Animal Tattoos for an Undead Slayer

[Drachenwulf]

I am having trouble deciding on what tattoos to give my Undead Slayer, because I think I am too hung up on a normal animal will get very quickly pasted by anything that does mega damage. so what I am asking is this: How useful are the simple animal tattoos are are any more useful than others?

also is it worth while to get the monsters and animals book?

[ShadowLogan]

Why does or Would the Undead Slayer use a normal animal for MDC combat? Per WB 2 "Animals created by tattoo magic are typically intended for use in combat (attack and defense) or as a pack or riding animal. They do not function like a wizard's familiar but as a trained pet."

So I don't think a Magic Tattoo user would use SDC animals for MDC combat. At least not directly given they take damage if it gets destroyed. That suggests to me that you'd use them indirectly at this level of combat, though might come in more handy in SDC combat or uses outside of direct combat. You have the stated riding animal, but they could be used to attack at range (birds can drop stuff, primates can throw), they could use the approach of entangle (snake, bear, primate) or knockdown (Elephant, Rino, etc) if not the undead then their allies, or retrieve items while the T-man (and allies) distract the undead.

In terms of survivability, some of them can probably take 1 MDC, but anything higher will be an issue (and you'd be counting on a lucky roll). Still being magical in nature they might still harm undead who are vulnerable to magic with their melee attacks.

also is it worth while to get the monsters and animals book?

Can't say, I don't have that book.

[dragonfett]

Raccoons, monkeys, gorillas, ferrets, and the ike would be useful for thing that requires manual dexterity (fetching stuff). A gorilla would also be hardy and strong in combat.

[kaid]

Also with the secrets of atlantis you can upgrade normal animals as well as monster ones. So you can summon a horse with a saddle and such which is nice. Given the penalties for losing an animal in combat I tend to not recommend using normal animals for it but they are great for transportation and if you have an elephant tattoo its basically can function as a big front loader/crane for moving/lifting/shifting huge loads.

[eliakon]

You can do all sorts of things with out having your animal wade in to a robot brawl swinging.
The first thing that springs to mind is the fact that as dimensional nomads Undead Slayers are likely to visit worlds that are not MDC...

The second thing that comes to mind is that sometimes you want to take prisoners not reduce everything to chunky salsa. If your attempting to subdue the innocent mind slaves of the vampire then pulling out a Gryphon or Furry Beetle might not be the best option.

The third thing that comes to mind is that you can have an animal do all sorts of shenanigans... (A gorilla can wear body armor and throw grenades for instance)

The fourth thing is as the person above mentioned these might be very useful against specific beings that may be vulnerable to them (the question of if they do or do not count for purposes of vulnerabilities is best left to other threads, lets just say it is contentious and move on )

I'm sure that other people can think of some other purposes as well (In games I have been in they have been used to carry messages, act as foci for spells, serve as decoys in traps, lure guards away from their posts, and to hunt game for the group.)

[Incriptus]

My T-Monster Man was particularly fond of his pet Skunk

He also had a little guard dog
Finally a buffalo (bait)

[Dustin Fireblade]

I am having trouble deciding on what tattoos to give my Undead Slayer, because I think I am too hung up on a normal animal will get very quickly pasted by anything that does mega damage. so what I am asking is this: How useful are the simple animal tattoos are are any more useful than others?

also is it worth while to get the monsters and animals book?

Walking into a simple village alongside a grizzly bear might be rather intimidating to the locals....


I've found the Monsters & Animals book very helpful, it's the only book from the Fantasy line that I don't have put up. Not sure how useful it will be with the upcoming Bestiary books, which is supposed to be updated and have more detail.

[Mack]

Take a look at the Whisker Coyote described in New West. He's a great traveling companion with a nice selection of psionics.

[Eagle]

I always liked having a bird as an option. Something like a hawk or an eagle. Even if they aren't useful to attack (and you can't see through their eyes or anything), you can still use them for scouting and spying.
"Go follow those guys, then come back here and lead us to where they are."

You can also use it to hunt rabbits or fish or things like that. "Go catch some small animals and bring them back." Easy way to get dinner.

Something like a big spider or a venomous snake can also have uses, but that requires more careful planning and a bit of luck. Imagine how a SAMAS pilot would freak out if a tarantula crawled onto his face inside his suit while he was flying around. You'd just need to get near him when he had his helmet off (invisibility can help with that).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I am having trouble deciding on what tattoos to give my Undead Slayer, because I think I am too hung up on a normal animal will get very quickly pasted by anything that does mega damage. so what I am asking is this: How useful are the simple animal tattoos are are any more useful than others?

also is it worth while to get the monsters and animals book?

The animal tattoos last significantly longer and not everything has to do with combat.
------------
The PF: M&A book...it has a host of the stats for common animals. So it depends if you want the chars to interact with normal animals more.

So, using a tattoo example, if you want say a Race Horse tattoo instead of just a common horse tattoo you can have the stats for a race horse. or maybe a war horse is what you desire for your ride. Their stats are in PF:M&A.

[Library Ogre]

Heh. If I have a tattoo dog, does it get the benefits of dogs from Chaos Earth?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Heh. If I have a tattoo dog, does it get the benefits of dogs from Chaos Earth?

edit...

In Chaos Earth canines are the enemy of all supernatural evil. It says that their SDC bite will inflict the same in MDC to supernatural creatures and the supernatural creatures get no bonus to strike, parry or dodge and regeneration works after 30 minutes from those wounds. ...snip

Is this what you are referring to?
Tattoos are magic constructs not ""the real thing"". Pictures come to life.
So my org. comment did cover this but the understanding of the question was lacking.
So my reframed answer is....

No, dog animal tattoos do not do damage to the SN due to that the limitations of animals do not allow for this. They only allow for their abilities due to form....fly, run, stalk, ram, etc...
While it might be inferred that animal might have the ability to track by smell, sight, hearing that is not having the essence of the true animal.

To have the essence of the portrayed animal the tattoo would have to be a Rune Tattoo with the essence of the animal tattoo trapped within the tattoo. Since this is not a thing within canon and the CE rules are not a part of rifts canon ....S.O.L.

[eliakon]

Heh. If I have a tattoo dog, does it get the benefits of dogs from Chaos Earth?

