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Basic Hand to hand combat i think includes people with some military/police/security training, some former athletes (like you took wrestling in high school), people taking self defense courses at the YMCA etc... But really those with the skill would not be super common. In game terms there is a huge difference between those with and those without.

In my game, if you are running around surviving outside of safe havens then you have some hand to hand unless you are a refugee fleeing the area. The reasoning is simple, if you don't have the skill your chance of surviveability goes way down. Those who were lucky and found a safe haven early where someone else could do their fighting for them may have a higher index of non-combatants. If your campaign begins months after Z day then those that started with no hand to hand skill would learn from someone else and buy them as an elective or secondary skill.

Better hand to hand skills will however be in short supply. Before Z day Commando style was probably widespread in elite military/police units but those guys where also on the front lines of fighting and that would have reduced their numbers. Assassins may have been hit hard too as crime bosses called in their talent to act as body guards. Experts and martial arts guys would take a hit because many of them are also military even ones that do martial arts as a hobby rather than as part of the military.

I don't have any firm numbers but I know martial arts are alot more common than people think... not to the tune of having HTH Martial arts, but much like you said Enough classes at the YMCA to have HTH Basic.

That being said I'd still say HTH Basic is maybe ... 1 in 10. maybe 1 in 15.

HTH Martial Arts..... 1 in 35....1 in 50

HTH Assassin is gonna be like 1 in 10,000 or even 1 in 100,000. Just not common.

In countries where all fit men (and sometimes women) are required to perform military service, HtH Basic and maybe even Expert would be extremely common.

--flatline

Anyone who grew up in a tough neighborhood would have the equivalent of HTH basic. When you get into fights every other day, you have no choice but to learn at least a little about fighting.

For something the equivelent to hand to hand basic, I'd say it is more on the order of 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 (world wide). For something the equivelent of hand to hand expert, I'd say more like 1 in 10 and around 1 in 30 for HtH martial arts.

I wouldnt be so sure about that, I'm not sure about the US but in the Canadian Military I have never heard of a hand to hand fighting course being taught. Sure there are courses you can take on the side, kinda like martial arts at the YMCA, but hand to hand fighting is just something that is not taught in Basic training or any other military training that I know of.

One thing that I see the rage now is Mixed Martial Arts, I know several guys in the military that are members of MMA clubs. So I agree with the thought made earlier that martial arts is more common than we think, but I think its a bit of a myth that soldiers (at least Canadian ones) are all trained hand to hand fighters.

In the USA all of the soldiers in the military get a basic hth, melee and rifles traning in the first eight weeks of basic training. I assume pistols but on this I cant be shore . Marines are still taught the art of using bayonets to this day.

What makes you think that Hand-To-Hand is all that valuable a Skill in a world with Zombies that are (officially) that tough?

Even if these Zeds retained "normal" human ranges of durability, they STILL wouldn't be vulnerable to many martial arts moves designed to slow down or immobilize or knock out the living.

Used against the zombies? Not very. Against fellow humans who want to steal from you, or use you as bait, or drag you back to their cult compound to be sacrificed to Brulyx? Bit more useful.

HTH wouldn't be that effective against zombies personally. IMHO I just don't see how the specialized attacks would have that much of an effect. Plus, the way I play zombies they would just counter attack when you made an attack with your HTH anyway making you unable to defend yourself and getting bitten and or attacked anway. Although HTH would help you if you got grappled in this situation, survivability after the Wave would rely more on ranged skills and melee weapons since you don't really want to get close enough to the zombies to have to use HTH anyway.

90% of HtH training is about controlling your own body, so the majority of HtH training would be just as effective against Zombies as against humans. Knowing how to thread through or around the outreached zombie arms so that you can position your machete for a beheading slice would make a tremendous difference in how effective you are in combat against zombies.

--flatline

In real life, I would agree with you, however in DR game mechanics there is more specialized abilties (especially in the MA options) than in direct combat bonuses.

Against zombies, things like shoulder throws, joint locks, parries, and blocks are still going to help you against a zombie. Some will be more effective than others but can still mean the difference between life and death.

I was a decent wrestler in Jr High and High School ... but I would never want to use those skills (admitted atrophied in the last 20 years) against the dead.

I can't say how well I'd fare against zombies, but I am supremely confident that flatline with his martial art training is better prepared than flatline without his martial art training. I can't think of a single scenario where I would be better off if I'd never trained.

--flatline

I was a bouncer at a punk rock club in the 90's (Blondie's-Detroit)and I did a few years of SCA medieval combat. I'd still be at it but a couple permanent injuries wizened me up. God blessed me with a spare testicle so I'm basically fine.

