Questions for Wayne Breaux Jr.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Since Wayne posts in between his freelance projects, we might as well make a topic for him too. Please be patient in waiting for answers.

I'll start off with some non-rule questions Wayne has answered (rule-related answers can be found at this link):

Question: I've seen references in some of my issues of the Rifter and other Palladium products to something called "The Nursery." Is this a book that has yet to see the light of day and if so what is it about?

Answer: "The Nursery" is where the government sends its super soldier experiments that aren't quite fit for public exposure for whatever reason. It could be something as small as odd colored skin or as dangerous as an unstable power or psychotic mind state. The sourcebook, which is still in the works, centers around the calamity that would result should those failed experiments manage to get loose and how things might be set right again (with a healthy dose of help from the player characters).

Question: I'm curious Wayne, how much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Answer: 1D6+1 units for unskilled 'chucks, but taking 2 slots for a 'chucking skill would allow a 20%+5% per level chance for an increased rate of 1D6+1D4 units per level of experience. 'Chucking could be maintained for a number of melee rounds equal to the 'chuck's P.E. attribute+1 round per level of experience.

Quote: Alright, I finally purchased AUGG over the weekend (recently stumbled upon a local game store that carried Palladium stuff), and even though I have only barely scratched the surface I've been pretty pleased with what I've seen so far.

While I was looking over it, a few questions popped into my head and I thought I'd ask:

1.) As an artist, how does it make you feel to see other artists like Michael Wilson and Freddie Williams take character designs of yours and run with them (such as the 4-armed Axolotl and the Felias info broker)?

1a.) How much guidance/direction did you as the writer give these artists along the way?

2.) In playtesting the spaceship creation rules, what's been the best overall spaceship you've built/seen someone else build?

3.) When going to FTL speed during play, do you sometimes forget yourself and say "Go to warp factor ___..."?

Answer: 1) I love seeing what other guys do with my ideas since one of my favorite art assignments is getting to do my own version of someone else's ideas. Just seeing the design done in another person's style gives me new insight into my own design because I can see what other people thought certain aspects of it were. And foremost, I subscribe to the theory that immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Many times the artists are given their choice of things to draw, and if they pick one of my designs out of a book full of others, it says something to me. They were most likely impressed by it (...or they thought is sucked bad enough to need reworking. ).

1a) In most cases, Palladium's artists work from established designs or straight from the manuscript descriptions, so the author's influence is usually limited, but for specific projects design sketches may accompany the manuscript if an artist has already done some work to set the feel for that section or the book. This was the case for all the Robotech books (duh) as well as for the new armor for the COalition in the War Campaign book. It will also be the case with the Atorians since I have specific perceptions of their appearance, thus all the artists will get drawings or sketches of the different clans as well as the major war machines of the Empire.

2) Uhh...can't say really. I haven't had the time to run or play in a galactic campaign since play testing the AUGG rules and that was done with a small, 300 ton ship intended to be upgraded as the game progressed. The only thing I can say in that respect was that the hardware character that owned/built the ship decided to be a canis and as per the AU description for that race, the ship got a 30% speed bonus. I thought that was a nice little observation on his part.

3) No, no. It's usually something closer to 'Get us the hell outta here!' or 'Hang onto your aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!'.

Question: I was curious as to when the Heroes Unlimited Guide to Imperial Space was due out. I was flicking through Galaxy Unlimited today and read several references to it. Any news about if it's being worked on or has been shelved for the time being or permanently?

Answer: It is at the editors and I am working diligently on the art. It should be out in about 2 months.

[Just to clarify, while Wayne's work on the project will be done, the book unfortunately won't come out that soon. We hope to have it out by the end of Summer 2005. -- Wayne Smith]

[MADMANMIKE]

Did anyone actually visualize the area when putting the numbers in the book???

No, they most obviously did not. The modules were supposed to be an arbitrary system of measure to build generic spacecraft. They were NEVER intended to be directly proportional to any kind of actual measurement since they basically combined actual physical dimensions with over all sub-systems, and a number of non-physical factors to give a numerical impact on the overal structural capacity of the craft. I built the whole system around this concept, then someone during editing decided it would be a good idea or possibly a necessary thing, and tagged dimensions onto the module. This simply, as you have observed, does not work within a system designe to be flexible and to be far from nailed down into specific details. I hope to do something about that little miscommunication in a future revision.

..Well, that begs the question then; how would you assign dimensions to a cargo hold if not in the manner depicted. For me, space games are all about the commerce; whether it be piracy, corporate cargo hauling or freelance traders, the cargo hold is the core of the ship.

..With the rules as is (admittedly not of your original intent/design), to give a ship the details you want for a player character's amenities/coolness factors, you are left with very little room for cargo....

..The Originating thread, "Problem Using AUGG Ship Building Rules"

-Mike >8]

[MADMANMIKE]

Exactly.

I used GURPS's Far Trader to rework most of the ships and create others. My very rough estimate, if I remember correctly was 1 "module" in AU was equal to about 3 cubic feet (or cubic meters, I forget).

..125 cubic feet, which is a cube 5 feet on a side. I leave it that way for the cargo space, but everything else kinda bites then, for example, standard crew quarters being .3 modules....

-Mike >8]

[Wayne_Breaux]

I thought I saw you post that a psi-sword damages an Invulnerable character. Ok I can live with that. Normally physical manifestations of mystic energy (like turning PPE into a lightning bolt or firebolt) the item is no longer considered "mystic" or "magic" but a physical phenom.

Obviously this isn't the case with psionics.

No, it is the case with psionics as well. A TK push or punch may knock an invulnerable character down, but they will not do any damage. They are simply a physical effect created through psionic means, just like the magical effects you noted. The psi-sword is special, it is a focused manifestation of the psionic's power. As the description on page 313 notes, "This is not a 'normal' weapon". All the controversy is unecessary since that same description, one sentence earlier, notes that the psi-sword will damage creatures that are 'impervious to normal weapons.' As per the description given in HU2, the psi-sword most obviously will damage invulnerable characters who are immune to normal weapons.

