Weapons

[bradshaw]

Would anyone like a Dead Reign Weapons compendium book? Just curious.

[Shawn Merrow]

I would like to see one myself.

[Ravenwing]

One that upgrades the weapons to be more in line with real world ones? Ohhhh, can we include things like Reliability to weapons? Bonuses to strike based on weapon balance, crafting whatever? Kinda like what they did in Weapons Locker/Ultramodern firearms for D20 games? Also can we get someone that understands how firearms work, Firearm classification( so that we don't look at it and shake our heads going really?), and an overall modernization of the weapons section? And please, please don't just copy and past from the Zombie Survival guide, that book makes no sense when it comes to weapons. I think if those issues could be tackled and a weapons compendium made it'd be a quick seller. Also, and this is just a little wish of mine, can we get each weapon either illustrated, or pictured? As far as I know you can't copyright a weapons appearance for illustration purposes(I could be wrong however), so it shouldn't be hard to find pictures for them, or have the freelancers whip up some illustrations.

[Rockwolf66]

I'll have to break out my copy of Excel and then go through the referance library of my favorite gun collector. I know I can create a very large list of weapons and a bit about them, Including accurate stats as I don't want to see a .50BMG sniper rifle with a 200m range...Someone really messed up on that one as such a weapon has a 2,000m range.

[Ravenwing]

Personally I'd do a weapons compendium in a simple format. Break it down by classification(Pistols, Rifle, Submachine Gun, Machine Gun, Sniper & Anti-material Rifle, Grenade Launchers & Missile Weapons.) I'd begin each chapter with a generic list of calibers and damages. Then I'd break down specific models by manufacturers. Very similar to how the D20 books were organized.

[Colt47]

Guns would just be a small section of the weapons compendium. Why not go for the full nine yards and do an entire section on creative impromptu weaponry? There's so much stuff at department stores, super marts, and other places that could be fashioned into interesting weapons. Maybe not the most practical weapons, but weapons none the less. It's the magic of the genre!

[Ravenwing]

Guns would just be a small section of the weapons compendium. Why not go for the full nine yards and do an entire section on creative impromptu weaponry? There's so much stuff at department stores, super marts, and other places that could be fashioned into interesting weapons. Maybe not the most practical weapons, but weapons none the less. It's the magic of the genre!

OH HELLS YEAH!!!!!!!

Buzzblade stick!

One regulation hockey stick.
+ Aluminum Siding
+ Table saw blade 14in or better
= fun for the whole family!

[Pepsi Jedi]

Palladium's always been a bit funny about 'real weapons'. I don't hold it against them, they're RPG geeks. Not military guys or anything. So their 'knowledge' of weapons comes from movies or what limited resources they could have at the time. (( Remember, when Palladium started and the weapons got stats, was "Pre-google" Timeframe. Alot of people today forget that before the upswing of the internet, looking stuff up was alot harder than it is now. Our kids will likely not know the 'FUN" of having to go to the library and using a card catalog and looking up books and then going to the shelf and hoping the book wasn't checked out, miss filed, or jjust missing.)).

The 'guns' that are found in palladium books are the same ones found in palladium books in 1980. lol

I'd love for someone to take a 2011 (( the 2012 isn't out yet)) Gun buiers guide or something and go through and stat it out. A bit more than needed. (( Do we REALLY need 500 shotguns? lol)) but it'd be intresting.

I'd also love stats that show getting hit by a crowbar is ----alot----- different than getting hit by a stick in someone's yard.

Sadly I think this is a 'dream project'. One they're not likely to touch for a few reasons. 1) They really are just rpg geek guys and have shown extremly clearly over the past 20+Years that they've never held a gun, much less shot one, much less shot more than one. lol. That's not bad!! Many people are the same. But their ignorance would take alot of work to eliveate. 2) Any try at this sort of thing is going to be met with hostile reaction. For every gun or weapon they stat out right, people are going to find fault with 5 others. "Oh the actual range of a Mossberg 509A1 with a slug is 100 feet more than they're saying, but the stats for the M700 aren't taking into effect humidity when the rifle is fired. ect ect ad infin. and 3)It's alot of work for limited return. They very likely can't use 'real' images of the guns with out paying the companies that produce the weapons. You can't just collect them from the internet and put them in the book. (( Not THAT many images of drawn firearms to be found and photos wouldn't look right in palladium's low quality black and white printing))


So while I'd like this sort of book, I don't think it'll happen.

I take the weapon tables. I sort of eye ball them, then I sprinkle common sense on them, (( Yep house rules)) and call it done.

[Colt47]

Guns would just be a small section of the weapons compendium. Why not go for the full nine yards and do an entire section on creative impromptu weaponry? There's so much stuff at department stores, super marts, and other places that could be fashioned into interesting weapons. Maybe not the most practical weapons, but weapons none the less. It's the magic of the genre!

OH HELLS YEAH!!!!!!!

Buzzblade stick!

One regulation hockey stick.
+ Aluminum Siding
+ Table saw blade 14in or better
= fun for the whole family!

Don't forget citrus powered blasting caps, ice cream cone molotov cocktails (I've actually had a friend make one before on the fourth of July ) and other craziness.

[Ravenwing]

Guns would just be a small section of the weapons compendium. Why not go for the full nine yards and do an entire section on creative impromptu weaponry? There's so much stuff at department stores, super marts, and other places that could be fashioned into interesting weapons. Maybe not the most practical weapons, but weapons none the less. It's the magic of the genre!

OH HELLS YEAH!!!!!!!

Buzzblade stick!

One regulation hockey stick.
+ Aluminum Siding
+ Table saw blade 14in or better
= fun for the whole family!

Don't forget citrus powered blasting caps, ice cream cone molotov cocktails (I've actually had a friend make one before on the fourth of July ) and other craziness.

Lol!

[Trooper Jim]

Personally I'd do a weapons compendium in a simple format. Break it down by classification(Pistols, Rifle, Submachine Gun, Machine Gun, Sniper & Anti-material Rifle, Grenade Launchers & Missile Weapons.) I'd begin each chapter with a generic list of calibers and damages. Then I'd break down specific models by manufacturers. Very similar to how the D20 books were organized.