*shakes magic 8 ball* "Answer hazy"
It may get the benefit... it may not.
Heck dogs in Rifts may or may not get the benefits. After all AFAIK the CE books are not canon Rifts supplements and thus the rules in them only apply to them and are not considered binding on any other part of the Megaverse.
The GM may rule that the benefits are because its a dog and not a property of the specific dog itself per se, in which case no you would not get the benefit because you only replicate the abilities of the dog itself.
OR
The GM may rule that the benefits are an intrinsic property of each dog in and of itself and then you would get the benefits because in replicating all natural abilities of the dog you would replicate that one too.

BOTH answers are correct, both answers are book legal and both answers are in line with RAW.
Which answer works for you? Check your GM.

[Incriptus]

Ahh isn't that the cutest puppy/kitten you've ever seen
It's rolled over, I think it wants a belly rub

and when their guard was down I attacked

[The Beast]

Heh. If I have a tattoo dog, does it get the benefits of dogs from Chaos Earth?

Mystically speaking it would be a magical construct, not a dog. So while it wouldn't get the dog bonuses it would still harm them due to being magic.

[Axelmania]

Take a look at the Whisker Coyote described in New West. He's a great traveling companion with a nice selection of psionics.

I raise you a Land Ray from Psyscape.

Heh. If I have a tattoo dog, does it get the benefits of dogs from Chaos Earth?

Mystically speaking it would be a magical construct, not a dog. So while it wouldn't get the dog bonuses it would still harm them due to being magic.

I'm not sure there's anything about SDC magic constructs automatically harming supernatural beings.

I'm not even entirely sure if SDC weapons/animals from tats would split zavor or not. I seem to recall explicit "silver" tattoo weapons, which implies to me these do take on the properties of specific materials.

I always figured tattoo animal/monsters had the full powers of their subject so that would include psi or doing MD to supernatural beings.

I seem to recall there being a Zavor tatoo in one of the artwork which... poses interesting questions.

Also makes me wonder what might happen with 13 T-Monster men who each had a Boschala tattoo...

[The Beast]

Take a look at the Whisker Coyote described in New West. He's a great traveling companion with a nice selection of psionics.

I raise you a Land Ray from Psyscape.

Heh. If I have a tattoo dog, does it get the benefits of dogs from Chaos Earth?

Mystically speaking it would be a magical construct, not a dog. So while it wouldn't get the dog bonuses it would still harm them due to being magic.

I'm not sure there's anything about SDC magic constructs automatically harming supernatural beings.

I'm not even entirely sure if SDC weapons/animals from tats would split zavor or not. I seem to recall explicit "silver" tattoo weapons, which implies to me these do take on the properties of specific materials.

I always figured tattoo animal/monsters had the full powers of their subject so that would include psi or doing MD to supernatural beings.

I seem to recall there being a Zavor tatoo in one of the artwork which... poses interesting questions.

Also makes me wonder what might happen with 13 T-Monster men who each had a Boschala tattoo...

Yeah, I had just been in a thread asking the CE rule for dogs being applicable outside of that game and still had vampires on my mind when answering Mark's question. I should have said "could still harm" instead of "would still harm." So the only way an SDC magical construct would harm a MDC being would be if the being had a weakness that specified magical SDC attacks still cause damage.

[Axelmania]

I think an Animal Tattoo of a Gorilla and then giving the Gorilla your Flaming Bow + Arrow tattoo could be interesting. They might not be very accurate but they could attack enemies for you without you having to worry about getting killed by counterattacks.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Using vamps as an example of a SN Being.

In the VKr, in the section where it talks about Animals & vamps has no mention of any animal of being able to hurt a vamp.
And in the section about how magic effects vamps there is no mention of magic tattoos, nor is there any generalized rules about magic not mentioned in the specific rules given effect vamps.

The Data Points that are revealed by this information is that the Dogs special ability didn't transfer out of the uber-high magic time just after the coming of the rifts (The CE setting), and that there was no guidance in the VKr book about magic constructs attacking attacking beings that are vulnerable to magic.

Even thou the TA are a vampire hunting culture there is no text TICF talking about any special abilities of magical constructs vs vamps.
Data point: there is no text about animal tattoos being able to hurt vamps just because they are magical constructs. Thus the conclusion can be made that any special species mystic qualities of specific animals to hurt the SN are not a part of magic tattoos.
---------
Specific Materials Tattoos
Talking about ""silver"" Tattoo weapons.

There is not text to be found that establishes rules about adding Specific Materials qualities to a magic tattoo.

Data Point: There are no Canon Rules for Creating a "Silver Blade Tattoo" or "Diamond Armor Tattoo" in the published canon.

Whether Boschala tattoos and Zavor tatoos have the mating imparitives or duplicating parts of the maonsters depicted there is no data. Thus it would be up to individual GMs to decide for themselves if they are going to be mean or not. IWR that animal/monster tattoos do not have any mating imparitives, and that Zavor tattoos do not duplicate like the monster they depict.


IWR: I Would Rule

[Axelmania]

VK Revised came out after Mystic Russia, yet it doesn't mention the Ecto-Hunter being able to harm vampires with punches. VK forgetting to acknowledge Chaos Earth's rule about dogs could be the same as it forgetting to acknowledge Mystic Russia's rule about Ecto-Hunters.

Then again, maybe the dogs' ability to harm the supernatural was a temporary benefit of the heightened magic levels of Chaos Earth which is no longer present since the magic levels have waned a bit. That's an easy way to deal with the controversy.

It might explain why the CS was to keen on Dog-Boys, as dogs helped humans to survive during the dark ages prior to the CS by killing MDC creatures with their bites. They lost this, so the CS gave them hands and vibro blades instead.

[drewkitty ~..~]

CE dogs vs WoR's EH's.....one has a specific class ability (The Warlords of Russia's Ecohunters) that does not need to be mentioned in the general rules and the other (CE Dogs) would of been a general rules item.

So your use of specific power exclusion to make an excuse for a general rules item for another setting as rifts canon is batted aside as insignificant excuse for including the CE dogs rules into Rifts as canon as it is.

Sure...GMs can add the CE dogs rules to their own games. But as their own house rules.

[dreicunan]

CE dogs vs WoR's EH's.....one has a specific class ability (The Warlords of Russia's Ecohunters) that does not need to be mentioned in the general rules and the other (CE Dogs) would of been a general rules item.

So your use of specific power exclusion to make an excuse for a general rules item for another setting as rifts canon is batted aside as insignificant excuse for including the CE dogs rules into Rifts as canon as it is.

Sure...GMs can add the CE dogs rules to their own games. But as their own house rules.

