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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:17 pm
  

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Knight

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HU2p210 mentions robots can have AR 17 maximum, though the reinforced pilot's compartment can have AR 19 and uses the "robot A.R. rules". I believe this refers to the "natural armor rating" on page 18, an expansion of the basic AR rules on page 17, as 18 says:
    Some forms of armor are vastly superior to simple body armor. Such armors include vehicle armor, robot armor, and Natural
    Armor.
then also:
    a roll to strike that falls under the A.R. does hit, but inflicts no damage

Page 66 also mentions NAR but doesn't specify robots.

Weird as it seems this appears to mean that a 1D4 damage human punch, if rolling a modified 20, can damage a pilot's compartment, or damage even the strongest robot on modified 18-20.

I figure bonuses do help with this, so someone with +1 to strike due to PP and no penalties, could damage the RPC on a 19 or 20.

I figure penalties similarly hinder this, so if someone rolled a 19 (normally enough to damage a robot with natural AR 17) that if they had -3 to strike, the modified 16 would not surpass the NAR and so they would inflict no damage.

Page 12 imparts natural 20s a special property. "A natural 20 never misses unless one's opponent also rolls a natural 20". I have no argument with this. But I will note that a lack of missing (a presence of hitting) is a distinct idea from surpassing AR. Being able to hit someone is not the same as surpassing their AR.

A second property of natural 20s is "A natural 20 also does double damage". This resembles text on page 65 which says "Critical strikes do double damage." A connection is then made between pg 12 / page 65, with the explanation "A natural, unmodified 20 is always a critical strike.". I figure this does not stack (otherwise x2 x 2 would be a x4 multiplier) and that a natural 20 being a critical strike is WHY page 12 says it does double damage, rather than it being critical on top of doubled.

Page 67's Death Blow does have a unique situation where you can damage someone with natural AR without surpassing it:
    even if beneath the Natural A.R., the death blow will inflict S.D.C. damage

Far as I know this would not apply to vehicles or robots though since they are not alive.

Page 69 gives Jump Kick as an example of a Critical Strike: "The advantage of a jump kick is that it works as a critical strike"

I propose that being a critical strike and inflicting double damage does not mean guaranteed damage, and that the outcome of damage is still dependent on normal rules for doing so, such as surpassing AR.

Thus, a jump kick which is only 10 to hit, despite inflicting double damage due to being a critical strike, would not damage a pilot's compartment with NAR 19.

I also propose that if an attack is a critical hit due to a high natural number (for example an unmodified roll of 18, from hand to hand assassin 10th level) that this would also not be automatic damage. The unmodified 18 of an assassin would be a modified 20 due to the 1st level +2 to strike (or modified 22 from 12th's, or modified 24 from 15th's) so that would be enough to surpass the NAR 19 and damage the pilot's compartment... but penalties could possibly bring that down.

For example, page 33's "Drug Addiction"
    Withdrawn, quiet - spaced out. -3 to initiative, strike, parry and dodge

A 10th level HTH assassin who rolled an 18 (a critical strike) who was then +2 -3 would be a modified 17 to hit, not enough to surpass the AR 19 of the RPC. So I believe even though he has a critical strike (which doubles damage) that he still inflicts no damage.

I posit that natural 20s operate the same way. They are critical strikes, they inflict double damage, but that damage in regard to Armor Rating still follows standard rules of being assessed in regard to modifiers (penalties) and it is the modified result which is compared against the Armor Rating.

Natural 20s indeed have a special property of "always hit" and "cannot defend except with natural 20" which no other critical strikes have. However, armor ratings are not defenses, not rolls, and are a separate set of rules compared to active defenses like parries, dodges and entangles.

The ability to always hit an overall target, is not, I think, a guarantee that your hit is necessarily one effective enough to surpass AR.

So I think for example, the untrained human who punches a Robot Pilot's Compartment with a natural 20, while he doubles his dice and inflicts 2D4, would only apply that damage so long as his net modifiers are not negative.

