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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:03 pm
  

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I stopped reading this thread a while ago, but I just want to point out that a character has to be put on paper by a player. It's never 100%, but you can often detect the work of a munchkin player by looking at the character he creates. If it seems like the attributes are abnormally high, the power combinations shallow or unimaginative, the back story poorly fleshed out to allow for maximum flexibility when challenged.... Well, that character could have been constructed by someone not willing to have any weak sides, someone not willing to play in character. Most of us start out this way, and most of us grow out of it. Even those that don't can still enjoy the game, and can be enjoyable to have in some groups.

Any character can transcend their birth as a munchkin, but it usually requires growth on the part of the player and a willingness to lock themselves into a concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:19 am
  

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Usually if I am GM or writing a story/game, I have powerful villains. Especially in Heroes. I love the comics with the really rought villains. It creates a greater challenge for the heroes. The whole "massively powered warrior takes down ultimate villain in two hits" type of thing always annoyed me.
As far as powers go, a character with sonic speed and a rope could take down your average Invulnerable. A lasso around the neck and run all over town with him. Heck Extraordinary Speed could do the same, or anyone who can set a trap.
A clever tech type can take a mutant down FAST. I have done it. With a Stage Magician no less. But that's all in role playing.
Anyway, I like high powered stories, it's just fun for me.
I also like playing weaker characters in high powered games. A normal soldier without powers, just a basic vigilante, alongside the cosmic powers of the Megaverse. That's cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:19 am
  

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Usually if I am GM or writing a story/game, I have powerful villains. Especially in Heroes. I love the comics with the really rought villains. It creates a greater challenge for the heroes. The whole "massively powered warrior takes down ultimate villain in two hits" type of thing always annoyed me.
As far as powers go, a character with sonic speed and a rope could take down your average Invulnerable. A lasso around the neck and run all over town with him. Heck Extraordinary Speed could do the same, or anyone who can set a trap.
A clever tech type can take a mutant down FAST. I have done it. With a Stage Magician no less. But that's all in role playing.
Anyway, I like high powered stories, it's just fun for me.
I also like playing weaker characters in high powered games. A normal soldier without powers, just a basic vigilante, alongside the cosmic powers of the Megaverse. That's cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:40 am
  

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DarkWarriorKarg wrote:
ApocalypseZero wrote:

Another reason I limit Invulnerability is for abuse. I tend to attract people who would like to abuse this power in too many ways. But I know, GMing is never easy. (Besides, I've been stuck with Rifts for too long. Just getting back into the HU thing again.)


I'm just curious...

How do you abuse Invulnerability? Apart from not getting hurt, which is the point of the power, it really doesn't do much. Granted, you can get hit with explosions & bullets & laugh them off, but... :-?



Well here is my example.

I've got a player, he has the following powers, Flightwingless, Extraordinary sense of hearing, extraordianary physical prowess, and invulnerbility.

He's a spy.
His secret weapon is to strap tons of explosives on his body and detonate them.
He's a spy.

I mean sure, I've got psychics, I've got mages, I've got magical weapons, I've got "battle feild removal", I've got people who can remotely detenate his explosives and make him a baby murderer.

I've got all the GMing tools in the world to make him pay for it . . . unfortunetly, by definition i'm "picking on him". I mean really, would I use all of thoes tools against the party if he wasn't invulnerable, would there be that many people who can deal with invulnerables if he wasn't invulnerable. Of course I'm up front about it, if you play that guy i'm going to make you pay for it.

He's not a spy . . . He's superman.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:28 am
  

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Quote:




He's a spy.
His secret weapon is to strap tons of explosives on his body and detonate them.
He's a spy.

He's not a spy . . . He's superman.



He is someone begging to use that trick for the last time because just as he detonates he realizes that his power has been turned off by Negate Super Power or Borrow Super Power by an old foe thought long dead now back and more deadly than ever. Probably the last thing the character thinks before the end. If he is a spy or the player wanted to be a spy then he should have went the spy route. Intangibility, Darkness Control, Invisibility or Cloaking and not Invulnerability. Still seems to me the player is being munchkin and not any power.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:01 am
  

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DarkWarriorKarg wrote:
ApocalypseZero wrote:
I'm just curious...

How do you abuse Invulnerability? Apart from not getting hurt, which is the point of the power, it really doesn't do much. Granted, you can get hit with explosions & bullets & laugh them off, but... :-?


