SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

You are on your own. The Army is MIA and our government is gone! There are no communications of any kind. Cities and towns have gone dark, and zombies fill the streets. The dead have risen and it would seem to be the end of the world. Help me, Mommy!

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dargo83
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by dargo83 »

yes it is i loved the episode and was going to do a poll question based on the episode about the .22 rim fire or the .223 would be best
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Rockwolf66 »

the .223/%.56X45mm Round is ballistically superior to the .22 Long Rifle. Much better range, damage, bullet design and accuracy.

Take a 5.56 AR15 and an AR15 in .22 Long Rifle and set them up identically then run them through a field exersize where you have targets out to 300m along a "jungle trail". you will find that the .22 is not the best choice for the zombie apocalypse.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

There's a train of thought/theory that says it's good for the bullet to go INTO a skull, and bounce around, but not come out. That's why some people latch onto the smaller round.

It's seen sometimes in "The genre" WWZ Comes to mind.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Rockwolf66 »

I'm of the school that it's best to destroy as much of the skull as physically possible. While I do know of a man who carried a .22 S&W Revolver while undercover. lets just say that he didn't like the issue Walther PPK and if he ever got caught he didn't want to be found with an issue handgun. Plus he was trained to the level that he could perform a headshot with his issue browning high Power at a dead run. Against an enemy that is immune to blood loss and might require the complete destruction of the brain a .22 is questionable in it's ability to penitrate the skull let alone destroy the brain.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by azazel1024 »

In the WWZ example, the .22 they were using were a special incendiary type round that was pretty much guaranteed to burn out a zombies brain. If you gave me a round like that, I'd rather have the .22LR as you could carry a lot more ammo than .223/5.56x45.

That said, with real world bullets, I'd rather the .223/5.56x45 against zombies as the round is probably a lot more likely to actually kill a zombie than a .22LR is.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

"In Real Life" in a Zombie rise, wouldn't everyone use what ever they could find when ever they could find it? "Preference" Is going to go rapidly by the wayside about... 10minutes into a zombie situation. Even walmart's ammo section can fit into one or two carts. Who can afford to be picky?
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Arnie100 »

azazel1024 wrote:In the WWZ example, the .22 they were using were a special incendiary type round that was pretty much guaranteed to burn out a zombies brain.


Actually, the round they used was the NATO 5.56 "Cherry PIE." Not a .22. (Page 275, paragraph 2)
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Trooper Jim »

Arnie100 wrote:
azazel1024 wrote:In the WWZ example, the .22 they were using were a special incendiary type round that was pretty much guaranteed to burn out a zombies brain.


Actually, the round they used was the NATO 5.56 "Cherry PIE." Not a .22. (Page 275, paragraph 2)

This!
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Severus Snape »

dargo83 wrote:yes it is i loved the episode and was going to do a poll question based on the episode about the .22 rim fire or the .223 would be best

The .22 rim fire is NOT a good choice for ammo. You need a weapon that can fire the ammo (as opposed to the traditional firing pin, the weapon needs to strike the rim and not the center of the casing), and rim fire ammo is not all that common. I'd rather a dull spoon than the rim fire. Why? Because I can find more dull spoons.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Rockwolf66 »

Severus Snape wrote:
dargo83 wrote:yes it is i loved the episode and was going to do a poll question based on the episode about the .22 rim fire or the .223 would be best

The .22 rim fire is NOT a good choice for ammo. You need a weapon that can fire the ammo (as opposed to the traditional firing pin, the weapon needs to strike the rim and not the center of the casing), and rim fire ammo is not all that common. I'd rather a dull spoon than the rim fire. Why? Because I can find more dull spoons.

Dude,
The .22 "Rimfire" round they are talking about is thew .22 Long rifle wich is one of the most popular and common round in the world. There are hundreds of thousands of weapons that fire the round and they are found everywhere that there are rifles. I personally have over 1,000 rounds of the stuff sitting on a nearby shelf and I can get thousands more at any place that sells ammo.

What did you think they were talking about?
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Gamer »

I'd stick with a 5.56 chambered weapon, you can fire both 5.56 and .223 from them but not all .223 chambered weapons can fire 5.56 safely.

.22 as a perfect weapon? Pffffft, it doesn't even make a good defense weapon against the living and with zombies it would only be much worse.

That show was as stupid as it was predictable.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Trooper Jim »

Gamer wrote:I'd stick with a 5.56 chambered weapon, you can fire both 5.56 and .223 from them but not all .223 chambered weapons can fire 5.56 safely.

.22 as a perfect weapon? Pffffft, it doesn't even make a good defense weapon against the living and with zombies it would only be much worse.

That show was as stupid as it was predictable.


