so what kinda attacks can the untrained do to zombies?

You are on your own. The Army is MIA and our government is gone! There are no communications of any kind. Cities and towns have gone dark, and zombies fill the streets. The dead have risen and it would seem to be the end of the world. Help me, Mommy!

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Axelmania
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so what kinda attacks can the untrained do to zombies?

Unread post by Axelmania »

I'm traditionally a min-maxer and all characters I've played have had combat skills so this isn't something I've thought of much until recently, but now have more of an interest of.

    Hound Masters (74) Scroungers (79) Shepherds (81) Soldiers (83) are at least Basic
    Half-Living (71) and Reapers (78) at least Expert

Survivors though, for the most part, start without any combat training. They can get Basic as a secondary skill (p 191) or Expert for 2 electives (p205) Martial Arts for 3 electives (p190) I imagine a lot of survivors don't have them, although we can probably expect that more survivors than normal have at least basic given the massive advantage it would give to have auto-parry in fending off any zombies who got close to you.

Although 205 gives the "No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" basics of 1/3/9 attack and +1 to dodge, 176 expands on this and clarifies you don't get the +1 to dodge until 3rd level and introduces the extra "non-combat" actions, which get nerfed at level 9 when suddenly attacking makes you lose 2.

When you read on 176-177 on what the various combat skills "enable" it becomes increasingly confusing what someone with "No Hand to Hand" is capable of actually doing.

I think at bare minimum we can assume they are capable of Dodging, or else why give them a Dodge bonus. Although I guess that isn't reason to assume a dodge is possible at 1st or 2nd.

A key phrase to understanding this is "basic/common attacks". This phrase recurs in all the hand to hand skills following a "note" and highlights the following techniques:

    Punch
    Elbow
    Kick
    Knee
    Disarm
    Dodge
    Entangle
    Body Block/Tackle
    Body Flip/Throw
    Roll with Impact
    Power Punch
    Power Kick*
    Pull Punch

The phrase "enables the character to use" suggests that a character wasn't previously able to do any of these things prior to getting the skill.

The problem with that interpretation is of course Dodge being present in the list, which the +1 to dodge bonus from "No Hand to Hand" suggests that people are able to do by default.

Another confusing thing is while Expert/Martial/Arts/Assassin/Commando all describe Power Kick as a BCA (basic/common attack) Basic says "(but not a Power Kick)" so Power Kick's status as a BCA is a pretty confusing one. I think it would have made more sense to classify it as one of the "special moves or martial arts attacks" in that case.

The thing about some of these BCAs is despite being "basic/common" they are not known to some hand to hand forms right away, which leads me to think they most certainly are not available EVER to someoen with "No Hand to Hand". For example:

    pg 174 says "A normal human punch inflicts 1D4 damage; a normal kick 1D8... but Basic doesn't provide Kick attack doing 1D8 damage until 3rd level, implying that since HTH Basic can't do this at 1st/2nd, someone with no HTH should NEVER be able to a 1D8 kick attack, unless of course they were an Acrobat (p205). Expert gets this at 1st level, Martial Arts and Assassin aren't listed as getting it but they get the superior Karate Kick at 3rd/4th level.

    Judo-style body flip/throw doing 1d6 isn't gained by Basic/Expert until 8th, and Martial Arts / Commando at 1st, so someone without combat training shouldn't be able to do it. Assassin lists this under its BCAs but I don't actually see it listed anywhere 1-15 so I'm not really sure how it works for them.

    Body block/tackle is gained by Commando at 1st. Although the others list it as a BCA, I don't see at which level they gain it. In cases like this (or the mysterious assassin body flip) when something is listed in BCA but no on the level, I'm prone to assuming they can do it at first level, though I guess a GM could rule that it provides it at 16th if they want to be mean.

Given 173's "any time an attacker rolls a successful strike to hit, the defender can choose to parry, dodge or entangle" could lead some to believe that P/D/E are things any defenders can do, even those without combat training.

That's just looking in Dead Reign though. Looking back at prior incarnations of the combat skills in previous Palladium games like Rifts (p 37) the Entangle maneuver was gained by Hand to Hand: Martial Arts at 5th level and Assassin at 6th level. I don't think it was listed for Basic/Expert. In spite of this it still said "Defender May Parry, Dodge or Entangle" on Rifts pg 35, which combats the assumption that this means anybody can do Entangle.

