Board index » MDC Worlds » Rifts®

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:52 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:26 pm
Posts: 139
Location: So. Indiana
From the text, Cloud Targeting Computers implies that it works against energy pistols such as the Wilks 320 laser pistol. Does the ability negate the bonuses from it being light and well balanced? Also for the negative 2 to strike, does it apply considering the only targeting computer it has is the skill of the user. If that's the case, does the character wielding it get a save or if they have mind block, would the clouding of their minds be blocked since their only targeting system is their mind?

_________________
Check out past episodes of Radio Free Merctown, a Rifts podcast from Explorers Unlimited!
Image


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:07 pm
  

User avatar
Supreme Being

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:01 am
Posts: 9714
Location: Communing with the Keepers of the Desert
Comment: This space for rent.
My opinion:
-- Yes, it works against the Wilks 320. (The text expressly states "all energy weapons.")
-- No, I would not remove the pistol's bonus from being light and well balanced.
-- Yes, I'd apply the -2 penalty to the pistol's user, despite it not quite making sense.
-- No, the pistol wielder does not get a save, nor would a Mind Block be useful.

Think of it this way: The pistol acts just a bit wonky in the user's hand, affecting his aim. (It fires a half-second slower or faster than normal... it vibrates just a little... fizzes & crackles a bit... etc.)

_________________
Love your neighbor.
It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:13 am
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 14316
Location: Missouri
a rationalization: a laser weapon would require a certain degree of automatic focusing and satbilization systems to ensure the pulse is focused properly to do the most damage to the target, and to compensate the aim for minor tremors and such in the users arm/body. the cyberknight power causes these systems to run less accurately.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Co-author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:44 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3702
I think we need to look at the title of the ability on RUE 66. Unless something is classified as a 'targeting computer' or falls under the realm of the "Weapon Systems" skill, I don't believe the bonuses would be lost, nor would a -2 penalty apply on top of them.

When it says "weapons systems"... well, isn't a ballista or a catapult a weapon system in the broad lowercased sense? Do we think it would lose bonuses and suffer penalties? It's obviously intended for the uppercased WS which applies to high tech vehicles, so however wide people might hope the term might span, it's clear from context it is narrow.

When it says "all energy weapons" I believe that refers to energy weapons classified as a weapons system or which involves a targeting computer.

I believe this because it then goes on to say this doesn't apply to vibro-blades and neutral maces. Are these not energy weapons? Pg 259 clearly says vibro-blades are surrounded by energy fields and neural maces release energy charges. Sounds like energy weapons to me. So I think this serves as proof that no, not all energy weapons, only energy weapons which have targeting computers or which are incorporated as weapons systems (and thus usable by the Weapons Systems skill from Piloted Related) into vehicles/PA/bots/borgs.

Looking at RUE 257, I believe Cyber-Knights would not only nullify the +3 from laser targeting for the C-10, but it would work against the user so bad they have the -2 on top of that. They could be better off simply deactivating it and shooting blind, to avoid that penalty.

I am not sure about the C-12 at the top of 258. It is not explicitly computer-enhanced like the C-10. In fact the C-10's description makes it sound exclusive in regard to that for handheld weapons.

The CV-212 raises an additional curiosity: it has a computer which automatically readjusts the laser frequency to overcome resistant armors. Could cyber-knight abilities possibly interfere with that cycling?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:34 am
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15221
Location: Eastvale, calif
The title and the text are in disagreement in what is covered by the power. Thus the GM can choose between the two sets of what is covered by the power.
I for one would chose to limit the power to what is covered by the title, in that the power clouds all electronic systems on weapons used to target weapons.

Opposed to the body text in which the mentioned weapons types get the penalties across the board even if the weapon is a firearm being used with iron sights.

Direct answer: (which ever set of weapon the GM chooses to cover with this ability's rules) the bonuses are negated and a -2 is applied.
As a GM I would limit the negating of the bonuses to only the ones gained from the electronic targeting systems of the weapons.

The question did come to me :is this psionics, magic or chi effects on the user so they can't use the technological sighting systems or is the ability fussing with the weapon?
If it is fussing with the weapon's optical or targeting systems, then if the char is using iron sights then there would be no effect and the balance bonuses would be unaffected.

Overall I find the section poorly written.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:07 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 858
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The title and the text are in disagreement in what is covered by the power. Thus the GM can choose between the two sets of what is covered by the power.
I for one would chose to limit the power to what is covered by the title, in that the power clouds all electronic systems on weapons used to target weapons.

Opposed to the body text in which the mentioned weapons types get the penalties across the board even if the weapon is a firearm being used with iron sights.

