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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:14 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:01 am
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Location: Canada
After checking our GM's checklist, I have noticed in the last couple of year's we have had an increased tendency to select "Dead" as our prefered villain dealing method, now since most of us are vigilantee types, that's not unusuall, but since I started a "Good Guy" good guy, murder just doesnt seem right, how do the rest o ya deal with it?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:05 am
  

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Hero

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I dont see anything wrong with killin em off its better then goin cliche letting em live just to come back and do more evil stuff to top the last one so kudos to you and your group keep up the "good" work

Lynx

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:09 am
  

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From my GM point of view, I more or less remind characters\players (depending on which one needs the reminding) that killing villains, leads to more dangerious villains. If they know that they are going to be killed if caught they are going to need more extreem tactics. If they know that they have the chance to surrender, they might just take it.

also if your going to die either way you might as well take as many people as you can with you. The way I see it a "hero" should only kill if the "villain" takes the life of an innocent. You see if you set the precident that you'll only kill them if they kill, it would make them less likely to kill. If your going to kill them regardless if they kill or not they have no reason not to kill.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:27 am
  

Adventurer

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:49 am
Posts: 535
Government agents (or like the JLA & Avengers)
If the characters are lawfully dutied and working for the gov'ment, you're only to use enough force to incapacitate them.

If they start killing (especially in public), their bosses, the gov'ment, will frown upon that and probably move y'all to a new position more worthy of your lack of morals - a paramilitary death squad.

Mutant Foundation agents (like the X-Men)
Besides the "I'm ashamed of you Badger" disapproval from the charisamatic Da Boss, your actions feeds the fears of the Homo Sapien populace.

Lone agents (like Spiderman)
Have a newspaper watch their every move. They slip up and the people on the streets, the police, etc will sway their personal opinion of them. How can the group sneak up on the warehouse where the villain gang is when a street person saw the group, called the police to arrest one of the FBI Most Wanted for the reward, and sirens and/or city superheroes are blaring your way?



You might want to check out the old Marvel Game (it's on the net somewheres) Karma system.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:08 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:15 pm
Posts: 43
Our group tries our damndest to avoid killing villians. Our team is a UN sponsored super hero squad al-la the JLA. We happen to have a book for the DC comics RPG that has the Legion of Superheroes charter. We modified it to suit our group and world, not needing some of the stuff in it, and needing to change some other stuff. Once we modified it, it was still huge, but it's our guidlines for superheroing. I'm willing to email people the justice squadron charter if they'd like to look at it.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:26 am
  

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Champion

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Lynx8882 wrote:
I dont see anything wrong with killin em off its better then goin cliche letting em live just to come back and do more evil stuff to top the last one so kudos to you and your group keep up the "good" work


Only one problem with that philosophy. This is Heroes Unlimited, where the majority of "Heroes" are of Good or Unprincipled alignments. Going back and looking at those alignments:

PRINCIPLED: Principled characters ... have a high regard for (and trust of) authority, as well as for life and freedom.
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe.
6. Never kill for pleasure.

SCRUPULOUS: Scrupulous characters value life and freedom above all else, and despise those who would deprive others of them.
3. Never attack or kill an unarmed foe.
6. will always attempt to bring the villain to justice alive, no matter how vile he may find him.

UNPRINCIPLED: This guy is likely to be a vigilante or anti-hero whose intentions are good, tries to be fair and honest, but finds the law corrupt, slow and ineffective. Thus, he goes his own, more efficient route (at least that's how he sees it), working outside the law.
3. Not kill an unarmed foe (but will take advantage of one).
6. Never kill for pleasure; will attempt to bring the villain to justice alive or ruin him.

Simply killing off the villains (even in the name of public safety) simply goes against those alignments... and if the Scrupulous and Unprincipled alignments stress that the character will attempt to bring villains alive to justice you can be sure that the Principled alignment is just as dilligent in doing so.

Now if this was Rifts, the savage post-apocalyptic wilderness where evil supernatural monsters lurk around every third tree waiting to devour young maidens, then the 'just kill them you'll feel better later' approach would not only be appropriate but encouraged.

I know some think it's cool to run a dark, gritty campaign of anti-heroes and vigilantes... and if that's what you're after then go right ahead. That's just not being a hero in my book.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:04 pm
  

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Priest

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I find I have to remind my players that we're playing in HU and not Rifts sometimes when it comes to taking down the villians, but for the most part they remember that. We have one character with ME: Metal so we ALWAYS have restraints handy, and I tell them that I reward them more for capturing villians then I do just killing them. Plus they are pretty smart and staked out the jail where the baddie they had just taken down was being held, and then caught his friends trying to break him out. It messed up my adventrue, but it was a lot of fun having them turn the tables like that.

