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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:53 am
  

Hero

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So... Many people are part of what I like to call the "Coalition Defense Force" on the boards. Meaning people who defend the Coalition and make justification for whatever they do in lieu of admitting that the CS went off the deep end a long time ago.

Warning: For Trolling - no need to start discussing other posters.


So this thread I want to use the same logic presented in the defense of the CS to show why anyone, even the Federation of Magic, could be morally justified in killing every member of the Coalition States, meaning every man, woman, and child.

So... Without further delay:

1. Enacting genocide against the Coalition States is an act of self-defense.

We know from HoH that the Coalition States, as a whole, want to eliminate all mages and all dbees who are on Rifts Earth. This means that, any violent action taken against any member of the CS is justified as self-defense. The defenders of the Coalition state that it was okay for the CS to murder innocent non-combatants, women and children, during the Tolkeen war because it was possible that any of them could have been a mage, dragon, etc in disguise and so killing them all was the only way to be sure and was a rational, and not evil, act.

So let us flip this. The civilians of the CS support the CS. The CS uses propaganda to recruit from those civilians. Meaning the enemies of the CS have no way to know that the CS civilians aren't going to be deadboys and girls some day. Furthermore they could also be CS operatives in disguise. After all, any CS special forces soldier could put on a dress and claim to be an ignorant housewife. The CS uses propaganda and as such are skilled at manipulation and subterfuge. Thus any CS civilian needs to be assumed to be a combatant, I mean heck, they could be a Psi-Bat using some kind of psychic disguise to appear as a child after all... Right?

-----

2. The CS, by claiming to be the continuation of the pre-Cataclysm society, are aggressors.

Another common argument in the defense of the CS is that they are the official and rightful inheritors of humanity, meaning pre-cataclysm humanity, and as such they have a right to all areas of the Earth as Earth is the property of those humans. Magic using humans have violated the rules of humanity as determined by the CS and such don't count as human.

Well, let us flip this on its head. The pre-cataclysm humans caused the rifts by lighting a match known as thermonuclear war. This caused a surge of PPE to come from billions of slaughtered humans and thus, combined with a celestial alignment, blew open the rifts. When this happened millions of innocent dbees who had never even heard of Earth, were ripped away from their homes, kidnapped basically, and deposited on a hostile alien world. I don't know about you, but if you kidnapped my family, then said it was okay to murder them all, then I would be quite upset. They are responsible for all of the pain and suffering felt by every dbee on Earth. Every death, human or dbee, related to a dbee would never have happened if humans hadn't dropped those bombs... So... Yeah... The CS, by claiming that mantle... Also claimed the responsibility for the pain that they caused.

-----

There are plenty more... Though let us focus on these two first... So, if it is okay when we justify the actions of the CS... Then it is okay to justify the actions of even the Federation of Magic... Right? Isn't it?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:01 pm
  

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I wouldn't say that it's "morally justified," but I would say that it is "morally justifiable."

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:06 pm
  

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HWalsh wrote:
Thus any CS civilian needs to be assumed to be a combatant, I mean heck, they could be a Psi-Bat using some kind of psychic disguise to appear as a child after all... Right?


THAT seems pretty unlikely.
Ectoplasmic disguise doesn't change height or other physical attributes in that kind of way, Psi-Bat doesn't seem to employ any 1st edition PFRPG Illusionists, and I can't think of any mind-scoobying powers that would easily or reliably pull off that kind of effect.
Most psionic powers along that line could easily be defeated by either a simple Mind Block or by having several people with decent to high savings throws all looking at the same person and communicating about what they see.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:19 pm
  

Hero

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Thus any CS civilian needs to be assumed to be a combatant, I mean heck, they could be a Psi-Bat using some kind of psychic disguise to appear as a child after all... Right?


THAT seems pretty unlikely.
Ectoplasmic disguise doesn't change height or other physical attributes in that kind of way, Psi-Bat doesn't seem to employ any 1st edition PFRPG Illusionists, and I can't think of any mind-scoobying powers that would easily or reliably pull off that kind of effect.
Most psionic powers along that line could easily be defeated by either a simple Mind Block or by having several people with decent to high savings throws all looking at the same person and communicating about what they see.


Ah... But Killer Cyborg, just like people defend the CS... Do the innocent mages and dbees know that? How do they know that the CS hasn't figured out a way to do it? Can they take that chance CK? Can they really? Isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

(Please tell me you see what I am doing here. :P )


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:29 pm
  

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Well a number of the coalition's enemies would have a problem with this plan, cyber-knights, yeah they would definitely have a problem with along with Erin tarn herself.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:32 pm
  

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Yep, justified. Every single CS civilian is taught from birth that killing dbees and magic folk is okay. Every last one of them is a monster in waiting, and it's not like you need weapon proficiency to kill someone with the guns that are incredibly common. The average city rat has an insta-kill weapon in her arsenal.

Even if you ignore the psychics and disguised monsters, every single member of the uncountable CS population has a chance of being a dangerous "true believer" of Coalition Human Supremacy and part of the semi-religious belief that "the only hope of human survival is genocide." It is entirely reasonable to shoot first and ask questions never. It's important to remember that guns are far more dangerous than petty magic spells, and far more common. It takes (poorly-defined period of time) to learn that ice blast spell, but the mind-reading non-magic hobo (seriously, vagabond "eyeball a fella" is amazing) can pick up a gun that does twice as much damage without too much effort.

And as the CDF has proudly explained, it's not plot armor that keeps the CS always winning every battle ever; it's simply the fact that the Coalition is the largest, most populous nation. The most reasonable course of action in the face of such a problem is to remove their one titanic strength (superior numbers) with mass death.

Warning: Trolling - make your points without talking about other posters


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:45 pm
  

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Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Well a number of the coalition's enemies would have a problem with this plan, cyber-knights, yeah they would definitely have a problem with along with Erin tarn herself.


So you're admitting the CS' enemies are (in at least some significant cases) morally and ethically superior to the Coalition?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:46 pm
  

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HWalsh wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Thus any CS civilian needs to be assumed to be a combatant, I mean heck, they could be a Psi-Bat using some kind of psychic disguise to appear as a child after all... Right?


THAT seems pretty unlikely.
Ectoplasmic disguise doesn't change height or other physical attributes in that kind of way, Psi-Bat doesn't seem to employ any 1st edition PFRPG Illusionists, and I can't think of any mind-scoobying powers that would easily or reliably pull off that kind of effect.
Most psionic powers along that line could easily be defeated by either a simple Mind Block or by having several people with decent to high savings throws all looking at the same person and communicating about what they see.


Ah... But Killer Cyborg, just like people defend the CS... Do the innocent mages and dbees know that? How do they know that the CS hasn't figured out a way to do it? Can they take that chance CK? Can they really? Isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

(Please tell me you see what I am doing here. :P )


You can make a passably rational argument that destroying the CS, down to the last man, woman, and child, is good for the world overall. It's not a completely unjustifiable position.

Historically, the Spanish wiped out the Aztecs (mostly by accident through disease, but they weren't at all unhappy with the outcome). And you can legitimately make the argument that the world is a much better place without the presence of a massive empire that practiced ritual human sacrifice and enslaved all their neighbors down in South America. And from the perspective of the Spanish, who had just gotten out of a 500 year war for survival against Moorish invaders, seizing wealth in South and Central America was a necessity for them. It's perfectly justifiable to them to go and grab all the wealth they could from a bunch of heathens after they'd just survived a 5 century Islamic jihad in their homeland. It would probably have been a bit harder to justify going house to house and exterminating people (not that they had to do that), but when faced with a massive evil empire, maybe that's what you have to do.