[Wayne_Breaux]

..Well, that begs the question then; how would you assign dimensions to a cargo hold if not in the manner depicted. For me, space games are all about the commerce; whether it be piracy, corporate cargo hauling or freelance traders, the cargo hold is the core of the ship.

..With the rules as is (admittedly not of your original intent/design), to give a ship the details you want for a player character's amenities/coolness factors, you are left with very little room for cargo....

..The Originating thread, "Problem Using AUGG Ship Building Rules"

-Mike >8]

There are supposed to be cargo bays with specific tonnage/area capacities per purchase...but I had trouble finding them skimming through the construction section. Modules were intended to be ambiguous, but specific systems within the accessories had their dimensions defined.

Can someone scour the spacecraft construction rules and let me know if the cargo holds have been left out? The external bays are still there, but I missed the internal ones.

[Wayne_Breaux]

I was slightly disappointed to see the spell Mystic Illusion had been dropped in HU2e (it was in Revised) -- and I didn't see it in the HUGMG either.

Any non-official answers on spell level and PPE for those of us that want to include it in HU2e or Rifts ?

I believe the 8th level spell Hallucination given in the HUGMG is the closest thing in second edition, but I would have to dig out HU1 to double check the description of Mystic Illusion. If I get the chance to do that I will get back to you. I made an attempt in organizing the spells for the HUGMG to include equivalents of all the HU1 spells to ease conversions, so if I didn't make up a 'Mystic Illusion' spell, then I must have found something close enough to leave it out.

[MADMANMIKE]

..That's the thing, Wayne. In the final print, there are only two references to dimensions at all; 1): the tonnage equals the length of the ship, and 2): remaining modules can be used as cargo space at 125 cubic feet per module.

..There is a section about Launch bays, stating that they equal 1 module per ton regardless of the number of modules per ton your ship class gets, and refers to the 125 cubic feet rule, but nothing on cargo.

-Mike <8[

[Wayne_Breaux]

..That's the thing, Wayne. In the final print, there are only two references to dimensions at all; 1): the tonnage equals the length of the ship, and 2): remaining modules can be used as cargo space at 125 cubic feet per module.

..There is a section about Launch bays, stating that they equal 1 module per ton regardless of the number of modules per ton your ship class gets, and refers to the 125 cubic feet rule, but nothing on cargo.

-Mike <8[

*sigh* At times like this I hate having to be professional and long to rant or point fingers . . . . but I can't. I'll add it to the list of fixes and one day the book will get edited into its proper form. For the time being I will see if I can find the time to dig up my original manuscript and find the dimensions for the cargo holds.

[Wayne_Breaux]

I thought I saw you post that a psi-sword damages an Invulnerable character. Ok I can live with that. Normally physical manifestations of mystic energy (like turning PPE into a lightning bolt or firebolt) the item is no longer considered "mystic" or "magic" but a physical phenom.

Obviously this isn't the case with psionics.

No, it is the case with psionics as well. A TK push or punch may knock an invulnerable character down, but they will not do any damage. They are simply a physical effect created through psionic means, just like the magical effects you noted. The psi-sword is special, it is a focused manifestation of the psionic's power. As the description on page 313 notes, "This is not a 'normal' weapon". All the controversy is unecessary since that same description, one sentence earlier, notes that the psi-sword will damage creatures that are 'impervious to normal weapons.' As per the description given in HU2, the psi-sword most obviously will damage invulnerable characters who are immune to normal weapons.

I really hate to keep bringing this up, or sound like I'm still arguing about it, but I want to make sure this is completely clarified in my mind (and my games).

It doesn't make sense to me that a psi-sword, a weapon which is created by psionic power to do physical damage, is so different than any other psionic power. I don't see where it's really all that different than a TK punch, personally. However, I'm willing to go with it.

The question is simply this: What other powers work the same way? Obviously, the invulnerable character, other abilities aside, must roll vs pisonics for powers that attack his mind, but this leaves out things like Ectoplasm and Mind Bolt, both of which are not TK, but are physical effects, like the psi-sword.

In other words, do any other psionic powers have physical effects that would damage an invulnerable character, or is psi-sword the lone exception?

Actually, mind bolt is a bolt of mental damage and would thus affect an invulnerable person. It's really not that hard. Non-physical and supernatural effects, unless specifically noted, will usually affect an invulnerable character. The psi-sword is pure psionic energy (not a normal weapon despite its capacity to do physical damage) and mind bolt is mental damage. Both descriptions state those two points specifically, thus they will affect invulnerable characters as per the invulnerability description.

[MADMANMIKE]

I don't see where it's really all that different than a TK punch, personally.

..Pick up a ball and drop it on a bathroom scale. How many pounds registered before it recovered? That's a punch.

..Now take the same ball and press it down on the scale. How many pounds register this time? That's a TK punch. No special mental "force" is surrounding the fist or impacting the target, the mind is amplifying the force of the fist and projecting it

.. If it were mental force like the other powers, it wouldn't be a variation on punch/kick damage and wouldn't have a chance of doing damage to you, it would just be a force/mind bolt.

-Mike >8]

[MADMANMIKE]

I don't see where it's really all that different than a TK punch, personally.

..Pick up a ball and drop it on a bathroom scale. How many pounds registered before it recovered? That's a punch.

..Now take the same ball and press it down on the scale. How many pounds register this time? That's a TK punch. No special mental "force" is surrounding the fist or impacting the target, the mind is amplifying the force of the fist and projecting it

.. If it were mental force like the other powers, it wouldn't be a variation on punch/kick damage and wouldn't have a chance of doing damage to you, it would just be a force/mind bolt.