Chaos Earth is not another setting unless 101 PA is a different setting from 109 PA. Oh, and then Juicer Uprising would also be a different setting. But we all know that this isn't the case. Chaos Earth is the same setting as Rifts Earth, just at a different point in time. As any critical reader will notice, the cover of Creatures of Chaos says that it is for Rifts and Chaos Earth in one spot while also calling it a "Rifts Chaos Earth Sourcebook" in another. To say that the rules presented in a supplement for Rifts are canon for Rifts isn't a house rule, it's a tautology!

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

CE dogs vs WoR's EH's.....one has a specific class ability (The Warlords of Russia's Ecohunters) that does not need to be mentioned in the general rules and the other (CE Dogs) would of been a general rules item.

So your use of specific power exclusion to make an excuse for a general rules item for another setting as rifts canon is batted aside as insignificant excuse for including the CE dogs rules into Rifts as canon as it is.

Sure...GMs can add the CE dogs rules to their own games. But as their own house rules.

Chaos Earth is not another setting unless 101 PA is a different setting from 109 PA. Oh, and then Juicer Uprising would also be a different setting. But we all know that this isn't the case. Chaos Earth is the same setting as Rifts Earth, just at a different point in time. As any critical reader will notice, the cover of Creatures of Chaos says that it is for Rifts and Chaos Earth in one spot while also calling it a "Rifts Chaos Earth Sourcebook" in another. To say that the rules presented in a supplement for Rifts are canon for Rifts isn't a house rule, it's a tautology!

Mostly i agree, but Chaos Earth *is* technically its own game. It has a core rulebook of its own and everything. Precisely, as it is detailed on page 3 of Chaos Earth’s core rulebook, the title of the book is “Rifts Chaos Earth” and the subline is “A complete roleplaying game”.

So, “Rifts” is an RPG by Palladium Books; “Rifts Chaos Earth” is another RPG by Palladium Books. They are related and “megaversally” technically compatible (... well leave that topic for another day, perhaps. But the megaversal system is far from functional in most cases)... but they are provably separate product lines. “Chaos Earth” was not published as a sourcebook for Rifts... it was published as its own standalone game.

Especially when you consider that the original premise of Chaos Earth was as an alternate Earth where the Nuclear exchange that caused the cataclysm happened “just a few minutes later” and that a lotmofmthe posters here are old enough to remember that...(though this was clearly discarded, which is unfortunate because i find the Chaos Earth that finally emerged boring as sin and extremely poorly thought out, and it causes all sorts ofmcontinuity problems if we accept/assume that it is the same Earth as Rifts Earth)... yeah, rambling. Its late, sorry.

Tildeer version:

By the absolute “letter of the law” interpretation, Rifts and Rifts Chaos Earth are both separate product lines and each is a complete standalone RPG. Both existing sourcebooks for Chaos Earth support this; the title page of Rise of Magic clearly says “a Rifts Chaos Earth Sourcebook”. Same with Creatures of Chaos. The “Ressurection” sourcebook also clearly labels itself as a “Chaos Earth Sourcebook”, though i dont have it, so i cant vouch for the title page). Its also in its own category on the Store.

Now, given that Kevin has said that Chaos Earth IS Rifts Earth, i find the “then they are also Rifts RPG sourcebooks” to be reasonable and understandable, if not exactly “letter of the law” canon.

[dreicunan]

CE dogs vs WoR's EH's.....one has a specific class ability (The Warlords of Russia's Ecohunters) that does not need to be mentioned in the general rules and the other (CE Dogs) would of been a general rules item.

So your use of specific power exclusion to make an excuse for a general rules item for another setting as rifts canon is batted aside as insignificant excuse for including the CE dogs rules into Rifts as canon as it is.

Sure...GMs can add the CE dogs rules to their own games. But as their own house rules.

Chaos Earth is not another setting unless 101 PA is a different setting from 109 PA. Oh, and then Juicer Uprising would also be a different setting. But we all know that this isn't the case. Chaos Earth is the same setting as Rifts Earth, just at a different point in time. As any critical reader will notice, the cover of Creatures of Chaos says that it is for Rifts and Chaos Earth in one spot while also calling it a "Rifts Chaos Earth Sourcebook" in another. To say that the rules presented in a supplement for Rifts are canon for Rifts isn't a house rule, it's a tautology!

Mostly i agree, but Chaos Earth *is* technically its own game. It has a core rulebook of its own and everything. Precisely, as it is detailed on page 3 of Chaos Earth’s core rulebook, the title of the book is “Rifts Chaos Earth” and the subline is “A complete roleplaying game”.

So, “Rifts” is an RPG by Palladium Books; “Rifts Chaos Earth” is another RPG by Palladium Books. They are related and “megaversally” technically compatible (... well leave that topic for another day, perhaps. But the megaversal system is far from functional in most cases)... but they are provably separate product lines. “Chaos Earth” was not published as a sourcebook for Rifts... it was published as its own standalone game.

Especially when you consider that the original premise of Chaos Earth was as an alternate Earth where the Nuclear exchange that caused the cataclysm happened “just a few minutes later” and that a lotmofmthe posters here are old enough to remember that...(though this was clearly discarded, which is unfortunate because i find the Chaos Earth that finally emerged boring as sin and extremely poorly thought out, and it causes all sorts ofmcontinuity problems if we accept/assume that it is the same Earth as Rifts Earth)... yeah, rambling. Its late, sorry.

Tildeer version:

By the absolute “letter of the law” interpretation, Rifts and Rifts Chaos Earth are both separate product lines and each is a complete standalone RPG. Both existing sourcebooks for Chaos Earth support this; the title page of Rise of Magic clearly says “a Rifts Chaos Earth Sourcebook”. Same with Creatures of Chaos. The “Ressurection” sourcebook also clearly labels itself as a “Chaos Earth Sourcebook”, though i dont have it, so i cant vouch for the title page). Its also in its own category on the Store.

Now, given that Kevin has said that Chaos Earth IS Rifts Earth, i find the “then they are also Rifts RPG sourcebooks” to be reasonable and understandable, if not exactly “letter of the law” canon.

Well, does the title page override the cover? As I noted, the cover of Creatures of Chaos says that it is for Rifts and Chaos Earth, and the the cover of Rise of Magic says that it is for use with Rifts and Chaos Earth. They seem to have been written so that whether one acknowledges them as the same line or two different lines, they still end up being for Rifts. Resurrection doesn't have that language on the cover, though it is noted as being compatible with Rifts on page 1. It then also has specific notes on pages 140-141 about the possibility of secondary outbreaks all the way to 110 PA and beyond, so that would definitely connect the book to Rifts. Whether they are technically separate lines or not is rendered moot (indeed, Kevin S's answer to this issue of if Chaos Earth is part of Rifts or separate from it is based on his introduction in the Chaos Earth main book is basically "Both").