Captain Evil to his henchmen as he sees him outside his cell, "You're here to free me! Good work."
Player One then steps around the corner witht he police in SCRET suits pushing him into the cell next to Captain Evil, "Nope, he's your new roommate." ;)


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:11 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 79
Location: Sweden, Skandinavia, Europe
The few times I play HU, I have often found that my players decide whether or not to kill the villain based on what power class he is.

Hardware (All): These are rarely if ever killed. Mostly they only wind up having their equipment crushed and sent to prison. Of course, on occasion a villain in a vehicle or enhanced armor *might* die, but this is pretty rare and only happen during extreme circumstances (like a high-speed pursuit).

Mutant and Experiment: So far only three of these have died in my games and none of them were intentional.

Magic: A little more complicated. The Magic Weapon and Enchanted Object categories can be handled simply by taking the empowering object away from them. Bestowed and Mystic Study classes generally run away or escape when the going gets tough. Only one casualty so far (a Mystic Study who tried to enslave one demon too many).

Robot: Since these are not considered *alive* by most of my players, they are generally scrapped. The simple robots are usually just disabled, but the really intelligent ones are usually destroyed outright. A truly "evil" A.I. will usually never change its ways, and if it did, a little reprogramming can wipe that out a bit too easy for comfort. Better safe than sorry. These have the highest casualty ratio of all my villains actually.
The mundane pilots of robot vehices are always spared (they generally can't build a new one, so they're not considered a threat).

Physical Training: Not considered enough of a threat by my players to warrant their deaths (have only had one player choose a PT so far).

Psychic: A step down from the Mystic Study class. Only the most diabolical mind controllers are considered, but they are usually "treated with extreme prejudice". No casualties so far, gave one brain damage though (and that was intentional, but the hero in question slipped to Unprincipled because of it).

As you might have guessed, I haven't got PU2 yet so my group haven't had any experience with those classes yet.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:40 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:42 am
Posts: 283
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Let's also remember one little problem with the game mechanics:

You can't really just knock someone out.

You have to send them into a coma to get them to stop moving.

It's too easy to kill someone in HU.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
  

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Champion

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DarkWarriorKarg wrote:
Let's also remember one little problem with the game mechanics:

You can't really just knock someone out.

You have to send them into a coma to get them to stop moving.

It's too easy to kill someone in HU.


Yeah - that's why I treat it more MSH-esque in regards to health/SDC/HP. When the characer loses all his SDC/HP he is merely knocked out - stuck at 0 HP. I automatically assume all combat is to disable. If any attacks continue, I assume the character has intent to kill. Also, if he takes subsequent damage (bleeding from cuts and bullet wounds, falling damage, etc), he continues to take damage, going into the negatives and could eventually die (which is why you don't see many heroes use guns or knives).

Of course - there are some situations where the character won't just be stuck at zero- like in large explosions and other large-scale damage causing events. In that case the character could die outright.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:28 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Hey, relaaaax. Pretend it's a game. Maybe it'll even be fun
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DarkWarriorKarg wrote:
Let's also remember one little problem with the game mechanics:

You can't really just knock someone out.

You have to send them into a coma to get them to stop moving.

It's too easy to kill someone in HU.


yes it is, unfortunetly the game lacks a stunned\koed type status. I've been trying to make up some kind of house rule to get around that . . .something to the effect of 0 hp to - P.E. hp is Koed, - P.E. to 2 x - P.E. is Coma, 2 x - P.E. is dead.

of course that brings up the question . . . why don't villains ever surrender, "this next shot will kill me, I better give up".

In my current HU campaign I had this problem, my hero was fighting normal thugs (albiet thugs with SMGs) who just wouldn't have the decency to give up. I guess it's a flaw in the GMing or whatever.

ok now I'll stop the rambling


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:43 am
  

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Prince of Powers

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 1:01 am
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Location: Australia
AlricFlaim wrote:
Once we modified it, it was still huge, but it's our guidlines for superheroing. I'm willing to email people the justice squadron charter if they'd like to look at it.


*sticks hand up*

Here please.

Darque513@icqmail.com.

I have the avengers charter around here somewhere. I'd like to see how it stacks up.

Batts

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:08 am
  

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Explorer

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AlricFlaim wrote:
I'm willing to email people the justice squadron charter if they'd like to look at it.