-Mike >8]

So the TK Punch is the mind doing physical damage, where a Mind Bolt is... the mind doing physical damage.

Thanks for clarifying that difference!

Hate to break it to you, but it's the same blasted thing. It's just a case of "It's different because... um... well, because we said so."

Frankly, I don't actually have a problem with that. I just like it to be admitted when that's the case, especially in the face of poor wording that causes confusion about the 'difference.'

..Well, no wonder you have problems interpreting the rules, you don't read what's right in front of you....

..Try reading it again;

No special mental "force" is surrounding the fist or impacting the target, the mind is amplifying the force of the fist and projecting it

..How is that hard to understand? The TK punch is the mind focusing the damage of the fist, not the mind doing damage. You post as though you don't want the explanation, because you believe you are right and the rules /setting are wrong. This makes your post nothing more than a jab in the ribs of anyone who doesn't agree with you (read= the majority)...

..So why bother posting at all?

-Mike >8]

[Sentinel]

..Well, no wonder you have problems interpreting the rules, you don't read what's right in front of you....

..Try reading it again;

No special mental "force" is surrounding the fist or impacting the target, the mind is amplifying the force of the fist and projecting it

..How is that hard to understand? The TK punch is the mind focusing the damage of the fist, not the mind doing damage.

So now there's a difference between the mind amplifying damage and the mind just doing damage outright... wow, I didn't think this could get any better.
Guess what? It has a range. It's a mental power. It's the mind doing damage. Yes, it's based on an actual physical assault, but when it comes down to it, you wouldn't need ISP if it wasn't the mind doing the work. I'm not even going into the insanity inherent in your quoting of yourself in order to back up your statements.

You post as though you don't want the explanation, because you believe you are right and the rules /setting are wrong.

No, I post as if I want rules that make sense, and not a different way to work every single power/ source of damage. I want well-thought out, logical explanations of any discrepencies in said rules.

This makes your post nothing more than a jab in the ribs of anyone who doesn't agree with you (read= the majority)...

..So why bother posting at all?

The funny part about this is that I said quite clearly, in the post that you chose to start this dabate, that I was willing to go along with the train of thought, even though it makes little sense to me.

Apparently, in a public forum, I am not allowed to voice any unhappiness with the rules or the way they are interpreted, even if I then go along with said rules anyway. My apologies for offending your sensibilities with my intelligent questioning. I will try to refrain from such in the future, limiting my posts to mindless praises of the establishment that reflect the thoughts that everyone here should have.

Whiz, think of TK punch in these terms: your mind propels (not surrounds, just propels) your fist towards the target at incredible speed and with terrific force. That's why you need to make a save against injuring yourself if you miss, something you don't have to do with with Chi, Tamashiwara (both martial arts powers) or with any form of super strength, nor with power channeling.
The results either way are all physical: you roll to parry or dodge, or you get hit.
Mind bolt on the other hand has different type of effect, one not dependant on a physical contact of any kind: you do not need to touch the person. With Mind Bolt, you cannot move a book off the table. So, no gross demonstrative physical application. The target can't dodge: they make a saving throw. So, again, the effects are different.
With Psi-Sword, your are (somehow) making the emanation of psychic force a physical manifestation: it is hard enough in this form to parry with, but it's unusual nature is not resisted as other forms of physical attack are. It is a hardened mental force (sharpened too), which due to it's psionic nature, affects even invulnerable characters.
Unlike TK however, it can be used to directly parry other weapons as well as energy attacks (assuming the wielder if fast enough to do so).

[acreRake]

Just for the record: i'm with Whiz Kid, kids.

[Wayne_Breaux]

...the hell? You gave me the exact opposite of the power there. Mind Bolt allows you to blast the book, and the table itself, if you desire. It's a completely physical attack. It can't be saved against, only dodged. Were you thinking of a different power?

Honestly, I understand the concepts behind the different powers. I understand why the writers say they should work the way they say they do. I don't even have a problem with 'correcting' the way I play to suit that.

However, it bugs me that we get print wasted on some of the silliest things, yet somehow, when it comes to spelling out things that work differently than one would expect, we're expected to extrapolate a vague description into meaningful rules. Given the tendancy of the players of this system (and RPGs in general) to create elaborate reasoning to back up any interpretation of the rules that suits their needs, this is a dangerous thing to do.

Like I said, I'm more than willing to go with it. I understand this this is 'the way things work.' My problem is in having things work they way they do because someone just says 'oh, this is the way we always intended it to work, sorry if it was unclear, but didn't you read that vague paragraph which gave the rules, which could also be twisted to suit your point of view?'

It's not so much the rules that bug me, it's the sloppy way in which they're given and clarified that bugs me.

If you want to get technical, the description of Mindbolt doesn't specifically say that it affects animate or inanimate objects. The description says "a visible target", not a visible object or item. If it is pure mental force (as opposed to mentally generated physical force) then there would indeed be no book blasting. The term 'target' implies another person/living thing (inanimates are usually noted specifically as objects or items) and the use of a strike bonus further implies a mobile, 'living' target; however, the power is an old one and interpretation would be up to Kev. I'll have to see if I can get a direct ruling from him. The pure mental force aspect with no physical damage is the way my groups have always played it. In our games, TK takes down robots and mindbolt worries the invulnerable, but Kev may feel differently.

[Sentinel]

So, in other words, you need a mind for Mind Bolt to be effective.

[ZEN]

Of course Mind Bolt damages more than only living things.. sheesh!

[ZEN]

Sorry WK, I meant to Psi Sword, not Mind bolt.. anyway, I just think the discussion is starting to get a little tedious.. Wayne has already answered the question as best he can, lets move on eh?

[Thinyser]

If Wayne is still answering questions here then I would like to know how the Major Ability: Natural Combat Ability is applied.

See the thread 'Clarification of natural combat ability' or some such on the Q&A forum for more details.