I just tend to use the Ultra Modern Weapons book for the D20 system or the Millenniums ends system.

[Ravenwing]

Personally I'd do a weapons compendium in a simple format. Break it down by classification(Pistols, Rifle, Submachine Gun, Machine Gun, Sniper & Anti-material Rifle, Grenade Launchers & Missile Weapons.) I'd begin each chapter with a generic list of calibers and damages. Then I'd break down specific models by manufacturers. Very similar to how the D20 books were organized.

I just tend to use the Ultra Modern Weapons book for the D20 system or the Millenniums ends system.

I do as well, including reliability, critical multipliers, damage, and bonuses or penalties for manufacturing. But it would be nice if PB put out a book as well.In the d20 book we have dozens of weapons that inflict the same damage, same stat lines even. Lets streamline that so that only weapons with special properties are acutally described. Because I can live with something as simply as

5.56mm Nato (rifle) 1800 Ft range 4d6 SS 1d4x10 3RB 19-20x2.

[Trooper Jim]

Personally I'd do a weapons compendium in a simple format. Break it down by classification(Pistols, Rifle, Submachine Gun, Machine Gun, Sniper & Anti-material Rifle, Grenade Launchers & Missile Weapons.) I'd begin each chapter with a generic list of calibers and damages. Then I'd break down specific models by manufacturers. Very similar to how the D20 books were organized.

I just tend to use the Ultra Modern Weapons book for the D20 system or the Millenniums ends system.

I do as well, including reliability, critical multipliers, damage, and bonuses or penalties for manufacturing. But it would be nice if PB put out a book as well.In the d20 book we have dozens of weapons that inflict the same damage, same stat lines even. Lets streamline that so that only weapons with special properties are acutally described. Because I can live with something as simply as

5.56mm Nato (rifle) 1800 Ft range 4d6 SS 1d4x10 3RB 19-20x2.

I agree, to a degree. Not many modern weapons really have any special properties. I like detail in my weapons book. This include good descriptions, realistic art an the correct attributes for the weapon. I hate it when i buy a book and any of these elements is missing. I also would like the book to contain info on the major weapons used by the military and law enforcement. That means not only Glock pistols, M4s and M 16. But how about the M249. And other stuff. Also detailed info on optics and accessories for the weapons and what if any bonus they provide.

[Ravenwing]

Personally I'd do a weapons compendium in a simple format. Break it down by classification(Pistols, Rifle, Submachine Gun, Machine Gun, Sniper & Anti-material Rifle, Grenade Launchers & Missile Weapons.) I'd begin each chapter with a generic list of calibers and damages. Then I'd break down specific models by manufacturers. Very similar to how the D20 books were organized.

I just tend to use the Ultra Modern Weapons book for the D20 system or the Millenniums ends system.

I do as well, including reliability, critical multipliers, damage, and bonuses or penalties for manufacturing. But it would be nice if PB put out a book as well.In the d20 book we have dozens of weapons that inflict the same damage, same stat lines even. Lets streamline that so that only weapons with special properties are acutally described. Because I can live with something as simply as

5.56mm Nato (rifle) 1800 Ft range 4d6 SS 1d4x10 3RB 19-20x2.

I agree, to a degree. Not many modern weapons really have any special properties. I like detail in my weapons book. This include good descriptions, realistic art an the correct attributes for the weapon. I hate it when i buy a book and any of these elements is missing. I also would like the book to contain info on the major weapons used by the military and law enforcement. That means not only Glock pistols, M4s and M 16. But how about the M249. And other stuff. Also detailed info on optics and accessories for the weapons and what if any bonus they provide.

you have a good point there. Since one 7.62mm Nato rifle is pretty much the same as another, you could add sections on what organizations use what weapons, as well as weapon accessories.

lol, ofcourse thats exactly what the PB weapons book did, it's just very dated, and needs a major upgrade.

[Trooper Jim]

Personally I'd do a weapons compendium in a simple format. Break it down by classification(Pistols, Rifle, Submachine Gun, Machine Gun, Sniper & Anti-material Rifle, Grenade Launchers & Missile Weapons.) I'd begin each chapter with a generic list of calibers and damages. Then I'd break down specific models by manufacturers. Very similar to how the D20 books were organized.

I just tend to use the Ultra Modern Weapons book for the D20 system or the Millenniums ends system.

I do as well, including reliability, critical multipliers, damage, and bonuses or penalties for manufacturing. But it would be nice if PB put out a book as well.In the d20 book we have dozens of weapons that inflict the same damage, same stat lines even. Lets streamline that so that only weapons with special properties are acutally described. Because I can live with something as simply as

5.56mm Nato (rifle) 1800 Ft range 4d6 SS 1d4x10 3RB 19-20x2.

I agree, to a degree. Not many modern weapons really have any special properties. I like detail in my weapons book. This include good descriptions, realistic art an the correct attributes for the weapon. I hate it when i buy a book and any of these elements is missing. I also would like the book to contain info on the major weapons used by the military and law enforcement. That means not only Glock pistols, M4s and M 16. But how about the M249. And other stuff. Also detailed info on optics and accessories for the weapons and what if any bonus they provide.

you have a good point there. Since one 7.62mm Nato rifle is pretty much the same as another, you could add sections on what organizations use what weapons, as well as weapon accessories.

lol, ofcourse thats exactly what the PB weapons book did, it's just very dated, and needs a major upgrade.

Of course Palladium's gun book was dated before it even came out. The sad part is that there were already several other competitors gun books out that were much more accurate and, well better researched and written. Chameleon Eclectic's Ultra Modern Firearms, comes to mind. Of course even the Twilight 2000's Infantry Weapons of the world was better.

[Grell]

Would anyone like a Dead Reign Weapons compendium book? Just curious.

Yes. Like a compendium that lists the most commonly available weapons or most popular as well as a segment on rounds vs. brain cases!

[Ravenwing]

Are thees a pain to use in Palladium games ?

