who expanded zombie attack options beyond hands and teeth?

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Axelmania
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who expanded zombie attack options beyond hands and teeth?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Pg 182 mentions "zombies can only fight using hands and teeth" but the stats for zombies often include other things like kicks and head-butts, and mentioning they can even pick up and use weapons (even guns, for Thinkers).

I figure since 3 authors (Kevin and the 2 Joshes) wrote the book, there was just a disconnect between whoever wrote the Close Combat Firearm Rules and who statted the zombies. That or, if it was the same person, they had forgotten this 2-option limit when introducing 5 attack options for zombies.

This conflict seems to be irreconcilable, so I figure we would modify 182 to mean "zombies USUALLY fight using hands and teeth" implying that head-butting and kicking are usually rare...

The "Attacks per Melee" numbers are followed by explanations which appear to support this interpretation:
    40 Slouchers "usually by biting and hitting with fists"
    42 Crawlers "usually by biting, head butting and hitting with fists"
    44 Fast Attack Zs "usually by pushing, tripping, knockdown, kicking and hitting with fists"
    46 Flesh-Eating Zs "usually by biting and hitting with fists"
    49 Thinkers "and may use simple weapons"
    53 Mock Zs "and may use weapons, guns and tools"
    54 Pattern Zs "usually by biting and hitting with fists"

As a GM running it, for the average zombie, I figure a zombie should only kick if it can't punch or use a weapon (no arms, or arm is entangled) or bite (jaw removed, or if it's possible to entangle a jaw or a head...) and it should only headbutt if it can't do all of the above (kicks do more damage, so a head butt only makes sense if their leg is removed or entangled).

I figure this describes how Slouchers/EatingZs/PatternZs all work (all have the same description).

Crawlers appear to have more variety in their head-based attacks, probably because they hit with fists less frequently due to relying on them for locomotion.

Fast Attackers strangely don't usually bite. Perhaps because screaming is more important to them than moaning is for other zombies? If a zombie manages to bite, since their mouth is busy, wouldn't that prevent them from moaning or screaming (or at least impede it, reducing the range of the sound) since their mouth is full?

Also, if a human defends with Entangle vs a bite, couldn't that immobilize the jaw and impede the range of moans/screams in a similar way? This is probably worth its own thread...



I'm actually not sure why a zombie would do strikes (punches, kicks, headbutts) at all, because page 57 says
    A zombie always tries to grab and hold its potential victim, then
    a) attack by biting its held victim or hitting or strangling with its other hand,
    and
    b) waiting for other zombies to join the attack punching, kicking and biting the victim while the first hangs on.

That said... this is "Excerpted from the Reaper's Survival Guide" so it's actually just an in-universe book and not necessarily a RULE... meaning Brad could be wrong about zombies kicking.

I'm not sure why he'd lie about that though... he could just be referring to zombies kicking as a last resort because their jaws/hands were chopped off.

Even if that happened though... it's weird that zombies don't have an "elbow" attack, I would think that still closer to zombie concept than switching to kicks... I would think that'd only happen if the entire arm was cut off.

Head butts are something I want to think a zombie would do as a last resort, since you're basically thrusting the head at your opponent... I think you should get some kind of strike or damage bonus if you simultaneously attack a zombie (melee attacks, not guns) with a called shot to the head in response to them head-butting you... would make a good house rule, no?

For the same reason, while I envision zombies as being prone to using Simultaneous Attack with a Bite (why defend? their AR will probably be higher than their defense roll most of the time and they're hard to kill, better to prevent the human from defending!) but I could see attacks against the neck/head as being an exception, and being the sort of thing which would cause a zombie to attempt an Entangle (v melee) or Dodge (v guns, particularly if a Fast Attack or Thinker, who get a bonus to dodge, implying it's something either will do) instead.

I figure this means, consulting page 186, entangles?

It's a bit confusing since I remember from Rifts it was implied you had to gain the ability to do Entangle from HTH combat advancement, but I guess anyone and anything can do them now? Crawlers in the very least I would think since the end of their entry on pg 43 gives them a +2 entangle bonus. This would be their go-to defense. The only way I could figure they would use a dodge is against gunfire, and I can't figure a reason to EVER use parry (no auto-parry since no HTH, no way to get a parry bonus to get it higher than entangle's +2)

This requires being attacked though... so a zombie couldn't RAW entangle someone who didn't attack them. As a house rule I'd probably (like Disarm, which can be attack or defense) someone to try and entangle a limb as an attack.

I guess it could be referring to Disarms (pg 185 does say it is a strike, hold or grappling maneuver) but if you were already unarmed and not holding anything in your hands, I'm not really sure what a zombie would gain from doing this.

I did just realize though... if you were using Entangle or Hold on zombie A, zombie B could use Disarm to make you lose your grip on zombie B. I don't know if they'd be smart enough to rescue each other like that though... maybe a Thinker? If they can think to sew on the limbs of disarmed zombies, disarming a human who is entangling/holding a zombie limb would seem a much easier to understand concept.

Even though it says "and hold" I have trouble thinking this means zombies can do holds, since it isn't listed under their combat stats and this doesn't appear to be something people can do by default, since Pg 177 has "can perform Holds" as the level 7 progression from Hand to Hand Martial Arts (I don't see it for Basic/Expert, is 14th for Assassin and Commando) and it's hard to think of zombies having abilities that require so much training an experience for humans to acquire.
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