The wording is VERY confusing all this "same level", "comparable style (but not level of experience)" mumbo jumbo is got my brain all bent out of shape.

It says likewise between the two which implies similarity of application but then it clearly contradicts itself with the passage noted in ().....

Click whirrrr click whirrr SNAP!! rattle rattle rattle.....
damn that was the last gear in my head and now I simply cant think straight.....
PLEASE FIX ME WAYNE!!! your my only hope!

[Marcantony]

Artistic question this time Wayne, and no, its not with regards to female anatomy this time.

With pencil sketches which arent inked, is there a means of preserving them so they dont smudge and cant be erased later?
I seem to remember back in high school my art teacher sprayed something on our sketch works but I cant remember what it was.

Or if anyone else here happens to know?

thanks

[NMI]

Artistic question this time Wayne, and no, its not with regards to female anatomy this time.

With pencil sketches which arent inked, is there a means of preserving them so they dont smudge and cant be erased later?
I seem to remember back in high school my art teacher sprayed something on our sketch works but I cant remember what it was.

Or if anyone else here happens to know?

thanks

Hairspray? Polyeurothane?

[Wayne_Breaux]

Artistic question this time Wayne, and no, its not with regards to female anatomy this time.

With pencil sketches which arent inked, is there a means of preserving them so they dont smudge and cant be erased later?
I seem to remember back in high school my art teacher sprayed something on our sketch works but I cant remember what it was.

Or if anyone else here happens to know?

thanks

Hairspray? Polyeurothane?

Hairspray, believe it or not, is one of the simplest means of 'fixing' smudgable mediums like pencil. I can't say what the long term presentability of hairspray on artwork might be, but I guess if you become famous enough someone will eventually pay whatever it costs to clean and refurbish hair product encrusted art.

Anyway, wish I had more time to reply to the more game-oriented questions, but they'll have to wait for a bit. I'm trying to finish the Atorian art and actually write up the missing weapons file before it goes into full blown production. I've been trying to throw a sneek peek of some of the art onto my site, but no luck so far. Kevin S was blown away by the art so far and I'm sure everyone else will be too. Patience, young jedi...er, cyber knight, patience.

[Marcantony]

Thank you for the response here and the pm Wayne.

I think I might be getting closer to actually displaying some of my art on my site.

[NMI]

Hairspray, believe it or not, is one of the simplest means of 'fixing' smudgable mediums like pencil. I can't say what the long term presentability of hairspray on artwork might be, but I guess if you become famous enough someone will eventually pay whatever it costs to clean and refurbish hair product encrusted art.

And to think, I was just goofing around when I said Hairspray.

[Wayne_Breaux]

So, in other words, you need a mind for Mind Bolt to be effective.

Which is, as Wayne pointed out himself, not stated in the power.

What is stated is that the power is pure 'mental force.' So's a psi-sword. Are we now saying the the psi-sword can only damage living things? That goes against the given description.

You are confusing the pure psionic energy of the psi sword with the mental damage type of mind bolt.

A psi-sword is a physical manifestation composed of pure, focused psionic energy which is generated from the mind of the psionic. In simple, concise terms, that makes it a physical, supernatural weapon, thus it can harm invulnerable characters and anything else it comes in contact with.

A mind bolt is also created from psionic energy, but the description specifically states that it does mental damage. We all assume that also includes physical damage, but my point was that the description says nothing about it actually doing physical damage. We generally interpret it to mean that the attack is coming from the mind of the attacker, thus making it 'mental damage', but the description seems to indicate that it actually does mental damage to the target. This would suggest the possibility that it only affects living things with some kind of mental component to their existance.

Also, as I noted, I was simply bringing up a point of opinion and the actual interpretation of the power would be up to Kevin S. I still have not gotten to ask him about it yet, though.

[Guest]

Time to clear up some misconceptions.

If you want to get technical, the description of Mindbolt doesn't specifically say that it affects animate or inanimate objects. The description says "a visible target", not a visible object or item. If it is pure mental force (as opposed to mentally generated physical force) then there would indeed be no book blasting. The term 'target' implies another person/living thing (inanimates are usually noted specifically as objects or items) and the use of a strike bonus further implies a mobile, 'living' target; however, the power is an old one and interpretation would be up to Kev. I'll have to see if I can get a direct ruling from him. The pure mental force aspect with no physical damage is the way my groups have always played it. In our games, TK takes down robots and mindbolt worries the invulnerable, but Kev may feel differently.

No, the term 'target' does not imply another person/living thing.

Merriam-Webster
tar·get
Pronunciation: 'tär-g&t
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French targette, diminutive of targe light shield, of Germanic origin; akin to Old Norse targa shield
1 : a small round shield
2 a : a mark to shoot at b : a target marked by shots fired at it c : something or someone fired at or marked for attack d : a goal to be achieved
3 a : an object of ridicule or criticism b : something or someone to be affected by an action or development
4 a : a railroad day signal that is attached to a switch stand and indicates whether the switch is open or closed b : a sliding sight on a surveyor's leveling rod
5 a : the metallic surface (as of platinum or tungsten) upon which the stream of electrons within an X-ray tube is focused and from which the X rays are emitted b : a body, surface, or material bombarded with nuclear particles or electrons; especially : fluorescent material on which desired visual effects are produced in electronic devices (as in radar)

You are confusing the pure psionic energy of the psi sword with the mental damage type of mind bolt.

A psi-sword is a physical manifestation composed of pure, focused psionic energy which is generated from the mind of the psionic. In simple, concise terms, that makes it a physical, supernatural weapon, thus it can harm invulnerable characters and anything else it comes in contact with.

A mind bolt is also created from psionic energy, but the description specifically states that it does mental damage.

No, it doesn't, sorry Wayne, but you're wrong.

We all assume that also includes physical damage, but my point was that the description says nothing about it actually doing physical damage.

