Board index » SDC Worlds » Heroes Unlimited™

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:15 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:22 am
Posts: 128
Just wondering where the line begins and ends. For examples from comics, out of daredevil, batman, blade, and Punisher which of them or do all fall as anti-heroes or where do you think they fall in the scale?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:23 pm
  

Adventurer

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:49 am
Posts: 499
Location: Garden of Dreams
Comment: I don't know what i'm doing, that's for realities GM to figure out
Daredevil....from what little I know...anti hero? he does murder people I believe. Batman depends on what generation you are, I've heard of ones were he makes the punisher look kind and then you have "bop" "crash" "blam" batman who is obviously hero...blade is antihero, murders without a bat of an eye, then again from his point of view this is a war vs things that eat us so from that point of view a hero? punisher from my understanding is antihero nearly personified, kill them all, do whatever you need to to find them and put them down make them afraid to be criminals.

then again, this is all based on my limited knowledge and they were all compared to one simple line, do they murder their foes or bring them in alive


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:08 am
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:48 pm
Posts: 795
Location: Top Secret Goverment Thinktank
Nightmartree wrote:
Daredevil....from what little I know...anti hero? he does murder people I believe. Batman depends on what generation you are, I've heard of ones were he makes the punisher look kind and then you have "bop" "crash" "blam" batman who is obviously hero...blade is antihero, murders without a bat of an eye, then again from his point of view this is a war vs things that eat us so from that point of view a hero? punisher from my understanding is antihero nearly personified, kill them all, do whatever you need to to find them and put them down make them afraid to be criminals.

then again, this is all based on my limited knowledge and they were all compared to one simple line, do they murder their foes or bring them in alive


That is put very well, Daredevil and Batman tend to fall into the Vigilante category because they will beat suspects but actively try to avoid killing. Blade and Punisher have no qualms about killing. Anti-Heroes tend to have little regard for any moral code but their own. In the Palladium alignment system they would be Aberrant since Siembieda doesn't have an amoral neutral

_________________
Veni Vidi Vici
Una Salus Victis Nullam Sperare Salutem
Sic vis pacem, Para bellum
Audentes fortuna iuvat
O Tolmon Nika
Oderint Dum Metuant


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:55 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:22 am
Posts: 128
SpiritInterface wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:
Daredevil....from what little I know...anti hero? he does murder people I believe. Batman depends on what generation you are, I've heard of ones were he makes the punisher look kind and then you have "bop" "crash" "blam" batman who is obviously hero...blade is antihero, murders without a bat of an eye, then again from his point of view this is a war vs things that eat us so from that point of view a hero? punisher from my understanding is antihero nearly personified, kill them all, do whatever you need to to find them and put them down make them afraid to be criminals.

then again, this is all based on my limited knowledge and they were all compared to one simple line, do they murder their foes or bring them in alive


That is put very well, Daredevil and Batman tend to fall into the Vigilante category because they will beat suspects but actively try to avoid killing. Blade and Punisher have no qualms about killing. Anti-Heroes tend to have little regard for any moral code but their own. In the Palladium alignment system they would be Aberrant since Siembieda doesn't have an amoral neutral

So then daredevil and batman would be heroes and blade and punisher being anti-heroes?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:13 am
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:48 pm
Posts: 795
Location: Top Secret Goverment Thinktank
Thom001 wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:
Daredevil....from what little I know...anti hero? he does murder people I believe. Batman depends on what generation you are, I've heard of ones were he makes the punisher look kind and then you have "bop" "crash" "blam" batman who is obviously hero...blade is antihero, murders without a bat of an eye, then again from his point of view this is a war vs things that eat us so from that point of view a hero? punisher from my understanding is antihero nearly personified, kill them all, do whatever you need to to find them and put them down make them afraid to be criminals.

then again, this is all based on my limited knowledge and they were all compared to one simple line, do they murder their foes or bring them in alive


That is put very well, Daredevil and Batman tend to fall into the Vigilante category because they will beat suspects but actively try to avoid killing. Blade and Punisher have no qualms about killing. Anti-Heroes tend to have little regard for any moral code but their own. In the Palladium alignment system they would be Aberrant since Siembieda doesn't have an amoral neutral

So then daredevil and batman would be heroes and blade and punisher being anti-heroes?