The magic communities of Rifts can probably make the same case against the Coalition. It's justifiable in that sense. Those kids who seem all nice and harmless have been raised in an environment that teaches ideas anathema to your existence. You think little Billy is going to grow up to be a good D-Bee lover when he sees some purple dude with face tentacles incinerate his town? Nope. Sometimes you've just got to finish the job.

Now, from our moral perspective today, obviously that's awful. But we aren't in a war for our very survival. Is Ripley justified in wiping out those facehugger eggs from Aliens before they hatch? It's a scenario we don't face on Real World Earth.

Of course, I think the CS has just as much justification from its perspective as well. It is perfectly possible for each side of a conflict to have legitimate reasons to enter into a brutal war.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:08 pm
  

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Freemage wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Well a number of the coalition's enemies would have a problem with this plan, cyber-knights, yeah they would definitely have a problem with along with Erin tarn herself.


So you're admitting the CS' enemies are (in at least some significant cases) morally and ethically superior to the Coalition?

Some are, then again some coalition folks are more morally and ethically then their enemies

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:15 pm
  

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HWalsh wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Thus any CS civilian needs to be assumed to be a combatant, I mean heck, they could be a Psi-Bat using some kind of psychic disguise to appear as a child after all... Right?


THAT seems pretty unlikely.
Ectoplasmic disguise doesn't change height or other physical attributes in that kind of way, Psi-Bat doesn't seem to employ any 1st edition PFRPG Illusionists, and I can't think of any mind-scoobying powers that would easily or reliably pull off that kind of effect.
Most psionic powers along that line could easily be defeated by either a simple Mind Block or by having several people with decent to high savings throws all looking at the same person and communicating about what they see.


Ah... But Killer Cyborg, just like people defend the CS... Do the innocent mages and dbees know that? How do they know that the CS hasn't figured out a way to do it? Can they take that chance CK? Can they really? Isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

(Please tell me you see what I am doing here. :P )


I do... but you're doing it poorly. :p
The fact of Rifts earth is that there really ARE countless human and inhuman beings who can shapechange into other forms and still pose an incredible danger. Many mages and many monsters can look like a child, or a cat, and hit you with mega-damage force the moment that your back is turned.
There IS some legitimate reason for the CS paranoia, especially considering that they are citizens specifically immersed in a society of intense and constant propaganda that both feeds and focuses this paranoia.

Most mages and d-bees don't grow up in a society that teaches them that it's likely for CS psychics to have that kind of power, or to use it that way, so it's not a reasonable behavior for most mages and d-bees to assume that a baby is a secret psychic powerhouse.

If you're looking for ways for d-bees or mages to morally justify killing CS babies, you're looking in the wrong direction, because it's an unreasonable direction.

All you really have to do is to consider:
-Many uneducated people might well believe that parental attitudes are inherited by the children. Remember, most mages and d-bees are NOT scientists, and will not grasp our current, modern, well-educated understanding of genetics and psychology.
So killing the baby is justifiable under the ignorant assumption that it will necessarily grow up to have the same toxic prejudices that its parents did, and that it will likewise seek to kill all D-Bees/Mages/Demons/Vampires/whatever.

-The legitimate fear about babies when it comes to CS psychics is that the baby itself might be a psychic: specifically a psi-stalker, psi-nullifier, or nega-psychic.
Any number of mages, d-bees, or magical/supernatural creatures might have some justification in believing that any one of these creatures is an inherent threat, given the very nature of those particular psychic mutations.

-Historically, there are only three things to do with the babies of defeated enemies.
1. Raise them in your own tribe/nation/clan/whatever as one of your own.
But not all d-bees/mages have that kind of time or parental ability. If you're a mage or dragon who has single-handedly slaughtered a CS town/village, leaving dozens or hundreds of children orphaned, it's simply NOT possible for you to implement this option.
Moreover, this option allows for the possibility that the child will one day learn of its heritage, and will seek revenge. The more children this option is used for, the more such revenge-seekers there will be, and ultimately the results could be continuing this war into the next generation instead of ending it for once and for all.
2. Abandon them.
Ever wonder why so many old stories (Hansel & Gretal, Moses, Oedipus, Romuls & Remus, etc.) deal with parents abandoning children in the wilderness?
It's because this used to be THE standard of behavior if parents couldn't bring up a child. The idea was generally that it's wrong to murder a child, but not so bad to give it a fighting chance by leaving it in the wilderness where the gods will either provide for it or not. Who knows? Maybe it'll be eaten by wolves, or maybe it'll be raised by wolves. Either way, it's not YOUR fault.
Or so the thinking went.
I don't know of any specific stories of children being abandoned by its parents' killer(s) during a war, but it's hard to imagine that it wasn't done.
This has the same downside of potential revenge-seeking as the first option, though, and of continuing the war to the next generation. Also, if the baby is a psi-stalker, and it survives...
3. Give Them Away.
The old "basket on the doorstep" trick. Only with a lot more baskets on a lot more doorsteps.
Pretty much the same as 1 & 2 above if you don't ask first.
Even if you find people who want to raise CS babies, the problems of revenge-seeking and such still all exist.
4. Just put them out of their misery.
The only real way to ensure that the children of your slain enemies don't later seek revenge against you and yours is to kill them.
It's also (insofar as many ignorant d-bees & mages know) the only way to end the cycle of aggressive prejudice of the CS, to stop the children from growing up with the same powers and attitudes that threaten the planet.
It's more human than leaving them to starve on a mountainside. It's often more human than dumping them with somebody of completely unknown character. It's far more practical when dealing with masses of orphans left over after a war.
It's not necessarily What Jesus Would Do, but it most certainly is What Moses Would Do.
It is historically the standard of behavior for most of history, especially when the ones trying to deal with the problem of the orphans don't have the time, energy, infrastructure, etc. to raise and provide for the children themselves.
5. Eat them, because human babies are tasty.
Keep in mind, when you're dealing with D-Bees, you're often dealing with inhuman creatures that do not see humans as equals. Many even see humans as a food source.
Even leaving aside outright demonic and monstrous races like the Brodkil and such, there are plenty of inhuman races out there like the Simvan, orcs, ogres, trolls, etc. etc. who have absolutely zero moral qualms about eating other sapients, including humans.
So for many races out there, the orphans of war aren't a moral issue; they're a snack.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:04 pm
  

Hero

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
5. Eat them, because human babies are tasty.
Keep in mind, when you're dealing with D-Bees, you're often dealing with inhuman creatures that do not see humans as equals. Many even see humans as a food source.
Even leaving aside outright demonic and monstrous races like the Brodkil and such, there are plenty of inhuman races out there like the Simvan, orcs, ogres, trolls, etc. etc. who have absolutely zero moral qualms about eating other sapients, including humans.
So for many races out there, the orphans of war aren't a moral issue; they're a snack.


I want my baby back, baby back, baby back... Ribs.

Baby... The other, other white meat...