A -1 to strike makes a natural 20 a modified 19. This does not mean it can be dodged with anything other than a natural 20. Nor would a -16 to strike mean it would miss (despite it being reduced to 4, which is normally a miss, if MODIFIED) because the automatic hit makes missing and non-20 defenses impossible.

But I do think the "always hit" / "rarely defend" issue lacks language applying to AR. I believe since the -1 to strike = modified 19 results in tying the NAR 19 of the RPC, that this means the human will not damage the RPC.

Does anyone think otherwise? This is something I have pondered discussnig zombie NAR over on the Dead Reign forums but it has a wider scope than that game, and HU is something which comes to mind as something strongly affected by it because it has high ARs for robots where even small penalties can result in 20s being lower than it.

Outside bots/vehicles, I can see this applying to APS Metal (pg 247, AR 17 like the strongest bot) and Stone (251, AR 16) although these two might be vulnerable to SDC damage from death blows, which could be incentive for them to wear body armor, assuming you could design some big enough.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:33 pm
  

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Monk

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Vehicular & Robotic & Natural AR are the same to the game mechanics.
*scans the rest of the post as sees nothing worthy of being commented on*

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:31 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The answer here is no different than the answer there.
Rehashing the same discussion will not change the result
A N20 always hits, and always does double damage.
Go directly to hurt.
Do Not Pass Go
Do Not Collect $200
Period
Dot
End of Story

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:28 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
The answer here is no different than the answer there.
Rehashing the same discussion will not change the result
A N20 always hits, and always does double damage.
Go directly to hurt.
Do Not Pass Go
Do Not Collect $200
Period
Dot
End of Story

Except when it doesn't, like a normal PS punch against an invulnerable character. So clearly a natural 20 does not always actually result in the inflicting of damage.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:48 pm
  

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Wanderer

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This feels about right... In the same way that say... a guy who rolls 18 init but has a +3 initiative modifier could beat a guy who rolled a nat 20 initiative who has no initiative bonus... or if say... a guy rolls a nat20 initiative but had a -3 penalty to initiative might lose initiative to a guy who rolled 18 with no penalties. Or a guy with no bonuses or penalties rolls nat 20 to strike, but then a guy with a +4 modifier to a roll of 17 would still dodge that nat 20 to strike. Modifiers can beat nat20s...


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:53 pm
  

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Vincent Takeda wrote:
This feels about right... In the same way that say... a guy who rolls 18 init but has a +3 initiative modifier could beat a guy who rolled a nat 20 initiative who has no initiative bonus... or if say... a guy rolls a nat20 initiative but had a -3 penalty to initiative might lose initiative to a guy who rolled 18 with no penalties. Or a guy with no bonuses or penalties rolls nat 20 to strike, but then a guy with a +4 modifier to a roll of 17 would still dodge that nat 20 to strike. Modifiers can beat nat20s...

Actually, a natural 20 to strike DOES beat a modified 21 to dodge, as that is a roll. What isn't 100% clear is if a natural 20 is not subject to penalties for the purpose of beating AR; we know that a natural 20 "hits", but there isn't (or at least I haven't yet found) a clear statement the unequivocally states that it beats AR if there are penalties to strike on the roll. I think that a natural 20 beating AR as well regardless of penalties is the intention of the rules (especially given the trend towards making armor easily beatable in SDC environments that Palladium generally exhibits in their rules as written), but I've yet to find a statement that makes that clear.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:07 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
dreicunan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The answer here is no different than the answer there.
Rehashing the same discussion will not change the result
A N20 always hits, and always does double damage.
Go directly to hurt.
Do Not Pass Go
Do Not Collect $200
Period
Dot
End of Story

Except when it doesn't, like a normal PS punch against an invulnerable character. So clearly a natural 20 does not always actually result in the inflicting of damage.

