City sized safe havens and safe haven networks....

You are on your own. The Army is MIA and our government is gone! There are no communications of any kind. Cities and towns have gone dark, and zombies fill the streets. The dead have risen and it would seem to be the end of the world. Help me, Mommy!

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Zer0 Kay
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Re: City sized safe havens and safe haven networks....

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
So what your basing this off of Wolfe?
no i'm basing off research i did during that thread to figure out of wolfe's statement about constant monitoring was right. long story short? he was, more or less. the atomic clocks on the sats are so sensetive to relativistic effects that even orbital velocities mess them up enough to ruin the positioniong ability, and without regular (read, roughly every day) synchronization of their clocks to a non-orbtial one, and updated orbital data uploads, they cease to be useful as a navigation tool.

the ability to plot locations is based on the time signals and orbital data from the sats..and even minor discrepiancies can generate huge errors due to the nature of the calculations.

You realize that there are thousands of ways I can think of to automate that, so if a Radar Maintainer can do that I think the network, satellite and radio engineers could do that too and better. :)
I mean come on the guy refers to NORAD as a location!!! Should tip you off that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Why would SDI sats kill each other off? If multiple nations get SDI sats up... they're usually programmed to shoot down nukes... as we can tell they didn't do a very good job.


please note which forum that comes from. Chaos Earth. a setting where NORAD is a hyper advanced command and communications facilty and headquarters of NEMA, and (as shown directly in MiO), orbtial kill sats were programmed to shoot down anything in orbit, not just ballistic missiles. (given that the S, Russia, and china in real life are all working on ASAT tech to shoot down each others sats should a war go hot...not all that impluasible.)

oh, and btw, in chaos earth there were no exchanges of nuclear missiles between the world powers. the only canon nuke exchange was between two south american nations..neither of which appear to have even had space programs much less SDI programs.

Ugh, should have known that in canon PB got something wrong compared to real world... again. :( Hmm wonder how they delivered the nukes without the other nations (superpowers) knocking them out of orbit... unless they were cruise missiles.
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azazel1024
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Re: City sized safe havens and safe haven networks....

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Could have been "hand delivered" nuclear bombs, nuclear artillery rounds, nuclear shoulder launched missiles (see "Davy Crockett" missiles), nuclear cruise missiles, SRBMs, any number of ways.

For the positioning, GPS would still be pretty accurate for awhile. The clocks do need frequent updates, but the drift is minor if they aren't updated. Now I don't know how fault tolerant most receivers are, and it probably varies greatly, but from a math perspective, a single days non-synch in signals shouldn't result in much more than a couple of feet of error. Sure, over time that can be a lot, but even after a few months you aren't looking at even a mile's worth of circular error, probably less than 200yds. A few years would likely introduce errors on the scale of a mile plus.

I wouldn't want to use GPS for guided weapons delivery, but still plenty fine to give you a rough fix. Of course if the receivers aren't error tolerant they are going to see conflicting time signals from the various different satellites and just wig out instead of giving a rough fix or even just an exact fix that was inaccurate.

Maybe you could reactivate the old LORAN system that they just shut down. Or for that matter you could construct a localized LORAN system. Wouldn't be too difficult to do (locally) and with decent receivers and algorithms/processing you should be able to nail down your position to within a good 100ft or so (less accurate the further you are from the radio emitters that you are triangulating).
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Re: City sized safe havens and safe haven networks....

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Ugh, should have known that in canon PB got something wrong compared to real world... again. :( Hmm wonder how they delivered the nukes without the other nations (superpowers) knocking them out of orbit... unless they were cruise missiles.
[/quote]
can think of a couple of things. nukes carries by planes. nukes on short ranged ballistic missiles. nuclear howitzers. etc. the two nations were supposed to be neighbors, so odds are the nukes never even breached atmosphere, much less reached orbit.
plus the SDI nets were set up by the major powers (US, russa, etc) for the 2nd cold war. they may not have programmed something like a regional exchange in as something to stop. certainly there is no canon to indicate the exchange threatened any of the major powers, which would have drawn an automated response for sure. the assumption that the nets started shooting each other once their ground controllers stopped responding is a combination of "worst case scenario" response and the idea that once the two nations launched the whole world goes to defcon 2 just in case it sparks ww3.