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:15 pm
  

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ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:47 pm
  

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HWalsh wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
5. Eat them, because human babies are tasty.
Keep in mind, when you're dealing with D-Bees, you're often dealing with inhuman creatures that do not see humans as equals. Many even see humans as a food source.
Even leaving aside outright demonic and monstrous races like the Brodkil and such, there are plenty of inhuman races out there like the Simvan, orcs, ogres, trolls, etc. etc. who have absolutely zero moral qualms about eating other sapients, including humans.
So for many races out there, the orphans of war aren't a moral issue; they're a snack.


I want my baby back, baby back, baby back... Ribs.

Baby... The other, other white meat...


:ok:

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:51 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:03 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?


The key difference here is that Xiticix and the Mechanoids have no known 'civilians'. They hate and slaughter anything that isn't themselves, on a purely instinctive level, and operate as part of a hive-mind, which, as noted earlier, exists on a much different level than other species, be they human or D-Bee. But that doesn't apply to the vast majority of D-Bee races.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:19 pm
  

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Freemage wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?


The key difference here is that Xiticix and the Mechanoids have no known 'civilians'.


I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

Quote:
They hate and slaughter anything that isn't themselves, on a purely instinctive level,


Not exactly.
The Mechanoids hate anything that is humanoid, but they're open to working with non-humanoids.
I don't recall anything in the books discussing the xiticix hating anybody.

Quote:
and operate as part of a hive-mind


Neither the xiticix nor the mechanoids are hive minds.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:32 pm
  

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Freemage wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?


The key difference here is that Xiticix and the Mechanoids have no known 'civilians'. They hate and slaughter anything that isn't themselves, on a purely instinctive level, and operate as part of a hive-mind, which, as noted earlier, exists on a much different level than other species, be they human or D-Bee.


That's racist!


;)

The issue here is that Rifts Earth is an environment where our traditional western beliefs about equality and civil rights run head-first into problems of survival as a species. Sure, it's great to have equality, but not if we're all equally dead. Once you're engaged in a species-wide fight against extinction, the niceties of civilization begin to fall by the wayside.

Look at the alien from the John Carpenter movie "The Thing". In case you haven't seen the movie (spoilers for a 35 year old movie), it's a shape-changing creature that can infect and then imitate other life forms. So if you are hanging out with the Thing (who happens to look and act just like your buddy Steve at the time), then it can ambush you, infect you, and take you over. Now there are two Things. You-Thing still looks like you, and Steve-Thing still looks like Steve. But you're not really you. You're an imitation. In the film, a research team in Antarctica encounter this creature, but at first they don't realize it. They think it's a sled dog from another camp, and they let it wander around their base for a few hours. When they finally realize what is going on, they don't know who is man, and who is alien.

While the Coalition isn't facing that particular creature (everybody on Rifts Earth would already be a Thing by now if it was around), they are facing enemies that can disguise themselves as people they are not. Remember when Will Smith shot that cardboard cutout of the 8 year old girl in Men in Black? The one who was carrying around Quantum Physics textbooks? It's played for laughs in that movie. In Rifts, it's something you've actually got to worry about. The main rulebook specifically tells us that dragons and men of magic can change shape to look like harmless individuals.

How do you distinguish between a civilian and a soldier in a world where the other side doesn't wear uniforms, doesn't need guns, and can change shape to look like anybody?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:59 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10721
Eagle wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?


The key difference here is that Xiticix and the Mechanoids have no known 'civilians'. They hate and slaughter anything that isn't themselves, on a purely instinctive level, and operate as part of a hive-mind, which, as noted earlier, exists on a much different level than other species, be they human or D-Bee.


That's racist!


;)

The issue here is that Rifts Earth is an environment where our traditional western beliefs about equality and civil rights run head-first into problems of survival as a species. Sure, it's great to have equality, but not if we're all equally dead. Once you're engaged in a species-wide fight against extinction, the niceties of civilization begin to fall by the wayside.

Look at the alien from the John Carpenter movie "The Thing". In case you haven't seen the movie (spoilers for a 35 year old movie), it's a shape-changing creature that can infect and then imitate other life forms. So if you are hanging out with the Thing (who happens to look and act just like your buddy Steve at the time), then it can ambush you, infect you, and take you over. Now there are two Things. You-Thing still looks like you, and Steve-Thing still looks like Steve. But you're not really you. You're an imitation. In the film, a research team in Antarctica encounter this creature, but at first they don't realize it. They think it's a sled dog from another camp, and they let it wander around their base for a few hours. When they finally realize what is going on, they don't know who is man, and who is alien.

While the Coalition isn't facing that particular creature (everybody on Rifts Earth would already be a Thing by now if it was around), they are facing enemies that can disguise themselves as people they are not. Remember when Will Smith shot that cardboard cutout of the 8 year old girl in Men in Black? The one who was carrying around Quantum Physics textbooks? It's played for laughs in that movie. In Rifts, it's something you've actually got to worry about. The main rulebook specifically tells us that dragons and men of magic can change shape to look like harmless individuals.

How do you distinguish between a civilian and a soldier in a world where the other side doesn't wear uniforms, doesn't need guns, and can change shape to look like anybody?


Except you're ignoring the small but important detail that Will Smith's character DIDN'T shoot or kill any of the obvious aliens, because in spite of being obvious aliens he didn't evaluate any of them to be threats and felt they were all engaged in perfectly acceptable non-threatening activities. Everyone else in that test shot the obvious aliens for no other reason than they were aliens (sounds like they'd do well in the CS), only Will's character actually evaluated the scene and took the time to determine which if any of the targets were to be considered threats to shoot.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:14 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:36 am
Posts: 1021
Eagle wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?


The key difference here is that Xiticix and the Mechanoids have no known 'civilians'. They hate and slaughter anything that isn't themselves, on a purely instinctive level, and operate as part of a hive-mind, which, as noted earlier, exists on a much different level than other species, be they human or D-Bee.


That's racist!


;)

The issue here is that Rifts Earth is an environment where our traditional western beliefs about equality and civil rights run head-first into problems of survival as a species. Sure, it's great to have equality, but not if we're all equally dead. Once you're engaged in a species-wide fight against extinction, the niceties of civilization begin to fall by the wayside.

Look at the alien from the John Carpenter movie "The Thing". In case you haven't seen the movie (spoilers for a 35 year old movie), it's a shape-changing creature that can infect and then imitate other life forms. So if you are hanging out with the Thing (who happens to look and act just like your buddy Steve at the time), then it can ambush you, infect you, and take you over. Now there are two Things. You-Thing still looks like you, and Steve-Thing still looks like Steve. But you're not really you. You're an imitation. In the film, a research team in Antarctica encounter this creature, but at first they don't realize it. They think it's a sled dog from another camp, and they let it wander around their base for a few hours. When they finally realize what is going on, they don't know who is man, and who is alien.

While the Coalition isn't facing that particular creature (everybody on Rifts Earth would already be a Thing by now if it was around), they are facing enemies that can disguise themselves as people they are not. Remember when Will Smith shot that cardboard cutout of the 8 year old girl in Men in Black? The one who was carrying around Quantum Physics textbooks? It's played for laughs in that movie. In Rifts, it's something you've actually got to worry about. The main rulebook specifically tells us that dragons and men of magic can change shape to look like harmless individuals.

How do you distinguish between a civilian and a soldier in a world where the other side doesn't wear uniforms, doesn't need guns, and can change shape to look like anybody?


You have Agent J completely read wrong.

The CS is the OPPOSITE of Agent J.