In Dead Reign we see bonuses to Entangle from the HTH skills:
    at 5th level for Martial Arts
    at 6th level for Assassin

It feels wrong to take a "can't do it until you get a bonus" approach here though, since that would ban Basic/Expert/Commando from ever doing Entangle (unless you add in a mysterious level 16 bonus) so presumably everyone can do it at 1st now, despite the level 5/6 Martial/Assassin precedent from Rifts. A mean GM could say it's from level 16 though, since being listed as a BCA doesn't mean you get something at 1st level (level 3 kick level 8 body flip for Basic) so the GM could decide what level it becomes available if it isn't listed.

It's a pretty valuable ability to have since it prevents movement of whoever you defend against. Pg186 doesn't go into much detail about what it does, nor 173, but one gets the sense it prevents you from using the limb that is entangled. N&S/Rifts/Nightbane/RUE were just as undescriptive, but two games I know of have a difference:

Heroes Unlimited 2nd pg 68 (and subsequently Palladium Fantasy 2nd pg 45) nerf it horribly by saying the person using it can't attack without releasing it, a limitation I don't recall seeing in Dead Reign or Rifts. So much for grabbing a guy's knife hand while punching him in the face!

This change appears to have been ditched for later games (Dead Reign, Skraypers, Rifts Ultimate Edition, Robotech Shadow Chronicles) thankfully, presumably allowing you to attack someone you're entangling like in pre HU2/PF2 games.

That said, I think we can assume most Zombies have no combat training (possibly exception with the Mock Zombie) yet the Crawler (pg 43) has a bonus to entangle under their Bonuses, and if they can do it I don't see why other zombies (or any humans) couldn't also.

Pg 57 bottom left column "A VITAL ZOMBIE COMBAT NOTE: A zombie always tries to grab and hold" seems like zombies are also able to do the Hold maneuver (p186) but "can perform Holds" isn't gained until level 14 by Commando/Asssassin or 7th level Martial Arts. Basic/Expert never get it, so characters with "No Hand to Hand Combat Skill" obviously couldn't... yet since zombies apparently can do this (unless Brad Ashley is a liar, possible) a zombie's ability to Entangle/Hold is probably just part of iherent racial combat abilities which normal humans do not have.

This is supported by Slouchers being more accurate hitters than normal humans (+2) Fast Attack being able to do Leap Kick (Power Kick) and Flesh-Eaters being better disarmers and Thinkers being better punch-pullers and rollers

Speaking of Disarm / Pull Punch / Roll with Impact ... this trio are all VERY valuable skills, and ones I'm wondering about in regard to the untrained. All skills list it as a BCA and get bonuses at various points.
    Pull Punch and Roll With Impact get bonuses at 1st level from Basic/Expert/Martial, 2nd from Commando 3rd from Assassin, so one would assume the maneuver is unlocked as soon as one gets a bonus for it, if not earlier. I would be fine with saying lvl 1 commandos and 1-2 level assassins can't do these though, as it would be entertaining.

    Disarm gets a bonus at 5th from Basic, 3rd from Expert or Commando, 10th from Martial Arts, NEVER from Assassin.

I guess one could take the approach that Assassin doesn't get Disarm until 16th and the untrained never get it, but it might be that anybody could do this at 1st level?

"Characters with no hand to hand combat training lose their next melee attack every time they parry" has consistently appeared though, supporting that this is a maneuver that can be done by anybody.

Roll With Impact is just very useful (if zombies chase you up a roof or ladder, you might need to do a controlled fall to escape them to the ground) and since many zombies attack with blunt attacks (punches, kicks, headbutts, sticks) being able to halve the damage if you are hit (even though that means you're spending 2 actions every time you get attacked, since a parry/dodge/entangle would be your 1st that you failed) would be important for survival, when healing can take days and there's no easy magic/psi around to accelerate it.

Personally though... I don't think most people would be able to do a roll with impact. Even though I'd had a little bit (yellow belt) of martial arts dojo training, I don't really picture myself capable of being able to roll with a blow or impact, I don't think I'd be 1st level in Basic/MA, maybe just a +1 parry/dodge from General Athletics.

If we look in Ninjas and Superspies, Roll With Punch/Fall/Impact is under Escape Moves on the forms. Page 132 describes it "Hand to Hand combat fighters can reduce.." so presumably you must be a "combat fighter" to use it, which could lead to the conclusion that you need a Hand to Hand combat skill to impart it.

If a COMBAT SKILL was something EVERYONE could perform, we would expect to see it listed under every single form. The most minimalist form I know of is Pao Chih (Mystic China p 192) which only teaches Roll with punch/fall/impact and Dodge. They can't even punch or parry... although N&S 132 does say "All martial artists ... get an automatic parry" but presumably they would have to fight using a non-form to do that.
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