That is actually not relevant.
Attacking with an attack that can not harm the target in any way, shape or form ever is not really an 'attack'. It is simply 'color'.
To be an actual attack there has to be the capability of the attack to actually... attack.
Any attack that can damage the target though, will do so on a N20.
Straw men like Invulnerability, or Vampires, or MDC targets vs SDC weapons not withstanding.
Since the attack can damage the person with the at, it will damage them.
Just like if it could damage the invulnerable one, or the vampire, or the MDC armor or what have you it will.

As I pointed out in the other thread there is no "calculate modifiers and apply to AR first" step listed under the n20. Thus its rules are explicitly followed as written...which precludes the use of AR.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:59 pm
  

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Monk

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Eliakon is correct in his statements.
A nat. 20 always hits the target, and always does at least double damage, unless the damage is tripled by a h2h's/MAF's crit strike ability.
Yes, invulnerable char ignore the damage but the damage score is doubled anyways.The doubled damage is used for other things like knock back and knock down effects/status modifiers.

Combat roll modifiers are Moot when a nat 20 is rolled.

Remember when GMing your own games it is your responcibility to let your players know what you have changed from what canon says.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:29 pm
  

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I'm having trouble finding references to how natural 20's and modifiers are handled within the core books. Do they go into more detail in the gm's guide that i'm not seeing? Ninjas and superspies does say that the only thing that can parry or dodge a natural 20 is another natural 20 (bonuses dont apply) but I'm not finding a similar passage in HU2. Granted palladium is notorious for cut and paste across systems... That being said this seems like something that should have been pasted into HU2 somewhere...

Edit: Nevermind. Found it. Page 12.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:04 pm
  

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Monk

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HU2 MB page 12 (Listing 1st due to the forum this topic is in.)

RUE page 278
RGMG page 12
NB (NS) MB page 63
RT2 MB page 154
PFRPG2 MB page 13
Splicers page 213
SF page 46
BTS1 page 44
BTS2 MB page 131
Mechanoids Inv. Trilogy page 17

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:29 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Eliakon is correct in his statements.
A nat. 20 always hits the target, and always does at least double damage, unless the damage is tripled by a h2h's/MAF's crit strike ability.
Yes, invulnerable char ignore the damage but the damage score is doubled anyways.The doubled damage is used for other things like knock back and knock down effects/status modifiers.

Combat roll modifiers are Moot when a nat 20 is rolled.

Remember when GMing your own games it is your responcibility to let your players know what you have changed from what canon says.

Go ahead and quote a statement that actually says that "modifiers" are moot. So far all I've found are statements that bonuses aren't applied. I've not found any that say the penalties are ignored for all purposes, nor any that state unequivocally that a nat 20 automatically bypasses AR or either kind even if penalties would reduce the strike roll.

Keep in mind, I do think that your position is the rules as intended, but I can't find text yet that makes that unequivocally clear and makes Axelmania's position impossible to hold.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:41 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The answer here is no different than the answer there.
Rehashing the same discussion will not change the result
A N20 always hits, and always does double damage.
Go directly to hurt.
Do Not Pass Go
Do Not Collect $200
Period
Dot
End of Story

Except when it doesn't, like a normal PS punch against an invulnerable character. So clearly a natural 20 does not always actually result in the inflicting of damage.

That is actually not relevant.
Attacking with an attack that can not harm the target in any way, shape or form ever is not really an 'attack'. It is simply 'color'.
To be an actual attack there has to be the capability of the attack to actually... attack.
Any attack that can damage the target though, will do so on a N20.
Straw men like Invulnerability, or Vampires, or MDC targets vs SDC weapons not withstanding.
Since the attack can damage the person with the at, it will damage them.
Just like if it could damage the invulnerable one, or the vampire, or the MDC armor or what have you it will.

As I pointed out in the other thread there is no "calculate modifiers and apply to AR first" step listed under the n20. Thus its rules are explicitly followed as written...which precludes the use of AR.