The CS is every other agent there.

Zed: "Why did little Tiffany deserve to die?"

J: "Well she was the only one that actually seemed dangerous at the time sir."

(The other prospects roll their eyes.)

Zed: "How did you come to that conclusion?"

J: "Well first I was going to pop this guy hanging from the street light, but then I realized he was just working out. I mean how would I feel if someone busted up in the gym while I was on the treadmill? Then I saw this snarling beast guy then I noticed that he had a tissue in his hand, and I realized he's not snarling, he's sneezing, ain't no threat there. Then I saw little Tiffany and I thought, wait, 8 year old white girl in the middle of the night hanging out with all these monsters up in the ghetto with quantum physics books? She's about to start some (censored), she's like 8 years old, those books are way too advanced for her."

-----

In the CS? J would have been killed for that. The correct answer with the CS is... Human good! Alien! Bad! Human hanging out with Alien? BAD! Kill all of them!


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:24 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 2943
Next up: "Genocide against non-Xiticix? Is it morally justified?"

Just tryin to feed my children and find a place to live when a bunch of Torontonians Technowizards and Chicagoite Commandos come and burn MY BABIES. World makes sport of it. Nobody helps. Literally making new life forms from alien corpses and recruiting necromancers just to kill us.

All we wanted was a home in this new world. Is that too much to ask? Just a little hungry. Spare some food and space. We aren't aggressors.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:36 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?


The key difference here is that Xiticix and the Mechanoids have no known 'civilians'.


I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

definitely a grey area. but with the mechanoid, IIRC, those classes are armed and will attempt to kill you if they see you. which means they fall more under combat engineers or other military support roles rather than civilians, making them valid targets.

the xiticix are a thornier problem, since IIRC they won't automatically attack you.. but will summon warriors if they detect you. not to mention the issue that nits and grubs will eventually grow up into a full hive including warriors.

however since the Xiticix are hard to classify as being sentient and sapient, you might be able to defend it ethically as dealing with an invasive species. (and since the rifts earth hives are just an offshoot of whole worlds of them somewhere, you don;t have the issues of 'driving a species to extinction' the way you do with some invasive species on earth, where they might be endangered in their native habitat but invasive elsewhere)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:37 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9030
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
ultimately, genocide is never ethical. can you wage war with the CS and it be ethical? yes. can you inflict fairly massive damage to that nation? sure. can you conquer it? sure. you can take all those courses while remaining reasonably ethical. but the moment you start targeting the civilians directly, you've step outside of the realm of ethical actions and into a very unethical realm. in the case of the CS, taking that course would be to become no better than they were/are.
now, do nations do such unethical things? yes. our own history is rife with it. and everyone 'justifies it'. the nazi's and japanese justified their extermination of entire ethnic groups. America justified attempts to brainwash and eliminate entire native cultures, as well as justified slavery. the firebombings of dresden and tokyo, the nuclear bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were 'justified' before and after they happened.

ultimately 'justification' just means "i have convinced myself and others that this thing i do is right.. even when i know it isn't"


Was the genocide of the Mechanoids on Rifts Earth (assuming that they ones rifted here were wiped out in your campaignworld) unethical, then?
Do you see a non-genocidal solution to the current problem with the Xiticix?


The key difference here is that Xiticix and the Mechanoids have no known 'civilians'.


I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

Then you would be wrong because those are not civilians.
Every one of those (other than maybe the children) are simply military support personal. Just because a soldier is driving a supply truck, or is a lawyer, or a supply clerk, or a Drill Sergeant doesn't mean they are a Civilian.
You do not have to be a front line combatant to be a soldier.
And in the case of the Xiticix there is the additional problem that there is no possible way to defend one's self against the soldiers that does not involve both genocide, and that will not result in the children dying, either directly or indirectly. Add in that there is no outcome for the grubs but to become a soldier and they would actually likely count as military themselves.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Quote:
They hate and slaughter anything that isn't themselves, on a purely instinctive level,


Not exactly.
The Mechanoids hate anything that is humanoid, but they're open to working with non-humanoids.
I don't recall anything in the books discussing the xiticix hating anybody.

The book is pretty explicit that the Xiticix exterminate all other life and allow no competition AND that there is no communicating with them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Quote:
and operate as part of a hive-mind


Neither the xiticix nor the mechanoids are hive minds.

True, they are both simply hyper communal.
The Xitcix though are explicitly described as having no personal sense of individual valuation so that is basically a hive mentality
The Mechanoids also seem from the books to have very little individuality in the general ranks (Runners, Wasps, etc.) and they do seem to consider themselves totally expendable.

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:45 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
HWalsh wrote:
2. The CS, by claiming to be the continuation of the pre-Cataclysm society, are aggressors.

Another common argument in the defense of the CS is that they are the official and rightful inheritors of humanity, meaning pre-cataclysm humanity, and as such they have a right to all areas of the Earth as Earth is the property of those humans. Magic using humans have violated the rules of humanity as determined by the CS and such don't count as human.

Well, let us flip this on its head. The pre-cataclysm humans caused the rifts by lighting a match known as thermonuclear war. This caused a surge of PPE to come from billions of slaughtered humans and thus, combined with a celestial alignment, blew open the rifts. When this happened millions of innocent dbees who had never even heard of Earth, were ripped away from their homes, kidnapped basically, and deposited on a hostile alien world. I don't know about you, but if you kidnapped my family, then said it was okay to murder them all, then I would be quite upset. They are responsible for all of the pain and suffering felt by every dbee on Earth. Every death, human or dbee, related to a dbee would never have happened if humans hadn't dropped those bombs... So... Yeah... The CS, by claiming that mantle... Also claimed the responsibility for the pain that they caused.

No need to go that far

The CS is obviously not the heirs of the Earth.
This is demonstrable simply by the fact that
Premise 1: The True Atlantians, Lemurians and Nazca were the first people to have a civilization on the planet Earth.
Premise 2: None of them ever renounced their claims to the world (for bonus points, The Atlantians didn't actually leave the earth either so there was continuous presence)
Conclusion: Thus the world belongs to the Mages and anyone seeking to dislodge magic is a traitor

Follow up

Premise 1: Treason in all three nations is punishable by death
Premise 2: Aiding and abetting a criminal is a crime in itself, and is punishable by the same sentence
Conclusion: Therefor, ALL members of the Criminal Organization known as "The Coalition States" are Traitors to the State and under legal sentence of death. They can, and should be, legally be cut down by anyone as an act of law enforcement.

(There, how is that?)

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:59 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:36 am
Posts: 1021
eliakon wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
2. The CS, by claiming to be the continuation of the pre-Cataclysm society, are aggressors.

Another common argument in the defense of the CS is that they are the official and rightful inheritors of humanity, meaning pre-cataclysm humanity, and as such they have a right to all areas of the Earth as Earth is the property of those humans. Magic using humans have violated the rules of humanity as determined by the CS and such don't count as human.

Well, let us flip this on its head. The pre-cataclysm humans caused the rifts by lighting a match known as thermonuclear war. This caused a surge of PPE to come from billions of slaughtered humans and thus, combined with a celestial alignment, blew open the rifts. When this happened millions of innocent dbees who had never even heard of Earth, were ripped away from their homes, kidnapped basically, and deposited on a hostile alien world. I don't know about you, but if you kidnapped my family, then said it was okay to murder them all, then I would be quite upset. They are responsible for all of the pain and suffering felt by every dbee on Earth. Every death, human or dbee, related to a dbee would never have happened if humans hadn't dropped those bombs... So... Yeah... The CS, by claiming that mantle... Also claimed the responsibility for the pain that they caused.