Direct answer: (which ever set of weapon the GM chooses to cover with this ability's rules) the bonuses are negated and a -2 is applied.
As a GM I would limit the negating of the bonuses to only the ones gained from the electronic targeting systems of the weapons.

The question did come to me :is this psionics, magic or chi effects on the user so they can't use the technological sighting systems or is the ability fussing with the weapon?
If it is fussing with the weapon's optical or targeting systems, then if the char is using iron sights then there would be no effect and the balance bonuses would be unaffected.

Overall I find the section poorly written.

The title of the section is "Cloud Targeting Computers and other weapon systems." I don't know why you feel that there is a disconnect between the title and the body text. Heckler and Koch, who knows a few things about weapons, refers to the G36 as a weapon system (likely due to the customizability), and they are by no means that only people to use "weapon system" in ways that many would find synonymous with "weapon." (Click here for a link to a pamphlet from 1989 about the G11 that is a pretty cool read.)

In light of that, the title is not limiting the power to anything beyond what the text specifies. On the contrary, it is the text that limits it more than the title (which is no surprise; body text normally is going to be more illuminative regarding how rules work than the title of a section). The only potential gray area in the power is if non-energy modern weapons without optic or sensor systems that are not integral to a power armor, a robot, a vehicle, or a cyborg would suffer the penalty; the fact that those are not addressed in either the "penalty applies to" or "does not apply to" sentences might appear to leave them out of either category. However, as the "penalty applies to" sentence doesn't say "only," I'd read them as being included since their integral bonuses would have been negated by the combat awareness power.

That being said, the negating bonuses thing in the level 9 power is redundant, as the built-in bonuses would already have been negated by the level 8 power Advanced Combat Awareness, so for practical purposes you are really just seeing if the level 9 power is giving the attacker an additional -2 penalty to strike beyond the -2 already applied by Advanced Combat Awareness. In other words, when the penalty applies the net strike penalty between combat awareness and this power ends up at -4.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:38 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3702
I think the use of the verb "cloud" is a poor choice if we're talking about somehow making laser pistols (even those without targeting systems) somehow shaky and hard to aim. "Disrupt" would've been a little broader-sounding.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:57 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:26 pm
Posts: 139
Location: So. Indiana
The effect of the power is poorly described. I would say that something like a wilks 320 or NG-45 etc... have no more automated targeting systems than a black powder pistol. Technically speaking the penalties applied by the abilities would also benefit anyone else in the party. If they are facing 10 thugs armed with laser pistols it would apply to all of them and benefit everyone in the party. Or say if you were facing a Cyber-Knight, can you actively choose to ignore the Cyber-Knight and avoid all penalties?

I get what they want to power to do: give the Cyber-Knight a niche in combat, but it's confusing. For example, I used a wilks 320 for example. What about a BB-6? Ok, now what about a BB-6 loaded with a silver 410 round? Or what about a sword wielded by a giant robot? The sword isn't advanced technology so it would be exempt, but the robot could but if the ability is concerned only with the weapon itself and not what's using it, it wouldn't apply correct?

This is the problem once penalties are applied to a character or NPC rather than just giving bonuses to the character in question.

_________________
Check out past episodes of Radio Free Merctown, a Rifts podcast from Explorers Unlimited!
Image


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:35 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15221
Location: Eastvale, calif
Since weapon systems are vehicle mounted weapons (using the PB skills definition of weapons systems) and the descriptive text is so broudly written so it could be interpreted as including smallarms also is the reason I said the text was poorly written.

Using the skills definition of the term 'weapon systems' then the power only applies to vehicle mounted weapons and what technological aids a weapon might have. Which does make the whole text make since. 8)

Under using the skills def. a smallarm's balancing bonus is not negated.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:52 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 858
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Since weapon systems are vehicle mounted weapons (using the PB skills definition of weapons systems) and the descriptive text is so broudly written so it could be interpreted as including smallarms also is the reason I said the text was poorly written.

Using the skills definition of the term 'weapon systems' then the power only applies to vehicle mounted weapons and what technological aids a weapon might have. Which does make the whole text make since. 8)

Under using the skills def. a smallarm's balancing bonus is not negated.

Since the power is clearly meant to apply to small arms as well, clearly the title of this section is not using the skills definition of the term "weapon systems." I'll concede that it would have been better to not use the term here in light of that.

Any inherent bonus provided by a small arm is already negated by level 8's Advanced Combat Awareness anyways by the time this level 9 power would be part of the equation.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:04 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15221
Location: Eastvale, calif
Actually, the descriptive text never says it applies to smallarms. As such the canon definitions of the words in the title take precedence. So the penalties only apply to vehicle weapons and targeting tech.