The. 22 is great for plinking but a serious combat round, it lacks. I know that at least 2 firearms manufacturers have toyed with a 22 SMG. But none of these were put in full production just for that reason. IRC

I do agree that the 5.56mm make a great Zombie killing round especially in an AR or M-16 based platform. Optimally you will want to use a quality optic like an ACOG, Aimpoint or EOTECH, but these are necessary. The only major downside to that rife is the gas impingement system it uses. If you don't stay on top of cleaning it, it will fail. But this can be mitigated by using a piston based rifle, like Sig 556 or the Robinson XCR. Both of these rifle are very high quality and are available in 5.56 / .223. Along with that both of these weapons utilize the standard M16 magazine. I would have no problem carrying any of these weapons into battle.

Something I would love to see would be a more modern version of the old .30 cal M1 carbine. I think this would make an awesome ZK rifle. IMHO :)
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by azazel1024 »

.22 as a serious combat round or self defense round, .22LR does not make. That said, it is perfectly capable of killing a person. It is perfectly capable of penetrating through major organs or through and through. Compared to a .223, the energy levels, wound channel, hydrostatic shock, etc are significantly lower, but it is quite capable of killing a person still.

For a more modern .30 M1 carbine, just look at the Mini Rugger 14. It is chambered for .223 and CAN accept military 5.56mm ammo. It is about the same size and weight as an M1 carbine, but it has gobs of accessories and mods out there. A wonderful ranch rifle.

The M1 .30 isn't much better than a .22LR. Somewhat higher energy, but the rounds are short and relatively low velocity (I think about 75% of the weight of a .30-30 and lower velocity, ~600m/sec). Plenty of cases in Vietnam and WWII where at distances of 200yds or more the .30 M1 carbine failed to penetrate heavy winter clothing soldiers were wearing, where the .30-06 of the M1 Garand and BAR were tearing double thumb sized holes out the back of similarly clothed soldiers and hitting the guys behind them if so arranged. The .30 M1 carbine isn't a horrible weapon, but it is pretty much a semi-automatic SMG in terms of performance.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Gamer »

Trooper Jim wrote:
Gamer wrote:I'd stick with a 5.56 chambered weapon, you can fire both 5.56 and .223 from them but not all .223 chambered weapons can fire 5.56 safely.

.22 as a perfect weapon? Pffffft, it doesn't even make a good defense weapon against the living and with zombies it would only be much worse.

That show was as stupid as it was predictable.


The. 22 is great for plinking but a serious combat round, it lacks. I know that at least 2 firearms manufacturers have toyed with a 22 SMG. But none of these were put in full production just for that reason. IRC

I do agree that the 5.56mm make a great Zombie killing round especially in an AR or M-16 based platform. Optimally you will want to use a quality optic like an ACOG, Aimpoint or EOTECH, but these are necessary. The only major downside to that rife is the gas impingement system it uses. If you don't stay on top of cleaning it, it will fail. But this can be mitigated by using a piston based rifle, like Sig 556 or the Robinson XCR. Both of these rifle are very high quality and are available in 5.56 / .223. Along with that both of these weapons utilize the standard M16 magazine. I would have no problem carrying any of these weapons into battle.

Something I would love to see would be a more modern version of the old .30 cal M1 carbine. I think this would make an awesome ZK rifle. IMHO :)

I'll keep my ACOG TA01NSN 4X thanks, the Eos need batteries but still a very good sight, but I'd rather keep the batteries for the TWS it's worth it more and the red dot with the Eos can be a pain in the ass at distance especially at night.
I'll stick with my M4 as it never once failed me in Iraq or Afghanistan and all modern weapons will fail you if you don't maintain it.
Plus with the sheer number AR-15s out there I won't have to worry on finding parts. ever.


The .30 carbine was never meant to engage targets beyond 200 yds, that's been the shooters fault for not knowing their weapon and expecting it to have the same effectiveness as the rest of the rifle .30, as mentioned it is basically a smg round but at 200 yds the round never failed to penetrate.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Very true...but an issue run in to is often you need to make demands of your weapons and tools for things they weren't designed for. As a tankers weapon in WWII and Korea, the M1 carbine was just fine. However, it got issued to a lot of support personnel and officers. When you are in a situation where the enemy is 250 yds away...well then you are holding a weapon that can't really engage the enemy.

There are always compromises, but at least if you have to look at modern weapon options, I wouldn't normally consider an M1 carbine as a good one. There are worse, but engage ranges are fairly limited, as is stopping power and penetration.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Arnie100 »

azazel1024 wrote:Very true...but an issue run in to is often you need to make demands of your weapons and tools for things they weren't designed for. As a tankers weapon in WWII and Korea, the M1 carbine was just fine. However, it got issued to a lot of support personnel and officers. When you are in a situation where the enemy is 250 yds away...well then you are holding a weapon that can't really engage the enemy.