No need to go that far

The CS is obviously not the heirs of the Earth.
This is demonstrable simply by the fact that
Premise 1: The True Atlantians, Lemurians and Nazca were the first people to have a civilization on the planet Earth.
Premise 2: None of them ever renounced their claims to the world (for bonus points, The Atlantians didn't actually leave the earth either so there was continuous presence)
Conclusion: Thus the world belongs to the Mages and anyone seeking to dislodge magic is a traitor

Follow up

Premise 1: Treason in all three nations is punishable by death
Premise 2: Aiding and abetting a criminal is a crime in itself, and is punishable by the same sentence
Conclusion: Therefor, ALL members of the Criminal Organization known as "The Coalition States" are Traitors to the State and under legal sentence of death. They can, and should be, legally be cut down by anyone as an act of law enforcement.

(There, how is that?)


Oh! Nice, I can even possibly push some of this even better:

If we agree that the Lemurians and the Atlanteans are as legitimate as Humanity to having potential "claim" on the Earth, and since the big defense that Axelmania, one of the major proponents of the CS Defense, uses is that the New Navy recognizes the CS as the successor to the United States government, even if I disagree and I don't think that the New Navy has the authority to do that, then we have an endorsement issue...

Because the Lemurians and Atlanteans both are allies of the Cyber-Knights who actively endorse Lazlo, meaning that Lazlo is recognized by 2 of Earth's 3 civilizations while the CS is only recognized by 1. This can get better, since the Republicans are ACTUALLY the successors to the US Government, the New Navy's endorsements don't matter. The Republicans don't endorse the CS as they are planning to overthrow it. Meaning that NO ORIGINAL EARTH CIVILIZATION actually endorses the Coalition States.

Meaning that the Coalition States are an illegitimate government trying to claim a seat of power that they are not entitled to and as such and are occupying territory that they, by their own claims, have no right to occupy.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:01 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

definitely a grey area. but with the mechanoid, IIRC, those classes are armed and will attempt to kill you if they see you. which means they fall more under combat engineers or other military support roles rather than civilians, making them valid targets.


MIT 121-123
Some of the listed classes of mechanoid will not engage in combat unless directed.
Others don't describe whether or not they will attack, nor in what circumstances.
Because the Mechanoids are by their nature a militaristic species, there's a fine line between "combat engineer" and just "engineer."
But there have been human civilizations that were much the same, where a tribe may have specific warriors, but where everybody hates the enemy, everybody works to serve and support the warrior class, and so forth.

Quote:
the xiticix are a thornier problem, since IIRC they won't automatically attack you.. but will summon warriors if they detect you. not to mention the issue that nits and grubs will eventually grow up into a full hive including warriors.


Civilians will often sound the alarm if they detect members of an enemy army in their territory.

Quote:
however since the Xiticix are hard to classify as being sentient and sapient, you might be able to defend it ethically as dealing with an invasive species. (and since the rifts earth hives are just an offshoot of whole worlds of them somewhere, you don;t have the issues of 'driving a species to extinction' the way you do with some invasive species on earth, where they might be endangered in their native habitat but invasive elsewhere)


True, but it nets out as "dehumanizing the enemy," a tried and true tool of genocidals everywhere.
"They're not like us" is the most common rallying cry.

You are likewise correct about extinction not being an issue, but it doesn't have to be in order for genocide to occur by modern standards.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:03 pm
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
HWalsh wrote:
eliakon wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
2. The CS, by claiming to be the continuation of the pre-Cataclysm society, are aggressors.

Another common argument in the defense of the CS is that they are the official and rightful inheritors of humanity, meaning pre-cataclysm humanity, and as such they have a right to all areas of the Earth as Earth is the property of those humans. Magic using humans have violated the rules of humanity as determined by the CS and such don't count as human.

Well, let us flip this on its head. The pre-cataclysm humans caused the rifts by lighting a match known as thermonuclear war. This caused a surge of PPE to come from billions of slaughtered humans and thus, combined with a celestial alignment, blew open the rifts. When this happened millions of innocent dbees who had never even heard of Earth, were ripped away from their homes, kidnapped basically, and deposited on a hostile alien world. I don't know about you, but if you kidnapped my family, then said it was okay to murder them all, then I would be quite upset. They are responsible for all of the pain and suffering felt by every dbee on Earth. Every death, human or dbee, related to a dbee would never have happened if humans hadn't dropped those bombs... So... Yeah... The CS, by claiming that mantle... Also claimed the responsibility for the pain that they caused.

No need to go that far

The CS is obviously not the heirs of the Earth.
This is demonstrable simply by the fact that
Premise 1: The True Atlantians, Lemurians and Nazca were the first people to have a civilization on the planet Earth.
Premise 2: None of them ever renounced their claims to the world (for bonus points, The Atlantians didn't actually leave the earth either so there was continuous presence)
Conclusion: Thus the world belongs to the Mages and anyone seeking to dislodge magic is a traitor

Follow up

Premise 1: Treason in all three nations is punishable by death
Premise 2: Aiding and abetting a criminal is a crime in itself, and is punishable by the same sentence
Conclusion: Therefor, ALL members of the Criminal Organization known as "The Coalition States" are Traitors to the State and under legal sentence of death. They can, and should be, legally be cut down by anyone as an act of law enforcement.

(There, how is that?)


Oh! Nice, I can even possibly push some of this even better:

If we agree that the Lemurians and the Atlanteans are as legitimate as Humanity to having potential "claim" on the Earth, and since the big defense that Axelmania, one of the major proponents of the CS Defense, uses is that the New Navy recognizes the CS as the successor to the United States government, even if I disagree and I don't think that the New Navy has the authority to do that, then we have an endorsement issue...

Because the Lemurians and Atlanteans both are allies of the Cyber-Knights who actively endorse Lazlo, meaning that Lazlo is recognized by 2 of Earth's 3 civilizations while the CS is only recognized by 1. This can get better, since the Republicans are ACTUALLY the successors to the US Government, the New Navy's endorsements don't matter. The Republicans don't endorse the CS as they are planning to overthrow it. Meaning that NO ORIGINAL EARTH CIVILIZATION actually endorses the Coalition States.

Meaning that the Coalition States are an illegitimate government trying to claim a seat of power that they are not entitled to and as such and are occupying territory that they, by their own claims, have no right to occupy.


Those are all good examples of the kind of thinking that nations have used to justify wars and genocide throughout history.
:ok:

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:05 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
eliakon wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
2. The CS, by claiming to be the continuation of the pre-Cataclysm society, are aggressors.

Another common argument in the defense of the CS is that they are the official and rightful inheritors of humanity, meaning pre-cataclysm humanity, and as such they have a right to all areas of the Earth as Earth is the property of those humans. Magic using humans have violated the rules of humanity as determined by the CS and such don't count as human.