To me, the letter of the law is that sourcebooks which clearly say that they are for Rifts are canon for Rifts.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I know ""branding"" when I see it.

Outside of Rifts CE, there was Rifts Manhunter, and there is the Rifts dimension Books WW, 3G & Scrapers.

CE has it's own MB and it's one unique rules. So it has the qualifications of being it's own setting.

However....

That was not my point.
I think, in the post you quoted dreicunan, I stated my point pretty clearly.

In my post before that was pretty clear in my reasoning too. Thou to make it clear....that there was nothing about dogs being to damage vamps in VKr, that indicates that the CE dog vs SN rules are not Rifts Canon.

[Killer Cyborg]

CE has it's own MB and it's one unique rules. So it has the qualifications of being it's own setting.

Where are these qualifications listed in canon?

[13eowulf]

I always liked having a bird as an option. Something like a hawk or an eagle. Even if they aren't useful to attack (and you can't see through their eyes or anything), you can still use them for scouting and spying.
"Go follow those guys, then come back here and lead us to where they are."

Or, you know, hang a tracker on it, or a camera. The solution doesnt need to be the tattoo animal alone, there is lots of talk about giving animals weapons, but you can give them other things.

Most animals you can ride can also pull wagons that hold more cargo.

Birds/bats can be given trackers or cameras to either wear or carry, or in the case of trackers, deposit when able.

Ferrets, a Mongoose, or even a mouse or rat, can retrieve keys, key cards, or punch in numbers on a keypad, if captured.

If you dont mind taking the hit of a lost animal, there are always bomb vests/harnesses...

[eliakon]

The best I can tell is that there is no such thing as a "Chaos Earth" game.
There is a Rifts Chaos Earth game though. That is a thing.

Now what does that mean?
It means everything and nothing.
On the everything side it means that being 'for rifts' and 'compatible for rifts' can mean that it is for the variant of rifts found in the RCE setting.

One interesting thing to note is that we have been shown, explicitly, that in the time of the Cataclysm the 'laws of nature' (what ever they are) seem to be different. Magic works differently in this time period than it does 300 years later. Psionics works differently. Ley lines work differently...
Is it so far fetched that supernatural abilities and weaknesses work differently too?
I.e. in a time/place of great dimensional upheaval that has the same ambient 'levels' of energies (magical, dimensional, what ever) as the TotC (Time of the Cataclysm) then things that would normally be a minor nuisance become fatal weaknesses and abilities that would normally be a minor edge become vastly powerful tools.
i.e. dogs which are simply minor foes of the supernatural and of no particular note in 105PA are killing machines in 2100 AD.
In my opinion it would explain a lot. Such as how you can have apparently mutually contradictory statements about animals. They are both correct... for their time period.

(I might also suggest that since it has drifted rather off topic that discussion of dog rules be moved to its own thread to avoid further hijacking this one so that it can return to discussing Animal Tattoos...)

[Killer Cyborg]

I am having trouble deciding on what tattoos to give my Undead Slayer, because I think I am too hung up on a normal animal will get very quickly pasted by anything that does mega damage. so what I am asking is this: How useful are the simple animal tattoos are are any more useful than others?

also is it worth while to get the monsters and animals book?

It might be worth getting the Monsters & Animals book, but I don't know that there's much useful there.
You might be better off scouring Rifts books for animals that have high SDC/HP or psychic/magic powers. You never know.

Looking through the M&A book, though, here are some considerations:

Blue Whale
Up to 105' long
210 HP, 1600 SDC, AR 1d6+5
Horror Factor: 14
Weight: over 150 tons.
Uses: Just summon it right on top of somebody, trapping them.
Or summon it from a decent height, inflicting at least 15,001d6 SDC as a thrown heavy object, for an average of 52,503.5 SDC damage, or roughly 525 MD.
Just hope they don't dodge. Maybe do it as a simo-attack.

Red Howler Monkey
18 HP, 18 SDC
Various minors stats that aren't great in Rifts.
Uses: Their howls can be heard from up to 2 miles away.
So if you need to signal somebody within that range, or freak somebody out with something really noisy...

Vampire Bat
6 HP, 4 SDC
Track by smell 45%, nightvision, echolocation, etc.
Horror Factor: 12
Uses: HF of 12 isn't bad. Against any living thing that doesn't have a bonus to save, that's a better than 50% chance of making it crap itself.
Also, you could potentially confuse actual vampires.

Spitting Cobra
HP 12, SDC 2, AR 5
Uses: It can spit venom up to 6.5 feet, and "blindness will result if the venom is not immediately flushed from the eyes."
Also 2d6 SDC damage, and 1d6 more damage per round for 1d4 rounds.
But even if they save vs poison, their eyes will burn and be blurry for at least an hour (or until rinsed with water), meaning that they'll be at -2 to init, strike, parry, and dodge.
GMs will likely rule this attack ineffective against MDC critters, but I don't know of any rule actually stating that they're immune to SDC poison effects.

[The Beast]

I am having trouble deciding on what tattoos to give my Undead Slayer, because I think I am too hung up on a normal animal will get very quickly pasted by anything that does mega damage. so what I am asking is this: How useful are the simple animal tattoos are are any more useful than others?

also is it worth while to get the monsters and animals book?

It might be worth getting the Monsters & Animals book, but I don't know that there's much useful there.
You might be better off scouring Rifts books for animals that have high SDC/HP or psychic/magic powers. You never know.

Looking through the M&A book, though, here are some considerations:

Blue Whale
Up to 105' long
210 HP, 1600 SDC, AR 1d6+5
Horror Factor: 14
Weight: over 150 tons.
Uses: Just summon it right on top of somebody, trapping them.
Or summon it from a decent height, inflicting at least 15,001d6 SDC as a thrown heavy object, for an average of 52,503.5 SDC damage, or roughly 525 MD.
Just hope they don't dodge. Maybe do it as a simo-attack.

Red Howler Monkey
18 HP, 18 SDC
Various minors stats that aren't great in Rifts.
Uses: Their howls can be heard from up to 2 miles away.
So if you need to signal somebody within that range, or freak somebody out with something really noisy...