In a black and white sense yes.
In a graduated scale with heroes as a 10 and villains being a 1. Superman would be a 10, Daredevil would be 7, Batman would be a 6, while Blade would be a 4 and Punisher would be a 3, Joker would be a 1.

_________________
Veni Vidi Vici
Una Salus Victis Nullam Sperare Salutem
Sic vis pacem, Para bellum
Audentes fortuna iuvat
O Tolmon Nika
Oderint Dum Metuant


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:31 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:22 am
Posts: 128
SpiritInterface wrote:
Thom001 wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:
Daredevil....from what little I know...anti hero? he does murder people I believe. Batman depends on what generation you are, I've heard of ones were he makes the punisher look kind and then you have "bop" "crash" "blam" batman who is obviously hero...blade is antihero, murders without a bat of an eye, then again from his point of view this is a war vs things that eat us so from that point of view a hero? punisher from my understanding is antihero nearly personified, kill them all, do whatever you need to to find them and put them down make them afraid to be criminals.

then again, this is all based on my limited knowledge and they were all compared to one simple line, do they murder their foes or bring them in alive


That is put very well, Daredevil and Batman tend to fall into the Vigilante category because they will beat suspects but actively try to avoid killing. Blade and Punisher have no qualms about killing. Anti-Heroes tend to have little regard for any moral code but their own. In the Palladium alignment system they would be Aberrant since Siembieda doesn't have an amoral neutral

So then daredevil and batman would be heroes and blade and punisher being anti-heroes?


In a black and white sense yes.
In a graduated scale with heroes as a 10 and villains being a 1. Superman would be a 10, Daredevil would be 7, Batman would be a 6, while Blade would be a 4 and Punisher would be a 3, Joker would be a 1.
Ok, that makes sense.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:58 am
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 12:20 am
Posts: 348
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Thom001 wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Thom001 wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:
Daredevil....from what little I know...anti hero? he does murder people I believe. Batman depends on what generation you are, I've heard of ones were he makes the punisher look kind and then you have "bop" "crash" "blam" batman who is obviously hero...blade is antihero, murders without a bat of an eye, then again from his point of view this is a war vs things that eat us so from that point of view a hero? punisher from my understanding is antihero nearly personified, kill them all, do whatever you need to to find them and put them down make them afraid to be criminals.

then again, this is all based on my limited knowledge and they were all compared to one simple line, do they murder their foes or bring them in alive


That is put very well, Daredevil and Batman tend to fall into the Vigilante category because they will beat suspects but actively try to avoid killing. Blade and Punisher have no qualms about killing. Anti-Heroes tend to have little regard for any moral code but their own. In the Palladium alignment system they would be Aberrant since Siembieda doesn't have an amoral neutral

So then daredevil and batman would be heroes and blade and punisher being anti-heroes?


In a black and white sense yes.
In a graduated scale with heroes as a 10 and villains being a 1. Superman would be a 10, Daredevil would be 7, Batman would be a 6, while Blade would be a 4 and Punisher would be a 3, Joker would be a 1.
Ok, that makes sense.

Why would the Joker even qualify as a 1? Wouldn't he flip to the villain side of the coin? I'm not a huge comic book buff, so maybe I don't fully understand (which is probably the case). I just see more of a difference between the Punisher and the Joker than a 4 (Punisher) and a 1 (Joker).

_________________
Image


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:56 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10418
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Thom001 wrote:
Just wondering where the line begins and ends. For examples from comics, out of daredevil, batman, blade, and Punisher which of them or do all fall as anti-heroes or where do you think they fall in the scale?

They are ALL anti-heroes.

An anti-hero is when the protagonist in the story/movie/comic is lacking in some of the normally expected heroic virtues. They still do the 'right thing' (some times, or try, or get close) but they do it for the wrong reasons, or the wrong way.

Vigilante's are the classic anti-hero. They are the 'good guy' that breaks the law to uphold it. They decide that they are above the law, that rights don't apply to people if they say they don't. They place themselves above society. In essence they are really megalomaniacs one and all. But they are still battling crime (or at least what they see as crime), and out fighting the good fight.