Are what a pain?

[Ravenwing]

Are thees a pain to use in Palladium games ?

Are what a pain?

Chameleon Eclectic's Ultra Modern Firearms, and Twilight 2000's Infantry Weapons of the world. Are they a pain to bring in ?

I use the d20 weapons locker myself, along with the rules for Vitality points(Damage doubles).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah the gun section in the back of the Heroes Unlimited Game Master guide is about 500 times better than one's you'll find elsewhere. Good stuff.

[MurderCityDisciple]

One thing for DR purposes, is how common the various weapons are for each particular region or location. Barret fifty cals aren't a dime-a-dozen.

[Rockwolf66]

Sort of like the Banned by Name firearms list from California is stupidly long and does nothing to prevent crime.

[azazel1024]

One thing for DR purposes, is how common the various weapons are for each particular region or location. Barret fifty cals aren't a dime-a-dozen.

Within reason you can find some info on line of how common various calibers are and work from there if you mean a DR guide to "what you'd find in a house" if you came up with a roll (or GM decided) that you find a rifle.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the .22 rim fire is one of the most popular with .223 and .30-60 being around second place and third place. .270, .30-30 and .303 are also popular calibres.

The closet I can come upon quickly only has handgun statistics (BATF Annual Firearms manufacturing and export report, so this is stuff sold in the US and abroad by US manufacturers to the best of my knowledge).

It doesn't have a fine break down, but to the best of my knowledge "To .22 - xxx,xxxx" and then "To .25 - xxx,xxx" means that there are xxx,xxx pistols sold of .22 and under calibre and xxx,xxx pistols over .22 up to .25 calibre sold.

The numbers for 2010 were (rounding to nearest thousand)

To .22 - 373,000
To .25 - 21,000
To .32 - 40,000
To .380 - 666,000
To 9mm - 630,000
To .50 - 499,000 (this would include 10mm, .45 and .40 as far as I know)

That is for semi-autos, not including revolvers.

It does not break down rifles or shotguns by calibre, but there were a total of 2.2 million semi-auto pistols, 550,000 revolvers, 1.8 million rifles and 743,000 shotguns manufacturerd in the US in 2010 with another 60,000 Misc firearms (not sure what a Misc. firearm is). Of those about 220,000 were exported from the US.

[abtex]

Even with what is a available on the the open RPG market place and update able with a little browsing online. A Palladium Cannon new updated firearms and weapon book(s) would be welcome.

[Trooper Jim]

I would agree, but how about some good art and and decent weapons this time.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The thing with the "art' is that Palladium isn't going to go to 50 gun companies and get permission to publish their guns. You know how bloody rabid Palladium is about the 'no conversions' rule? Imagine gun companies, who are SERIOUS companies making fire arms, and the money those bring in at $300 to $10,000+ per item, and how much they'd charge for the usage of their products in official publication for sale. Much much much money. Palladium doesn't have that sort of money for a book. Especially one that's not for it's flagship line. (( Rifts)).

[Pepsi Jedi]

The thing with the "art' is that Palladium isn't going to go to 50 gun companies and get permission to publish their guns. You know how bloody rabid Palladium is about the 'no conversions' rule? Imagine gun companies, who are SERIOUS companies making fire arms, and the money those bring in at $300 to $10,000+ per item, and how much they'd charge for the usage of their products in official publication for sale. Much much much money. Palladium doesn't have that sort of money for a book. Especially one that's not for it's flagship line. (( Rifts)).

They would not have to go weapon by weapon to do it, maybe just tweak range, burst rules and damages, and a little bit more on application of the types of fire. We get along with what we have just fine by house ruling and such. But new stuff is always ok.

I was replying to the "Good art" thing. If you're doing laser rifles and plasma cannons it's cool to have drawn sci fi weapons.
If you're replicating modern firearms, to get 'good art' you're gonna want photos of the real guns, or in Palladium's case black and white line drawings of them. That gets alot harder. You edge into Palladium's bane. The Trademark/copy write/ intellectual property thing.

They are Zealous about "no conversions" here on the forums. Even though every other RPG forum _I_ have been on hasn't cared. (( just speaking personal experience)). They're not going to do that on one hand because of fear of lawsuit... then produce a book of another companies products with out their permission or paying them to do so.

[Trooper Jim]

I doubt gun companies are going to make PB pay royalties for art. It seems other RPG companies get it right without being sued. i also doubt WoTC pays Colt or FN to use drawings of their guns. A gun or vehicle book without pictures; is worthless.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I doubt gun companies are going to make PB pay royalties for art. It seems other RPG companies get it right without being sued. i also doubt WoTC pays Colt or FN to use drawings of their guns. A gun or vehicle book without pictures; is worthless.

That's my point. One with out pictures is largely worthless and Palladium has made such huge giant stinks over intellectual property and copy write laws over the years that if they went ahead and used the names and images of the stuff with out direct permission they'd look horrible. And getting that direct permission from gun companies, who pay alot of money to lobbies each year to stifle the 'guns for kids' type image, is going to be hard. Remember, RPG's never had a 'great' image. At 'best' it's nerdy, at worst there's still a huge segment of the population that liken RPG's to cults and that satanist crap from the late 80s and early 90s.

Will gun companies put their guns in Ghost Recon? Sure!! Free advertising.

Put them in a pen and paper RPG where someone might take the gun to school and claim he was getting points for killing orcs or doing some satanist sponsored killing? not so much.

A few write up's with out pictures? ok. Past that? not so much. Even the bigger companies like White wolf didn't put a lot of pictures in their Armory book. They did write up's and hinted for you to go to the web for pics. Shadowrun uses fake megacorps and 100% made up guns, ect.

[Gamer]

Your going a bit overboard there Pespsi, could they do it? yes, would they do it? very unlikely,
unless PB pissed them off somehow.
Winchester among others already have images in many other rpg's.
Besides video games are the thing being blamed on kids killing each other now.
If anyone knows about the legalities of likeness usage PB and their lawyers would most likely know more about it than we do.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your going a bit overboard there Pespsi, could they do it? yes, would they do it? very unlikely,
unless PB pissed them off somehow.
Winchester among others already have images in many other rpg's.
Besides video games are the thing being blamed on kids killing each other now.
If anyone knows about the legalities of likeness usage PB and their lawyers would most likely know more about it than we do.