Toss a copy this way as well, please. I would like to see how it compares to charters I've done in my campaign world for sanctioned super hero groups.

darkwind@therealm-rpg.com

Thanks,

Darkwind

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:32 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 197
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i believe the actual rule as per heros unlimited is that you can knock some one out with some kind of ko punch or nat 20 w/ boxing

but when sdc is gone the get knocked out
when hp is 0 they are comatose
after the hp reaches 0 the character will only has his PE in hours left to live
or until he reaches negative his PE so which ever comes first will kill him


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:47 am
  

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Champion

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:01 am
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Location: The Servodome, in downtown Servotopia
the drunken werebear wrote:
i believe the actual rule as per heros unlimited is that you can knock some one out with some kind of ko punch or nat 20 w/ boxing

but when sdc is gone the get knocked out
when hp is 0 they are comatose
after the hp reaches 0 the character will only has his PE in hours left to live
or until he reaches negative his PE so which ever comes first will kill him


The thing about boxing is that on a natural 20 the opponent is KO'ed automatically -- the character doesn't have to announce an intention to knock his opponent out, and actually can knock someone out without trying ("Whoa, I didn't mean to do that... now we'll have to wait until he wakes up to question him...").

IIRC, Villains Unlimited covered a situation where someone tried to knock someone out, and the GM in question (I think it was Siembieda) said that the character could do it with a called shot (declare intention to KO) and roll a 20 or better (I'm thinking strike bonuses were included).

That's how I as GM would handle someone purposely trying to knock someone out. It's not easy to KO someone in RL, so I can't see where it should be easy to do so in a game.

On the other hand, I like the idea of 'passing out' when someone's SDC reaches zero... or at least having to make a check of some sort to stay conscious.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:44 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:42 am
Posts: 283
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Uncle Servo wrote:
the drunken werebear wrote:
i believe the actual rule as per heros unlimited is that you can knock some one out with some kind of ko punch or nat 20 w/ boxing

but when sdc is gone the get knocked out
when hp is 0 they are comatose
after the hp reaches 0 the character will only has his PE in hours left to live
or until he reaches negative his PE so which ever comes first will kill him


The thing about boxing is that on a natural 20 the opponent is KO'ed automatically -- the character doesn't have to announce an intention to knock his opponent out, and actually can knock someone out without trying ("Whoa, I didn't mean to do that... now we'll have to wait until he wakes up to question him...").

IIRC, Villains Unlimited covered a situation where someone tried to knock someone out, and the GM in question (I think it was Siembieda) said that the character could do it with a called shot (declare intention to KO) and roll a 20 or better (I'm thinking strike bonuses were included).

That's how I as GM would handle someone purposely trying to knock someone out. It's not easy to KO someone in RL, so I can't see where it should be easy to do so in a game.

On the other hand, I like the idea of 'passing out' when someone's SDC reaches zero... or at least having to make a check of some sort to stay conscious.


But in the comics, where this game is influenced, it's pretty easy. In R/L, I don't fire energy bolts, turn into steel, fly without aid (at least not for long!), bounce bullets off my chest or teleport. Why should I suddenly follow R/L rules?

Knocking someone out, especially thugs, should be cinematic and relatively easy (ref: Batman, Punisher comics) as per the superhero theme.
Major bad guys (basically, a character that is more than a template) could be harder.

Just to clarify my statement, template characters are the guys you find described with minimal stats over a couple of lines. For all intents and purposes, I call them "Goons".

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:35 am
  

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Prince of Powers

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 1:01 am
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Location: Australia
I use the following in my games.

When all SDC is gone, the characters run through the following checklist.

1) do they have 50 HP's or more
2) do they have some ability to ignore pain
3) do they posess the capacity to fight below 0 HP.
4) are they currently beserk, superbrawling or under the influence of a power or drug that enhances the character's metabolism.

if they answer no to all of these then they make a save vs Unconciousness (PE bonuses apply, as do other applicable bonuses such as a +3 from healing factor). the initial save is 10.

Guys with more than 50 HP don't make thier saves until dropping below 50

a second save (12+) is made at 1/2 HP (or 25 if they had over 50 to begin with)

A third is made (14+) at 1/4 HP (or 12 if he started with over 50)

at 3 or less HP, a character automatically passes out from trauma and shock, unless he is already able to fight/act at 0 or below, or is otherwise immune to pain from one source or another.

Character knocked out in this fashion usually stay that way until it is dramatically appropriate. Mooks and cannon fodder have a -6 to their saves. Players can choose to fail and be knocked out. The reasoning behind this is that, unless bleeding to death in a fantastic and dramtic way, they will be taken prisoner with quite few HP left to fight their way out.

Also, any character who has a KO ability, I allow to perform a knock out with minimal fuss if a victim is unaware/unalert or helpless.

Batts

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