You don't fear anything anymore. Without invulnerbility, would I drive a motorcycle up a ramp and over a helicopter spining it's blades. 'ELL NO! With it, 'ELL YES AND WITHOUT A HELMET! Oh, the money I could make with Invulnerability. The FAME! THE WOMEN! 8) Krista Allen would be on my arm! SWEET!

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:33 am
  

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I think my point has been proven. Just read these past 3 posts. Invulnerablity it cool, can make a cool character, but seems to be abused more often then not.

Now, if it had to be turned on..............

That is one way I would allow it, if it feel with the transform to use powers mutation/experiment idea. Hell, a mage with the spell could almost do the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:38 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Apart from the non-heroic "spy", I don't see the rest as abusive.

And if it's a non-heroic game, it might be fine. However, the "spy"'s player seems to have min/maxed :roll: .

If your character is an invulnerable stuntman, more power to him. That's the way it should be used. If you want to be flashy with it, fine. Make money off it? What's wrong with that? It worked for Wonder Man in Marvel :-) Just makes you a bigger target. And should villains need special methods top take out a particular character? Why not? This is a superhero game. Happens all the time in the comics. Note that for the above named character, the only thing he had was invulnerability and superstrength (I'm talking 80's, early 90's).

And creative use of invulnerability should be rewarded, just as for the creative use of any other power.

Now, if the game world is one where mutants are viewed as freaks and are hunted down, then the player's being stupid and the character deserves to be in a government lab being probed.

We have different views. Would I let a player have the "spy"'s combo? Maybe. Probably not, knowing some of my players. Would I ban invulnerability? No. Do I control which player gets what? Yes, and I make no bones about my discrimination. Is it fair? No. Do I tell my players why they're not getting a combo? Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:54 am
  

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Quote:
We have different views. Would I let a player have the "spy"'s combo? Maybe. Probably not, knowing some of my players. Would I ban invulnerability? No. Do I control which player gets what? Yes, and I make no bones about my discrimination. Is it fair? No. Do I tell my players why they're not getting a combo? Yes.


So you would limit the combo but not the powers?!? (That's just how I am reading it.)

I guess I should also explain that I come off like I ban Invulnerability, but truthfully it is a viable option if the character is 'right' for the power. I know a lot more of my players would have the power if I didn't strike it down. (In fact, I had 3 try.) I guess I'd call it more of a rare power instead of a banned power. Now, I also want to point out that this applies only characters who would have it constantly. A Magic object, weapon, enchanted, transforming, or other on/off or item based characters with Invulnerability is fine. (Because the guy is not continuously disregarding his life due to his power.) Now, I also note that it is because I know my players to well (or not enough) that I do this. If I had one of you guys playing and asked for it, you'd probably get it. As long as I didn't get the feeling of dread from the invulnerable suicide bomber unleashed. :? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:24 pm
  

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(Slightly) off-topic, but...

I have a Rifts vagabond character that is super endowed (get out of the gutter boys and girls...)

Would you consider the following combination "Munchkin" (I already know the answer, but anyway...)

Supernatural PS (comes out to 62)
Natural Combat Ability
Invulnerability

Extraordinary PE
Healing Factor
Supervision: Nightvision




Now that the resounding "YES" has reverberated around the megaverse...

Here are his stats: IQ 7 / ME 29 / MA 20 / PS(S) 62 / PP 19 / PE 36 / PB 14 / Spd 15
Damage Capacity: 218 HP / 393 SDC / 865 MDC

Back Story: He grew-up in a small village where he was noted to be bigger and stronger than his age-mates at a very young age, and also "slow." He spent almost 10 years apprenticed to the Dwarven smith in town, and after he died, wandered around for a year or so until he met an elf whom took him under his wing, and taught him about astronomy (and a few other domestic / entertainment / practical skills). About 2-3 years later the elf was killed, and the character has been wandering on his MDC mountain bike ever since, carrying something like half a metric tonne of equipment and scrap (toys).

