Ideas for making a long term TW PPE Generator?

[Jorick]

Arzno has TW generators that are the equivalent of nuclear generators in that they last a couple decades (or more). This is not provided for in the RMB. Most TW vehicles (for instance, the Tolkien ones) follow rules for generators similar to those in the RMB.

In general, in other books, generators that last a long time require the "enslavement" of some other being (demons, elementals, entities). The glittermount has a tectonic entity and still needs to be recharged after a few months. The Iron Horse has baalrogs or lesser elementals, and is limited to riding on ley-lines (like vehicles that do not have a generator). Tolkien Juggernauts are similarly powered, though their power source may be endless.

UWW ships have powerful generators that explicitly list the amount of PPE thhey can generate and the amount they can store. They do not list how they are made (like the Arzno generators), and normal propulsion is powered by nuclear generators.

Manoan PPE power is a combination of TW and Stone Magic, thus allowing non-magic users to use the equipment. This technology can store both the energy that powers the armor, and use that energy for whatever the armor can do (thus are like a combination of generator and battery), but must be recharged at ley lines in a matter of days.

Arzno generators are clearly outliers (that might not make any sense given the other rules and examples--and therefore one could require that players follow normal generator rules when using them), but I'd like to try to make them work given what we know about TW generators construction and capability already. Let's assume that they only work for small things, like power armor and normalish sized vehicles. They basically do what normal electric and combustion engines do with the lifespan of miniaturized nuclear generators.

I'm thinking "enslavement" is likely, but then why does the energy eventually dry out (what would happen when it does)?

Could the generator be a converted nuclear generator, perhaps a burnt out one? This fulfills the usual TW analog requirement (you have to make a thing out of another thing which it resembles somehow). If this makes any sense, then what spells would you put in it to wake it up for a time again?

Are their spells that allow for something akin to nuclear or fusion reactions? Perpetual(ish) energy of other sorts? Elemental magic? Cloud magic?

Any other ideas?

[Blue_Lion]

First off the Rifts main book did not really have rules. They came out in RUE. (rifts main book refers to the original book.)
The oldest book listing for TW generators is in source book 1.
Other ways from the books are trapping a powerful creature in a device to provide PPE for spells or a PPE generator along a ley line.

I do have a PPE generator I use in my games it uses a core that is made up of a fluid with high PPE (well relatively) micro organisms that will cannibalize the dead ones to make space. It uses the spells sustain and a drain life spell. The micro organism rapidly reproduce with unlimited food by the sustain spell then the drain spell kills half them to create PPE. A bit dark but it works. Such power plants are rare and expensive.

The main you got to watch with PPE generators is they have potential to be highly abused.

[flatline]

Go grab your conversion book 1 and look up the properties of the unicorn horn.

--flatline

[Jorick]

Looking at RMB now. Pg. 92. #s 9-11

These engines are not repeated in the RUE.

EDIT: I like your contraption a lot.


The unicorn horn is awesome. Thank you. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

However, if you'll allow me to be picky, it seems unlikely to me that the people of Arzno would be harvesting unicorns.

[dragonfett]

I would have to double check, but I would have to say that the TW generators/power sources that have been listed in the books prior to the RUE are different from the ones in Arzno because the ones in Arzno used the TW Items Construction Rules made official in the RUE.

[eliakon]

Just a point here....
But isn't the stuff in Arnzo TW PPE Batteries not Generators?
They store PPE from other locations, they don't make PPE.
And the suits use nuclear power as well as the PPE cell.

[Jorick]

Just a point here....
But isn't the stuff in Arnzo TW PPE Batteries not Generators?
They store PPE from other locations, they don't make PPE.
And the suits use nuclear power as well as the PPE cell.

There are batteries that store 200 PPE for the magic systems. There are also PPE generators. They are mentioned in the PA (and the flying PA only comes with TW generators), and described (not much) separately in the vehicles. This is the motor power, not the magic ability power (though in the case of the flying PA, the motor power can be redirected because, I suppose, it is not being used to power the flying ability).

[Jorick]

The way I read it is, instead of internal combustion, or a battery, the PPE engine creates heat (or electricity) which moves whatever needs to be moved (piston, propeller, magnets, etc.).