The unwilling hero or bigger bad is another classic. This is the Suicide Squad or Snake Pliskin who is a bad person that is sent up against an even worse threat or is coerced into helping in exchange for something.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:46 pm
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:22 am
Posts: 128
Ok, I always wondered if batman did or did not fall into hero or anti-hero. And conversely I always considered that Punisher may actually be a villain like porter from payback.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:07 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10418
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Thom001 wrote:
Ok, I always wondered if batman did or did not fall into hero or anti-hero. And conversely I always considered that Punisher may actually be a villain like porter from payback.

Oh yea, Punisher is most definitely a villain.
he is a serial killer no doubt.
He kills people left and right for the smallest crime, regardless of the actual penalty. He doesn't care how many other innocents HE kills just as long as he gets to avenge HIS family he is fine with murdering anyone else's family. Only he matters.
Punisher is 100% a villain.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:26 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10766
eliakon wrote:
Thom001 wrote:
Ok, I always wondered if batman did or did not fall into hero or anti-hero. And conversely I always considered that Punisher may actually be a villain like porter from payback.


Oh yea, Punisher is most definitely a villain.
he is a serial killer no doubt.
He kills people left and right for the smallest crime, regardless of the actual penalty. He doesn't care how many other innocents HE kills just as long as he gets to avenge HIS family he is fine with murdering anyone else's family. Only he matters.
Punisher is 100% a villain.


While he's a serial killer and mass murderer and villain for sure he doesn't go around killing innocents or picking people off for the smallest crimes (the issue that happened in was quickly retconned into being the result of Punisher being drugged). He's Aberrant alignment where his code is to kill proven villains like drug dealers or rapists or other murderers, he's not going to go and gun down innocents and behave like the criminals that murdered his family.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:03 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 3497
Location: Nashville.....ish....
"An antihero, or antiheroine, is a protagonist in a story who lacks conventional heroic qualities and attributes such as idealism, courage, and morality."

Based on that definition the whole list fits as antiheroes. They all live in a dark world, and do what they think is needed to make the world a better place, even just for others, and not themselves. I don't think killing is a hardline to determine if a character is an antihero or not. A hero killing someone by accident, or as the only choice in the situation doesn't make them an automatic antihero. By the same token, leaving bad guys crippled and maimed instead of dead doesn't save one from the antihero tag.


Daredevil tortures, cripples, and occasionally kills. He definitely has courage, but lacks conventional morality, and his idealism is dead, at least in most versions. Batman is very similar, and they both think in the back of their minds that they are keeping the evil out of their protectorate, or at least keeping the rats down to give normal people a chance.

The Punisher kills because he doesn't believe badguys can be stopped by the justice system, or the rules. He doesn't even get courage in my book because he wants to die, but wants to take as many bad guys with him as possible. Most of the time he doesn't kill say a low level drug user, but breaks his arm to go up the food chain. Somewhat it depends on the version of Frank we are talking about, but he doesn't get a kick out of killing or torturing the way The Joker, Tomestone, or Jigsaw do.

Blade is a harder one to me, because he tends to deal with straight up evil. A drug lord might be a really, really bad dude, but still a good dad. Vampires are not good on any level, nor are those who decide to help them. As for others, like thrals he sees that he is putting them out of their misery, and in many cases he is. I would still consider Blade an antihero, but as much because he really does live in a world with different morals than the rest of the hero community around him.


My two cents.

_________________
RockJock, holder of the mighty Rune Rock Hammer!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:57 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10418
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Thom001 wrote:
Ok, I always wondered if batman did or did not fall into hero or anti-hero. And conversely I always considered that Punisher may actually be a villain like porter from payback.


Oh yea, Punisher is most definitely a villain.
he is a serial killer no doubt.
He kills people left and right for the smallest crime, regardless of the actual penalty. He doesn't care how many other innocents HE kills just as long as he gets to avenge HIS family he is fine with murdering anyone else's family. Only he matters.
Punisher is 100% a villain.


While he's a serial killer and mass murderer and villain for sure he doesn't go around killing innocents or picking people off for the smallest crimes (the issue that happened in was quickly retconned into being the result of Punisher being drugged). He's Aberrant alignment where his code is to kill proven villains like drug dealers or rapists or other murderers, he's not going to go and gun down innocents and behave like the criminals that murdered his family.