Note this drei, you are using the arguments I used and you threw out as irrelevant in other ""discussions"" in other topics. So based on your own arguments that what the writer meant is irrelevant to what was actually written, you are wrong by your own standards.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:37 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 858
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Actually, the descriptive text never says it applies to smallarms. As such the canon definitions of the words in the title take precedence. So the penalties only apply to vehicle weapons and targeting tech.
The text of the ability says that it applies to all energy weapons (which necessarily includes small arms, as there are energy pistols and energy rifles), any weapon using sensors or optic systems (which would include any small arm with a scope), and Techno-Wizard "guns" (there are numerous TW pistols and rifles). Thus the ability clearly applies to small arms. That the title mentions targeting computers and other weapon systems doesn't negate what the text of the body says, and certainly doesn't limit it to vehicle weapons and targeting tech! After all, if it did, why would they go on to explain that the penalties don't apply to hand-held melee weapons? If the power were actually limited by the title, there would be no need! Clearly, the author of that section (Kevin S) did not read the title as limiting the scope of the ability.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Note this drei, you are using the arguments I used and you threw out as irrelevant in other ""discussions"" in other topics. So based on your own arguments that what the writer meant is irrelevant to what was actually written, you are wrong by your own standards.
Feel free to cite the arguments that supposedly serve as a basis for that accusation, and I'll happily respond.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:00 pm
  

User avatar
Supreme Being

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:01 am
Posts: 9714
Location: Communing with the Keepers of the Desert
Comment: This space for rent.
dreicunan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Note this drei, you are using the arguments I used and you threw out as irrelevant in other ""discussions"" in other topics. So based on your own arguments that what the writer meant is irrelevant to what was actually written, you are wrong by your own standards.
Feel free to cite the arguments that supposedly serve as a basis for that accusation, and I'll happily respond.

Or how about we just don't have snarky comments on this message board?

_________________
Love your neighbor.
It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:06 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 858
Mack wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Note this drei, you are using the arguments I used and you threw out as irrelevant in other ""discussions"" in other topics. So based on your own arguments that what the writer meant is irrelevant to what was actually written, you are wrong by your own standards.
Feel free to cite the arguments that supposedly serve as a basis for that accusation, and I'll happily respond.

Or how about we just don't have snarky comments on this message board?
Fair enough, Mack. My apologies. Drewkitty, if you wish to substantiate that argument, please PM me and I'll address it.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:38 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10506
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
rc_brooks wrote:
From the text, Cloud Targeting Computers implies that it works against energy pistols such as the Wilks 320 laser pistol. Does the ability negate the bonuses from it being light and well balanced? Also for the negative 2 to strike, does it apply considering the only targeting computer it has is the skill of the user. If that's the case, does the character wielding it get a save or if they have mind block, would the clouding of their minds be blocked since their only targeting system is their mind?

I'm confused.
The level six power Cloud Sensors says that it causes sensors and weapon systems to blink on and off and provide blah blah blah
There is nothing about energy pistols or anything else. Just that it applies to any and all sensors of all kinds.
That seems to be pretty simple.

There is ALSO the separate level 9 ability Cloud Targeting Computers and other weapon systems. This power says that it makes them just off enough to negate any built-in bonuses and makes the shooter-2.
That also seems pretty simple. If you are using any of the listed devices then you loose all built in bonuses. Period.
It isn't JUST targeting computers, but also weapon systems. Those systems include things like energy weapons, TW guns, any cybernetic weapon system, anything built into any kind of combat vehicles (Power Armor, Tanks, APC, Helicopter, Jet, Mecha, Space Ship... if it is a vehicular device and is combative then its screwed up) and any TW device that is NOT a melee weapon.

I don't understand what the issue is?
There are several different powers, each of which clearly and cleanly lists what that power does and to what.

If it says "negates any built-in bonus of all energy weapons, then it means it negates all of an energy weapons built in bonuses. Even that one, and yes that one, that one too. Any means Any. There are no exemptions, no wiggle room. Go directly to 'it sucks to be fighting a CK with a laser and collect your net -2" If you want to use your M-16, then you better take of that scope and laser sight first. With them on your at -2, with them off you can use the bonuses you got for having it customized to your personal use.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:28 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 858
eliakon wrote:
rc_brooks wrote:
From the text, Cloud Targeting Computers implies that it works against energy pistols such as the Wilks 320 laser pistol. Does the ability negate the bonuses from it being light and well balanced? Also for the negative 2 to strike, does it apply considering the only targeting computer it has is the skill of the user. If that's the case, does the character wielding it get a save or if they have mind block, would the clouding of their minds be blocked since their only targeting system is their mind?