A nuclear engine is able to create heat, and thus liquid/gas pressure which then moves something, and the heat takes a very long time to dissipate, because the nuclear reaction is essentially self sustaining. Alternately, nuclear heat can be used in a thermoelectric generator (thus not requiring the housing of liquid and shafts and such), as in some satellites.

You pump PPE into an TW engine like fuel. It takes some time to use the fuel, as it casts spells that can power the engine (fire, electricity), but it does, and then you have to pump it again.

As I see it, the long lasting TW generator would either have to: 1), Create PPE itself, like a living organism, 2), be able to find and collect PPE readily (not on a ley line, but perhaps through summoning/using living organisms, or using a material like the unicorn horn), or 3), be incredibly efficient in its use of a one time charge of an unspecified amount of PPE (which seems the most unlikely).

[eliakon]

I had missed that bit. *Sigh* My solution would be to just cross that out and put back in nuclear power so as to firmly put a lid on that particular can of worms. But since it has been opened I guess figuring out how to deal with it.....
Perhaps a chain with
Talisman, Golem, and Call Lightning to make a 'TW nuclear hockey puck' With the explanation of why it is not used more being the golem spell. It doesn't cost permanent HP...but it only works on humanoid metal constructs.....presto instant handwavium explanation of why its found only in power armors.

[Mack]

The most straightforward approach to make a TW PPE Generator would be to make a ley line powered version of Energy Sphere. Downside is, of course, it needs to be on a ley line to be powered.

A more difficult approach might be feasible with the following:
-- Phantom (Air Element magic, level 5). For 30 PPE it summons an elemental fragment with 100 PPE, which via the Freely Donate PPE rule in RUE means it can give 70 PPE. That's an overall net gain of 40 PPE. This is the only spell I know that has a net PPE gain.
-- Control/Enslave Entity (Invocation, level 10). Could be used to compel the elemental fragment to donate his PPE.
-- Energy Sphere (Invocation, level 11). Used to store the donated PPE.

Downsides of that combo is that it requires the help of an Air Warlock who won't be too happy with your intended use of the Phantom spell, and that the other two spells are high level and should be more difficult to incorporate into a TW device. (Also, I recommend that the device automatically release the Phantom back to his realm as soon as the PPE is harvested... otherwise you run the risk of having multiple very unhappy Phantoms in the device.)

[ShadowLogan]

What if the PPE Generator is on a Ley Line, but can "beam" the PPE energy to a specific receiver that does not need to be on the Ley Line (though some reasonable distance from it)? This would require a sender and receiver.

Using Transferral (move PPE), Energy Sphere (store PPE), and Life Drain (acquire PPE) for the Sender, and the Reciever would require the 1st two to work. Might also need Familiar Link to connect the two devices.

Then again, magic items can be made to have spells per day use permanently, so substituting PPE storage for spells might also work.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Arzno has TW generators that are the equivalent of nuclear generators in that they last a couple decades (or more). This is not provided for in the RMB. Most TW vehicles (for instance, the Tolkien ones) follow rules for generators similar to those in the RMB.

In general, in other books, generators that last a long time require the "enslavement" of some other being (demons, elementals, entities). The glittermount has a tectonic entity and still needs to be recharged after a few months. The Iron Horse has baalrogs or lesser elementals, and is limited to riding on ley-lines (like vehicles that do not have a generator). Tolkien Juggernauts are similarly powered, though their power source may be endless.

UWW ships have powerful generators that explicitly list the amount of PPE thhey can generate and the amount they can store. They do not list how they are made (like the Arzno generators), and normal propulsion is powered by nuclear generators.

Manoan PPE power is a combination of TW and Stone Magic, thus allowing non-magic users to use the equipment. This technology can store both the energy that powers the armor, and use that energy for whatever the armor can do (thus are like a combination of generator and battery), but must be recharged at ley lines in a matter of days.

Arzno generators are clearly outliers (that might not make any sense given the other rules and examples--and therefore one could require that players follow normal generator rules when using them), but I'd like to try to make them work given what we know about TW generators construction and capability already. Let's assume that they only work for small things, like power armor and normalish sized vehicles. They basically do what normal electric and combustion engines do with the lifespan of miniaturized nuclear generators.