An attack that can't damage isn't actually an attack. Does that mean that it doesn't use up one of your attacks that melee? Do you count the non-attack attack as a non-combat action? :D

Bringing up issues like invulnerability or vampires isn't a strawman (by definition!), nor would it be irrelevant when people are making the argument that they always inflict double damage, which is what you did when you said "Go directly to hurt" earlier in the thread. Sometimes you don't go directly to hurt.

Find a statement that says that no modifiers apply to a natural 20, as opposed to no bonuses, and you'll have proven something. Nothing in the text that I've found makes the interpretation that you do apply penalties to see if it beats AR (of any kind) an impossibility, even though I think that the intention is that it is supposed to beat it automatically in sdc combat.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:00 am
  

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Knight

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Vincent Takeda wrote:
This feels about right... In the same way that say... a guy who rolls 18 init but has a +3 initiative modifier could beat a guy who rolled a nat 20 initiative who has no initiative bonus... or if say... a guy rolls a nat20 initiative but had a -3 penalty to initiative might lose initiative to a guy who rolled 18 with no penalties. Or a guy with no bonuses or penalties rolls nat 20 to strike, but then a guy with a +4 modifier to a roll of 17 would still dodge that nat 20 to strike. Modifiers can beat nat20s...


I don't know if a natural 20 on initiative actually does anything, I've only seen it applied to strikes and defenses.

dreicunan wrote:
I think that a natural 20 beating AR as well regardless of penalties is the intention of the rules

If it were, it would have been easy to mention "and surpasses all armor ratings".

eliakon wrote:
Attacking with an attack that can not harm the target in any way, shape or form ever is not really an 'attack'. It is simply 'color'.

This is false. It is still an attack.

eliakon wrote:
To be an actual attack there has to be the capability of the attack to actually... attack.

There is that capability. Attacks do not have to cause damage. Disarm, for example, can be done as an attack, and flips/tackles can be done to cause knockdown even if they cannot cause damage.

An attack is still made, an attack is still rolled, you still ruin your Invisibility Superior, even if yours is an attack incapable of damaging.

eliakon wrote:
Any attack that can damage the target though, will do so on a N20.

Source in HU for this please.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Eliakon is correct in his statements.
A nat. 20 always hits the target, and always does at least double damage, unless the damage is tripled by a h2h's/MAF's crit strike ability.
Yes, invulnerable char ignore the damage but the damage score is doubled anyways.The doubled damage is used for other things like knock back and knock down effects/status modifiers.

Combat roll modifiers are Moot when a nat 20 is rolled.

Drew I am looking for actual text to support these assertions, this just reads like personal opinion. Show what you are interpreting with page/excerpt as I did please.

Keep in mind the point I'm making about critical hits.

If natural 20s saying they do double damage means they bypass AR for free, then jump kicks saying they do double damage must also mean they bypass AR for free.

Both have statements about inflicting double damage, after all, if that was actually enough.

Or, you can acknowledge the 1st stage of "no damage" which is then doubled to still be no damage.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:23 am
  

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@Axelmania: I don't disagree that it would have been an easy line to insert a statement to that effect or to just says that a natural 20 is not subject to modifiers of any kind. I've actually been surprised by the lack of a statement to that effect anywhere that I have looked so far. Another way to make it clear would be a statement saying that it beats all rolls and target numbers.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:36 pm
  

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All the rules about Nat 20s state the same thing. Automatically hits and the damage is doubled. There is no rules in them to allow for the core nat 20 rules to be modified before the application of the auto-hit and the doubling of the damage.
Example:
a fighter pilot is totally drunk and rolls a nat 20 to hit with his auto-cannon. The shot hits because a nat 20 auto-hits....the damage done is doubled because a nat 20 does double damage.