I'm confused.
The level six power Cloud Sensors says that it causes sensors and weapon systems to blink on and off and provide blah blah blah
There is nothing about energy pistols or anything else. Just that it applies to any and all sensors of all kinds.
That seems to be pretty simple.

There is ALSO the separate level 9 ability Cloud Targeting Computers and other weapon systems. This power says that it makes them just off enough to negate any built-in bonuses and makes the shooter-2.
That also seems pretty simple. If you are using any of the listed devices then you loose all built in bonuses. Period.
It isn't JUST targeting computers, but also weapon systems. Those systems include things like energy weapons, TW guns, any cybernetic weapon system, anything built into any kind of combat vehicles (Power Armor, Tanks, APC, Helicopter, Jet, Mecha, Space Ship... if it is a vehicular device and is combative then its screwed up) and any TW device that is NOT a melee weapon.

I don't understand what the issue is?
There are several different powers, each of which clearly and cleanly lists what that power does and to what.

If it says "negates any built-in bonus of all energy weapons, then it means it negates all of an energy weapons built in bonuses. Even that one, and yes that one, that one too. Any means Any. There are no exemptions, no wiggle room. Go directly to 'it sucks to be fighting a CK with a laser and collect your net -2" If you want to use your M-16, then you better take of that scope and laser sight first. With them on your at -2, with them off you can use the bonuses you got for having it customized to your personal use.

Actually, the level 8 power Advanced Combat Awareness laughs at your scope-less and laser sight-less M-16 like Crom laughing from his mountain and takes away your bonuses anyway, plus it slaps a -2 strike penalty on you (and -2 to dodge the cyberknights attacks and -1 attack per melee for daring to use a modern weapon with moving parts (no modern bows for you! And the combat awareness power DOES explicitly include vibroblades and neural maces, so modern melee weapons count as well. No word on nunchucks or other weapons involving chains)).


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:13 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10506
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
dreicunan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
rc_brooks wrote:
From the text, Cloud Targeting Computers implies that it works against energy pistols such as the Wilks 320 laser pistol. Does the ability negate the bonuses from it being light and well balanced? Also for the negative 2 to strike, does it apply considering the only targeting computer it has is the skill of the user. If that's the case, does the character wielding it get a save or if they have mind block, would the clouding of their minds be blocked since their only targeting system is their mind?

I'm confused.
The level six power Cloud Sensors says that it causes sensors and weapon systems to blink on and off and provide blah blah blah
There is nothing about energy pistols or anything else. Just that it applies to any and all sensors of all kinds.
That seems to be pretty simple.

There is ALSO the separate level 9 ability Cloud Targeting Computers and other weapon systems. This power says that it makes them just off enough to negate any built-in bonuses and makes the shooter-2.
That also seems pretty simple. If you are using any of the listed devices then you loose all built in bonuses. Period.
It isn't JUST targeting computers, but also weapon systems. Those systems include things like energy weapons, TW guns, any cybernetic weapon system, anything built into any kind of combat vehicles (Power Armor, Tanks, APC, Helicopter, Jet, Mecha, Space Ship... if it is a vehicular device and is combative then its screwed up) and any TW device that is NOT a melee weapon.

I don't understand what the issue is?
There are several different powers, each of which clearly and cleanly lists what that power does and to what.

If it says "negates any built-in bonus of all energy weapons, then it means it negates all of an energy weapons built in bonuses. Even that one, and yes that one, that one too. Any means Any. There are no exemptions, no wiggle room. Go directly to 'it sucks to be fighting a CK with a laser and collect your net -2" If you want to use your M-16, then you better take of that scope and laser sight first. With them on your at -2, with them off you can use the bonuses you got for having it customized to your personal use.

Actually, the level 8 power Advanced Combat Awareness laughs at your scope-less and laser sight-less M-16 like Crom laughing from his mountain and takes away your bonuses anyway, plus it slaps a -2 strike penalty on you (and -2 to dodge the cyberknights attacks and -1 attack per melee for daring to use a modern weapon with moving parts (no modern bows for you! And the combat awareness power DOES explicitly include vibroblades and neural maces, so modern melee weapons count as well. No word on nunchucks or other weapons involving chains)).

True...
But Cloud Target Computer or Weapon System doesn't.
Which was the topic here.
In the final analysis the answer is "If you are fighting a Cyber-Knight then don't use technology because they are going to basically own you if you try it."

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:05 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3702
I just realized, with all these strike penalties you can put on your enemies, combined with the AR going up as levels rise, it makes bypassing it less and less likely.