I'm thinking "enslavement" is likely, but then why does the energy eventually dry out (what would happen when it does)?

Could the generator be a converted nuclear generator, perhaps a burnt out one? This fulfills the usual TW analog requirement (you have to make a thing out of another thing which it resembles somehow). If this makes any sense, then what spells would you put in it to wake it up for a time again?

Are their spells that allow for something akin to nuclear or fusion reactions? Perpetual(ish) energy of other sorts? Elemental magic? Cloud magic?

Any other ideas?

In one of the Phase World Books, it's revealed that the UUW generators simply trap an elemental or demon with hundreds of PPE insid.

[Jorick]

In one of the Phase World Books, it's revealed that the UUW generators simply trap an elemental or demon with hundreds of PPE insid.

Do have an idea where it is? I'd love to find it.

[Bill]

If I were to write one up, I'd frame it in terms of a PPE collector rather than generator and describe it as a crystal array applying esoteric geometries that captures a relatively small amount of energy until brought into proximity with a more powerful source. Similar to photo-voltaic arrays or wifi harvesting rigs. It would probably be fragile, not very portable, and only a large one at a nexus would be really effective; kind of like a pyramid. A highly advanced one, well beyond the reach of earthly technowizards in the main timeline, might be miniaturized and efficient enough to power a vehicle.

[Shark_Force]

The way I read it is, instead of internal combustion, or a battery, the PPE engine creates heat (or electricity) which moves whatever needs to be moved (piston, propeller, magnets, etc.).

A nuclear engine is able to create heat, and thus liquid/gas pressure which then moves something, and the heat takes a very long time to dissipate, because the nuclear reaction is essentially self sustaining. Alternately, nuclear heat can be used in a thermoelectric generator (thus not requiring the housing of liquid and shafts and such), as in some satellites.

You pump PPE into an TW engine like fuel. It takes some time to use the fuel, as it casts spells that can power the engine (fire, electricity), but it does, and then you have to pump it again.

As I see it, the long lasting TW generator would either have to: 1), Create PPE itself, like a living organism, 2), be able to find and collect PPE readily (not on a ley line, but perhaps through summoning/using living organisms, or using a material like the unicorn horn), or 3), be incredibly efficient in its use of a one time charge of an unspecified amount of PPE (which seems the most unlikely).

if this is the case, there are actually a few permanent fire spells iirc that would work just fine for this sort of thing.

if it's a machine that actually generates PPE though, i'm not sure how it could pull that off.

but PPE batteries is pretty easy as well, there are a few spells you could use for that.

[flatline]

The way I read it is, instead of internal combustion, or a battery, the PPE engine creates heat (or electricity) which moves whatever needs to be moved (piston, propeller, magnets, etc.).

A nuclear engine is able to create heat, and thus liquid/gas pressure which then moves something, and the heat takes a very long time to dissipate, because the nuclear reaction is essentially self sustaining. Alternately, nuclear heat can be used in a thermoelectric generator (thus not requiring the housing of liquid and shafts and such), as in some satellites.

You pump PPE into an TW engine like fuel. It takes some time to use the fuel, as it casts spells that can power the engine (fire, electricity), but it does, and then you have to pump it again.

As I see it, the long lasting TW generator would either have to: 1), Create PPE itself, like a living organism, 2), be able to find and collect PPE readily (not on a ley line, but perhaps through summoning/using living organisms, or using a material like the unicorn horn), or 3), be incredibly efficient in its use of a one time charge of an unspecified amount of PPE (which seems the most unlikely).

if this is the case, there are actually a few permanent fire spells iirc that would work just fine for this sort of thing.

Building a closed-cycle boiler above several instances of Eternal Flame is the first thing that comes to mind. Are there other fire spells with a duration long enough to be useful?

--flatline

[Tor]

Phantom (Air Element magic, level 5). For 30 PPE it summons an elemental fragment with 100 PPE, which via the Freely Donate PPE rule in RUE means it can give 70 PPE. That's an overall net gain of 40 PPE. This is the only spell I know that has a net PPE gain.