I still remember the first and last issue of the Punisher I ever read as a kid. He had no problem shooting up a warehouse on the docks being used for drug smuggling. Note that the people in the warehouse were not smugglers, just the guy running it is. He shoots up half the people, and then blows up the warehouse with thermite bombs. As he is driving off you see a huge fire burning.
The rest of those people then are innocents. Not to mention the others on the docks that just got blown up or burned to death, or had their livelyhoods destroyed.

<innocent kid> "mommy when is daddy coming home?"
<innocent wife> *transfixed with horror watching the TV as her husbands work place burns down*

So yeah. He kills innocents.
He just likes to pretend that he doesn't.
But you can't blow things up in cities and not have casualties.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:32 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 12:20 am
Posts: 348
Location: Las Vegas, NV
eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Thom001 wrote:
Ok, I always wondered if batman did or did not fall into hero or anti-hero. And conversely I always considered that Punisher may actually be a villain like porter from payback.


Oh yea, Punisher is most definitely a villain.
he is a serial killer no doubt.
He kills people left and right for the smallest crime, regardless of the actual penalty. He doesn't care how many other innocents HE kills just as long as he gets to avenge HIS family he is fine with murdering anyone else's family. Only he matters.
Punisher is 100% a villain.


While he's a serial killer and mass murderer and villain for sure he doesn't go around killing innocents or picking people off for the smallest crimes (the issue that happened in was quickly retconned into being the result of Punisher being drugged). He's Aberrant alignment where his code is to kill proven villains like drug dealers or rapists or other murderers, he's not going to go and gun down innocents and behave like the criminals that murdered his family.

I still remember the first and last issue of the Punisher I ever read as a kid. He had no problem shooting up a warehouse on the docks being used for drug smuggling. Note that the people in the warehouse were not smugglers, just the guy running it is. He shoots up half the people, and then blows up the warehouse with thermite bombs. As he is driving off you see a huge fire burning.
The rest of those people then are innocents. Not to mention the others on the docks that just got blown up or burned to death, or had their livelyhoods destroyed.

<innocent kid> "mommy when is daddy coming home?"
<innocent wife> *transfixed with horror watching the TV as her husbands work place burns down*

So yeah. He kills innocents.
He just likes to pretend that he doesn't.
But you can't blow things up in cities and not have casualties.

I think it might be difficult to have this discussion when there's different versions of the same character floating around out there. It can be confusing. Eliakon is right in that a guy who torches the warehouse with no regard for innocents is not a good guy. I would have also put those comics down and never picked them up again. On the other hand, because I'm not a comic book reader, my exposure to Punisher has been through movies. One of my favorite vigilante/hero movies was the 2004 version with Thomas Jane as The Punisher and John Travolta as the bad guy.

You can say the same with Batman. On one extreme, you have the Adam West character who's actually "deputized", so to speak, by the commissioner. Then you move into the Michael Keaton Batman who is more the vigilante. Then he morphs into someone who actually tortures bad guys as the more recent versions show. I guess you just pick the version you want or are comfortable with and stick with that. Ya, the Adam West version is quite cheesy, but our family (with the 3 young kids) has a good time watching those DVDs and they're always good for a laugh. Plus, there's no mistaking good from bad or right from wrong.

I tried to get my kids interested in comics a year or so ago, although I never was myself when growing up. We went to the comic store and I was shocked at how dark, morbid, graphic, and gorey they were. The same super heroes I grew up watching in cartoons in the 80's were most definitely not the same ones depicted in the comics. It truly broke my heart. We were able to find some Spider-Man ones designed for young readers and some Scooby Doo ones for my son, but that was about it. The girls also picked up some Scooby Doo ones and some My Little Pony ones they wanted, but that was about it. Either nothing else was suitable fpr their ages or they just showed no interest. I gave up on that endeavor. It's too bad. I wonder if the comic book industry knows what it's become or if they even care? When the thought crosses my mind that perhaps I'm the one who's out of touch with the comics, it's quickly followed by me thinking, "Good!"

_________________
Image


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group