None of the 'is drunk' (or other) modifiers effect the nat 20 because they would have to be applied after the results of the nat 20 are applied. You could think of it that the nat 20 reperesents the ;) "dice gods" ;) smiling on the character making him/her beat the odds that they would normally be subject to.

Axelmania wrote:
Keep in mind the point I'm making about critical hits.

If natural 20s saying they do double damage means they bypass AR for free, then jump kicks saying they do double damage must also mean they bypass AR for free.

Both have statements about inflicting double damage, after all, if that was actually enough.

Or, you can acknowledge the 1st stage of "no damage" which is then doubled to still be no damage.

Nat 20s don't bypass (Body Armor) AR ""for free"". They beats the (Body Armor) AR because the nat 20 beats the (body armor) AR under the normal AR rules....what you said about jump kicks is just plain nonsense. It does not follow the canon text for overcoming (Body Armor) AR.

Note that I added the " (Body Armor)" to the above text so it would be clear which type of AR that is being talked about.

Even though PB's AR rules are one of the murky rules in the PB canons I would like for KS to make crystal clear, your questions about them are already covered by the canon (body armor) AR rules already. In multiple places.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:45 pm
  

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Knight

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
All the rules about Nat 20s state the same thing. Automatically hits and the damage is doubled. There is no rules in them to allow for the core nat 20 rules to be modified before the application of the auto-hit and the doubling of the damage.

Automatically hits is irrelevant to bypassing AR, you can hit someone without bypassing their AR.

All the rules about critical hits state the same thing: the damage is doubled.

Where are you getting the idea that statements about doubling damage mean that damage is guaranteed?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nat 20s don't bypass (Body Armor) AR ""for free"". They beats the (Body Armor) AR because the nat 20 beats the (body armor) AR under the normal AR rules....

That is true if it is higher than the AR.

It is possible to have ARs higher than 20 or have a natural 20 modified to be less by penalties though, which could result in it being less than or tying armor rating, and not bypassing it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
what you said about jump kicks is just plain nonsense. It does not follow the canon text for overcoming (Body Armor) AR.

My point is that this is nonsense using the same logic as your own nonsense. You are arguing that the way critical hits (natural 20s and jump kicks, for example) talk about doubled damage somehow means damage is guaranteed by critical hits.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
your questions about them are already covered by the canon rules already. In multiple places.

We are never told that natural 20s will bypass AR if they do not exceed AR, or that penalties do not apply to create modified rolls.

I believe the canon rules tell us that you damage armor SDC if you fail to roll above AR, or do nothing at all if you fail to roll above NAR. Modifications to damage (halving, doubling) don't really matter if you begin with 0.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:53 pm
  

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Monk

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nat 20s don't bypass (Body Armor) AR ""for free"". They beats the (Body Armor) AR because the nat 20 beats the (body armor) AR under the normal AR rules....

That is true if it is higher than the AR.

It is possible to have ARs higher than 20 or have a natural 20 modified to be less by penalties though, which could result in it being less than or tying armor rating, and not bypassing it.

The highest (body armor) AR that I know of off hand is 18. Which Nat 20's beat w/o any specialness.

If you have found in the HU 2nd ed books (or elsewhere), Body Armor with an AR greater then 20, then you need to site the location of it. Otherwise your statements about (BA)AR being able to be more then 18 is just blowing smoke to make you argument with smoke and mirrors.
---------------
Talking about crit hits generally.
✶If the h2h/MAF has a crit strike option, then if the nat die roll is high enough the strike does double damage, no matter what any other modifier may say.
✶If the move of a h2h or MAF says that it automatically has a crit strike if it connects, then if it connects it does double damage.
✶If there are multiple crits applied to a single attack, each crit only adds another base damage to the total damage.
example: if a player does a jump/leap attack that connects, and the roll was a nat 20 and the base damage roll was 6 SD. Then the total damage for the attack is 18 SD.