RUEp224 level 13 ritual Protection Circle: Superior. Only costs 20 to activate, gives 10/mage, so fit 3 mages inside, you are at a positive. You do have to pay a large initial investment but you'd make that up in 30 activations with 3 people, fewer if you fit more inside, and there's no radius limits. 15 activations with 4 mages, 10 activations with 5, 6 with 7, 5 with 8, 3 with 12, 2 with 17, 1 with 32.

Control/Enslave Entity (Invocation, level 10). Could be used to compel the elemental fragment to donate his PPE.

Finding them first could be an issue though, would need a separate spell for it.

Shifters/Summoners could also do pretty well with that. Summoning circles are cheaper to activate than a shifter's mini-rift if I recall.

it requires the help of an Air Warlock who won't be too happy with your intended use of the Phantom spell

I think they'd be okay with it if properly compensated. It's not like you're killing them, and even then, a Phantom got changed from a lesser air elemental to a mere essence fragment of an intelligence so it's shouldn't be a big deal if they did die.

I recommend that the device automatically release the Phantom back to his realm as soon as the PPE is harvested... otherwise you run the risk of having multiple very unhappy Phantoms in the device.)

I don't think they have the same emotions or independence as a lesser elemental would, seem pretty obedient.

Plus they get sent back automatically after the duration expires anyway.

[ShadowLogan]

Arzno has TW generators that are the equivalent of nuclear generators in that they last a couple decades (or more). This is not provided for in the RMB. Most TW vehicles (for instance, the Tolkien ones) follow rules for generators similar to those in the RMB.

In general, in other books, generators that last a long time require the "enslavement" of some other being (demons, elementals, entities). The glittermount has a tectonic entity and still needs to be recharged after a few months. The Iron Horse has baalrogs or lesser elementals, and is limited to riding on ley-lines (like vehicles that do not have a generator). Tolkien Juggernauts are similarly powered, though their power source may be endless.

UWW ships have powerful generators that explicitly list the amount of PPE thhey can generate and the amount they can store. They do not list how they are made (like the Arzno generators), and normal propulsion is powered by nuclear generators.

Manoan PPE power is a combination of TW and Stone Magic, thus allowing non-magic users to use the equipment. This technology can store both the energy that powers the armor, and use that energy for whatever the armor can do (thus are like a combination of generator and battery), but must be recharged at ley lines in a matter of days.

Arzno generators are clearly outliers (that might not make any sense given the other rules and examples--and therefore one could require that players follow normal generator rules when using them), but I'd like to try to make them work given what we know about TW generators construction and capability already. Let's assume that they only work for small things, like power armor and normalish sized vehicles. They basically do what normal electric and combustion engines do with the lifespan of miniaturized nuclear generators.

I'm thinking "enslavement" is likely, but then why does the energy eventually dry out (what would happen when it does)?

Could the generator be a converted nuclear generator, perhaps a burnt out one? This fulfills the usual TW analog requirement (you have to make a thing out of another thing which it resembles somehow). If this makes any sense, then what spells would you put in it to wake it up for a time again?

Are their spells that allow for something akin to nuclear or fusion reactions? Perpetual(ish) energy of other sorts? Elemental magic? Cloud magic?

Any other ideas?

In one of the Phase World Books, it's revealed that the UUW generators simply trap an elemental or demon with hundreds of PPE insid.

Rifts Book of Magic has Bio-Wizardry device (IIRC is connected to TWdry in text as a higher/related form of) that is a "PPE Battery" that use imprisoned Faries, but also regenerates the PPE making it essentially a PPE generator.

[Mlp7029]

Arzno has TW generators that are the equivalent of nuclear generators in that they last a couple decades (or more). This is not provided for in the RMB. Most TW vehicles (for instance, the Tolkien ones) follow rules for generators similar to those in the RMB.

In general, in other books, generators that last a long time require the "enslavement" of some other being (demons, elementals, entities). The glittermount has a tectonic entity and still needs to be recharged after a few months. The Iron Horse has baalrogs or lesser elementals, and is limited to riding on ley-lines (like vehicles that do not have a generator). Tolkien Juggernauts are similarly powered, though their power source may be endless.