Character Notes: The character is retarted (slightly), and despite being in his early 20's, has the mentality of someone about 5-6 years old.
The character will EXPLICITLY not hurt anyone deliberately, unless you hurt/kill one of his friends in front of him, OR, you harm his teddy bear, OR you actually manage to badly hurt him (do over 1D6x10 damage that can penetrate his invulnerability) while toe-to-toe (or in a direct line of sight, since even HE is not THAT stupid!). Outside of that, he will think you are PLAYING, and react accordingly ("Tag, you're it!" - >smack<, as he does 2D4x10 damage, after all, you're wearing armour, so he CAN'T hurt you!), and obviously (laughing, giggling, acting like a young child), all the while being friendly!
Also, because of the power combo, while he has the capacity to do 3D6x10+6 damage with a power blow...he cannot, because he doesn't know he can!
He is, helpful, friendly, happy, and submissive...and carries a 500lb MDC sledge hammer - he's a smith after all! ;)

I created him as a combination "pack-mule" and foil to keep the party in line ("Oh God...he's wandered off again!") and to have some fun with! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:35 pm
  

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Borast wrote:
(Slightly) off-topic, but...

I have a Rifts vagabond character that is super endowed (get out of the gutter boys and girls...)

Would you consider the following combination "Munchkin" (I already know the answer, but anyway...)

Supernatural PS (comes out to 62)
Natural Combat Ability
Invulnerability

Extraordinary PE
Healing Factor
Supervision: Nightvision



If playing in Rifts, why have Healing Factor when you have Invulnerability when Invulnerability in a MDC environment gives you a better Regeneration? No drugs, toxins, or poisons is really going to fell an UBER MDC being that regenerates every turn. There are other powers that are better than the bonuses to PE and (HP & SDC) which are converted to MDC. The +3 saves to magic & psionics - questionable. I wouldn't do it.

_________________
Evil do-ers, prepare to become evil-don't-ers.
--Stripperella

The courageous enter dark caves alone, the clever send in the courageous first, the cleverest wait behind the clever.
-- THE BOOK OF CATACLYSM


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:24 pm
  

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Borast wrote:
(Slightly) off-topic, but...

I have a Rifts vagabond character that is super endowed (get out of the gutter boys and girls...)

Would you consider the following combination "Munchkin" (I already know the answer, but anyway...)

Supernatural PS (comes out to 62)
Natural Combat Ability
Invulnerability

Extraordinary PE
Healing Factor
Supervision: Nightvision




Now that the resounding "YES" has reverberated around the megaverse...

Here are his stats: IQ 7 / ME 29 / MA 20 / PS(S) 62 / PP 19 / PE 36 / PB 14 / Spd 15
Damage Capacity: 218 HP / 393 SDC / 865 MDC

Back Story: He grew-up in a small village where he was noted to be bigger and stronger than his age-mates at a very young age, and also "slow." He spent almost 10 years apprenticed to the Dwarven smith in town, and after he died, wandered around for a year or so until he met an elf whom took him under his wing, and taught him about astronomy (and a few other domestic / entertainment / practical skills). About 2-3 years later the elf was killed, and the character has been wandering on his MDC mountain bike ever since, carrying something like half a metric tonne of equipment and scrap (toys).

Character Notes: The character is retarted (slightly), and despite being in his early 20's, has the mentality of someone about 5-6 years old.
The character will EXPLICITLY not hurt anyone deliberately, unless you hurt/kill one of his friends in front of him, OR, you harm his teddy bear, OR you actually manage to badly hurt him (do over 1D6x10 damage that can penetrate his invulnerability) while toe-to-toe (or in a direct line of sight, since even HE is not THAT stupid!). Outside of that, he will think you are PLAYING, and react accordingly ("Tag, you're it!" - >smack<, as he does 2D4x10 damage, after all, you're wearing armour, so he CAN'T hurt you!), and obviously (laughing, giggling, acting like a young child), all the while being friendly!
Also, because of the power combo, while he has the capacity to do 3D6x10+6 damage with a power blow...he cannot, because he doesn't know he can!
He is, helpful, friendly, happy, and submissive...and carries a 500lb MDC sledge hammer - he's a smith after all! ;)

I created him as a combination "pack-mule" and foil to keep the party in line ("Oh God...he's wandered off again!") and to have some fun with! :D



Hmmm... I like the concept, background, and intended role in the party. If I were GMing I'd probably allow the character in principle.

However, I don't know that you'd really want BOTH Extraordinary PE and Healing Factor; it's kind of redundant with Invulnerability. I'd probably require you to pick just one of the two and then choose a different power (maybe Enhanced Leaping, with a 2,480 ft distance).

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:12 pm
  

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Palladin

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Borast wrote:
(Slightly) off-topic, but...

I have a Rifts vagabond character that is super endowed (get out of the gutter boys and girls...)