Vampire Bat
6 HP, 4 SDC
Track by smell 45%, nightvision, echolocation, etc.
Horror Factor: 12
Uses: HF of 12 isn't bad. Against any living thing that doesn't have a bonus to save, that's a better than 50% chance of making it crap itself.
Also, you could potentially confuse actual vampires.

Spitting Cobra
HP 12, SDC 2, AR 5
Uses: It can spit venom up to 6.5 feet, and "blindness will result if the venom is not immediately flushed from the eyes."
Also 2d6 SDC damage, and 1d6 more damage per round for 1d4 rounds.
But even if they save vs poison, their eyes will burn and be blurry for at least an hour (or until rinsed with water), meaning that they'll be at -2 to init, strike, parry, and dodge.
GMs will likely rule this attack ineffective against MDC critters, but I don't know of any rule actually stating that they're immune to SDC poison effects.

About the whale, I thought there was a rule about not being able to create animals if the animal wouldn't be able to live in that environment.

[Killer Cyborg]

About the whale, I thought there was a rule about not being able to create animals if the animal wouldn't be able to live in that environment.

IF so, that would make it harder to work.

[Axelmania]

CE dogs vs WoR's EH's.....one has a specific class ability (The Warlords of Russia's Ecohunters) that does not need to be mentioned in the general rules and the other (CE Dogs) would of been a general rules item.

So your use of specific power exclusion to make an excuse for a general rules item for another setting as rifts canon is batted aside as insignificant excuse for including the CE dogs rules into Rifts as canon as it is.

Sure...GMs can add the CE dogs rules to their own games. But as their own house rules.

Dogs aren't a general rule, they're a specific racial ability, like Werebeasts.

Chaos Earth is not another setting unless 101 PA is a different setting from 109 PA. Oh, and then Juicer Uprising would also be a different setting. But we all know that this isn't the case. Chaos Earth is the same setting as Rifts Earth, just at a different point in time. As any critical reader will notice, the cover of Creatures of Chaos says that it is for Rifts and Chaos Earth in one spot while also calling it a "Rifts Chaos Earth Sourcebook" in another. To say that the rules presented in a supplement for Rifts are canon for Rifts isn't a house rule, it's a tautology!

Different eras are different settings, just like TMNT and ATB were different settings. Or the various BtS/HU connections to being a pre-CE/Rifts.

[dreicunan]

I know ""branding"" when I see it.

Outside of Rifts CE, there was Rifts Manhunter, and there is the Rifts dimension Books WW, 3G & Scrapers.

CE has it's own MB and it's one unique rules. So it has the qualifications of being it's own setting.

However....

That was not my point.
I think, in the post you quoted dreicunan, I stated my point pretty clearly.

In my post before that was pretty clear in my reasoning too. Thou to make it clear....that there was nothing about dogs being to damage vamps in VKr, that indicates that the CE dog vs SN rules are not Rifts Canon.

Creatures of Chaos is a sourcebook for Rifts, too; it says so right on the cover. Therefore it is Rifts canon (and makes moot the issue of Rifts and Chaos Earth). There is also nothing about dogs NOT being able to damage vamps in VKr. It is silent on the matter, and Creatures of Chaos comments upon it. Ergo, rules as written, canonically, dogs can damage vampires.

Now, if you want to run it otherwise at your table, Eliakon has given an eminently reasonable position to justify that house rule (make sure to label it as such if you discuss it further; after all, house rules need to be labeled as such).

[ShadowLogan]

About the whale, I thought there was a rule about not being able to create animals if the animal wouldn't be able to live in that environment.

IF so, that would make it harder to work.

AFAIK that restriction is only in place for the Conjuring Magic Discipline (BoM pg52-4 , pg53specifically. As this is a C&P job its the same as WB16o/r not going to lookup the page atm) found under "Limitations of Animal Conjuring" in the last bullet point it does mention "The animal can not be conjured in an environment where it can not survive (ie fish out of water). Nor can they be created in mid-air above the ground." (it continues with examples).

Now the question does have to be considered if the the Conjuring restriction goes beyond that discipline into other branches of magic like Tattoo branch or metamophosis spells (for ex Wizard or Ocean branches) which doesn't mention a restriction like this one way or the other.

[dreicunan]

About the whale, I thought there was a rule about not being able to create animals if the animal wouldn't be able to live in that environment.

IF so, that would make it harder to work.

AFAIK that restriction is only in place for the Conjuring Magic Discipline (BoM pg52-4 , pg53specifically. As this is a C&P job its the same as WB16o/r not going to lookup the page atm) found under "Limitations of Animal Conjuring" in the last bullet point it does mention "The animal can not be conjured in an environment where it can not survive (ie fish out of water). Nor can they be created in mid-air above the ground." (it continues with examples).

Now the question does have to be considered if the the Conjuring restriction goes beyond that discipline into other branches of magic like Tattoo branch or metamophosis spells (for ex Wizard or Ocean branches) which doesn't mention a restriction like this one way or the other.

The far more important question is why the potted plant only thought "oh no, not again" before hitting the ground, but anything that involves more whales dropping out of the sky can only be a good thing. I say allow it!

[Killer Cyborg]

About the whale, I thought there was a rule about not being able to create animals if the animal wouldn't be able to live in that environment.

IF so, that would make it harder to work.

AFAIK that restriction is only in place for the Conjuring Magic Discipline (BoM pg52-4 , pg53specifically. As this is a C&P job its the same as WB16o/r not going to lookup the page atm) found under "Limitations of Animal Conjuring" in the last bullet point it does mention "The animal can not be conjured in an environment where it can not survive (ie fish out of water). Nor can they be created in mid-air above the ground." (it continues with examples).

Now the question does have to be considered if the the Conjuring restriction goes beyond that discipline into other branches of magic like Tattoo branch or metamophosis spells (for ex Wizard or Ocean branches) which doesn't mention a restriction like this one way or the other.

The far more important question is why the potted plant only thought "oh no, not again" before hitting the ground, but anything that involves more whales dropping out of the sky can only be a good thing. I say allow it!

[FluidicAztec]

Someone mentioned Creature of Chaos. On page 11 it talks about a bunch of different animals that can affect demons. If you use that in your Rifts setting, it could definitely pair well with Monsters & Demon Lore.

Heck, you can make a T-Man who specializes in summoning critters that have a impact against demons. You and your GM could even expand the list.

[ShadowLogan]

About the whale, I thought there was a rule about not being able to create animals if the animal wouldn't be able to live in that environment.

IF so, that would make it harder to work.