Well, let us flip this on its head. The pre-cataclysm humans caused the rifts by lighting a match known as thermonuclear war. This caused a surge of PPE to come from billions of slaughtered humans and thus, combined with a celestial alignment, blew open the rifts. When this happened millions of innocent dbees who had never even heard of Earth, were ripped away from their homes, kidnapped basically, and deposited on a hostile alien world. I don't know about you, but if you kidnapped my family, then said it was okay to murder them all, then I would be quite upset. They are responsible for all of the pain and suffering felt by every dbee on Earth. Every death, human or dbee, related to a dbee would never have happened if humans hadn't dropped those bombs... So... Yeah... The CS, by claiming that mantle... Also claimed the responsibility for the pain that they caused.

No need to go that far

The CS is obviously not the heirs of the Earth.
This is demonstrable simply by the fact that
Premise 1: The True Atlantians, Lemurians and Nazca were the first people to have a civilization on the planet Earth.
Premise 2: None of them ever renounced their claims to the world (for bonus points, The Atlantians didn't actually leave the earth either so there was continuous presence)
Conclusion: Thus the world belongs to the Mages and anyone seeking to dislodge magic is a traitor

Follow up

Premise 1: Treason in all three nations is punishable by death
Premise 2: Aiding and abetting a criminal is a crime in itself, and is punishable by the same sentence
Conclusion: Therefor, ALL members of the Criminal Organization known as "The Coalition States" are Traitors to the State and under legal sentence of death. They can, and should be, legally be cut down by anyone as an act of law enforcement.

(There, how is that?)


Oh! Nice, I can even possibly push some of this even better:

If we agree that the Lemurians and the Atlanteans are as legitimate as Humanity to having potential "claim" on the Earth, and since the big defense that Axelmania, one of the major proponents of the CS Defense, uses is that the New Navy recognizes the CS as the successor to the United States government, even if I disagree and I don't think that the New Navy has the authority to do that, then we have an endorsement issue...

Because the Lemurians and Atlanteans both are allies of the Cyber-Knights who actively endorse Lazlo, meaning that Lazlo is recognized by 2 of Earth's 3 civilizations while the CS is only recognized by 1. This can get better, since the Republicans are ACTUALLY the successors to the US Government, the New Navy's endorsements don't matter. The Republicans don't endorse the CS as they are planning to overthrow it. Meaning that NO ORIGINAL EARTH CIVILIZATION actually endorses the Coalition States.

Meaning that the Coalition States are an illegitimate government trying to claim a seat of power that they are not entitled to and as such and are occupying territory that they, by their own claims, have no right to occupy.


Those are all good examples of the kind of thinking that nations have used to justify wars and genocide throughout history.
:ok:

Which was the point of the exercise really.
To point out that the Coalition Defense Force here on the boards is just doing that.
Justifying genocide and wars of aggression and conquest when it suits them by picking the predetermined outcome (that the CS is right) and finding what ever argument they can that will support that and then claiming that is the only valid one and that all contrary arguments are really just fake.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:09 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

Then you would be wrong because those are not civilians.
Every one of those (other than maybe the children) are simply military support personal. Just because a soldier is driving a supply truck, or is a lawyer, or a supply clerk, or a Drill Sergeant doesn't mean they are a Civilian.
You do not have to be a front line combatant to be a soldier.


Please cite your source that the xiticix and mechanoids I mentioned are in fact soldiers/military.

Quote:
And in the case of the Xiticix there is the additional problem that there is no possible way to defend one's self against the soldiers that does not involve both genocide, and that will not result in the children dying, either directly or indirectly.


A lot of this hinges on what definition/standard of "ethics" is being used.
Under some forms, consequences matter. Under some forms, only behavior matters.

Quote:
Add in that there is no outcome for the grubs but to become a soldier and they would actually likely count as military themselves.


Untrue. Grubs can also become nannies, queens, diggers, and so forth.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Quote:
They hate and slaughter anything that isn't themselves, on a purely instinctive level,


Not exactly.
The Mechanoids hate anything that is humanoid, but they're open to working with non-humanoids.
I don't recall anything in the books discussing the xiticix hating anybody.


The book is pretty explicit that the Xiticix exterminate all other life and allow no competition AND that there is no communicating with them.


Correct.
My statement was "I don't recall anything in the books discussing the xiticix hating anybody."
So let me know if you know of anything in the books that discusses the xiticix hating anybody.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Quote:
and operate as part of a hive-mind


Neither the xiticix nor the mechanoids are hive minds.

True, they are both simply hyper communal.


:ok:

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Those are all good examples of the kind of thinking that nations have used to justify wars and genocide throughout history.
:ok:

Which was the point of the exercise really.


I had hoped that it was.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:17 pm
  

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HWalsh wrote:
You have Agent J completely read wrong.

The CS is the OPPOSITE of Agent J.

The CS is every other agent there.

Zed: "Why did little Tiffany deserve to die?"

J: "Well she was the only one that actually seemed dangerous at the time sir."

(The other prospects roll their eyes.)

Zed: "How did you come to that conclusion?"

J: "Well first I was going to pop this guy hanging from the street light, but then I realized he was just working out. I mean how would I feel if someone busted up in the gym while I was on the treadmill? Then I saw this snarling beast guy then I noticed that he had a tissue in his hand, and I realized he's not snarling, he's sneezing, ain't no threat there. Then I saw little Tiffany and I thought, wait, 8 year old white girl in the middle of the night hanging out with all these monsters up in the ghetto with quantum physics books? She's about to start some (censored), she's like 8 years old, those books are way too advanced for her."

-----

In the CS? J would have been killed for that. The correct answer with the CS is... Human good! Alien! Bad! Human hanging out with Alien? BAD! Kill all of them!


The fact that the Coalition uses a different standard than J doesn't mean anything. I have never indicated that the Coalition acts like Will Smith. There's no gettin' jiggy with it in Chi-Town. The point is simply that in a world with shape-changing aliens, dragons, and evil wizards, that harmless looking 8 year old girl may not really be so harmless.

Will Smith in MiB merely provides a helpful example of a lawful good-type character shooting a kid in a clear "this isn't what it appears to be" situation. It does not mean that his character embodies the Coalition ideals. It's just that in this situation, Will Smith at the height of his popularity, was able to shoot a kid (really a stand-in for a kid) and still be the clear good guy hero of the film. Because things are not always what they appear to be.

I'd say that after the first time you see your buddy let a little kid go, and then the kid turns into a 50' tall dragon and eats half your squad, after that you'd be more likely to just pull the trigger.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:35 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:

Those are all good examples of the kind of thinking that nations have used to justify wars and genocide throughout history.
:ok:

Which was the point of the exercise really.
To point out that the Coalition Defense Force here on the boards is just doing that.
Justifying genocide and wars of aggression and conquest when it suits them by picking the predetermined outcome (that the CS is right) and finding what ever argument they can that will support that and then claiming that is the only valid one and that all contrary arguments are really just fake.


In the other thread, I said that it may be a perfectly valid position for enemies of the Coalition to take a "kill everyone" view of the CS. I am not blindly supporting them. It is easily possible for two sides to have conflicting interests, each with their own equally valid philosophies or justifications, and for both sides to follow those interests directly into war.

From the CS' perspective, Earth is the only place where humans exist in all the universe (there are actually lots of humans in the Three Galaxies, but the CS doesn't know that). Earth is the home of humanity, a now endangered species. The CS doesn't care where D-Bees go, as long as they get the hell off of Earth. Out of North America, really. This is their ancestral homeland, and now it's crawling with monsters that eat humans. Sorry if you're just a green guy with a funny forehead, but you aren't supposed to be here. For humanity, this is literally a case of survival of the species. Sorry if your town has to get blown up, but there are still lots more of your people on your own homeworld. This is our home.