It has an S.D.C. damage listing in the description, therefore, it does physical damage. That's not an assumption, that's a statement of fact.

We generally interpret it to mean that the attack is coming from the mind of the attacker, thus making it 'mental damage', but the description seems to indicate that it actually does mental damage to the target. This would suggest the possibility that it only affects living things with some kind of mental component to their existance.

No.

Also, as I noted, I was simply bringing up a point of opinion and the actual interpretation of the power would be up to Kevin S. I still have not gotten to ask him about it yet, though.

A clarification would be up to Kevin, the actual intepretation is pretty cut and dried. It's a mental force that does physical damage.

[Wayne_Breaux]

My point was that invulnerable characters are immune to normal, physical damage and mind bolt specifically states that it is mental damage, thus it should damage an invulnerable character. The possibility that it only does mental damage was a side thought followed by a comment on how we used it with house rules in my games. The latter remarks seem to have derailed the real point I was making.

Of course, the way some of you are responding it's surprising there is a discussion at all. If you feel that the psi-sword and mind bolt are both psionic energy (psionic energy=mental damage) and both do physical damage, then it should be a no-brainer that when Kevin S says that a psi-sword will damage an invulnerable character, then so to will the mind bolt.

Thus, psi-sword and mind bolt should damage an invulnerable character regardless of how you arrive at the conclusion. Both are not normal damage, even though they do physical damage, its nature is supernatural. Pyrokinesis and other powers psionically generate normal energy, such as fire, but it is not psionic fire, thus they will not harm an invulnerable character.

It's the same thing with TK attacks. They psionically generate a physical force, but it is not a purely psionic force that will damage invulnerable characters. It can certainly be used to knock down and push invulnerable characters, but TK punches and pushes will not do actual damage...unless you happen to push them on top of a pit full of enchanted punji stakes.

So, there you go. If that doesn't clear things up, you're on your own. That's my last 2 pennies on this one for now. Hope it helps.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Thus, psi-sword and mind bolt should damage an invulnerable character regardless of how you arrive at the conclusion. Both are not normal damage, even though they do physical damage, its nature is supernatural. Pyrokinesis and other powers psionically generate normal energy, such as fire, but it is not psionic fire, thus they will not harm an invulnerable character.

It's the same thing with TK attacks. They psionically generate a physical force, but it is not a purely psionic force that will damage invulnerable characters. It can certainly be used to knock down and push invulnerable characters, but TK punches and pushes will not do actual damage...unless you happen to push them on top of a pit full of enchanted punji stakes.

Okay, but back to the original problem: TK Punch has a range of one foot per level, implying that it is not merely a TK-accelerated punch, but an actual emission of psychokinetic energy, making it no different than a Psi-Sword. Why then is it treated differently from a Psi-Sword in this case?

[Glistam]

Okay, but back to the original problem: TK Punch has a range of one foot per level, implying that it is not merely a TK-accelerated punch, but an actual emission of psychokinetic energy, making it no different than a Psi-Sword. Why then is it treated differently from a Psi-Sword in this case?

Thus, psi-sword and mind bolt should damage an invulnerable character regardless of how you arrive at the conclusion. Both are not normal damage, even though they do physical damage, its nature is supernatural. Pyrokinesis and other powers psionically generate normal energy, such as fire, but it is not psionic fire, thus they will not harm an invulnerable character.

It's the same thing with TK attacks. They psionically generate a physical force, but it is not a purely psionic force that will damage invulnerable characters. It can certainly be used to knock down and push invulnerable characters, but TK punches and pushes will not do actual damage...unless you happen to push them on top of a pit full of enchanted punji stakes.

That seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Wayne_Breaux]

Well, it's unofficially official, I talked with Kevin S. about the mindbolt and he agrees that it is direct mind to mind damage and would indeed affect invulnerable characters (Juggernaut does wear that helmet of his for a reason ). That also means it will only work against living things with a brain/mind (including animated and pseudo organic bodies with a living mind controlling it, such as mineral aliens, tectonic entities, etc) and can not in fact blow objects off of a table. A transferred intelligence is a living essence, but it does not have an organic brain, thus like all robots, will not be affected by mind bolt. Kev agreed that the various TK attacks, pyrokinesis and other physical based psi powers are used to affect the inorganic world around the psychic, while mind bolt is reserved for mental assaults on other living things. This is another reason mind bolt is so powerful: it pumps damaging psychic energy straight into the mind/being of the target doing potentially massive amounts of damage (first to SDC, then to hit points).

Though Kev and I did not discuss it specifically, I would guess the attack is a visible bolt, possibly accompanied by some flash, beam, or bolt of light which allows it to be dodged. The raw power may also require considerable effort on the part of the psionic to launch it, further contributing to the dodge roll as the target can see him as he focuses and strains in concentration to 'hurl' a big chunk of his psi power across the way and slam it into another being.

Kev is hard at work on Ultimate Rifts as we speak, but he made no mention of adding clarifications to the mind bolt description there, so as I opened, this is officially decreed, but not officially sanctioned until it sees print. Use it as you will until then.

[Sentinel]

Once again, thank you Wayne for the Official Word.

[Sentinel]

Although the argument ended in my favor, I have to echo some of Whizs' thoughts: this could have been made more clear from the beginning.
I had always considered that this was not TK or some variant of a kinetic blast, but the stated SDC damage is misleading.
If the power was always intended to only affect those things with minds to begin with, then the language used in the description could have been more clear.

[Wayne_Breaux]

Not to sound sour grapes or anything, but some portion of that really should have been in the power in the first place. The very fact that in 20 years worth of Palladium Books, it has been made out to be nothing more than the psionic's equivalent of a 'standard' energy blast really makes this answer unsatisfying. This is aside from the fact that Psionic characters already have plenty of powers that only affect other minds; making this simply another one of them really dents it's usefulness.