Anyhoo, I think with a shield and a sword I'd do quite well against a few zombies.

This is the way I see it with the rules in DR with hand to hand training. The first example relies greatly on how the GM runs the combat rules the second is a generic example that should finalize the point.

Example #1
You are fighting a zombie one-on-one. Sure your hand to hand skills are helping, you can parry that one zombie or dodge with no problem. The single zombie can't parry or dodge back (that's my thinking with the generic zombie anyway), however they do relentlessly attack, which means once your attack is over, they do a simultaneous attack which you can't parry or dodge back, eventually whittling you down. And you only have 15 seconds before more zombies show up because of the moan. You measily 1d3 damage probably won't be enough to take down a zombie in that 15 second period.

Example #2
You are fighting a swarm of zombies. You have hand to hand however, unless you got the Two Weapon W.P. you can't parry more than one zombie at a time. Even then you can't parry more than two at a time. This being the case, the third and more attacks will still get a free attack at you that you can not parry or dodge, the zombies will break you down eventually, the MA training may help you get away from a swarm, but it in no way will be a huge factor in helping you win.

Does having Expert or MA have bonuses? Sure, but in the rules of the game, just getting into hand to hand is a poor choice and would not be a good idea. The game is about survivability, getting in to hand to hand and beating zombies with your first, or melee weapons, is not a good idea with the swarm and relentless attack method zombies use.

Simultaneous attack is a terrible rule. I can only believe that it was created by someone who has never trained in hand to hand combat. I promise you that if I throw a punch, I am not giving up my ability to defend against any counter my opponent might attempt to throw at the same time although it might cause me to abort my punch.

If I'm armed and my opponent is not, it's mind numbingly obtuse to think that given my range advantage he would still have any chance at all to hit me back when I attack him. Unless I'm stupid with my attack, the best he could do would be to engage my weapon (knock it away whilst attempting to close with me, perhaps...or maybe attempt to entangle it).

And despite what the rules say, having a weapon when your opponent does not is a HUGE advantage if only because you can attack your opponent at ranges that prevent him from being able to counter attack.



When swarmed, you absolutely must move to improve your position. Parrying when outnumbered can, at best, buy you a little time.



Fists are pretty useless against a zombie and given their enhanced strength and imperviousness to pain, joint locking and limb breaking is more difficult and less effective than when used against a normal human.

However, a man with a decent melee weapon and a mediocre ability to use it should have little difficulty against a single unarmed zombie. The fact that the rules don't adequately simulate this is a failure of the rules, nothing more.

--flatline

I'm not denying that at all, that was one thing I actually appreciated about AD&D rules, having larger weapons affect your initiative, however that is just not the reality in any Palladium setting. Having weapons will give you a range advantage, but at the same time, with larger weapons can make the person have a slower attack or (in the case of a two-handed sword) make it ineffective if their opponent got into hth range. No rpg I've ever played (which is a limited list) has ever had rules to reflect this, so unfortunately, the reality of weapons in combat will be something we will always have to leave wanting.

both AD&D and Exhalted had Range/reach/init mods for weapons.
A Simple fix is to apply a new range of Close combat mods for various weapon types.

Yes it is a simple fix, but seeing it as cannon? .... I'm not so sure on that.

If reach comes into play I want a boar spear. But at the same time the are so hard to kill that a spear wouldn't be much use. I can't easily deal 40 damage with a spear in one attack. ...and I can't easily hit the head every time wither. Heck its hard to beat the NAR 14.

While I agree 100% earlier posts regarding the disadvantages of HTH against the dead however I must ask (since DR is one of the few core rulebooks I don't own) what is the SDC value for the knees of various dead? Seems to me a well placed kick or bat shot to the knees would mean a seriosly hampered Zed? Right? And yeah I have to agree with an earlier post regarding growing up street fighting. It gives you the equivalent of HTH basic.

The "S.D.C. by location" tables aren't quite that detailed.

Only the legs as a whole are given a value.

Also, given how very tiny the kneecaps are on the body of that moving target, it would be a Called Shot with even more of a penalty to hit than would be other areas like the head.

The whole problem in the first place is that the rules do not accurately portray hand to hand fighting.

I agree with this assessment.

--flatline

Ok, I won't debate rules issues, we long time gamers know how to get around them. The question, is whether breaking a knee will slow a zed down long enough to escape, or make them vulnerable to head shots?

Breaking a knee will most definitely slow down a zed.

Head shots are already pretty easy in hand-to-hand combat. I don't know if breaking a knee will make a head shot noticeably easier.

--flatline