UWW ships have powerful generators that explicitly list the amount of PPE thhey can generate and the amount they can store. They do not list how they are made (like the Arzno generators), and normal propulsion is powered by nuclear generators.

Manoan PPE power is a combination of TW and Stone Magic, thus allowing non-magic users to use the equipment. This technology can store both the energy that powers the armor, and use that energy for whatever the armor can do (thus are like a combination of generator and battery), but must be recharged at ley lines in a matter of days.

Arzno generators are clearly outliers (that might not make any sense given the other rules and examples--and therefore one could require that players follow normal generator rules when using them), but I'd like to try to make them work given what we know about TW generators construction and capability already. Let's assume that they only work for small things, like power armor and normalish sized vehicles. They basically do what normal electric and combustion engines do with the lifespan of miniaturized nuclear generators.

I'm thinking "enslavement" is likely, but then why does the energy eventually dry out (what would happen when it does)?

Could the generator be a converted nuclear generator, perhaps a burnt out one? This fulfills the usual TW analog requirement (you have to make a thing out of another thing which it resembles somehow). If this makes any sense, then what spells would you put in it to wake it up for a time again?

Are their spells that allow for something akin to nuclear or fusion reactions? Perpetual(ish) energy of other sorts? Elemental magic? Cloud magic?

Any other ideas?

Are you looking for a TW generator that makes electricity or one that creates PPE? Honestly there is no real need for a PPE generator on Rifts Earth. PPE is very abundant and very portable via several spell's notably Energy Sphere or my favorite Talisman. Inventing a TW Talisman machine that mass produces PPE talismans is quite within the rules from RUE. The original book talked about TW as magic technology that used the Mage as the power source. If you stay with that idea and combine it with mass produced PPE talismans you now have a viable magic industry. With the release of the TW rules in RUE TW can be designed to be useable by anyone see RUE pg 131 "Moreover, if the device itself is able to store its own P.P.E., the de­vice can be made to function even for a non-psychic/non-mage, if theTechno-Wizard wants it to, at no additional cost." Rifts is all about imagining what could be for me. It's an incredible setting so I encourage you to open your imagination to the what Magic does better than high tech and then how TW could bring that to everyone who wants it of course.

[Blue_Lion]

Arzno has TW generators that are the equivalent of nuclear generators in that they last a couple decades (or more). This is not provided for in the RMB. Most TW vehicles (for instance, the Tolkien ones) follow rules for generators similar to those in the RMB.

In general, in other books, generators that last a long time require the "enslavement" of some other being (demons, elementals, entities). The glittermount has a tectonic entity and still needs to be recharged after a few months. The Iron Horse has baalrogs or lesser elementals, and is limited to riding on ley-lines (like vehicles that do not have a generator). Tolkien Juggernauts are similarly powered, though their power source may be endless.

UWW ships have powerful generators that explicitly list the amount of PPE thhey can generate and the amount they can store. They do not list how they are made (like the Arzno generators), and normal propulsion is powered by nuclear generators.

Manoan PPE power is a combination of TW and Stone Magic, thus allowing non-magic users to use the equipment. This technology can store both the energy that powers the armor, and use that energy for whatever the armor can do (thus are like a combination of generator and battery), but must be recharged at ley lines in a matter of days.

Arzno generators are clearly outliers (that might not make any sense given the other rules and examples--and therefore one could require that players follow normal generator rules when using them), but I'd like to try to make them work given what we know about TW generators construction and capability already. Let's assume that they only work for small things, like power armor and normalish sized vehicles. They basically do what normal electric and combustion engines do with the lifespan of miniaturized nuclear generators.

I'm thinking "enslavement" is likely, but then why does the energy eventually dry out (what would happen when it does)?

Could the generator be a converted nuclear generator, perhaps a burnt out one? This fulfills the usual TW analog requirement (you have to make a thing out of another thing which it resembles somehow). If this makes any sense, then what spells would you put in it to wake it up for a time again?

Are their spells that allow for something akin to nuclear or fusion reactions? Perpetual(ish) energy of other sorts? Elemental magic? Cloud magic?

Any other ideas?

