowing away its clothes.
Sometimes it is more terrifying to have it rip in two... and then promptly regenerate before your eyes while saying "Ahhh, much better that finelly got that crick out of my back, as a thanks I'm only going to eat two of you. Any volunteers?"

[taalismn]

With undead critters, I'd say they feel no 'pain', so they can mock you as you put a full belt of 20mm vulcan cannon ammo into them.
With living critters like weres, I'd say that same barrage wouldn't kill them, but it sure would hurt like hell, and a GM might rule that wolfboy has to roll under ME to keep getting up and trotting into the shell-stream and tossed around.

[ShadowLogan]

I was actually inspired to ask this based on another game i'd played, though I believe it still applies to palladium. What do you do when something should do massive utterly devastating harm to an enemy, like a character with robotic/supernatural strength tearing it in half. But the creature is technically immune to the damage?

like say your giant robot grabs a werewolf and pulls, werewolf is only damaged by magic, silver or psionics, so does he just not tear? or what if he had a mountain dropped on him, sure its not supernatural but its a mountain, does his body just not squish? The inspiration was from a character climbing into the rafters of an inn, werewolf jumps and bites his leg, rightly upset character grabs the wolf by the jaws and while wearing an item that massively boosted his strength did his best to pull the two parts of the wolfs jaw apart.

It depends on what the "damage" can be used for.

Using Your examples on a werewolf:
-A Robot won't be able to literally tear a werewolf's limbs off, at best it might dislocate the limb.
-Drop a mountain on said werewolf to pinning it in place (which doesn't require you do actual damage) so unless the werewolf has enough SNPS to lift said "mountain" he/she/it will not be going anywhere any time soon.
-Yes you could pull the jaws open, that really doesn't require one to do damage, they just have to be strong enough

Now if the Werewolf gets hit by an explosion they will feel it and they will be moved. The same goes for projectile weapons of sufficient kinetic energy (railguns, or those with exploding bullets) to be in the M.D range, they will feel it and they will get knocked around by the hit, but that doesn't mean they have to take damage.

[taalismn]

[
Using Your examples on a werewolf:
-A Robot won't be able to literally tear a werewolf's limbs off, at best it might dislocate the limb..

"Let's play 'Stretch-Armstrong' with furryboy here!"
"Arrrggghhhh....you realize...uuurrggghhh...I get free....aarrffffffff...I'm chewing your face off?!"

[Prysus]

I was actually inspired to ask this based on another game i'd played, though I believe it still applies to palladium. What do you do when something should do massive utterly devastating harm to an enemy, like a character with robotic/supernatural strength tearing it in half. But the creature is technically immune to the damage?

Greetings and Salutations. This will depend on things like setting, and how much you've changed the setting. In this case, you're posting in the Rifts setting and discussing include things like "Robotic" strength (reconfirming the Rifts setting). As such, I'll respond with Rifts in mind, and I'll try to answer by the rules and setting as established (at least by the best I know it). Note: Before I go too much further, let me add that Supernatural Damage officially damages Vampires per Rifts Vampire Kingdoms, Revised. I'm guessing some of the others that didn't have this listed would probably now be vulnerable as well, but that's conjecture. As such, I won't focus on the Supernatural Strength aspect as much because, arguably, opponents may be vulnerable to this type of attack.

For the sake of keeping characters immune to harm as an actual advantage, I'd say no damage at all, not even superficial. First thought may be that a bullet hole, or even a series of bullet holes, to the chest isn't that big of a deal, right? Superficial and will heal up soon. Except, in Rifts, we have M.D. attacks, and that's not really superficial. As Vampires have invulnerabilities and are discussed in decent detail in Rifts, I'll be using them. Vampires (and Werebeasts too) are Hit Point creatures. M.D. attacks vaporize large portions of a Hit Point being. Hit a vampire with a M.D. weapon leave massive holes in H.P./S.D.C. structures. Energy pistols are described as leaving volleyball sized holes, while energy rifles leave basketball sized holes (Rifts Sourcebook, one and original, page 6). A 4 M.D. punch can literally rip of a H.P./S.D.C. creatures head without problem. Basically, any M.D. attack would be putting Vampires (and Werebeasts) down instantly. Even if just superficial, vampires can't function without the chest or head, and that'll take literally hours to regenerate (Vampire Kingdoms original, page 24; or Revised, page 31).