With AR 17 and -3 to strike for example, even a natural 20 would not be higher than the AR.

dreicunan wrote:
Since the power is clearly meant to apply to small arms as well, clearly the title of this section is not using the skills definition of the term "weapon systems." I'll concede that it would have been better to not use the term here in light of that.

Any inherent bonus provided by a small arm is already negated by level 8's Advanced Combat Awareness anyways by the time this level 9 power would be part of the equation.

No, the power is not clearly meant to apply to small arms, except those which use computer targeting like the CA-12.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:33 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 45756
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Axelmania wrote:
I just realized, with all these strike penalties you can put on your enemies, combined with the AR going up as levels rise, it makes bypassing it less and less likely.


Huh.
True.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:53 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 858
Axelmania wrote:
I just realized, with all these strike penalties you can put on your enemies, combined with the AR going up as levels rise, it makes bypassing it less and less likely.

With AR 17 and -3 to strike for example, even a natural 20 would not be higher than the AR.

dreicunan wrote:
Since the power is clearly meant to apply to small arms as well, clearly the title of this section is not using the skills definition of the term "weapon systems." I'll concede that it would have been better to not use the term here in light of that.

Any inherent bonus provided by a small arm is already negated by level 8's Advanced Combat Awareness anyways by the time this level 9 power would be part of the equation.

No, the power is not clearly meant to apply to small arms, except those which use computer targeting like the CA-12.

"all energy weapons" means "all energy weapons". "Techno-Wizard 'guns'" means Techno-Wizard "guns". Both of those are listed separately from robots, power armor, combat vehicles, and cyborg systems. Both of those categories include small arms. Therefore, the power is clearly meant to apply to small arms. For example, a Wilks laser pistol is an energy weapon. That falls into the category of "all energy weapons." Therefore, the penalty applies.

eliakon wrote:
True...
But Cloud Target Computer or Weapon System doesn't.
Which was the topic here.
In the final analysis the answer is "If you are fighting a Cyber-Knight then don't use technology because they are going to basically own you if you try it."
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:38 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10506
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
I just realized, with all these strike penalties you can put on your enemies, combined with the AR going up as levels rise, it makes bypassing it less and less likely.

With AR 17 and -3 to strike for example, even a natural 20 would not be higher than the AR.

Don't start that up again here please.
You already have 3 threads on that subject going in three forums, you don't need a fourth thread on the exact same topic in yet another forum.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:11 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1650
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.

As do volleys. Good luck shooting that missile down, Mr Knight, with that -20 to hit. Not that im sure its even possible to target something like a missile without sensors; i guess, RAW, even a jamoke on foot with a pistol can shoot incoming missiles.

Flamethrowers are good too.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:52 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 45756
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:40 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1650
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.


Interpretation of? I wasnt implying that grenade volleys become undodgeable, if thats what youre thinking. They dont. You just need volleys/bursts to get the damage and blast radius up to something respectable.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:41 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 858
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.


Interpretation of? I wasnt implying that grenade volleys become undodgeable, if thats what youre thinking. They dont. You just need volleys/bursts to get the damage and blast radius up to something respectable.

While I'm sure that KC will clarify for himself, what came to mind for me as needing interpretation is if Advanced Combat Awareness and CTCAOWS would apply in a given situation. The language under Advanced Combat Awareness says that it "extends to all combatants who direct an attack at the Knight." "Direct an attack" isn't necessarily synonymous with "explicitly targets." CTCAOWS doesn't have any language making the application of its penalty any more clear in this regard, either.

If you are directly targeting the cyber-knight, there is no question that they would. If you start targeting the trees (or allies) near enough to him to place him within the blast radius of your explosives so that you hit him with splash damage, that might get a bit more muddy. Some would say "Of course they wouldn't apply! You aren't actually targeting him." Others might say "Of course they would apply! Metaphysics is a strange thing, and it knows what you are doing there." In other words, does the intent of the firer matter? Would the opponent who tries to do it deliberately suffer the penalties? Would the opponent who despairs of ever hitting him, gives up on doing so, and starts targeting the others who just happen to be near enough to put him in the blast radius not suffer them? If I am trying to target a convoy with a long range missile from 200 miles away, do the penalties kick in? (I've found no range limitation for any of the powers.)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:32 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10506
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
dreicunan wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.


Interpretation of? I wasnt implying that grenade volleys become undodgeable, if thats what youre thinking. They dont. You just need volleys/bursts to get the damage and blast radius up to something respectable.