There's a big difference between 'Winchester" and "lever action rifles". *Shrugs* And if you read, part of the problem is Palladiums Zealous IP stuff. They've sort of painted themselves into a corner when it comes to things like this. They rage and rage and foam at the mouth over anything IP Related, so they can't, with out totally invalidating their own position, go against that.

They can't go to court with video game people over the term "Rift" and make a big stench for months about how they have to protect their product. How much time they're spending with the lawyers (( never got that part myself.)) how much money it took to defend the ownership, how much time it took, pushing back books across the board, ect ect ect ect (( and then settled.)) then simply use dozens and dozens of other companies products in their books with out paying for them.

See the problem there? Palladium makes a HUGE Deal about IP and Copy write and trademark and such. So they can't while doing that just do a book with 100s of other companies products pictured and portrayed in the book, with out paying for the rights to do so.

Not to mention, the smallest gun company, should it get upset about it's guns being used in a game with out their permission, try and sue palladium, Palladium would simply be gone. One gun sold brings in as much money as 10 to 350 books. (( depending on the firearm)). Palladium would not be able to stand up to the companies lawsuit. Most especially when the company can take one look at the forums here and produce reams and reams of proof that Palladium is well aware of IP and Trademark law, ect.

We're told weekly just how horrible things are at palladium and how much of a razors edge their walking and how close to total failure the company is. A directed lawsuit from a gun company over something silly like this would ruin them.

Who's going to take that risk, for a book, that will not be used for it's flagship line? If you check the all things palladium forum, there were statements made at the Open house that the company makes it's money from Rifts... which allows it to do little side projects from time to time on other game lines, but it's MONEY comes from rifts. So this book wouldn't even make them money.... and the risk to get sued is higher than is one with just laser rifles or the like.

[Gamer]

Who said anything about lever action rifle?

I am fully aware of what Palladium has done in the past and will say it again, you are a bit overboard.
Palladium is nothing compared to some who protect their IP.

Firearm manufacturers are big boys on the block whose lawyers make more money on consultation then PB makes all year and when they get their lawyers warmed up oversomething it's over big bucks like patent infringement.
Not hey look Earl these dudes have a picture of our MK-16 in this here game book, it even has a cobra wrap on the stock.
Did they at least get the picatinny right this time.

That would be about it.
You can cry wolf all you want Pepsi, but they aren't going to cry over likeness usage in a simple RPG book.
Would they ask for money? maybe but doubtful.
They are more worried about getting sued by an idiots next of kin who mishandled the weapon and killed themself or of another company using their patents than a table game company using a picture that they would probably send them if asked for it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Who said anything about lever action rifle?

I am fully aware of what Palladium has done in the past and will say it again, you are a bit overboard.
Palladium is nothing compared to some who protect their IP.

Firearm manufacturers are big boys on the block whose lawyers make more money on consultation then PB makes all year and when they get their lawyers warmed up oversomething it's over big bucks like patent infringement.
Not hey look Earl these dudes have a picture of our MK-16 in this here game book, it even has a cobra wrap on the stock.
Did they at least get the picatinny right this time.

That would be about it.
You can cry wolf all you want Pepsi, but they aren't going to cry over likeness usage in a simple RPG book.
Would they ask for money? maybe but doubtful.
They are more worried about getting sued by an idiots next of kin who mishandled the weapon and killed themself or of another company using their patents than a table game company using a picture that they would probably send them if asked for it.

Yeah.. so you think... you don't know... and what happens if your guess is wrong? Palladium gets sued out of business.

You gonna roll those dice? Cuz kevin and crew aren't. It's not gonna happen man.

[Gamer]

Your the doom and gloom one, crying they've done bad.
I've been saying if anyone knows the legalities of using likenesses it's PB and their lawyers.
Instead of predicting doom and gloom why not just ask them if they ever had dealt with this before.
It's not like they are going to publish a game with modern weapons being depicted. oh that's right.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Your the doom and gloom one, crying they've done bad.
I've been saying if anyone knows the legalities of using likenesses it's PB and their lawyers.
Instead of predicting doom and gloom why not just ask them if they ever had dealt with this before.
It's not like they are going to publish a game with modern weapons being depicted. oh that's right.

No no. I'm not saying they have 'done bad'. I'm pointing out they're not stupid enough to risk it.

You're the one going "Oh well the gun companies have bigger things to worry about, they probably wouldn't sue"

I'm the one pointing out "probably" isn't "WILL NEVER"and you cannot say they will never, and it'd be STUPID for Palladium to risk it. Most especially after they, themselves make such a huge deal about this exact sort of thing.

[Gamer]

No no. I'm not saying they have 'done bad'.

really ?

They've sort of painted themselves into a corner when it comes to things like this. They rage and rage and foam at the mouth over anything IP Related, so they can't, with out totally invalidating their own position, go against that.

Hmm that sounds just like you did to me.

You just don't know what your talking about, using a product is not the same as using a likeness of a product.
you are too busy crying over something you don't know anything about, if you did you'd shut up and ask PB about it instead of going off ranting about it spouting gloom and doom.
Again and for the final time PB would know about the laws using depictions of weapons, if they didn't their lawyer must.
You can rant and rave and go overboard all you want about things you don't know, I'm leaving it for PB to deal with as it was and always will be.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No no. I'm not saying they have 'done bad'.

really ?

Yeah. Really.

They've sort of painted themselves into a corner when it comes to things like this. They rage and rage and foam at the mouth over anything IP Related, so they can't, with out totally invalidating their own position, go against that.

Hmm that sounds just like you did to me.

No. That's not "Bad" that's the position they're in. You're sitting there saying "go ahead. use all the images of the guns with out permission or paying for them. Chances are they won't sue"

I'm pointing out that Palladium is very much AGAINST that exact sort of thing. And it's STUPID to to do if you're a company. MORE Stupid if you're a tiny company with 5 employees walking the razors edge. You keep advocating usage of the guns with out permission.