However, Vampire Kingdoms (page 35 of the original or page 89 of Revised) tells us how much M.D. damage a vampire can take with only a chance of being knocked down (at least with certain types of attacks, which includes punches from Robots and 'Borgs, which means Robotic Strength). 61 or more M.D. damage will stun the Vampire for a melee round (15 seconds). That's 61 or more damage for 15 seconds ... compared to any M.D. will put them down for hours. In the same section of Vampire Kingdoms (a little before in original, a little after in Revised) they talk about facing Robots and Borgs. In fact, they talk about things like how Borgs can be cocky, and then torn limb from limb. If they could just rip Vampires apart with ease, that would be the kind of thing they should mention.

And I know, that's not what anyone here is suggesting should happen, but that's also what superficial M.D. is. We could house rule away the kind of impact M.D. weapons inflict because of "magic," but why bother dealing the damage in the first place? Well, high impact M.D. attacks will only leave small pinholes in the Vampire because "magic", but a low M.D. impact will rip the Vampire apart because it's in melee and ... uh ... that makes sense? This would be an arbitrary rule for the rule of cool ... which I'm actually okay with, as long as we recognize that. On the other hand, I feel Vampires already have enough vulnerabilities without us needing to add M.D. attacks to the list (the superficial M.D. is actually probably more devastating than allowing M.D. attacks to simply inflict H.P. damage to vampires like their other weaknesses).

like say your giant robot grabs a werewolf and pulls, werewolf is only damaged by magic, silver or psionics, so does he just not tear?

I'd say the werewolf in this example doesn't tear. For a real world analogy, you might be able to tear a shirt apart with your bare hands, but that doesn't mean you can tear a crowbar apart with your bare hands. I'm also fairly sure Werewolves in Rifts have Supernatural Strength now (starting in Rifts Dark Conversion), so Robotic Strength would be at a disadvantage. However, if you can overpower it you'd still be able to man handle the beast, even if you can't break bones or even tear skin.

or what if he had a mountain dropped on him, sure its not supernatural but its a mountain, does his body just not squish?

I'd say no squish, but unless there werewolf could lift the mountain or have some other method of escape, might as well be dead. I'd probably allow the squish if only for expedience sake. Note: In theory, with its Supernatural Strength, it might be able to eventually claw its way out over a prolonged period of time. But I really don't feel like doing the logistics on that one.

The inspiration was from a character climbing into the rafters of an inn, werewolf jumps and bites his leg, rightly upset character grabs the wolf by the jaws and while wearing an item that massively boosted his strength did his best to pull the two parts of the wolfs jaw apart.

If his strength can beat the Werewolf, then I'd say he could pry the jaws apart, but not break the jaw or anything of the sort.

I think allowing normal M.D. attacks to damage (yes, ripping something in half is damage) Vampires (and Werebeasts) goes to making their invulnerabilities rather meaningless. Yes, they can regenerate from the damage that even blows their bodies apart which is impressive, but it's also sloooooooow (at least as far as combat is concerned). After that it's a matter of how many house rules you want to implement to make it work. Vampires (and Werebeasts) being more vulnerable than the books tell us, M.D. attacks creating massively smaller holes and having less impact than the books demonstrate, and/or Vampires (and Werebeasts) regenerating at highly accelerated times compared to what the books tell us for a more cinematic feel. Anyways, that's my thoughts on the matter. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There are rules that Invunerable beings like vampires and werewolves to normal damage can still be blown off their feet/stunned by truely massive normal damage.

However, the proper result of a giant robot stepping on them is an intact wherewolf with a loony toons impression in the ground.