While I'm sure that KC will clarify for himself, what came to mind for me as needing interpretation is if Advanced Combat Awareness and CTCAOWS would apply in a given situation. The language under Advanced Combat Awareness says that it "extends to all combatants who direct an attack at the Knight." "Direct an attack" isn't necessarily synonymous with "explicitly targets." CTCAOWS doesn't have any language making the application of its penalty any more clear in this regard, either.

If you are directly targeting the cyber-knight, there is no question that they would. If you start targeting the trees (or allies) near enough to him to place him within the blast radius of your explosives so that you hit him with splash damage, that might get a bit more muddy. Some would say "Of course they wouldn't apply! You aren't actually targeting him." Others might say "Of course they would apply! Metaphysics is a strange thing, and it knows what you are doing there." In other words, does the intent of the firer matter? Would the opponent who tries to do it deliberately suffer the penalties? Would the opponent who despairs of ever hitting him, gives up on doing so, and starts targeting the others who just happen to be near enough to put him in the blast radius not suffer them? If I am trying to target a convoy with a long range missile from 200 miles away, do the penalties kick in? (I've found no range limitation for any of the powers.)

If your intent is to harm the CK it counts.
Trying to Rules Lawyer it and say "I'm not attacking them, I'm attacking that rock.is just that. Rules Lawyering. The Player, and the person firing the weapons have every intention of harming the CK with that attack, and that means that they are attacking the CK.

If the person doesn't know the CK is there, and doesn't intend them harm then I would say they are not attacking the CK.

It is all about intent and not a universal "get out of tech free" card.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:36 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1650
dreicunan wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.


Interpretation of? I wasnt implying that grenade volleys become undodgeable, if thats what youre thinking. They dont. You just need volleys/bursts to get the damage and blast radius up to something respectable.

While I'm sure that KC will clarify for himself, what came to mind for me as needing interpretation is if Advanced Combat Awareness and CTCAOWS would apply in a given situation. The language under Advanced Combat Awareness says that it "extends to all combatants who direct an attack at the Knight." "Direct an attack" isn't necessarily synonymous with "explicitly targets." CTCAOWS doesn't have any language making the application of its penalty any more clear in this regard, either.

If you are directly targeting the cyber-knight, there is no question that they would. If you start targeting the trees (or allies) near enough to him to place him within the blast radius of your explosives so that you hit him with splash damage, that might get a bit more muddy. Some would say "Of course they wouldn't apply! You aren't actually targeting him." Others might say "Of course they would apply! Metaphysics is a strange thing, and it knows what you are doing there." In other words, does the intent of the firer matter? Would the opponent who tries to do it deliberately suffer the penalties? Would the opponent who despairs of ever hitting him, gives up on doing so, and starts targeting the others who just happen to be near enough to put him in the blast radius not suffer them? If I am trying to target a convoy with a long range missile from 200 miles away, do the penalties kick in? (I've found no range limitation for any of the powers.)


I think you're overthinking what i was implying.

I dont care if you dodge the missile (if im using a single missile) or burst/volley of grenades, or explosive shotgun rounds, or what have you. You can't dodge out of the blast radius except in the case of really small ones. Youll still suck the AoE damage. That was my point.

And if its a volley of four missiles, the penalties are largely irrelevant. You cant dodge them. You cant, in fact, do anything other than attempt to shoot them down. And good luck with that. Even the slowest missiles produce a rather massive penalty to hit from speed.

Its about making the ability useless, not countering it somehow and retaining the bonuses.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:15 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 45756
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.


Interpretation of? I wasnt implying that grenade volleys become undodgeable, if thats what youre thinking. They dont. You just need volleys/bursts to get the damage and blast radius up to something respectable.


Interpretation of where missiles/bombs hit when they miss the target (i.e., at the person's feet, or sail off into the sunset, or whatever).
Interpretation of whether blast radii are dodgeable, and to what extent, and by whom.
That kind of thing.

Edit:
Oh, yes... also interpretation of whether the Fast Moving Target strike penalties are intended to apply to missiles, and also whether shooting down missiles applies to infantry in the first place, and so forth.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:36 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10506
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.


Interpretation of? I wasnt implying that grenade volleys become undodgeable, if thats what youre thinking. They dont. You just need volleys/bursts to get the damage and blast radius up to something respectable.


Interpretation of where missiles/bombs hit when they miss the target (i.e., at the person's feet, or sail off into the sunset, or whatever).
Interpretation of whether blast radii are dodgeable, and to what extent, and by whom.
That kind of thing.

Edit:
Oh, yes... also interpretation of whether the Fast Moving Target strike penalties are intended to apply to missiles, and also whether shooting down missiles applies to infantry in the first place, and so forth.