Would you consider the following combination "Munchkin" (I already know the answer, but anyway...)

Supernatural PS (comes out to 62)
Natural Combat Ability
Invulnerability

Extraordinary PE
Healing Factor
Supervision: Nightvision




Now that the resounding "YES" has reverberated around the megaverse...

Here are his stats: IQ 7 / ME 29 / MA 20 / PS(S) 62 / PP 19 / PE 36 / PB 14 / Spd 15
Damage Capacity: 218 HP / 393 SDC / 865 MDC

Back Story: He grew-up in a small village where he was noted to be bigger and stronger than his age-mates at a very young age, and also "slow." He spent almost 10 years apprenticed to the Dwarven smith in town, and after he died, wandered around for a year or so until he met an elf whom took him under his wing, and taught him about astronomy (and a few other domestic / entertainment / practical skills). About 2-3 years later the elf was killed, and the character has been wandering on his MDC mountain bike ever since, carrying something like half a metric tonne of equipment and scrap (toys).

Character Notes: The character is retarted (slightly), and despite being in his early 20's, has the mentality of someone about 5-6 years old.
The character will EXPLICITLY not hurt anyone deliberately, unless you hurt/kill one of his friends in front of him, OR, you harm his teddy bear, OR you actually manage to badly hurt him (do over 1D6x10 damage that can penetrate his invulnerability) while toe-to-toe (or in a direct line of sight, since even HE is not THAT stupid!). Outside of that, he will think you are PLAYING, and react accordingly ("Tag, you're it!" - >smack<, as he does 2D4x10 damage, after all, you're wearing armour, so he CAN'T hurt you!), and obviously (laughing, giggling, acting like a young child), all the while being friendly!
Also, because of the power combo, while he has the capacity to do 3D6x10+6 damage with a power blow...he cannot, because he doesn't know he can!
He is, helpful, friendly, happy, and submissive...and carries a 500lb MDC sledge hammer - he's a smith after all! ;)

I created him as a combination "pack-mule" and foil to keep the party in line ("Oh God...he's wandered off again!") and to have some fun with! :D


To me it would depend on two things. One what level of game I am running which means what are the power levels of the rest of the group? Secondly, who is playing him? Is it someone that can pull it off? If I knew you and knew you to be able to play in character then I would allow it in a heart beat as I would if the rest of the group was in a similar power level.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:47 pm
  

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Champion

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[quote="Preacher
To me it would depend on two things. One what level of game I am running which means what are the power levels of the rest of the group? Secondly, who is playing him? Is it someone that can pull it off? If I knew you and knew you to be able to play in character then I would allow it in a heart beat as I would if the rest of the group was in a similar power level.[/quote]

Exactly the road to hell is paved with what again?

but I've heard alot of excuses, alot of "good roleplaying" character ideas that "just happened to be powerful"

"They spent millions of dollars training this spy, they want to make sure their investement doesn't die, that's why he has invulnerbility" - sure it's not as good an explanation\reason\excuse as yours but he tries (retro actively).

but really it's all in the execution of your ideas, if you were able to stick to the theme of the character more power to you . . . It's sad that if I were the GM you probably wouldn't get the chance . . . cause I don't know you, and I can't really trust your intentions.

But straying back towards the power of invulnerbility, my biggest problem isn't that as a GM I can't challenge\hurt the invunlerable character, it's that I have to tailor the story towards doing so. A) I'm "picking on" a character cause he choose a power I didn't like B) Everyone else has to deal with a storyline\enemy\whatever that is designed to deal with Invulnerable boy


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:01 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:42 am
Posts: 283
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
ApocalypseZero wrote:
Quote:
So you would limit the combo but not the powers?!? (That's just how I am reading it.)



Well, let's talk character concept, here...

Flight: wingless? Ok

Extraordinary PP & Hearing?

Why would such character need all the dodge bonuses? As for the strike bonuses, with such a character, I would spend my time doing simultaneous attacks :)

The combo gives him a ridiculous parry/dodge, he moves first 50% of the time. You have a hard time hitting him, and when you do, it does nothing.

So... yes, I would restrict the combo, mainly because I see it as a silly one. But that's just me. I have a tendency of asking my players what they want theior character to be able to do before bringing out the dice...