Me pointing out that palladium won't do it, and that not only will they not, but they've been rabid about this sort of thing isn't saying they've done "bad"

Doing bad, would be ripping off the images like you're saying they should

You just don't know what your talking about, using a product is not the same as using a likeness of a product.

Putting a write up in a book and putting the picture over it would defiantly fall under usage of it with out permission in a publication for sale.

you are too busy crying over something you don't know anything about, if you did you'd shut up and ask PB about it instead of going off ranting about it spouting gloom and doom.

Wow. Get rude. See how far that gets ya. Just because I disagree with you and don't' advocate stealing other people's stuff to use in a role playing game doesn't mean I'm crying. I'm not crying. I'm pointing out that Palladium is NOT going to do it. As for "Asking palladium" You go right ahead. See if you get an answer.

Again and for the final time PB would know about the laws using depictions of weapons, if they didn't their lawyer must.

Yeah, and again. *Pauses to look around* Oh yeah, there's no book like that. Ever wonder why? Ever think they might know? And know that if they did as you're advocating, they could be sued, so they don't? It's not like it's 2012 and suddenly someone sat up and went 'GASP!! A weapons book for an RPG!! It Might sell!! OMG!! How come noone's thought of this before!?!?" Heck Palladium's done weapons books. 20+ years ago, but they're not like are being advocated here. With real weapons and real listings and real pictures of them.

Ever wonder why? Shadowrun put out a gun book THIS WEEK yet not one of the guns ar 'real'

You're getting insulting and stuff because your idea was shot down and going on that palladium will know best. There's been no book like you're saying produced in decades from the company. Do you HONESTLY think you're the first guy to bring it up? Do you even think you're the first guy this week? lol It's not done due to a number of reasons. SOME of which we've touched on here. Not the least of which is the fact they can't get that specific about weapons and put in pictures, nor the fact that "RIFTS" is the flag ship money maker line and a book of guns for Dead Reign just wouldn't sell and get the money that they'd need from a non flag ship line.

You can rant and rave and go overboard all you want about things you don't know, I'm leaving it for PB to deal with as it was and always will be.

I'm not ranting and raving. I'm pointing out your idea doesn't hold water.

As for leaving it to PB. That's great.

Have they announced such a book?

Have they hinted at such a book?

Has there been any indication what so ever that they might remotely entertain such a book?

No.... So I guess if you were right... that'd be different, right? If it'd be so easy and make them money, they'd do it. Correct? Yet they're not. So ask yourself why.

[Trooper Jim]

OK, I am going to interject some realism into this argument. No one is going to get sued for writing a gun book with illustrations for an RPG. How do I know? Well, did WoTC get sued, how about Crafty Games, What about Aldric Entertainment, maybe Chameleon Eclectic or Games Design Workshop? No they didn't. Now you if used copy written photos and illustrations, you might get in some hot water but using your own art, not so much.
Another thing to consider the hundreds of firearms reference book that are out there, did any of the publishers get sued over those books, I doubt it. the they don't want to get sued argument is a cop out. the real reason we will never see an update to the horrible "Contemporary Weapons" is, well, Palladium doesn't consider it a priority. If they did we would have a new gun book. So I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Trooper Jim]

The thing is you wont get taken to court, no one has ever been sued over this.

[azazel1024]

A large part of the issue is that PB would in some way have to take their own pictures of every single weapon to use them in the book. That is a tall order to manage unless they are only going to use a handful of images.

Otherwise if they are just grabbing images off the internet or some source similar to that, they WILL NEED TO GET PERMISION TO USE THEM. Copyright of an image IS in fact implied. Even if the images are under a creative commons license, PB would not be able to use them as they would be using them for profit.

As it stands with copy right, the only way they could do it is taking their own pictures, or getting permision from the owner of the copy right to each and every single picture they use, which is a rather odious task for the size of the company.

My 2 cents.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The thing is you wont get taken to court, no one has ever been sued over this.

Thing is you don't know that. Do gun books in the industry publish pictures? yes. They get permission as that's what they DO. You're ASSUMING that those books didn't get permission to publish the pics. I assure you they didn't just throw them up randomly.

Some of the ones you've mentioned, I don't own, so I can't tell you if they actually put real guns in the game, or if they put "AK 47" and put up a general picture of an AK 47. Or if they put in "Springfield XDM .40" With an actual picture of the pistol.

I'm betting it's more of the former 'Ak 47" with a generic pic, or 'M16" with a generic pic.

ASSUMING that companies won't jealously guard their products and the usage of such is silly. So is "Noone's ever been sued over this" Last year for months and months Palladium Sued the game maker of a new MMO over the name. And that was just a similar name in a different sort of game. (( yes RPG's and MMO's are both games but they're radically different).

Palladium has always and still makes a very large deal over this sort of thing. That being said, they're not going to take an MMO to court and spend loads of money to sue them (( and settle.)) and then turn around and do it to someone else.

[Trooper Jim]

artist renditions!!!!! drawings!!!!!!!! not pictures!!!!!!!! line art.

[Wooly]

My gripe about weapons compendiums in general is that there is a tendency to treat firearms like magical swords. That is every obsecure prototype is included to make the book interesting. That is fine I just ask that the rarity of such weapons is at least noted in the weapons descripiton.

Really one 16" barreled select fire (or semi-auto) 5.56mm carbine isn't that different from the next as far as the game goes.

Optics and weapons accessories could fill a book on their own.

I think it is very hard for people who are not already shooters who are knowledageable about firearms to write a weapons compendium.

I actively compete in 3-gun matches and IDPA. Former Marine infantryman and police officer. But I know very little about hunting rifles, fancy shotguns, and revolvers.

[azazel1024]

I think the point is that if PB does another weapons compendium they should consider doing two things.

The first, find a fan or friend who has some actual gun experience (it doesn't even have to be super vast, but one with a resonable background, could even just be simply ex-military).