AFAIK that restriction is only in place for the Conjuring Magic Discipline (BoM pg52-4 , pg53specifically. As this is a C&P job its the same as WB16o/r not going to lookup the page atm) found under "Limitations of Animal Conjuring" in the last bullet point it does mention "The animal can not be conjured in an environment where it can not survive (ie fish out of water). Nor can they be created in mid-air above the ground." (it continues with examples).

Now the question does have to be considered if the the Conjuring restriction goes beyond that discipline into other branches of magic like Tattoo branch or metamophosis spells (for ex Wizard or Ocean branches) which doesn't mention a restriction like this one way or the other.

The far more important question is why the potted plant only thought "oh no, not again" before hitting the ground, but anything that involves more whales dropping out of the sky can only be a good thing. I say allow it!

But we know why the potted plant thought "oh no, not again" before hitting the ground

As for dropping whales out of the sky, two things... Whales can leap into the air, and IINM even survive on the ground for a limited amount of time out of the water (minutes) like that (so one could argue they aren't out of the environment). The one potential downside though is that the tattoo user under these circumstances could take damage if it expires (RAW).

[eliakon]

The bigger questions for Summoning Tattoo Whales in the air to drop on people are
"Will my GM allow a shenanigan like this?"
"Will pulling a shenanigan like this improve or damage the fun at the table"
"Do I want other people pulling shenanigans like this on my character"
Those are far more important than trying to decide if there is a way to rules lawyer in that it is legal.

[Killer Cyborg]

The bigger questions for Summoning Tattoo Whales in the air to drop on people are
"Will my GM allow a shenanigan like this?"
"Will pulling a shenanigan like this improve or damage the fun at the table"
"Do I want other people pulling shenanigans like this on my character"
Those are far more important than trying to decide if there is a way to rules lawyer in that it is legal.

Well, that kind of goes the same for all of the animal tattoos.
If you get a dog tattoo, will the GM let it be useful for you?
Will the GM put you in situations where the dog can add to the fun at the table?
If you're fighting vampires, will the GM rule against dogs hurting vamps in this campaign, leaving you with a useless tattoo?

Or will the GM essentially set up the adventure/campaign to where your character's two Animal Tattoos are essentially useless because he's constantly and consistently throwing MD threats at you, and not giving you a break or a situation where your character's tattoos will be useful in combat like they're intended....?

That's something that's up for each table to figure out.

[eliakon]

The bigger questions for Summoning Tattoo Whales in the air to drop on people are
"Will my GM allow a shenanigan like this?"
"Will pulling a shenanigan like this improve or damage the fun at the table"
"Do I want other people pulling shenanigans like this on my character"
Those are far more important than trying to decide if there is a way to rules lawyer in that it is legal.

Well, that kind of goes the same for all of the animal tattoos.
If you get a dog tattoo, will the GM let it be useful for you?
Will the GM put you in situations where the dog can add to the fun at the table?
If you're fighting vampires, will the GM rule against dogs hurting vamps in this campaign, leaving you with a useless tattoo?

Or will the GM essentially set up the adventure/campaign to where your character's two Animal Tattoos are essentially useless because he's constantly and consistently throwing MD threats at you, and not giving you a break or a situation where your character's tattoos will be useful in combat like they're intended....?

That's something that's up for each table to figure out.

There is a world of difference though between a dog tattoo, which is a normal animal tattoo, that is similar to all the other normal animals that are usually taken by Tattooed individuals and are used in various situations...
...and a whale, that has as its sole purpose to a land based T-man being used not as an animal tattoo, but as a way to get use a rules technicality to all allow for a cheap and easy massive damage attack that does 500+ MD to an area of effect.
One is the expected "I have an animal tattoo of a dog because my class says pick two animals so I picked a dog and a hawk"
One is "I have a couple whales because as a rules lawyer I found that it allows me to turn a tattoo that I find to be boring into a super weapon on the cheap"
The GM doesn't have to allow you to use the special powers of dogs from the Chaos Earth book to make a dog "useful". I would tell a person who says that a dog tattoo is only useful if it gets those powers is playing the game wrong.

I know that if a player tried to use the whale trick in a game I was in I would protest. As I play mages it would be pretty unfair to me to allow a T-Man to get an attack that is more powerful than anything I can get, but is cheaper than most of my top tier spells, simply by abusing a loop hole in the rules. That is what I mean about fun. If everyone is munchkins and rules lawyers then it doesn't matter if you have a munchkin or rules lawyer in the group. It does matter if just one person is being a munchkin or rules lawyer though.

[Mack]

If you get a dog tattoo, will the GM let it be useful for you?
Will the GM put you in situations where the dog can add to the fun at the table?
If you're fighting vampires, will the GM rule against dogs hurting vamps in this campaign, leaving you with a useless tattoo?

I disagree with the implication that a dog tattoo is useless unless it can hurt a vampire. Rather, a dog would be incredibly useful at sensing and alerting the character to threats. Plus it has a low PPE cost and lasts for hours. Even if Sparky doesn't make it through the first round of combat it's still a worthwhile investment (if nothing else it soaked up an incoming attack, assuming the T-man doesn't cancel it first).

I'd take a dog tattoo in a heartbeat, just for the enhanced hearing & smell.

[ShadowLogan]

..and a whale, that has as its sole purpose to a land based T-man being used not as an animal tattoo, but as a way to get use a rules technicality to all allow for a cheap and easy massive damage attack that does 500+ MD to an area of effect.

Aside from Whales being potentially unavailable given they are available as player characters (WB7), which might make them unavailable for tattoos (at least going off of Conjuring Discipline and the Monster category of Tattoo). Conjuring Discipline might also offer another restriction THAT MIGHT be applicable in terms of weight (looking at the example list... if there is one its higher than Conjuring since elephants and rhinos are much heavier than 1000lb limit in Conjuring).

Well for 30 PPE cost for a T-man isn't cheap. The Whale's Hit Points determine cost (since they start w/the best possible roll). For 30 PPE "Lighting Bolts" is probably more cost effective (since you only get one "shot" with the whale) given you get multiple shots for the duration, has a bonus to strike, and likely better range.