^This. So much this. ^

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:47 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1650
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
True enough. I suppose that I've just been emphasizing the point because the "negate bonus" part of this power is never actually going to come into play due to Advanced Combat Awareness being acquired a level earlier. Using technology against them is pretty much a "pray for natural 20s" proposition.


More of a "suck splash damage" situation, really. Frag mini missiles turn overconfident Anti-Tech-Jedi-Wannabes Cyberdudes into dogmeat pretty handily. Heck, even grenades can do the job if you've got a volley-capable grenade launcher.


Depends on GM interpretation, I'd think.


Interpretation of? I wasnt implying that grenade volleys become undodgeable, if thats what youre thinking. They dont. You just need volleys/bursts to get the damage and blast radius up to something respectable.


Interpretation of where missiles/bombs hit when they miss the target (i.e., at the person's feet, or sail off into the sunset, or whatever).


Ill give you that one, this is not covered.

However, if im not shooting directly at the CK, this isn't terribly relevant. Now, im not saying his abilities wont interract with my bonuses (i can see the argument either way, and it really isn't relevant), but im just plopping a volley of grenades down around him. They were always intended to hit the ground, not him directly. As an example.

Quote:
Interpretation of whether blast radii are dodgeable, and to what extent, and by whom.
That kind of thing.


There is actually no mention of blast radii being dodgeable at all. The rules on blast radii say if you're caught in it, you take it, and your only recourse is to further reduce it (as you're already taking half) by a successful roll with punch/fall/impact. (RUE p362).

So, anything beyond that is a house rule. Now, i personally have no problem allowing people to dodge out of blast radii provided they can move the necessary distance in a (relative) instant. A Juicer probably could, for instance, as he can leap 20ft from a standing start. So, in that case, sure. But, RAW, nerp. You get caught in the blast radius, you take it. Full stop.

Quote:
Edit:
Oh, yes... also interpretation of whether the Fast Moving Target strike penalties are intended to apply to missiles, and also whether shooting down missiles applies to infantry in the first place, and so forth.


I see no reason or need for interpretation for any of that. They are all quite clear (im reading them right now) and unequivocal. Fast Moving Targets are covered under the rules for shooting; there is -nothing- in the missile section that mentions this or alters it. The targets are moving faster than 20mph. That's that.

There is -nothing- in the missile section that says that only certain people can shoot missiles. "The character" is rather unequivocal.

Again, its not unclear or anything. There's no mention of any kind that there is a different set of rules for infantry or not. Not even an intimation of it.

_________________
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:02 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10506
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Interpretation of where missiles/bombs hit when they miss the target (i.e., at the person's feet, or sail off into the sunset, or whatever).


Ill give you that one, this is not covered.

However, if im not shooting directly at the CK, this isn't terribly relevant. Now, im not saying his abilities wont interract with my bonuses (i can see the argument either way, and it really isn't relevant), but im just plopping a volley of grenades down around him. They were always intended to hit the ground, not him directly. As an example.

If you are intending to hurt the CK, you are attacking him.
It doesn't matter if you are shooting him directly, or shooting something indirectly to hit them. You are intentionally firing a weapon with the direct intention of causing that CK harm or death. That is the definition of 'attack'

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Quote:
Interpretation of whether blast radii are dodgeable, and to what extent, and by whom.
That kind of thing.


There is actually no mention of blast radii being dodgeable at all. The rules on blast radii say if you're caught in it, you take it, and your only recourse is to further reduce it (as you're already taking half) by a successful roll with punch/fall/impact. (RUE p362).

So, anything beyond that is a house rule. Now, i personally have no problem allowing people to dodge out of blast radii provided they can move the necessary distance in a (relative) instant. A Juicer probably could, for instance, as he can leap 20ft from a standing start. So, in that case, sure. But, RAW, nerp. You get caught in the blast radius, you take it. Full stop.

Except it doesn't HAVE to say anything in blast radii
It is covered in the basic combat section where we are informed that after damage is rolled you are always allowed a dodge, and a roll with impact.
Thus, yes there is a solid rules reason to be allowed a dodge.
It would be up to the GM to decide what would be a sufficient dodge of course.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Quote:
Edit:
Oh, yes... also interpretation of whether the Fast Moving Target strike penalties are intended to apply to missiles, and also whether shooting down missiles applies to infantry in the first place, and so forth.


I see no reason or need for interpretation for any of that. They are all quite clear (im reading them right now) and unequivocal. Fast Moving Targets are covered under the rules for shooting; there is -nothing- in the missile section that mentions this or alters it. The targets are moving faster than 20mph. That's that.