Next, KISS principal. As you mentioned, there just is not THAT much difference, on a RPG level between one selective fire 5.56mm gun and the next. YES there are differences, but generally not that vast.

It would be much easier to do the book by the following.

Have caliber catagories for range and damage (maybe have a penetration/anti-AR rating as well).

Something like say 5.56mm "short barrel", 5.56mm "long barrel", 7.62x39mm "short barrel", 7.62x39mm "long barrel", etc.

The range, damage and penetration ability is roughly the same in each catagory. Then if you want, have a list for each catagory as well with the basics for the weapon such as weight, typical magazine capacities (or internal capacity for tube/internal box mag weapons) and rough street price and/or Paramilitary purchaser price (IE an MP5 IIRC is roughly $1,200-1,400 new or so direct from H&K for a Law Enforcement Agency or Military buyer, but for general public, if it was manufacturered before the fire arms control act I think runs in the $8,000-10,000 or so price range for an automatic MP5 if you have the correct license to buy it as a civilian). Oh and rate of fire. Maybe a scentence or two if there is anything notable about it.

So for example

5.56mm "Short Barrel"
Damage: 5d6
Range: 200yds, 300yds with scope
Penetration: +2 to penetrate AR

Mini Ruger 14 (Short barrel version)
Weight: 5.5lbs
Magazine capacity: Avaible 5, 10, 15, 20 and 30 round magazines
Rate of fire: Single shot, Semi-automatic
Cost: $800 typical
Notes: A popular short barrelled rifle. Can use both civilian .223 and military 5.56mm ammunition. A variety of accessories are available and comes with fixed stock, collapsable stock or foldable stock options as well as a front and rear pistol grip options.

AR-15 short barrel
Weight: 6-7lbs
Magazine capacity: Available with 10, 15, 20, 30 round magazines
Rate of fire: Single shot, semi-automatic
Cost: $800 typical
Notes: The AR-15 "chasis" is probably one of the most popular rifle "chasis" sold in the US and around the world. There are a variety of different "uppers" and "lowers" allowing users to easily customize their rifle. Everything from shotgun uppers, to a "regular" .223 or 5.56 upper and even .50 caliber uppers are available. The short barreled version of the AR-15 is most similar cosmetically and functionally to the military M-4 Carbine (with the exception of being semi-automatic).

etc, etc, etc

Anyway, just my example, but if I was going to put together a weapons compendium that is how I'd do it. Restating damage every single time is a waste of space. Range on weapons with similar barrel lengths and calibers is going to be pretty similar and I feel like is only worth mentioning standout exceptions (say, with some "sniper" type weapons, and at that typically requires match grade ammo). No my example was not using actual specifics, just off the top of my head/rough numbers. I'd probably only include inked pictures of maybe 1-3 weapon examples in each catagory, or maybe even just a single example for each catagory. I also wouldn't try to be all inclusive. I'd pick a dozen or so of each common pistol/SMG and rifle caliber and at least one weapon for each

[Pepsi Jedi]

My gripe about weapons compendiums in general is that there is a tendency to treat firearms like magical swords. That is every obsecure prototype is included to make the book interesting. That is fine I just ask that the rarity of such weapons is at least noted in the weapons descripiton.

Really one 16" barreled select fire (or semi-auto) 5.56mm carbine isn't that different from the next as far as the game goes.

Optics and weapons accessories could fill a book on their own.

I think it is very hard for people who are not already shooters who are knowledageable about firearms to write a weapons compendium.

I actively compete in 3-gun matches and IDPA. Former Marine infantryman and police officer. But I know very little about hunting rifles, fancy shotguns, and revolvers.

I've been thinking of getting into 3-gun competition. Still need to pick up a nice rifle. Been looking at the Stag Arms 3G. What do you use?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think the point is that if PB does another weapons compendium they should consider doing two things.

The first, find a fan or friend who has some actual gun experience (it doesn't even have to be super vast, but one with a resonable background, could even just be simply ex-military).

Next, KISS principal. As you mentioned, there just is not THAT much difference, on a RPG level between one selective fire 5.56mm gun and the next. YES there are differences, but generally not that vast.

It would be much easier to do the book by the following.

Have caliber catagories for range and damage (maybe have a penetration/anti-AR rating as well).

Something like say 5.56mm "short barrel", 5.56mm "long barrel", 7.62x39mm "short barrel", 7.62x39mm "long barrel", etc.

The range, damage and penetration ability is roughly the same in each catagory. Then if you want, have a list for each catagory as well with the basics for the weapon such as weight, typical magazine capacities (or internal capacity for tube/internal box mag weapons) and rough street price and/or Paramilitary purchaser price (IE an MP5 IIRC is roughly $1,200-1,400 new or so direct from H&K for a Law Enforcement Agency or Military buyer, but for general public, if it was manufacturered before the fire arms control act I think runs in the $8,000-10,000 or so price range for an automatic MP5 if you have the correct license to buy it as a civilian). Oh and rate of fire. Maybe a scentence or two if there is anything notable about it.

So for example

5.56mm "Short Barrel"
Damage: 5d6
Range: 200yds, 300yds with scope
Penetration: +2 to penetrate AR

Mini Ruger 14 (Short barrel version)
Weight: 5.5lbs
Magazine capacity: Avaible 5, 10, 15, 20 and 30 round magazines
Rate of fire: Single shot, Semi-automatic
Cost: $800 typical
Notes: A popular short barrelled rifle. Can use both civilian .223 and military 5.56mm ammunition. A variety of accessories are available and comes with fixed stock, collapsable stock or foldable stock options as well as a front and rear pistol grip options.