From the perspective of many D-Bees, they were born here. They didn't choose to come here voluntarily. They don't even know what planet they are originally from. I mean, plunk me down on a random alien world, and good luck to me on trying to point out which star in the sky is our sun. They consider themselves natives. Earth is the only life most of them have ever known. They don't even speak their own language, they speak English. And they say "I have as much a right to be here as you do."

These philosophies are both legitimate from a particular point of view. Remember that the CS generally leaves SDC D-Bees alone (there are tons of them in the Burbs) as long as they keep their heads down, don't use magic, and don't go into a warzone. At least, they don't gun them down on sight if the guy is just sitting there in an alleyway drinking a beer. Their treatment of SDC aliens is similar to the US government's treatment of American Indians in the 19th century. They aren't gonna be nice, but they don't start the indiscriminate killing unless there's been an attack on the CS in the area (subject to the occasional a-hole military officer doing it anyway). This reinforces the idea that the CS is primarily concerned with D-Bees that are MDC. You know, the ones that usually eat people.

From the D-Bee perspective, they're like "hey, most of us don't eat people, you want that guy over there. He eats my people too." So the CS is seen as unduly aggressive.

(Gotta go for now, post more later)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:51 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:36 am
Posts: 1021
Eagle wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
You have Agent J completely read wrong.

The CS is the OPPOSITE of Agent J.

The CS is every other agent there.

Zed: "Why did little Tiffany deserve to die?"

J: "Well she was the only one that actually seemed dangerous at the time sir."

(The other prospects roll their eyes.)

Zed: "How did you come to that conclusion?"

J: "Well first I was going to pop this guy hanging from the street light, but then I realized he was just working out. I mean how would I feel if someone busted up in the gym while I was on the treadmill? Then I saw this snarling beast guy then I noticed that he had a tissue in his hand, and I realized he's not snarling, he's sneezing, ain't no threat there. Then I saw little Tiffany and I thought, wait, 8 year old white girl in the middle of the night hanging out with all these monsters up in the ghetto with quantum physics books? She's about to start some (censored), she's like 8 years old, those books are way too advanced for her."

-----

In the CS? J would have been killed for that. The correct answer with the CS is... Human good! Alien! Bad! Human hanging out with Alien? BAD! Kill all of them!


The fact that the Coalition uses a different standard than J doesn't mean anything. I have never indicated that the Coalition acts like Will Smith. There's no gettin' jiggy with it in Chi-Town. The point is simply that in a world with shape-changing aliens, dragons, and evil wizards, that harmless looking 8 year old girl may not really be so harmless.

Will Smith in MiB merely provides a helpful example of a lawful good-type character shooting a kid in a clear "this isn't what it appears to be" situation. It does not mean that his character embodies the Coalition ideals. It's just that in this situation, Will Smith at the height of his popularity, was able to shoot a kid (really a stand-in for a kid) and still be the clear good guy hero of the film. Because things are not always what they appear to be.

I'd say that after the first time you see your buddy let a little kid go, and then the kid turns into a 50' tall dragon and eats half your squad, after that you'd be more likely to just pull the trigger.


I'm so sick of that claim.

Please show me, in canon, where that happened.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:52 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

Then you would be wrong because those are not civilians.
Every one of those (other than maybe the children) are simply military support personal. Just because a soldier is driving a supply truck, or is a lawyer, or a supply clerk, or a Drill Sergeant doesn't mean they are a Civilian.
You do not have to be a front line combatant to be a soldier.


Please cite your source that the xiticix and mechanoids I mentioned are in fact soldiers/military.

Ummm their books?
You do understand what the term "support personnel" is yes?
Example.
The Entire Mechanoid Civilization is explicitly dedicated to the extermination of Humanity. It is their stated mission.
They then go on to describe the rigid chain of command, and how each sub rank follows all orders from those above it...
Hmmm. Lets see.
Organized force, that has a stated goal of conquest and extermination with a rigid hierarchy and chain of command.
Gee, that sounds like the definition of "military"
And every mechanoid is in that chain of command. There are no units that are outside of the chain of command.

The Xictix are the same way.
The entire species is organized for a singular purpose. They all take orders from a single commander.
A digger for instance may not attack a person themselves. But they are the unit that is making military fortifications and producing the weaponry. Combat engineers are military.
Just because you don't have a rifle doesn't make you a Civilian.
The Chaplin is a solider, the medical Orderly is a soldier, the JAG lawyer is a soldier.
If you want to claim that someone is a civilian in a fully militarized society the burden is on YOU to cite a source that says that they are a civilian.
Since as written the entire race is fully mobilized and every member is working full time for the military... which makes them soldiers, the only difference is if they are line or support
Nannies though are repeatedly described as 'commanding other troops' and being 'leaders' of soldiers.
Civilians are not in command positions over soldiers.
And if there are no civilians in the Xiticix, then the question of if it is possible for a grub to be a civilian is a valid one. Since it is going to be a solider 100% no other option.

Now if you have a source that says that these are civilians by all means.
But otherwise they are what they are.
Explicitly parts of organized groups that have, as part of their organizational purpose, the extermination of the nations of North America.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:56 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Eagle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:

Those are all good examples of the kind of thinking that nations have used to justify wars and genocide throughout history.
:ok:

Which was the point of the exercise really.
To point out that the Coalition Defense Force here on the boards is just doing that.
Justifying genocide and wars of aggression and conquest when it suits them by picking the predetermined outcome (that the CS is right) and finding what ever argument they can that will support that and then claiming that is the only valid one and that all contrary arguments are really just fake.


In the other thread, I said that it may be a perfectly valid position for enemies of the Coalition to take a "kill everyone" view of the CS. I am not blindly supporting them. It is easily possible for two sides to have conflicting interests, each with their own equally valid philosophies or justifications, and for both sides to follow those interests directly into war.

From the CS' perspective, Earth is the only place where humans exist in all the universe (there are actually lots of humans in the Three Galaxies, but the CS doesn't know that).

That isn't actually true though.
The CS command is perfectly aware of the presence of Humans in other dimensions.
But that fact damages their political agenda.
This knowledge makes all the rest of your arguments not just wrong, but out right lies. They are self serving lies that are peddled by the High Command to their minions who swallow them and are fooled.
But that doesn't make them any more true.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:04 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

Then you would be wrong because those are not civilians.
Every one of those (other than maybe the children) are simply military support personal. Just because a soldier is driving a supply truck, or is a lawyer, or a supply clerk, or a Drill Sergeant doesn't mean they are a Civilian.
You do not have to be a front line combatant to be a soldier.


Please cite your source that the xiticix and mechanoids I mentioned are in fact soldiers/military.

Ummm their books?


Okay.
What pages, and what quotes specifically?

Quote:
You do understand what the term "support personnel" is yes?


Yes.
I asked about your claim that the xiticix and mechanoids were "soldiers" or "military," NOT about whether the ones I listed were support personnel.