Invulnerability + strectching can be fun, though.... :)
Or invulnerability + spin at extraordinary speed... and you happen to be a small hairy alien with claws & a speech impediment, tearing your way through obstacles... :)

_________________
=============================
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Tyciol:
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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:53 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 pm
Posts: 1972
Location: Canada
Jaegermeister wrote:
Borast wrote:
(Slightly) off-topic, but...

I have a Rifts vagabond character that is super endowed (get out of the gutter boys and girls...)

Would you consider the following combination "Munchkin" (I already know the answer, but anyway...)

Supernatural PS (comes out to 62)
Natural Combat Ability
Invulnerability

Extraordinary PE
Healing Factor
Supervision: Nightvision



If playing in Rifts, why have Healing Factor when you have Invulnerability when Invulnerability in a MDC environment gives you a better Regeneration? No drugs, toxins, or poisons is really going to fell an UBER MDC being that regenerates every turn. There are other powers that are better than the bonuses to PE and (HP & SDC) which are converted to MDC. The +3 saves to magic & psionics - questionable. I wouldn't do it.


ACTUALLY...

I gave him both to take the "does not fatigue" as opposed to the 1/10th fatigue rate for Extraordinary PE. The "super healing" twice a day comes in handy too...mind you, he would have to be reminded to use it... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:13 am
  

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Knight

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DWK wrote: "Or invulnerability + spin at extraordinary speed... and you happen to be a small hairy alien with claws & a speech impediment, tearing your way through obstacles... "

:lol: :lol: :lol: You have a devious mind DWK I like the concept. 8-) I could just picture the news report. Tasmanian Devil sighted downtown. He is armed and considered agitated. More news later in the hour.


AND

"So... yes, I would restrict the combo, mainly because I see it as a silly one. But that's just me. I have a tendency of asking my players what they want theior character to be able to do before bringing out the dice... "

I agree if the concept is silly or just an obvious way to make an uber character than I would refuse too. I may allow it if the player had a good background for the power combo. At the very least make sure it the type of player you can trust with that particular power combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:59 am
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:06 am
Posts: 400
I don't think you really CAN call Invulnerability too much in Rifts. Even with a smart character. Limiting him by not letting him have Armor (Doesn't need it.). After all, even Invulnerable mutants would have a rough time against a dragon or even a Glitterboy (Just strangle him.) for that matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:03 am
  

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Champion

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Location: The Servodome, in downtown Servotopia
Borast wrote:
I gave him both to take the "does not fatigue" as opposed to the 1/10th fatigue rate for Extraordinary PE. The "super healing" twice a day comes in handy too...mind you, he would have to be reminded to use it... :lol:


That's the main reason I would have required you pick either Healing Factor OR Extraordinary PE, not both. Healing Factor's "does not fatigue" makes the 1/10th fatigue from Extraordinary PE kinda pointless. Of course, don't forget that Supernatural Strength also gives you that 1/10th fatigue as well...

I still would recommend switching Extraordinary PE out for Enhanced Leaping. Think about how easy it would be for him to wander off... or getting that crashed SAMAS down from the top of the tree ("Hey George, could you jump up there and get that toy for me -- PLEASE????").

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US <Uncle> saves the day again. -- RockJock
And Servo has engineered another good idea. -- Sentinel


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it....
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:27 am
  

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Champion

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Uncle Servo wrote:
Borast wrote:
I gave him both to take the "does not fatigue" as opposed to the 1/10th fatigue rate for Extraordinary PE. The "super healing" twice a day comes in handy too...mind you, he would have to be reminded to use it... :lol:


That's the main reason I would have required you pick either Healing Factor OR Extraordinary PE, not both. Healing Factor's "does not fatigue" makes the 1/10th fatigue from Extraordinary PE kinda pointless. Of course, don't forget that Supernatural Strength also gives you that 1/10th fatigue as well...

I still would recommend switching Extraordinary PE out for Enhanced Leaping. Think about how easy it would be for him to wander off... or getting that crashed SAMAS down from the top of the tree ("Hey George, could you jump up there and get that toy for me -- PLEASE????").


"Ok..." >RIP< :shock: >CRASH< >RUSTLE< "Here go...wan I should put growy thing back in ground?" :erm:


Besides another reason I gave him both was for the PE and saves bonuses. :angel: Damn he goes through clothes like you wouldn't believe, and oh, by the way... because of his size, he's outside the "normal" range of available armours. When he "wants to be like" someone, he starts wearing makeshift stuff that has almost no protective value per se... :lol:

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