There are always compromises, but at least if you have to look at modern weapon options, I wouldn't normally consider an M1 carbine as a good one. There are worse, but engage ranges are fairly limited, as is stopping power and penetration.


REALLY??

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _74033105/

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri= ... jy6FRWOmhc

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri= ... QHjuMvtIbw

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri= ... OMNpf-QUVk

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri= ... OMNpf-QUVk

I would be perfectly happy with an M1 or an M2 Carbine (selective fire version) or even an M1A1 Carbine.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Really yourself.

The first article is badly flawed.

Just compare the M1 carbine to the mini ruger 14.

M1 muzzle energy, a little less than 1,200j. Mini ruger 14 muzzle energy firing 5.56mm is about 1,900j with the target rifle (22in barrel) or about 1,700j with the standard/ranch rifle configuration (18in barrel). That isn't, really close, that is about 50% more energy.

At moderate distances that difference is a hell of a lot more as a .223/5.56 is significantly more aerodynamic. At 150yds as your article mentioned it being nearly as good as a .223/5.56 rifle as being, it has more like half the energy. The 5.56 also tends to tumble upon impact once it penetrates a couple of inches, so the wound cavity in a human or animal is massive in comparison to a .30 which travels pretty much normally and only deforms slightly (unless using JHP or HP ammo, which would reduce the aerodynamic efficiency even more unless you pay for really expensive ballistic tip JHP, which I don't know if that is available in .30 carbine, though I am sure someone makes it).

The M1 carbine is about 5.5lbs versus the 6.5lbs of the Mini 14. Not that much weight difference. The .223/5.56 round is probably the world's second most common rifle round behind the 7.62x39 if you look at total number of rounds (civilian and military) and the .223 is probably in the top 3 most common civilian rifle rounds. I am going to go out on a limb and say .30 carbine is probably one of the least common calibres.

The article talks about how an FMJ .30 carbine will "drill right through car bodies". Guess what, a .22LR will drill right through a car door also so long as it doesn't hit the door frame (and that frame will stop a .30 carbine, probably a .223/5.56 and probably even a 7.62x51mm though probably not M1 AP .30-06 ammo).

The article also talks about how an M1 carbine is half or a third the price of an AR15. Well, looking around it looks like the average M1 carbine cost right now is $650. The average ruger mini 14 cost is $680. A note, it looks like the average AR15 style rifle is about $1,000, but plenty are in the $600-700 range as well.

About the only "real" advantage that an M1 carbine has is that it is slightly lighter and its recoil is somewhat lighter, so especially for a weaker or slighter framed person the recoil would be easier to handle, but frankly the recoil on a .223/5.56 even in something as light as a mini 14 isn't that bad.

An M1 carbine is a GREAT weapon for close quarters or short range combat or self defense (because frankly in self defense situations your engagement ranges are probably on the order of a few feet to maybe a couple of dozen yards). At anything beyond that it is easily eclipsed by other carbines chambered in a more powerful (and more common) round.

All that "negative" about the M1, but honestly for personal reasons if/when I get a rifle I am actually strongly considering getting the M1. For personal defense I don't need anything all that powerful and it is great in that it'll give me longer reach than a pistol and has decent stopping power at closer ranges that I might ever care about. However, I am also well aware that it is NOT as good a weapon as something like the Mini 14.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Rockwolf66 »

azazel1024 wrote:Really yourself.

The article talks about how an FMJ .30 carbine will "drill right through car bodies". Guess what, a .22LR will drill right through a car door also so long as it doesn't hit the door frame (and that frame will stop a .30 carbine, probably a .223/5.56 and probably even a 7.62x51mm though probably not M1 AP .30-06 ammo).


Buick of Truth

Well 5.56mm will punch right through a car door and dimple the door on another side. 7.62X51mm NATO will punch through a car sideways.

As far as the frame goes I have a friend who had his knee destroyed when a round from an automatic weapon bounced off the doorframe of the jeep they were in. Bullets do funny things, I've seen a 5.56mm round crater steel plate that I can bounce .44 magnum off all day without damage.

Really the Ruger Mini-14 is a much better choice than the M1 Carbine. Much more you can do with one.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Yeah, I saw that one too. I love the box o' truth website. So much fun to see the pictures and videos :D

One thing to semi-keep in mind is not all car doors are made the same. Modern ones have some sound deadening in them (which isn't going to provide much deterent to bullets) and the sheet metal tends to be thinner because modern sheet metal manufacturing techniques are better at forming both complex shapes and require less thickness. An old 70's or 80's car door is likely to have somewhat thicker sheet metal than a 90's or 00's car door.

Door frames are pretty thick, but as you mentioned, doesn't mean the bullet will hit dead center and be stopped/destroyed. IIRC most door frames are on the order of 3/64 stamped steel all the way up to about 1/8" tubular steel depending on the design. Car sheet metal tends to be around 1/64 to 2/64 of an inch thick steel or aluminum.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Trooper Jim »

Rockwolf66 wrote:
azazel1024 wrote:Really yourself.