((The realistic one being a 50 foot tall robot just sinking into the dirt because narrow feet can't support that much weight on random ground, but Palladium just kind of handwaves that))

[Killer Cyborg]

are vampires immune to stubbed toes?

Completely.

basically i'm not sure how much of some supernatural creature invulnerability is "this just doesn't hurt it" and how much is "this can't affect it"...probably unclear as heck but...

It's all "this just doesn't hurt it."
Healing fast is covered by bio-regeneration and such.

[The Beast]

are vampires immune to stubbed toes?

Completely.

Not if it's stubbed on wood.

[Nightmartree]

are vampires immune to stubbed toes?

Completely.

Not if it's stubbed on wood.

how about stubbing it on a 2 inch tall god of sunlight?

(no real relevance to thread but a very painful stubbed toe for a vampire)

[guardiandashi]

its just my take on it, but there is a web novel series by CRGangell where there are a variety of "levels" of beings
normal mortals
mortal were creatures
vampires
fey
false immortals
true immortals.

where it starts to matter is were and vampires have certain weaknesses like vampires to silver and sunlight etc.
if you don't inflict vulnerability damage, they effectively have fast healing such that the wound is more or less superficial unless it gets classified as catastrophic damage. stabbing a normal were in an arm or leg is more of an annoyance than anything, cutting a limb/extremity off and if it cannot be reattached before it dies its lost (unless it can regenerate over time (typically weeks or longer) )
false immortals live until dies/killed so vampires thousands of years old are quite possible (exist)
and then there are "true immortals" they really cannot be killed by any known means which means in duels they can have "monty python" things happen.

my view is that when a creature like a werewolf /vampire had invulnerable except /unless x happens then I would tend to go with something more akin to the zombie flesh /fast healing happens as in you might be able to break /dislocate something but said superficial damage heals almost instantly. Ie its more apparent than actual damage.

[Nightmartree]

my view is that when a creature like a werewolf /vampire had invulnerable except /unless x happens then I would tend to go with something more akin to the zombie flesh /fast healing happens as in you might be able to break /dislocate something but said superficial damage heals almost instantly. Ie its more apparent than actual damage.

that's how I understood the vampire invulnerabilities if I remember right, or it could just be because they had a picture of a vampire recovering from being staked and in less than a melee action completely regrowing his body from the skeleton up and already combat able before it finished...I think, I really need to re-read some things but it's been a long day (pipes burst, that's something you never see in these games, what happens when its a cold winter and your heros have to squeeze under a house to fix the water pipes, what you mean to say you brought a MD plasma pistol into a crawl space so tight you can't sneeze in it and you somehow fit your Power Armor? no dice, your going to have to hand to hand that mutant rat...better hope its not supernatural PS)

[Eagle]

Wolfman's got nards.

Cinematically, there exists a kind of "massive damage" (beyond normal MD weapons) where it would visually make sense for a lycanthrope or a vampire to be annihilated. Or, more appropriately, where it would not make sense if they weren't annihilated. I'd probably run it so that very large attacks incapacitate the creature, and extremely large attacks just kill them. Shoot a werewolf with a Boom Gun and he should be cartwheeling through the air for a couple hundred feet. Sure, it won't kill him, but he's probably out of the fight. An Abolisher robot stomps on him, he's smushed flat. Yes, he might pull himself back together (with horrible joint popping noises and tearing sounds), but it'll take a while. It's just visually silly to have him embedded in the earth, unharmed, Looney Tunes style. Feed him into a mega-damage woodchipper, and even though it's not silver, there should just be no coming back from that.

It's like the old D&D question, is the Earth a +1 weapon? Take a monster that required magic weapons to hurt and throw him off a mountain, does he die when he hits the ground? Depending on the monster, it's kind of silly to have them live.

[eliakon]

Wolfman's got nards.

That still doesn't mean YOU can hurt them. I think of the webcomic Girlllpower where Achilles likes to stop peoples weapons with his eyeball... because it doesn't hurt him in the slightest, but tends to creep out his foes.