Now in terms of damage you are exaggerating...
Killer Whale (2-5tons)... 8 or 18 MD max (RMB or RUE) or 1d8 and 3d6 respectively
Sperm Whale (50-70tons)... 112 or 252 MD max (RMD or RUE) or 14d8 and 42d6 respectively
Humpback Whale (60-70tons)... As Sperm Whale

Damage assumes no critical hit (for double damage) and using the dropped weight damage on RMB pg35 or RUE pg345 (RUE also ignores height modifier). This also assumes the damage can be converted to MD (I am assuming it can give the shear amount of SD being done and precedent). I also used the weight found in WB7 for those specific species. I also assumed maximum weight listed (so a lighter whale weight assumption may not do as much damage).

As the above shows its not 500+ MD easy, you've got to roll for it and have the proper species selected. I doubt you get the height modifier since the Tattoo animal leaps off the body ("Animal tattoos have the magic ability to come to life, leap off the body, becoming full size, and fight for their maker."-WB2 pg88).

[Killer Cyborg]

The bigger questions for Summoning Tattoo Whales in the air to drop on people are
"Will my GM allow a shenanigan like this?"
"Will pulling a shenanigan like this improve or damage the fun at the table"
"Do I want other people pulling shenanigans like this on my character"
Those are far more important than trying to decide if there is a way to rules lawyer in that it is legal.

Well, that kind of goes the same for all of the animal tattoos.
If you get a dog tattoo, will the GM let it be useful for you?
Will the GM put you in situations where the dog can add to the fun at the table?
If you're fighting vampires, will the GM rule against dogs hurting vamps in this campaign, leaving you with a useless tattoo?

Or will the GM essentially set up the adventure/campaign to where your character's two Animal Tattoos are essentially useless because he's constantly and consistently throwing MD threats at you, and not giving you a break or a situation where your character's tattoos will be useful in combat like they're intended....?

That's something that's up for each table to figure out.

There is a world of difference though between a dog tattoo, which is a normal animal tattoo, that is similar to all the other normal animals that are usually taken by Tattooed individuals and are used in various situations...
...and a whale, that has as its sole purpose to a land based T-man being used not as an animal tattoo, but as a way to get use a rules technicality to all allow for a cheap and easy massive damage attack that does 500+ MD to an area of effect.

Correct.
Just as there is a difference between a GM who will let a dog tattoo be something that is useful in combat, and in a GM who will deny players opportunities for anything SDC or low-powered to be either useful or fun during the course of the campaign/adventure.
Which, if you read my post, was my point.

One is the expected "I have an animal tattoo of a dog because my class says pick two animals so I picked a dog and a hawk"

Correct again.
And since you were talking about "what makes things more fun," I'll ask you which is more fun:
a) A GM that runs campaigns/adventures to where SDC animals are so useless that characters only pick ANY of them "because by class says pick two?"
or
b) A GM that runs campaigns/adventures where SDC animals are useful enough in straight combat that having a dog or a hawk is something pretty cool, fun, and useful, where the animal tattoos can be used for more than a rare gimmick or brief distraction before being pulped by a MD blast?

The GM doesn't have to allow you to use the special powers of dogs from the Chaos Earth book to make a dog "useful".

Correct yet again!
This is probably why allowing those special powers in a specific anti-vampire campaign/adventure was only ONE of multiple options that I mentioned.

I know that if a player tried to use the whale trick in a game I was in I would protest. As I play mages it would be pretty unfair to me to allow a T-Man to get an attack that is more powerful than anything I can get, but is cheaper than most of my top tier spells, simply by abusing a loop hole in the rules.

That is what I mean about fun. If everyone is munchkins and rules lawyers then it doesn't matter if you have a munchkin or rules lawyer in the group. It does matter if just one person is being a munchkin or rules lawyer though.[/quote]

Power is relative.
Most players can be satisfied with a low-powered character (or a low-powered animal companion) IF they're given appropriate adventure content and enemies.
A Tattooed Man with a monkey or a bee tattoo can be perfectly happy IF the GM gives them sufficient opportunity for their tattoos to be useful (especially in combat, which is the context of this conversation).
It's when GMs don't provide players with that kind of opportunity that they're most likely to decide to just drop a whale on somebody's head.
If you're running down an SDC human that you have to take alive, or who is in a crowded marketplace, a dog or a horse would be a much better tattoo to have than a whale, and most players will choose accordingly.
If your GM is the kind who pits you up against Glitter Boys or Dragons?
Guess what?
You're better off rules-lawyering and dropping that whale than having your dog/hawk snuffed or ignored, then losing your character.

As I said, it's the kind of thing that's settled or struggled on a table level.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you get a dog tattoo, will the GM let it be useful for you?
Will the GM put you in situations where the dog can add to the fun at the table?
If you're fighting vampires, will the GM rule against dogs hurting vamps in this campaign, leaving you with a useless tattoo?

I disagree with the implication that a dog tattoo is useless unless it can hurt a vampire.

Good. Me too.
Which is why I never said it.

Rather, a dog would be incredibly useful at sensing and alerting the character to threats. Plus it has a low PPE cost and lasts for hours. Even if Sparky doesn't make it through the first round of combat it's still a worthwhile investment (if nothing else it soaked up an incoming attack, assuming the T-man doesn't cancel it first).

I'd take a dog tattoo in a heartbeat, just for the enhanced hearing & smell.

Notice that of the uses you list for a dog tattoo, only ONE involves direct combat, and that use is using Fido as a one-attack meat-shield.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now in terms of damage you are exaggerating...

I posted a specific animal (blue whale) in a specific scenario (dropping from a height great enough to get the thrown heavy object damage table).
Maybe read that post.

[ShadowLogan]

I posted a specific animal (blue whale) in a specific scenario (dropping from a height great enough to get the thrown heavy object damage table).
Maybe read that post.

Okay, Blue Whale was not something I looked at.

It might all be a moot point anyway:
-The Tattoo animal is described in the text to "leap off the body" (WB2/BoM). Doesn't sound like dropping an animal (Elephant, Whale, etc) would be feasible or likely to occur when activated except in very specific circumstances.
-I don't think you could even consider it a "thrown object" instead of a "falling object" under the rules if it leaps off the body. The Misc. Damage table might not even be applicable in this situation (psychic TK/TK:S seems to use its own damage), especially when you consider that under those rules an M-16 Rifle round would do MD (like 1d4 MD IIRC, if we treat it as a collision and use the muzzle velocity as the speed of collision).

[Axelmania]

Creatures of Chaos is a sourcebook for Rifts, too; it says so right on the cover. Therefore it is Rifts canon (and makes moot the issue of Rifts and Chaos Earth). There is also nothing about dogs NOT being able to damage vamps in VKr. It is silent on the matter, and Creatures of Chaos comments upon it. Ergo, rules as written, canonically, dogs can damage vampires.