azazel1024 wrote:For the positioning, GPS would still be pretty accurate for awhile. The clocks do need frequent updates, but the drift is minor if they aren't updated. Now I don't know how fault tolerant most receivers are, and it probably varies greatly, but from a math perspective, a single days non-synch in signals shouldn't result in much more than a couple of feet of error. Sure, over time that can be a lot, but even after a few months you aren't looking at even a mile's worth of circular error, probably less than 200yds. A few years would likely introduce errors on the scale of a mile plus.


clocks and orbtial empheris. the latter is the information on "where" the sattelite is that the receiver uses to figure out the distance to the sat. the actual orbit tends to get altered slightly due to gravitational iregularities due to differing densities and the earths slightly non-spherical shape, so if the orbital data on "where" the sat is isn't updated regulalry, you get errors too. individually the errors would be fairly small, but together they get pretty big pretty fast.
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Zer0 Kay
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Re: City sized safe havens and safe haven networks....

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

azazel1024 wrote:Could have been "hand delivered" nuclear bombs, nuclear artillery rounds, nuclear shoulder launched missiles (see "Davy Crockett" missiles), nuclear cruise missiles, SRBMs, any number of ways.

For the positioning, GPS would still be pretty accurate for awhile. The clocks do need frequent updates, but the drift is minor if they aren't updated. Now I don't know how fault tolerant most receivers are, and it probably varies greatly, but from a math perspective, a single days non-synch in signals shouldn't result in much more than a couple of feet of error. Sure, over time that can be a lot, but even after a few months you aren't looking at even a mile's worth of circular error, probably less than 200yds. A few years would likely introduce errors on the scale of a mile plus.

I wouldn't want to use GPS for guided weapons delivery, but still plenty fine to give you a rough fix. Of course if the receivers aren't error tolerant they are going to see conflicting time signals from the various different satellites and just wig out instead of giving a rough fix or even just an exact fix that was inaccurate.

Maybe you could reactivate the old LORAN system that they just shut down. Or for that matter you could construct a localized LORAN system. Wouldn't be too difficult to do (locally) and with decent receivers and algorithms/processing you should be able to nail down your position to within a good 100ft or so (less accurate the further you are from the radio emitters that you are triangulating).


OR just use the existing cellphone net that some phones use that have faux GPS. Basically triangulating the location of the cellphone. Wonder what the power requirements are for a cell relay...
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Re: City sized safe havens and safe haven networks....

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Not much, they can be solar powered. Not a small panel, but you can power it off solar. You could probably find it using google fu, but my google fu is taking a break today.

If I were to guesstimate, I'd say in the 400-1,500w range to operate a cell receiver/tower/relay. Still have to network those tower together, but you could use an alternative wireless technology to do this if you wanted to.
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Zer0 Kay
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Re: City sized safe havens and safe haven networks....

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

azazel1024 wrote:Not much, they can be solar powered. Not a small panel, but you can power it off solar. You could probably find it using google fu, but my google fu is taking a break today.

If I were to guesstimate, I'd say in the 400-1,500w range to operate a cell receiver/tower/relay. Still have to network those tower together, but you could use an alternative wireless technology to do this if you wanted to.


So then instead of using expensive assets and human lives you could place a massive cell network with major redundancies each tower would have motion trackers which are also hooked into the network so that a station back in the haven can monitor traffic and see if any is moving toward the city. If a tower goes down it is treated as an incursion NEVER as a "simple maintenance issue, just send out the maintainers" deal. Always, ALWAYS treat the loss of any tower as an attack and send out two attack choppers the modified chinook gunship (the gunship part would be the modification) with the maintainers and a full replacement tower and other needed equipment. Paranoia is the savior of the survivor. If the towers start going out in an orderly fashion you mobilize more assets and put everyone on battle stations.
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