This isn't like Gravity Manipulation, where an argument of intent could be made. The ruling that has been made on this power simply doesn't make any sense given what is on the printed page, and what has been previously printed in every Palladium game to feature psionics. It relies on assumptions made on things that are just not there.

Yes, a key word or two could be replaced in the description, but it isn't totally ambiguous. I figured it right (and used it that way for 16 years) before I even talked to Kevin and I know others that either did the same or had no problems with it once it was brought to their attention.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, nothing in the description specifically indicates that it does physical damage, other than the S.D.C. damage, and as someone here pointed out (also in an earlier post), there is no specifically mental/physical damage categories in Palladium, thus SDC damage is the only way to express the damage, be it mental or not.

You also have to consider the name of the ability and the fact that it is a psionic power, which should indicate it is likely to be a mental power unless something in the description states otherwise, which brings us around again to the specific use of the term 'mental' in the description to refer to the nature of the attack. You can't get much clearer than that.

This clarification of the power may seem to reduce its usefulness to some people, but it should be realized that psionics is a mental power category. They have 'plenty of powers that only affect other minds' for a good reason: it is a mind affecting category. Trying to jazz it up into a physical, combat category is the realm of specialty and sub-categories. Psylocke and her like are exceptions to the rule, not the standard.

Sorry it goes against some of your interpretations, but I guess you can look at it this way: now you get to scratch one power of your list of must haves and replace it with something more in line with your personal application of psionics. Of course, it also means that if you want some kind of insurance against those invulnerable guys, you should tuck this one into a back pocket. It may not be as versatile anymore, but it sure does have its uses.

On the other hand, I agree it could use clarifications, and if Kev doesn't get around to it with Ultimate Rifts or another book, I'll see about fixing it in a future supplement.

[Sentinel]

I might find it very amusing, although I prefer to refer to myself as a gaming enthusiast.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, it's unofficially official, I talked with Kevin S. about the mindbolt and he agrees that it is direct mind to mind damage and would indeed affect invulnerable characters (Juggernaut does wear that helmet of his for a reason ). That also means it will only work against living things with a brain/mind (including animated and pseudo organic bodies with a living mind controlling it, such as mineral aliens, tectonic entities, etc) and can not in fact blow objects off of a table. A transferred intelligence is a living essence, but it does not have an organic brain, thus like all robots, will not be affected by mind bolt. Kev agreed that the various TK attacks, pyrokinesis and other physical based psi powers are used to affect the inorganic world around the psychic, while mind bolt is reserved for mental assaults on other living things. This is another reason mind bolt is so powerful: it pumps damaging psychic energy straight into the mind/being of the target doing potentially massive amounts of damage (first to SDC, then to hit points).

Uh, okay...
How does this work in Rifts, where a Mind Bolt can do 2d4 mega-damage...?
I guess people are just screwed?

[Sentinel]

Well, it's unofficially official, I talked with Kevin S. about the mindbolt and he agrees that it is direct mind to mind damage and would indeed affect invulnerable characters (Juggernaut does wear that helmet of his for a reason ). That also means it will only work against living things with a brain/mind (including animated and pseudo organic bodies with a living mind controlling it, such as mineral aliens, tectonic entities, etc) and can not in fact blow objects off of a table. A transferred intelligence is a living essence, but it does not have an organic brain, thus like all robots, will not be affected by mind bolt. Kev agreed that the various TK attacks, pyrokinesis and other physical based psi powers are used to affect the inorganic world around the psychic, while mind bolt is reserved for mental assaults on other living things. This is another reason mind bolt is so powerful: it pumps damaging psychic energy straight into the mind/being of the target doing potentially massive amounts of damage (first to SDC, then to hit points).

Uh, okay...
How does this work in Rifts, where a Mind Bolt can do 2d4 mega-damage...?
I guess people are just screwed?

Presumably, it would do MD to targets with a mind that were MDC creatures or beings.
(of course MD is just screwy anyway...)

[Glistam]

Maybe that's why psychics are so feared? They can "mist" you with but a thought.

[Killer Cyborg]

Uh, okay...
How does this work in Rifts, where a Mind Bolt can do 2d4 mega-damage...?
I guess people are just screwed?

Presumably, it would do MD to targets with a mind that were MDC creatures or beings.
(of course MD is just screwy anyway...)

In Rifts, it can do SDC or MDC, depending on how much ISP you spend.
If it is mental damage, then logially any level should be able to affect MDC creatures...

For example, if you use the 1d6 SDC setting then it should do 1d6 SDC damage to SDC creatures, or 1d6 MD to MDC creatures.
But this isn't how it works. For 20 ISP you can do 6d6 SDC damage, or for 40 ISP you can do 2d4 Mega-Damage.
If it's mental damage, then there shouldn't be a seperate setting just to be able to affect MDC creatures; their mind isn't mega-damage...

[Sentinel]

Uh, okay...
How does this work in Rifts, where a Mind Bolt can do 2d4 mega-damage...?
I guess people are just screwed?

Presumably, it would do MD to targets with a mind that were MDC creatures or beings.
(of course MD is just screwy anyway...)

In Rifts, it can do SDC or MDC, depending on how much ISP you spend.
If it is mental damage, then logially any level should be able to affect MDC creatures...

For example, if you use the 1d6 SDC setting then it should do 1d6 SDC damage to SDC creatures, or 1d6 MD to MDC creatures.
But this isn't how it works. For 20 ISP you can do 6d6 SDC damage, or for 40 ISP you can do 2d4 Mega-Damage.
If it's mental damage, then there shouldn't be a seperate setting just to be able to affect MDC creatures; their mind isn't mega-damage...

Just speculating: I would guess that after the description of how SDC could in no way affect MDC, then the psi-power was given an MD component so that players wouldn't state that the psi power couldn't affect their MDC characters. Something to nerf the muchkin potential.