Are you looking for a TW generator that makes electricity or one that creates PPE? Honestly there is no real need for a PPE generator on Rifts Earth. PPE is very abundant and very portable via several spell's notably Energy Sphere or my favorite Talisman. Inventing a TW Talisman machine that mass produces PPE talismans is quite within the rules from RUE. The original book talked about TW as magic technology that used the Mage as the power source. If you stay with that idea and combine it with mass produced PPE talismans you now have a viable magic industry. With the release of the TW rules in RUE TW can be designed to be useable by anyone see RUE pg 131 "Moreover, if the device itself is able to store its own P.P.E., the de­vice can be made to function even for a non-psychic/non-mage, if theTechno-Wizard wants it to, at no additional cost." Rifts is all about imagining what could be for me. It's an incredible setting so I encourage you to open your imagination to the what Magic does better than high tech and then how TW could bring that to everyone who wants it of course.

There is still use for a tw ppe generator.
Recharging PPE batteries or help to augment PPE for TW creation. Depending on how it works can even be used to decrease the down time of mages needed to recover PPE when away from ley lines.

Some examples of things that need a PPE source-
TW unmanned robots (would require it to recharge there PPE batteries.)
TW PPE powered vehicles with low PPE users long trips.
TW forward military outpost.
TW systems in town away from ley lines.
Mages driving PPE powered vehicles in a high rate of combat environment.

(Personally a disagree with the every man approach to TW and prefer the old main book mage and psi only.)

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are three type a possibilities for generators that I can think of:
•It makes PPE for the town ship mage to use. (PPE Generator / Mystic Power Generators)
•It pulls PPE out of the LL/LLN to be used by town ship mage to use. (LeyLine Syphon)
• it converts PPE into electrical energy for a town or ship to use. (Mystical Generators)

Mostly these are normally paired with Mystic Power Capacitors (of some sort of another) to store what PPE is gathered or to store PPE to be used.


Mystic Power Generators are typically have a PPE source(s) entrapped within it's matrix and systems to take the PPE.

LeyLine Syphons typically take the form of a magic circle of some sort.

Mystical Generators seam to take as many forms as there are enchanters that make them. Depending on the base enchantments they maybe be as small as a power converter coupling or as big as hydro-electric power stations.

Mystic Power Capacitors can be almost anything but for ship-board use they tend to be a cabinet with racks of gems mounted in boards connecting them together.

[Blue_Lion]

There are three type a possibilities for generators that I can think of:
•It makes PPE for the town ship mage to use. (PPE Generator / Mystic Power Generators)
•It pulls PPE out of the LL/LLN to be used by town ship mage to use. (LeyLine Syphon)
• it converts PPE into electrical energy for a town or ship to use. (Mystical Generators)

Mostly these are normally paired with Mystic Power Capacitors (of some sort of another) to store what PPE is gathered or to store PPE to be used.


Mystic Power Generators are typically have a PPE source(s) entrapped within it's matrix and systems to take the PPE.

LeyLine Syphons typically take the form of a magic circle of some sort.

Mystical Generators seam to take as many forms as there are enchanters that make them. Depending on the base enchantments they maybe be as small as a power converter coupling or as big as hydro-electric power stations.

Mystic Power Capacitors can be almost anything but for ship-board use they tend to be a cabinet with racks of gems mounted in boards connecting them together.

The most common ley line siphons on rifts are pyramids not circles.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yep, those are perm. structures made by Stone Masters that have a LLS built into them. Not much is known specific about the Pyramids construction... so... circle square...pyramid...."of some sort".

There Is the aspect in TW cost rules (RUE) where a TW can put in "Something" into their Magic Items that acts as a LLS to power their LL vehicles.

And in the RMB the power generator that runs off of the power in a LL.

[Blue_Lion]

Yep, those are perm. structures made by Stone Masters that have a LLS built into them. Not much is known specific about the Pyramids construction... so... circle square...pyramid...."of some sort".

There Is the aspect in TW cost rules (RUE) where a TW can put in "Something" into their Magic Items that acts as a LLS to power their LL vehicles.

And in the RMB the power generator that runs off of the power in a LL.

The generator I remember from the main book ran off call lighting spell.