Example.
The Entire Mechanoid Civilization is explicitly dedicated to the extermination of Humanity. It is their stated mission.
They then go on to describe the rigid chain of command, and how each sub rank follows all orders from those above it...
Hmmm. Lets see.
Organized force, that has a stated goal of conquest and extermination with a rigid hierarchy and chain of command.
Gee, that sounds like the definition of "military"
And every mechanoid is in that chain of command. There are no units that are outside of the chain of command.[/quote]

A feudal kingdom might have a rigid chain of command, and a stated goal of conquest or war.
Everybody within the kingdom would fall under the chain of command.
Does that necessarily mean that everybody in the feudal kingdom is a soldier or a member of the military?

Quote:
The Xictix are the same way.


Yes. There is a queen, and a fairly rigid command structure, just as with a feudal kingdom.

Quote:
The entire species is organized for a singular purpose.


What purpose would you say that is?

Quote:
A digger for instance may not attack a person themselves. But they are the unit that is making military fortifications and producing the weaponry.


Hm.
Are you defining "military fortifications" as "any structure that the xiticix use for shelter or transportation?"

Quote:
If you want to claim that someone is a civilian in a fully militarized society the burden is on YOU to cite a source that says that they are a civilian.


If you want to claim that a species is fully militarized, then the burden is on YOU to cite a source.
Hence my question.
;)


Quote:
Nannies though are repeatedly described as 'commanding other troops' and being 'leaders' of soldiers.


Excellent!
Then all you'd need to do to answer my question--as far as nannies go--would be to provide that quote from the books, along with a page number so I can verify it.

Quote:
Civilians are not in command positions over soldiers


POTUS, anyone...?

Quote:
Explicitly parts of organized groups that have, as part of their organizational purpose, the extermination of the nations of North America.


Not exactly, no.
The mechanoids main purpose would be to eat the planet. The extermination of the nations on the planet would be a byproduct of the devouring, not the purpose of it.
The Xiticix want to reproduce and spread, just like every other species. That they exterminate other nations in order to procreate and spread would be a byproduct of their purpose, not their actual purpose.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:07 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Spoiler:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I would classify Cargo Haulers, Black Widows, Octopi, Mantises, and Oracles as potentially being Mechanoid civilians.
Granted, some of these at least were not present on Rifts Earth, but IIRC at least some were there.

With Xiticix, there are the children (nits & grubs), Diggers, and Nannies.

Then you would be wrong because those are not civilians.
Every one of those (other than maybe the children) are simply military support personal. Just because a soldier is driving a supply truck, or is a lawyer, or a supply clerk, or a Drill Sergeant doesn't mean they are a Civilian.
You do not have to be a front line combatant to be a soldier.


Please cite your source that the xiticix and mechanoids I mentioned are in fact soldiers/military.

Ummm their books?


Okay.
What pages, and what quotes specifically?

Quote:
You do understand what the term "support personnel" is yes?


Yes.
I asked about your claim that the xiticix and mechanoids were "soldiers" or "military," NOT about whether the ones I listed were support personnel.

Example.
The Entire Mechanoid Civilization is explicitly dedicated to the extermination of Humanity. It is their stated mission.
They then go on to describe the rigid chain of command, and how each sub rank follows all orders from those above it...
Hmmm. Lets see.
Organized force, that has a stated goal of conquest and extermination with a rigid hierarchy and chain of command.
Gee, that sounds like the definition of "military"
And every mechanoid is in that chain of command. There are no units that are outside of the chain of command.


A feudal kingdom might have a rigid chain of command, and a stated goal of conquest or war.
Everybody within the kingdom would fall under the chain of command.
Does that necessarily mean that everybody in the feudal kingdom is a soldier or a member of the military?

Quote:
The Xictix are the same way.


Yes. There is a queen, and a fairly rigid command structure, just as with a feudal kingdom.

Quote:
The entire species is organized for a singular purpose.


What purpose would you say that is?

Quote:
A digger for instance may not attack a person themselves. But they are the unit that is making military fortifications and producing the weaponry.


Hm.
Are you defining "military fortifications" as "any structure that the xiticix use for shelter or transportation?"

Quote:
If you want to claim that someone is a civilian in a fully militarized society the burden is on YOU to cite a source that says that they are a civilian.


If you want to claim that a species is fully militarized, then the burden is on YOU to cite a source.
Hence my question.
;)


Quote:
Nannies though are repeatedly described as 'commanding other troops' and being 'leaders' of soldiers.


Excellent!
Then all you'd need to do to answer my question--as far as nannies go--would be to provide that quote from the books, along with a page number so I can verify it.

Quote:
Civilians are not in command positions over soldiers


POTUS, anyone...?

Quote:
Explicitly parts of organized groups that have, as part of their organizational purpose, the extermination of the nations of North America.


Not exactly, no.
The mechanoids main purpose would be to eat the planet. The extermination of the nations on the planet would be a byproduct of the devouring, not the purpose of it.
The Xiticix want to reproduce and spread, just like every other species. That they exterminate other nations in order to procreate and spread would be a byproduct of their purpose, not their actual purpose.[/quote]

I should know better by now than to discuss things with you and Axel
I have better things to do that play semantic word games with trolls


Warning: Personal attacks.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:16 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:27 am
Posts: 136
First off, I want to retract the term "hive-mind" from my earlier post, at least with respect to the Xitixic; they are a hive society, but not a literal hive-mind.

The Mechanoids are a bit of a different case. It's made pretty clear that their psychic abilities have, at several key points in their history, caused a linking of minds that cause them to shift, as a race, their direction. In particular, the rage at their betrayal by the humans that bred them was something that ripped through the species psychically, rather than through the normal methods of transmitting information. It's not a perfect hive-mind, but it's certainly more than just a tight-knit society.

To those who say the Mechanoid labor class are 'civilians', I ask: What happens if a Mechanoid laborer encounters a lone human, or even a few humans, who are not heavily armed and armored? I'm pretty sure it's still a slaughter--the Mechanoids are specifically mentioned as preferring superior situations, but none of them* will hesitate to kill humanoids in a situation where they have the advantage.

And since the grubs will inevitably grow up to be warriors, there's no alternative to killing them that doesn't mean you get attacked by them later, other than fleeing. Their instincts are very much driven to invade the entirety of the planet--if they 'just wanted a home' that was meant to be a single bit of territory, I'd say it would be wrong to not work out a deal with them. But it's clear that the only thing that keeps them from covering the continent is the periodic culling of their numbers, particularly those that emerge from their controlled territory.

As for the idea that the CS is the successor to the US... no. Just... ugh. I live on land that was originally owned by the Illini tribe. If I pick up an flint-tipped arrow and tomahawk, I can't suddenly just claim to be the successor to the tribe. Furthermore, the CS was not making a "right of return" argument in the case of Tolkeen--ie, they weren't saying, "These people are descendants of the original inhabitants of Minnesota, before the Rifts came. We want for them to be able to re-settle in their ancestral lands, and live without allegiance to the government of Tolkeen." Instead it was, "Hey, this land once was occupied solely by bald apes. We're bald apes. We should own this land."

And that logic is why world domination is assumed (deduced, really) to be the ultimate goal of the Proseks. They can make that claim of any territory on Earth that is not already completely under human control. So they'll let NGR and Free Quebec exist as independent states (for now), but anyplace that isn't currently human-dominated is open season--and that's most of the planet.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:34 pm
  

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Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
HWalsh wrote:
So... Many people are part of what I like to call the "Coalition Defense Force" on the boards. Meaning people who defend the Coalition and make justification for whatever they do in lieu of admitting that the CS went off the deep end a long time ago.


With the first sentence the OP admits he is trolling, thread locked.

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