[Thinyser]

Nope I think KC is dead on with this one if it list SDC/HP for one ISP cost then for double the cost lists less MDC damage it is suggesting that it is a PHYSICAL damage.

If it were to list "6d6 SDC/HP/MDC for 20 ISP" or even "6d6 SDC/HP for 20 ISP and 6d6 MDC for 40 ISP" then it might be "mental" damage but how much damage can a "mind" sustain and what are the repercussions? Do you die? do you get any insanities if you survive? does it permanently befuddle you?

Then again I have a B.S. in Psychology and I do not believe a "mind" even exsist.

I argue the "mind" is a concept...can you prove a "mind" exsists?....there is a physical brain sure... but show me a "mind"... it is an idea... a concept... a figment of ones own imagination even ...but it is not anymore "real" than a "soul"...
and thats one that nobody has been able to prove exsist since before any of us have been on this Earth and probably long before any of today's religions delt with the concept either.

That said the whole idea of "mental damage" makes me cringe

[Wayne_Breaux]

Nope I think KC is dead on with this one if it list SDC/HP for one ISP cost then for double the cost lists less MDC damage it is suggesting that it is a PHYSICAL damage.

If it were to list "6d6 SDC/HP/MDC for 20 ISP" or even "6d6 SDC/HP for 20 ISP and 6d6 MDC for 40 ISP" then it might be "mental" damage but how much damage can a "mind" sustain and what are the repercussions? Do you die? do you get any insanities if you survive? does it permanently befuddle you?

Then again I have a B.S. in Psychology and I do not believe a "mind" even exsist.

I argue the "mind" is a concept...can you prove a "mind" exsists?....there is a physical brain sure... but show me a "mind"... it is an idea... a concept... a figment of ones own imagination even ...but it is not anymore "real" than a "soul"...
and thats one that nobody has been able to prove exsist since before any of us have been on this Earth and probably long before any of today's religions delt with the concept either.

That said the whole idea of "mental damage" makes me cringe

And now you see one of the many reasons I prefer the SDC system to MDC. Just as there is no system to differentiate physical and mental damage in HU, so to is it in Rifts. Thus the only way to register damage in MDC is through...MDC damage, regardless of the source/type/cause of that damage. MDC creatures have no hit points or SDC, thus anything that damages them will be represented by MDC damage. It is a limitation of the system.

[Sentinel]

Nope I think KC is dead on with this one if it list SDC/HP for one ISP cost then for double the cost lists less MDC damage it is suggesting that it is a PHYSICAL damage.

If it were to list "6d6 SDC/HP/MDC for 20 ISP" or even "6d6 SDC/HP for 20 ISP and 6d6 MDC for 40 ISP" then it might be "mental" damage but how much damage can a "mind" sustain and what are the repercussions? Do you die? do you get any insanities if you survive? does it permanently befuddle you?

Then again I have a B.S. in Psychology and I do not believe a "mind" even exsist.

I argue the "mind" is a concept...can you prove a "mind" exsists?....there is a physical brain sure... but show me a "mind"... it is an idea... a concept... a figment of ones own imagination even ...but it is not anymore "real" than a "soul"...
and thats one that nobody has been able to prove exsist since before any of us have been on this Earth and probably long before any of today's religions delt with the concept either.

That said the whole idea of "mental damage" makes me cringe

And now you see one of the many reasons I prefer the SDC system to MDC. Just as there is no system to differentiate physical and mental damage in HU, so to is it in Rifts. Thus the only way to register damage in MDC is through...MDC damage, regardless of the source/type/cause of that damage. MDC creatures have no hit points or SDC, thus anything that damages them will be represented by MDC damage. It is a limitation of the system.

(Emphasis added by Sentinel).
Perhaps a better way to say that Wayne is to say "...anything that harms or hurts them will be represented by MD."
If what you are saying about Mind Bolt not actually doing physical damage is correct, then I fully understand the need to express the amount of hurt a character is absorbing before being overwhelmed, and I agree that SDC is a good way to indicate that. But I still agree with the others on the point that the language can be unclear at times.

As to whether or not one believes in the "mind", the power is clearly (now) intended to affect sentient, organic creatures, not machines or inanimate objects.
The SDC or MDC damage is just used a quick indicator of how close to completely incapacitated the target is (and I personally like this better than Saving Throws).

[Tinker Dragoon]

The previous comments on the Natural Genius reminded me of something which has been bugging me for a couple of years now:

Hardware characters have the ability to exceed 98% on their skills. Does this apply to all their skills, or just the special Hardware skills (Analyze/Operate Devices, Build/Modify Super Vehicles, etc.)?

I've always ruled that only the Hardware skills could exceed 98%, as they would otherwise be rendered redundant by similar scholastic skills (Electrical Engineering, Computer Hacking, etc.) which progress at a much faster rate, but I can't find a specific passage in the book to support this ruling.

[Sentinel]

well, more fuel for the Mind-Bolt fire:

PU1 pg97 under #2 Can Psionics Affect people in Body Armor ? the 2nd para lists a bunch of "physical psionic manifestations" one of which is Mind Bolt.

I might be wrong here, but I thought the official ruling was that you can use Psionics to affect those in power armour, but not in robot vehicle/suits.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Powers Unlimited questions belong in the Carmen Bellaire FAQ, though Immunity to Psionics was created by our own Rifter_Richeta, so you could always ask him.

Of course, the answer to this one is plainly stated in the books. Mental Stun is not a Psionic power; to resist it you make a Save vs. Mental Stun, which is a 15 or better with M.E. bonuses regardless of whether the victim is a Minor, Major, or Master Psionic. Furthermore the Immune to Psionics power specificies "any psionic power where a save vs. psionics is allowed," and Mental Stun is neither of these.

[znbrtn]

Powers Unlimited questions belong in the Carmen Bellaire FAQ, though Immunity to Psionics was created by our own Rifter_Richeta, so you could always ask him.