AR-15 short barrel
Weight: 6-7lbs
Magazine capacity: Available with 10, 15, 20, 30 round magazines
Rate of fire: Single shot, semi-automatic
Cost: $800 typical
Notes: The AR-15 "chasis" is probably one of the most popular rifle "chasis" sold in the US and around the world. There are a variety of different "uppers" and "lowers" allowing users to easily customize their rifle. Everything from shotgun uppers, to a "regular" .223 or 5.56 upper and even .50 caliber uppers are available. The short barreled version of the AR-15 is most similar cosmetically and functionally to the military M-4 Carbine (with the exception of being semi-automatic).

etc, etc, etc

Anyway, just my example, but if I was going to put together a weapons compendium that is how I'd do it. Restating damage every single time is a waste of space. Range on weapons with similar barrel lengths and calibers is going to be pretty similar and I feel like is only worth mentioning standout exceptions (say, with some "sniper" type weapons, and at that typically requires match grade ammo). No my example was not using actual specifics, just off the top of my head/rough numbers. I'd probably only include inked pictures of maybe 1-3 weapon examples in each catagory, or maybe even just a single example for each catagory. I also wouldn't try to be all inclusive. I'd pick a dozen or so of each common pistol/SMG and rifle caliber and at least one weapon for each

I rather like your view on it. The problem there in would be that the book would be pretty short if they did it that way. It'd be more a "Couple of rifter articles' than a full out source book.


Which..... Might actually be a really really good idea. We would get this sort of thing 1000 times faster if someone wrote it up and submitted it to the Rifter, than wait for it to be slotted as one of the 4 to 6 books we get a year.

[Wooly]

My gripe about weapons compendiums in general is that there is a tendency to treat firearms like magical swords. That is every obsecure prototype is included to make the book interesting. That is fine I just ask that the rarity of such weapons is at least noted in the weapons descripiton.

Really one 16" barreled select fire (or semi-auto) 5.56mm carbine isn't that different from the next as far as the game goes.

Optics and weapons accessories could fill a book on their own.

I think it is very hard for people who are not already shooters who are knowledageable about firearms to write a weapons compendium.

I actively compete in 3-gun matches and IDPA. Former Marine infantryman and police officer. But I know very little about hunting rifles, fancy shotguns, and revolvers.

I've been thinking of getting into 3-gun competition. Still need to pick up a nice rifle. Been looking at the Stag Arms 3G. What do you use?

I started off with:
Colt LE6920 with a Aimpoint Comp M2. Surefire p-mags, This is essentially a civilian legal version of the rifle I carried in Iraq.
Remington 870P with Scattergun technologies ghost ring rifle sights. I like rifle sights for slugs, many people don't use them. Personal preference.
Glock 23 (mid sized .40 S&W)

I now shoot in the Heavy Metal class.
Scar 17s 7.62 x 51mm NATO
Same Remington 870P
FNP-45 .45 ACP

Stag Arms makes fine rifles if you are willing to spend just a little more I would look hard at manufacturers that build to mil-spec. Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniels Defense, Noveske are all top tier builders. Still nothing wrong with Stag Arms. My first AR was a Rock River is it has never failed me.

If you want to be competitive in 3-gun (other than Heavy Metal which requires a pump gun) go ahead and start saving up for a semi auto shotgun now. Don't buy a saiga as the magazines are considered "speed loaders" they are also finicky and sometimes fail to cycle (without tuning) with low brass birdshot loads you will be required to use. For value and performance I would look hard at the Remington 1100 over much more expensive semi auto shotguns like Benellis.

Pistol. Shoot what you are most comfortable with. I am not a 1911 fan boy personally. Any of the big name polymer semi autos in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP will do. FNP (now called FNX you can get the FNP models on sale), Glocks, S&W M&P series, Springfield XD, Sigs, etc.

General advice is don't experiment with your ammo,holster, pistol belt, rifle magazine pouches out on the 3-gun range. Run everything you can at the range before you play.

I always see guys having gear failures. Don't buy the cheapest piece of crap holster and belt either. I see many expensive pistols and then the guys won't spend a little coin on the gear.

Label your magazines with a paint pen.

Don't be a safety violator. Make sure you understand all the rules before you shoot. Have good trigger discipline and keep your weapon pointed down range at all times.

[Wooly]

I think the point is that if PB does another weapons compendium they should consider doing two things.

The first, find a fan or friend who has some actual gun experience (it doesn't even have to be super vast, but one with a resonable background, could even just be simply ex-military).

Next, KISS principal. As you mentioned, there just is not THAT much difference, on a RPG level between one selective fire 5.56mm gun and the next. YES there are differences, but generally not that vast.

It would be much easier to do the book by the following.

Have caliber catagories for range and damage (maybe have a penetration/anti-AR rating as well).

Something like say 5.56mm "short barrel", 5.56mm "long barrel", 7.62x39mm "short barrel", 7.62x39mm "long barrel", etc.

The range, damage and penetration ability is roughly the same in each catagory. Then if you want, have a list for each catagory as well with the basics for the weapon such as weight, typical magazine capacities (or internal capacity for tube/internal box mag weapons) and rough street price and/or Paramilitary purchaser price (IE an MP5 IIRC is roughly $1,200-1,400 new or so direct from H&K for a Law Enforcement Agency or Military buyer, but for general public, if it was manufacturered before the fire arms control act I think runs in the $8,000-10,000 or so price range for an automatic MP5 if you have the correct license to buy it as a civilian). Oh and rate of fire. Maybe a scentence or two if there is anything notable about it.

So for example

5.56mm "Short Barrel"
Damage: 5d6
Range: 200yds, 300yds with scope
Penetration: +2 to penetrate AR

Mini Ruger 14 (Short barrel version)
Weight: 5.5lbs
Magazine capacity: Avaible 5, 10, 15, 20 and 30 round magazines
Rate of fire: Single shot, Semi-automatic
Cost: $800 typical
Notes: A popular short barrelled rifle. Can use both civilian .223 and military 5.56mm ammunition. A variety of accessories are available and comes with fixed stock, collapsable stock or foldable stock options as well as a front and rear pistol grip options.