I agree. It really doesn't create much of a problem IMO. Dogs are for the most part not going to attack vampires because they have psychic powers to detect supernatural evil and will run away from them. Even if a dog went crazy or got magically controlled into attacking a vampire, the vampire can splat it with a single punch and quickly regenerate the damage from the bite.

A 'summon and control canines' circle could possibly be a temporary inconvenience if 100 dogs suddenly entangled it and started chewing it. If all 4 limbs were entangled that could prevent punches/kicks (not sure if bites would still be possible) until the vampire rolled a dodge to escape the entangle. This could leave an opening for someone with a stake or a squirtgun to shoot them unopposed.

Vampires have the ability to control dogs too, so throwing a 1st wave of dogs at each other could prove a valuable strategy in inter-vampire warfare.

The ability to damage vampires is a minor perk and would still not be the main advantage dogs give humans in battling vampires: the ability to warn us of them.

The bigger questions for Summoning Tattoo Whales in the air to drop on people are
"Will my GM allow a shenanigan like this?"
"Will pulling a shenanigan like this improve or damage the fun at the table"
"Do I want other people pulling shenanigans like this on my character"
Those are far more important than trying to decide if there is a way to rules lawyer in that it is legal.

Not sure where you're getting 'in the air', I was under the impression that your animals were created at your feet. This could only cause a problem if you were conjuring whales at the top of a wall to drop on people storming your castle, or flying in a plane and dropping whales off the side.

Given that this will damage the whale too, possibly killing it and creating lasting penalties for the T-Man, I'm not really seeing the downside to allowing it. High-Altitude-Whale-Bombing would create difficulties with timing the whale-drop to properly target something below, especially if in a moving vehicle instead of a hovering bomber, because then you need to account for inherited momentum.

...and a whale, that has as its sole purpose to a land based T-man being used not as an animal tattoo, but as a way to get use a rules technicality to all allow for a cheap and easy massive damage attack that does 500+ MD to an area of effect.

People have already pointed out you exaggerated this damage. Also keep in mind since it is a blunt impact, Roll With Impact can be used to cut it in half. The whale itself can also roll that too, and probably should instinctively.

I think it would also be reasonable to say as a house rule that if a falling person AND the person they fall on both RWI successfully that they should each benefit from each other's rolls and take 1/4 damage.

I would also go with reduced damage from falls when in MDC armor when talking about a big soft thing falling on you, since that's basically like being padded armor.

This isn't a problem with the tattoo rules so much as our problematic rules for weight-based dropping damage.

By the rules, a 20ft x 10ft floating air mattress for a massive swimming pool composed of 10 pounds of rubber filled with air would seem to inflict the same damage (and over a greater area to boot!) as a 10 pound dumbbell being dropped on a single person's head.

Obviously there is a problem with that, and that is what we should be addressing, because if we did, whale-dropping would not be the huge problem everyone thinks it is.

A whale landing on a person would obviously not be crushed by its full weight, because the whale would deform as it landed (pressing inward) and other parts of it would make contact with the ground, bearing that weight.

A whale landing on 20 people is obviously not going to exceed 1/20 of its weight hitting each person, because it is being spread out across multiple points of contact.

That's the problem we need to deal with.

Another is that fall damage is a static thing based on distance and not actually based on the size of a creature. Supposedly you roll the same dice for a mouse falling 10 feet and an elephant falling 10 feet. This is very likely to kill the mouse and could not possible klll the elephant in Palladium- rules...

But realistically, a mouse is going to be much less bothered by a 10 foot fall than an elephant is. This is probably why we should have mass-based falling/collision damage like how GURPS uses.

The GM doesn't have to allow you to use the special powers of dogs from the Chaos Earth book to make a dog "useful". I would tell a person who says that a dog tattoo is only useful if it gets those powers is playing the game wrong.

Where has anyone said that dogs tats would be useless if they can't inflict MD? This simply makes them MORE useful, not ONLY useful if they can do that.

I know that if a player tried to use the whale trick in a game I was in I would protest. As I play mages it would be pretty unfair to me to allow a T-Man to get an attack that is more powerful than anything I can get, but is cheaper than most of my top tier spells, simply by abusing a loop hole in the rules. That is what I mean about fun. If everyone is munchkins and rules lawyers then it doesn't matter if you have a munchkin or rules lawyer in the group. It does matter if just one person is being a munchkin or rules lawyer though.

You must be talking about the whale-drop, in which case, again, this is because damage from falls needs mass-based adjustments, and damage from falling objects needs density-based adjustments.

The 100 pound feather-made-of-down will be less harmed by and less harmful than the 100 pound human if both fell the same distance, when we talk about falling on a dozen people. This isn't just about feathers falling slower, but also because the feather would be larger (since it is less dense) and spread out its force better across multiple connection points.

Another issue with falls we should deal with it: can't seem to find any way to determine whether a falling object hits you on top of the head or wings your shoulder. Maybe that is what a 6 vs a 1 represents?

[Killer Cyborg]

I posted a specific animal (blue whale) in a specific scenario (dropping from a height great enough to get the thrown heavy object damage table).
Maybe read that post.

Okay, Blue Whale was not something I looked at.

It might all be a moot point anyway:
-The Tattoo animal is described in the text to "leap off the body" (WB2/BoM). Doesn't sound like dropping an animal (Elephant, Whale, etc) would be feasible or likely to occur when activated except in very specific circumstances.

Like if you're flying overhead of the target, yes.

-I don't think you could even consider it a "thrown object" instead of a "falling object" under the rules if it leaps off the body.

Is there damage listed for falling objects?
Or is there damage listed TO falling objects?
Don't have my books, so I can't check which rule you're referring to.

The Misc. Damage table might not even be applicable in this situation (psychic TK/TK:S seems to use its own damage), especially when you consider that under those rules an M-16 Rifle round would do MD (like 1d4 MD IIRC, if we treat it as a collision and use the muzzle velocity as the speed of collision).

Neither of those are appropriate.
I used the rules in the RGMG (p. 26): 1d6 SDC damage, plus 1d6 more damage per 20 lbs of weight.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Cover of the CE book.

Palladium Book® Presents:
Rifts®
Chaos Earth
A Complete Role-playing game
by Kevin Siembieda

Second paragraph in the intro page...
"A complete game and stand-alone setting unlike that os Rifts earth."

In other words it's own setting.

FN: highlight and italics added to show what to look at.