Of course, the answer to this one is plainly stated in the books. Mental Stun is not a Psionic power; to resist it you make a Save vs. Mental Stun, which is a 15 or better with M.E. bonuses regardless of whether the victim is a Minor, Major, or Master Psionic. Furthermore the Immune to Psionics power specificies "any psionic power where a save vs. psionics is allowed," and Mental Stun is neither of these.

i'm assuming that this extends to the other two powers as well?

[Wayne_Breaux]

one other thing:

since there's no SDC in cyberjacking, things like Bio-Armor or extra SDC from a super-power program won't work. armor or bio-Armor will look real but not offer any SDC, right ?

what about vehicles ? a RES can simulate buildings and landscapes, can you program a vehicle ? (and give it SDC).

since you can simulate a building in a RES (a wall) I assume TKFF or such will work ?

I'm planning to expand and clarify the cyberjacking rules in Hardware Unlimited (since electrical geniuses are the core hackers in HU), so plenty of questions should be answered there.

This is a good question and I may have to think on it. All damage sustained by the cyberjacker goes directly to hit points, their own SDC does not absorb it because it is piped directly into the brain and nervous system. The idea behind filters is that they minimize this feedback without degrading signal and control commands. Too much interference and it would impair hacking performance.

There is also the concept that each cyberjacking method has strengths and weaknesses. Standard cyberjacking provides no SDC, but it is much faster than non-jacking methods. Those non-jackers, however, are safe from damage since they are not connected to the computer. Most supernatural hackers are in the same boat as the cyberjacker, faster than non-jacked, but they are also safer because they do not need to jack in. The high powered supernatural hackers, those that can actually enter the system are supermen with lightning reflexes and SDC protection, but all damage they sustain is real and they can even be ejected from the system right into the middle of the physical location they are hacking (or they can even be trapped inside an isolated system when its remote access is shut down). Giving anyone the ability to write a program providing tons of SDC throws most of that out of the window.

It is possible it could be done, but at this moment (a thought that may be totally reworked for Hardware U), I would limit any SDC 'programs' by level, make the gains small (10 per level or so) and make them very difficult programs to write (-40% to effective skill rating).

Feedback on this one is welcome if someone wants to start a thread for it, I'll monitor the posts and answer/comment when I can. In all honesty, the cyberjacking rules did not get all of the playtesting I wanted and I could use some input from the trenches while updating them.

[Wayne_Breaux]

Ok this has been coming up and I honestly need a ruling so that I know I am treating my players fairly

Immunity to Psionics states if it requires a save vrs psionics, then this charcter is immune.

Mental Stun says its not a psionic power, but it uses the save vrs psionics to see if the said person is affected or not. Vertigo Field does the same thing mental stun does just more powerful, it jacks with the electrical impulses in a person body just that it will also affect a machine. It says that the save is 15 ME Bonus applies. Since it don't state that its a psionic save or not then the immunity to psionics doest help. So does Mental stun get stoped by immunity to Psionics, seeing how it doing the same thing as vertigo field just on a lesser scale?

Control others also uses the save vrs psionics to determine if it has taken hold on a charcter. It also states that its not a psionic power, so would immunity to Psionics keep control others from taken hold on a charcter?

To me it seems that Mental Stun, Vertigo Field, and Control others should not be affected by the minor power Immunity to Psionics.

I would leave this one a GM's call, but in my opinion as a gamemaster, I would allow the immunity to extend to those other powers as well.

[Wayne_Breaux]

Wayne can multiple Armor spells be active on the same person at the same time ?

Armor of Ithan
Armor Bizarre
Invulnerability

stack the SDC/MDC ?
take damage off the last cast spell, etc ?

Multiple armor spells can be active, but though they do provide layered protection, they do not 'stack.'

The best one (highest A.R.) would protect until it was depleted, then the next best, and so on. The same would apply to conventional armor worn under magical protections.

Spells like Invulnerability: Limited (p 187 of HU GMG) add extra SDC to the character. This spell would function normally under other magical protections and any damage that got past something like the armor of Ithan spell would first come off of the magical SDC before that of the character himself. It is treated as his own SDC for the duration of the spell. Special attacks that by pass armor and/or SDC (straight-to-hit points attacks) will function normally also, ignoring either the armor or the SDC (including the magical variety) as stated in the rules.

I may consider some armor layering rules for Hardware Unlimited, but that's just a thought and not a serious consideration at this time.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wayne can multiple Armor spells be active on the same person at the same time ?

Armor of Ithan
Armor Bizarre
Invulnerability

stack the SDC/MDC ?
take damage off the last cast spell, etc ?

Multiple armor spells can be active, but though they do provide layered protection, they do not 'stack.'

The best one (highest A.R.) would protect until it was depleted, then the next best, and so on. The same would apply to conventional armor worn under magical protections.

Spells like Invulnerability: Limited (p 187 of HU GMG) add extra SDC to the character. This spell would function normally under other magical protections and any damage that got past something like the armor of Ithan spell would first come off of the magical SDC before that of the character himself. It is treated as his own SDC for the duration of the spell. Special attacks that by pass armor and/or SDC (straight-to-hit points attacks) will function normally also, ignoring either the armor or the SDC (including the magical variety) as stated in the rules.

I may consider some armor layering rules for Hardware Unlimited, but that's just a thought and not a serious consideration at this time.

In an SDC setting, that would not unbalance things much because the AR could be bypassed.
This would not be the case in Rifts or other MDC settings, where MDC protection spells always block incoming damage.
In an MDC setting, a mage could quickly get incredible amounts of MDC without much effort... if the rules are the same in MDC worlds as in SDC worlds.

[demos606]

Nobody ever said you can cast multiple copies of the same spell so there's no reason in hell to believe that AoI would "double up" like you described. What Wayne said is that yes, AoI and Invul and Armor Bazare work together - big difference.