The article talks about how an FMJ .30 carbine will "drill right through car bodies". Guess what, a .22LR will drill right through a car door also so long as it doesn't hit the door frame (and that frame will stop a .30 carbine, probably a .223/5.56 and probably even a 7.62x51mm though probably not M1 AP .30-06 ammo).


Buick of Truth

Well 5.56mm will punch right through a car door and dimple the door on another side. 7.62X51mm NATO will punch through a car sideways.

As far as the frame goes I have a friend who had his knee destroyed when a round from an automatic weapon bounced off the doorframe of the jeep they were in. Bullets do funny things, I've seen a 5.56mm round crater steel plate that I can bounce .44 magnum off all day without damage.

Really the Ruger Mini-14 is a much better choice than the M1 Carbine. Much more you can do with one.


I love that site, lots of good info there. As for the Mini 14, i know there was some quality issues with them for a while. But I read that the fixed those. I really like the look of the Mini 14 and the AC556. And the 556/223 is a great general purpose round. So I would have no issue with a quality weapon in this caliber.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Severus Snape »

I was able to download the episode on DirecTV OnDemand, and...

bleh.

All I kept thinking of the whole time was that Discovery had to have called Brooks and Red Jacket and make them do this episode. Will has given no indication of being into killing zombies or anything like that prior to this episode, and his enthusiasm seemed forced. And, of course, Chris is going to suck up to Will and think that if Will likes it, he likes it. (Side note - his marriage to Steph is bogus in my eyes. Married the bosses daughter to get ahead. Pffft.)

Anyhow, the weapons they made were both decent. I do like the .22 rimfire with the bull-pup configuration, but they could have done the spike on that thing better. You could see where it was going into the head of the "zombie" but not wanting to release to come out.

The M16 select fire with the bayonet and 37 mm grenade launcher was bad-ass. I love me some grenades, and that thing rocked. If I had the money, I would call up Red Jacket and ask them how much it would cost me to have them make one and ship it to a firearms dealer for me here in Vegas.

Overall, the weapons were cool, but it was a set-up. Which is one of the things I hate about these shows - they start out being real, and when enough people get interested the executives start organizing story-lines. And that takes the fun out of the show.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Well the thing is, they have an entire other building with 95% of their production in it. What you see on TV is kinda a "Show room floor" Side of their business. Most of their guns nad gunsmiths aren't on the show. It's just the sort of 'flagship and custom' stuff that gets shown.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

frogboy wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Well the thing is, they have an entire other building with 95% of their production in it. What you see on TV is kinda a "Show room floor" Side of their business. Most of their guns nad gunsmiths aren't on the show. It's just the sort of 'flagship and custom' stuff that gets shown.


Yeah, that and they are most likely swamped with stuff that pays better then old Russian and Japanese bolt rifles. Its understandable, but a bummer nonetheless. I dont hold it against them. I would do it to. Just not some of the weird stuff like the fold up flashlight gun.


They make good.. good... goooood money on those AK47s. lol. But yeah the 'Crazy stuff' is done for TV, while that other building pays for their homes and cars and allows them to DO the crazy stuff on tv.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by say652 »

with all the mods availible for the ruger 1022 it would be a great civilian weapon added in with the fact anybody is capable of carrying hundreds of rounds makes it a good reliable weapon. that being said the mini14(also ruger) was a great weapon but i noticed after firing around 50 rounds the gun gets hot after a 100 rounds its real real hot. the 1022 seemed able to put more rounds down range with less of a heat problem. more bullets equal more of a chance of hitting your target. and with the gatling gun mod avaible at cabelas for the 1022 hehehe you really dont need the punch of a 223 round if your throwing 22 bullets in bursts of five to fifty at your target.
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Re: SONS OF THE GUNS AND ZOMBIES

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

say652 wrote:with all the mods availible for the ruger 1022 it would be a great civilian weapon added in with the fact anybody is capable of carrying hundreds of rounds makes it a good reliable weapon. that being said the mini14(also ruger) was a great weapon but i noticed after firing around 50 rounds the gun gets hot after a 100 rounds its real real hot. the 1022 seemed able to put more rounds down range with less of a heat problem. more bullets equal more of a chance of hitting your target. and with the gatling gun mod avaible at cabelas for the 1022 hehehe you really dont need the punch of a 223 round if your throwing 22 bullets in bursts of five to fifty at your target.


If you're throwing 50 at your target you're wasting ammo.

While I'm not a sniper by any stretch, I can hit a head sized target with one round quite well. :) (( Granted I've never had zombies trying to eat my face when I'm doing it.... I'm jus' sayin'))
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