AR-15 short barrel
Weight: 6-7lbs
Magazine capacity: Available with 10, 15, 20, 30 round magazines
Rate of fire: Single shot, semi-automatic
Cost: $800 typical
Notes: The AR-15 "chasis" is probably one of the most popular rifle "chasis" sold in the US and around the world. There are a variety of different "uppers" and "lowers" allowing users to easily customize their rifle. Everything from shotgun uppers, to a "regular" .223 or 5.56 upper and even .50 caliber uppers are available. The short barreled version of the AR-15 is most similar cosmetically and functionally to the military M-4 Carbine (with the exception of being semi-automatic).

etc, etc, etc

Anyway, just my example, but if I was going to put together a weapons compendium that is how I'd do it. Restating damage every single time is a waste of space. Range on weapons with similar barrel lengths and calibers is going to be pretty similar and I feel like is only worth mentioning standout exceptions (say, with some "sniper" type weapons, and at that typically requires match grade ammo). No my example was not using actual specifics, just off the top of my head/rough numbers. I'd probably only include inked pictures of maybe 1-3 weapon examples in each catagory, or maybe even just a single example for each catagory. I also wouldn't try to be all inclusive. I'd pick a dozen or so of each common pistol/SMG and rifle caliber and at least one weapon for each

1. Clearly define what exactly constitute short barrels, long barrels etc.

2. You need to state what type of magazine the weapon uses. For example the Ruger Mini-14 (Inaccurate, overpriced in my opinion) uses a proprietary magazine. The NATO standard magazine (STANAG) fits many 5.56mm weapons.

3. Explaining the AR-15 to non gun people is going to require a few pages. You can't just say it has different uppers and lower.

4. I would do optics the same way as the guns. Generic with examples. i.e. Red dot sight (eotech or aimpoint comp M2), dual role (Elcan SpecterDR) fixed magnification (Trijicon ACOG) etc

I am interested in collaborating on such a project if you go forward.

[Pepsi Jedi]

My gripe about weapons compendiums in general is that there is a tendency to treat firearms like magical swords. That is every obsecure prototype is included to make the book interesting. That is fine I just ask that the rarity of such weapons is at least noted in the weapons descripiton.

Really one 16" barreled select fire (or semi-auto) 5.56mm carbine isn't that different from the next as far as the game goes.

Optics and weapons accessories could fill a book on their own.

I think it is very hard for people who are not already shooters who are knowledageable about firearms to write a weapons compendium.

I actively compete in 3-gun matches and IDPA. Former Marine infantryman and police officer. But I know very little about hunting rifles, fancy shotguns, and revolvers.

I've been thinking of getting into 3-gun competition. Still need to pick up a nice rifle. Been looking at the Stag Arms 3G. What do you use?

I started off with:
Colt LE6920 with a Aimpoint Comp M2. Surefire p-mags, This is essentially a civilian legal version of the rifle I carried in Iraq.
Remington 870P with Scattergun technologies ghost ring rifle sights. I like rifle sights for slugs, many people don't use them. Personal preference.
Glock 23 (mid sized .40 S&W)

I now shoot in the Heavy Metal class.
Scar 17s 7.62 x 51mm NATO
Same Remington 870P
FNP-45 .45 ACP

Stag Arms makes fine rifles if you are willing to spend just a little more I would look hard at manufacturers that build to mil-spec. Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniels Defense, Noveske are all top tier builders. Still nothing wrong with Stag Arms. My first AR was a Rock River is it has never failed me.

If you want to be competitive in 3-gun (other than Heavy Metal which requires a pump gun) go ahead and start saving up for a semi auto shotgun now. Don't buy a saiga as the magazines are considered "speed loaders" they are also finicky and sometimes fail to cycle (without tuning) with low brass birdshot loads you will be required to use. For value and performance I would look hard at the Remington 1100 over much more expensive semi auto shotguns like Benellis.

Pistol. Shoot what you are most comfortable with. I am not a 1911 fan boy personally. Any of the big name polymer semi autos in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP will do. FNP (now called FNX you can get the FNP models on sale), Glocks, S&W M&P series, Springfield XD, Sigs, etc.

General advice is don't experiment with your ammo,holster, pistol belt, rifle magazine pouches out on the 3-gun range. Run everything you can at the range before you play.

I always see guys having gear failures. Don't buy the cheapest piece of crap holster and belt either. I see many expensive pistols and then the guys won't spend a little coin on the gear.

Label your magazines with a paint pen.

Don't be a safety violator. Make sure you understand all the rules before you shoot. Have good trigger discipline and keep your weapon pointed down range at all times.

Nice. And thank you.

Currently I have a Springfield XDM .40 and a Mossberg 590A1 with ghost rings sights. I've shot my father's Stag Arms 3G and it feels nice but I do like feel of the Daniels Defense. I think the one I shot was the new V7. I think total base market is about the same as the 3G. I'm poor though so it'll be next tax return or after before I can splurge. I'm hunting for a KelTec KSG too. Just love the look of those. (( 7+7+1 doesn't hurt for a home defense weapon either at 26 inches overall))

[Wooly]

Nice. And thank you.
Currently I have a Springfield XDM .40 and a Mossberg 590A1 with ghost rings sights. I've shot my father's Stag Arms 3G and it feels nice but I do like feel of the Daniels Defense. I think the one I shot was the new V7. I think total base market is about the same as the 3G. I'm poor though so it'll be next tax return or after before I can splurge. I'm hunting for a KelTec KSG too. Just love the look of those. (( 7+7+1 doesn't hurt for a home defense weapon either at 26 inches overall))

I think it is awesome that Kel-tec designs and builds innovative weapons. I also think building firearms using 2 piece plastic frames held together with screws is a bad idea.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Nice. And thank you.
Currently I have a Springfield XDM .40 and a Mossberg 590A1 with ghost rings sights. I've shot my father's Stag Arms 3G and it feels nice but I do like feel of the Daniels Defense. I think the one I shot was the new V7. I think total base market is about the same as the 3G. I'm poor though so it'll be next tax return or after before I can splurge. I'm hunting for a KelTec KSG too. Just love the look of those. (( 7+7+1 doesn't hurt for a home defense weapon either at 26 inches overall))

I think it is awesome that Kel-tec designs and builds innovative weapons. I also think building firearms using 2 piece plastic frames held together with screws is a bad idea.

I read that they fixed that in the production model, along with the pump release and such. Haven't found one to put hands on yet though.