Which then begs the question of why bother with presenting the ability to shoot missiles if it because of the massive penalties and the low bonuses it usually takes a n20 to do so.
It also means that all the examples of shooting down missiles we have ever seen are wrong because they were NOT n20s.
However it once again doesn't matter to a C.K. They get to ignore any thing about tech that is a problem. The speed of the missile is an inherent bonus and thus... goes away to the suddenly amazingly sharp eyed C.K.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
There is -nothing- in the missile section that says that only certain people can shoot missiles. "The character" is rather unequivocal.

Again, its not unclear or anything. There's no mention of any kind that there is a different set of rules for infantry or not. Not even an intimation of it.

I agree, but there is a view point that it can only be done with vehicles as people are not able to react fast enough. Frankly I don't want to try and rehash that argument here, again. I think saying "depends" and calling it a day is good enough.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:11 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 45756
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Interpretation of where missiles/bombs hit when they miss the target (i.e., at the person's feet, or sail off into the sunset, or whatever).


Ill give you that one, this is not covered.

However, if im not shooting directly at the CK, this isn't terribly relevant. Now, im not saying his abilities wont interract with my bonuses (i can see the argument either way, and it really isn't relevant), but im just plopping a volley of grenades down around him. They were always intended to hit the ground, not him directly. As an example.


Sure, so you roll to strike the ground near him.
And if you miss, the missiles/grenades go where?
GM's discretion/interpretation/whim.

Quote:
Quote:
Interpretation of whether blast radii are dodgeable, and to what extent, and by whom.
That kind of thing.


There is actually no mention of blast radii being dodgeable at all. The rules on blast radii say if you're caught in it, you take it, and your only recourse is to further reduce it (as you're already taking half) by a successful roll with punch/fall/impact. (RUE p362).


RUE 364
Dodging a missile or a missile volley is basically the same as a hand to hand combat dodge, basically the character needs move to get out of the missile's way and/or dive behind or under protective cover. Roll a 20-sided die to dodge. The high roll wins. A successful missile dodge will get the character out of the missile's direct line of impact (maximum damage). HOWEVER, the character must run or dive out of the missile's blast radius to completely escape taking any MD whatsoever. That may require flying, running, or diving to some distance (anywhere from 3 to 80 feet depending on the missile) to get completely out of the blast radius. The Game Master should use discretion as to whether that may require a second dodge roll or count as one roll but two melee actions. A small blast radius under 12 feet can be escaped with a single dodge action.

Quote:
Edit:
Oh, yes... also interpretation of whether the Fast Moving Target strike penalties are intended to apply to missiles, and also whether shooting down missiles applies to infantry in the first place, and so forth.


I see no reason or need for interpretation for any of that.[/quote]

Because without interpretation, it's just meaningless ink on paper, akin to a rorschach blot as seen by a robot.

Quote:
Fast Moving Targets are covered under the rules for shooting; there is -nothing- in the missile section that mentions this or alters it. The targets are moving faster than 20mph. That's that.


Depends on how the GM interprets things.
Yes, RUE p. 361 has a note that "Target is Moving" means -1 to strike per 50 mph beyond 20 mph.
Yet there is zero mention of this penalty in the section (RUE 364) that discusses Shooting Missiles, and you'd THINK that would be a pretty important thing to underline since some of the faster missiles would be virtually impossible to hit using that strike penalty.
The only reference to the missiles' speed in that section is discussing how many shots the character might get off before the missile reaches him/her not anything about penalties.
There's no direct contradiction, so if the GM wants to interpret things RAW, the penalties apply.
If the GM thinks that RAI is that the penalties don't apply, then the penalties don't.

Quote:
There is -nothing- in the missile section that says that only certain people can shoot missiles.


The rule originally appeared under rules for high-tech war machines that have radar and such, and even in RUE the Shooting Missiles section begins by discussing how the character can "use part of his robot or armored body to block and take most of the blast," so the subsections may well be seen in that same context.
Again, if the GM interprets things RAW here, then sure, any character can do it.
If RAI, then it's up for debate.
If you don't believe me, start a thread on it.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:56 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3702
dreicunan wrote:
"all energy weapons" means "all energy weapons". "Techno-Wizard 'guns'" means Techno-Wizard "guns". Both of those are listed separately from robots, power armor, combat vehicles, and cyborg systems. Both of those categories include small arms. Therefore, the power is clearly meant to apply to small arms. For example, a Wilks laser pistol is an energy weapon. That falls into the category of "all energy weapons." Therefore, the penalty applies.

I'd consider a lot of TW weapons energy weapons too... and aren't even rail guns called energy weapons?

We gotta know if it means weapons which expel energy, weapons which are powered by e-clips, weapon which use energy in general (nuclear-powered electromagnetic railguns for example) or whatever.


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group