Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

You are on your own. The Army is MIA and our government is gone! There are no communications of any kind. Cities and towns have gone dark, and zombies fill the streets. The dead have risen and it would seem to be the end of the world. Help me, Mommy!

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Axelmania
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Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Axelmania »

Kicks do more damage but I would think kicking someone in the head is harder than punching someone in the head, most people just aren't that flexible.

Shouldn't kicking that high get some kinda strike penalty?

Not that it would matter that much since you need a natural roll to hit the head anyway, but in cases where a zombie is rolling a parry or a dodge or an entangle, your bonuses could potentially matter to determine how hard it is to defend against.

Particularly in cases where you suffer strike penalties, like fighting in the dark.

Obviously if a zombie fell down and you are just trying to stomp its head, flexibility wouldn't be an issue. You should probably get some kinda damage bonus too, since you can throw your mass into a downward kick better than an upward one (gravity speeds your limb up toward your target instead of slowing you down)
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Panomas II
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Re: Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Panomas II »

Hitting Zombies in the head, by any means, with Dead Reign is hard enough...
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Axelmania
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Re: Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Axelmania »

Right but it should.be easier to punch. Otherwise people would always kick for better damage unless they had brass knuckles.
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Panomas II
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Re: Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Panomas II »

It's not reflected in the rules. Real world, I've heard it both ways. Also not reflected in the rules is that you don't have to get a close when kicking someone for just a standard kick or roundhouse.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I've ran DR a bit and my template for running it is completely different then what is in the rules. It's the charm of running Palladium's System(s), which are inconsistent as far as rules go. Make the mechanic (you do your own version) of +1 to strike with a punch/+1 to Dmg with a kick. Sounds fine to me.

I can't put a number of the various tweaks I've used over the years. Too many to count.
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Re: Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Tearstone »

Well, I can't speak for others, but I've been into martial arts since I was seven years of age. Trained in a lot, but kickboxing, Tae Kwon Do, and katsujin-ryu shotokan (uses the kicks from both arts listed) I spent a significant amount of time on. Kicking someone in the head is not super difficult, especially one with little to no intelligence. If you train for high kicks, you also train to maintain your balance for that short half second you're vulnerable.

In my shotokan classes though, we only kicked high do develop kicking power for low kicks. Against most things you really only have to kick knee-high.

In reference to this, if you're up against a zombie, kick its legs out from under it, or destroy the knee joint. Then it's on the ground, and you're free to stomp it's head in.

I personally wouldn't want to get close enough to a zombie to punch it. Grappling is where they do best. The less chance they have to grapple me, the better. This is why something with a little reach, like a machete, large kukri, a sword, an axe, a baseball bat really helps and are force multipliers.

Also...
Michael Weston - Burn Notice wrote:In a fight, you have to be careful not to break the little bones in your hand on someone’s face. Never happens in movies, but in real life a busted hand will get you killed. That’s why I like bathrooms. Lots of hard surfaces.

You do -not- want to punch a zombie in the head. Not without brass knuckles, or a properly wrapped hand, and even then you still risk breaking your hand with the wrap. Crashing the heel into the target, or striking with the shin bone is going to be better. It's harder, conveys more force, and isn't as likely to break. (If you have to strike unarmed.) Also steel-toed boots do wonders for a head kick.

Seriously though, you don't want to get into a prolonged fight with Zack, not up close and personal. Standing toe to toe, trying to tough-guy it out with one deserves whatever bad crap that happens to you.
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Re: Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Jefffar »

I've always felt that kick attacks should have a penalty to offset their higher damage. Perhaps a slight strike penalty -1 or -2) or an initiative penalty (for those following the standard round robin system).

Either would make it harder to kick successfully plus potentially get you in trouble against an opponent who is more interested in grabbing your leg than avoiding it.
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Re: Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Tearstone »

I think that might be the case against someone who doesn't have Kickboxing or Martial Arts, or if you're using N&SS arts, like Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Taido, Hwarangdo, and maybe Ishin-ryu, as they all focus on snappy, fast kicks to the head, with effort not to get caught. Taekwondo usually responds with a jumping turning kick to the head if their original kicking leg is caught. Like you see in the movies, but it scores a KO in full contact fighting fairly often. Muay Thai has it's own response

I will however say a couple things. The shortest distance between two points is always a straight line. Even the venerated Bruce Lee was keen on this. In The Tao of Jeet Kune Do Lee speaks of instead of fighting in the traditional boxing stance, to instead shift your right side forward (for right handers). The reasoning is simple - Put your best weapons closest to your targets. Make them have to go a much shorter distance. He also advised never kicking above the waist, and even more pointing out that you only need ot kick as high as the knee. Your foot has to travel the shortest distance that way. You may only have to kick to a distance of afoot and a half, instead of five plus feet to kick someone's head in the traditional fighting stances.

In the counter argument though is that the legs are five times heavier than the arms, and they are seven times stronger. That's a lot of weight and force to begin with, and if you get it moving pretty fast, its really hard to stop, and can impart a LOT of kinetic energy, equivalent to a 35+ mph car crash, depending on where you hit.

I would possibly knock off a point or two of imitative, as well as knock off a couple points of PP bonus behind it for kicks, but I wouldn't heavily penalize, certainly for a trained character. Untrained willb e a much different story.
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Re: Punching vs Kicking zombies in the head

Unread post by Axelmania »

Leg is longer than arm so going parallel to ground from origin, a kick at a hip-level target has more range than a punch at a shoulder-level target.

Range reduces as you change the angle up or down. I don't think a kick at a shoulder-level target necessarily has more range than a punch at a shoulder-level target.

Kicking higher than shoulder (neck or skull) exceeds comfortable hamstring flexibility and creates an unstable high centre of mass compared to punching.

Even in games like GURPS which have a hit penalty for kicks (-2) it is still very generous and still requires house rules to reflect how high kicks are slower, less accurate, more likely to pull muscles or cause falls compared to punches.

True that feet are tougher than hands. Shoes also tend to help with avoiding injury and have more paddi g than most gloves. Rules should reflect that too. Bare punches against skulls should be able to cause injury.

Even GURPS which has rules for that are very coddling, I think you only take 1 for every 5 you roll, and most humans can't even hit that hard.

Hardness of skull and jaw is why I would aim for softer parts like nose or throat on punches. Feet are tougher so it is less of a worry.
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