Cinematically, there exists a kind of "massive damage" (beyond normal MD weapons) where it would visually make sense for a lycanthrope or a vampire to be annihilated. Or, more appropriately, where it would not make sense if they weren't annihilated. I'd probably run it so that very large attacks incapacitate the creature, and extremely large attacks just kill them.

Exactly the reason that Rule Zero is canon. It is precisely so that you can run it your way regardless of what the RAW is.

Shoot a werewolf with a Boom Gun and he should be cartwheeling through the air for a couple hundred feet. Sure, it won't kill him, but he's probably out of the fight. An Abolisher robot stomps on him, he's smushed flat. Yes, he might pull himself back together (with horrible joint popping noises and tearing sounds), but it'll take a while. It's just visually silly to have him embedded in the earth, unharmed, Looney Tunes style. Feed him into a mega-damage woodchipper, and even though it's not silver, there should just be no coming back from that.

Again, that is your prerogative
as a GM. It isn't canon according to RAW, but it is canon according to RZ.

It's like the old D&D question, is the Earth a +1 weapon? Take a monster that required magic weapons to hurt and throw him off a mountain, does he die when he hits the ground? Depending on the monster, it's kind of silly to have them live.

And even there there was a disscussion on that with lots of back and forth. I remember. That discussion though isn't relevant here, unless you want to restart it again.
In which case I will simply point out that since the planet is not enchanted, nor a weapon, that RAW it is not an enchanted weapon.
A GM can use RZ to do what they like... but the RAW say what they say (whether or that is the best option, or the most logical option, or anything else is a different story, but what the rules are is what the rules are)

For what it's worth my take on this is this. If it say "Can only be harmed by X, Y and Z," it means exactly that "Can only be harmed by X,Y and Z," not "Can only be harmed by X, Y, Z, A, B, and C," Just because the PCs don't have access to X, Y or Z, but instead have A,B, and C... that doesn't mean anything to me. After all, it is the GM who is the world, and thus who chooses what it is the PCs will encounter/fight. To me it's easy if the party can't fight the monster... don't send the monster. If they already know the monster can't be hurt by them and then they still choose go anyway... I am of the opinion that that is a suicide attempt and thus let the dice fall where they may.

[Axelmania]

Werewolves still need to breathe. Enough pressure on your chest, expanding it to inhale is going to be a problem, even if the pressure itself doesn't damage you.

[Nightmartree]

Werewolves still need to breathe. Enough pressure on your chest, expanding it to inhale is going to be a problem, even if the pressure itself doesn't damage you.

that's kinda were I was going with the strength thing, even if getting hit doesn't normally hurt you...what if a guy grabs your own claws and guts you? or starts slapping you with your own hand, does it suddenly start taking damage? I mean how invulnerable are they, the super healing like zombie flesh (basically insta heal from harm) feels more realistic and lets you fold a werewolf into a thin letter only for him to regenerate and heal in a matter of seconds. Instead of "Oh you just can't do that, despite the creature not being MDC and its strength being below you". Pretty sad/amazing if a werewolf dies because you shoved a spray can of sealing foam into his mouth and he bit down. (you know, can explodes, foam expands, seals the werewolfs throat as he struggles to remove it before dying of suffocation)

[glitterboy2098]

i tend to take the gruesome approach to this. werewolf or vamp gets shot with a MD weapon? blows a hole in them that heals up in seconds. robot pulls on an arm? arm rips off, the severed limb decaying in seconds and a new one growing back just as fast. drop a big rock onto of them? *squish* they're flatter, but anything not pinned is still moving, and once they get clear they'll be back to normal in seconds. etc.
basically working on the principle that the other half of their invulnerability is their regeneration.. part of the same power, not a separate one. in my mind, they are invulnerable because they regenerate so rapidly, and the stuff they are vulnerable to (magic, psi, silver, whatever) just slows that ungodly fast regeneration down.

plus it has the advantage of being much scarier and atmospheric. attacks bouncing off or limbs going stretch armstrong is more comical than scary to me.