In other words, to double the damage after doubling the damage is non-canon.
Or...
No x4 damage for just two crits on one attack.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:57 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
Drew I am looking for actual text to support these assertions, this just reads like personal opinion. Show what you are interpreting with page/excerpt as I did please.

Keep in mind the point I'm making about critical hits.

If natural 20s saying they do double damage means they bypass AR for free, then jump kicks saying they do double damage must also mean they bypass AR for free.

Both have statements about inflicting double damage, after all, if that was actually enough.

Or, you can acknowledge the 1st stage of "no damage" which is then doubled to still be no damage.

This though is not about critical hits it is a n20.
The n20 is different than a critical hit.
You can get a critical hit in many ways besides a n20, but you can only get a n20 by rolling a natural 20.
Which is why they do not say under natural 20 simply that it is an automatic critical hit. It instead says that it always hits and always does double damage. This is the same effect as a critical hit yes... but a jump kick does not always hit, nor does a jump kick have a rule that says that it always does double damage regardless. A jump kick requires you to beat the nAR just like any other regular attack. Unless you roll a n20 then you would roll your kick damage, double that because its a critical, then double that again because a n20 always does double the normal damage which in this case is the normal damage for a jump kick, and then apply it with out bothering to check for the armor rating. The defender may attempt to dodge or parry if they wish however they will have to roll a n20 themselves as this is listed as the only way to defend against a hit by a n20. I do not see "or just use strike penalties to make the attack miss" nor do I see "or just use penalties to make your AR soak it for you"
The reason is that we skipped part of the phase
In Step two of combat you roll to strike. Then after the roll you add any bonuses or penalties then you check to see if you hit or not.
However a n20 stops things at the roll stage and instantly moves to the you hit move on.
The next stage is "defender can attempt to roll a parry or dodge" under the special rules for the n20 strike only a n20 on the defence roll will stop it unless there is a special rule in play that explicitly says that it overrides the regular rule for AR.
This means that when you get to "check if strike penetrates the armor" you skipped the bonus and penalty stage so you come into this stage with a 20 showing. Unless the person has some how acquired a nAR20+ somehow then it will be penetrated
Then you roll damage. You always get to roll the damage, and its always done by calculating the normal damage for that attack taking into account all bonuses, penalties and modifications to determine what the damage would have been on a normal strike and then doubling that.
<edit> in the case of multiple doubling effects (a jump kick with a n20 you determine base damage then multiply by X3 etc)

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:15 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The highest (body armor) AR that I know of off hand is 18. Which Nat 20's beat w/o any specialness.

If you have found in the HU 2nd ed books (or elsewhere), Body Armor with an AR greater then 20, then you need to site the location of it.

20 to strike doesn't beat AR 20 so I wouldn't need greater than 20, just greater than 19.

One example of this is from Powers Unlimited. Page 30, Hardened Skin has a base NAR of 11 and gains +6 to AR by 12th level.

Page 28 Giant gives a base NAR of 8 and +6 to NAR by 13th level.

While bases do not stack, all bonuses DO stack unless otherwise indicated, so that is +12 to NAR by 13th level, and using the greater of the 2 bases of 11, that gives you a total NAR of 23.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the h2h/MAF has a crit strike option, then if the nat die roll is high enough the strike does double damage, no matter what any other modifier may say.

In cases where we are told it has to be natural, there are some cases (like One Shot in N&S) where a modified total determines crit.

Or cases where it's an auto-crit due to being a jump kick, a strike from behind, a power hit, etc.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the move of a h2h or MAF says that it automatically has a crit strike if it connects, then if it connects it does double damage.

If the modified total is still below AR, it will damage armor SDC in normal cases or do nothing at all in most NAR cases.

Death blow being the exception since it explicitly bypasses NAR at the cost of doing SDC instead of HP.

eliakon wrote:
This though is not about critical hits it is a n20.
The n20 is different than a critical hit.

Natural 20s have explicitly been called critical hits. They do double damage because they are critical hits and for NO OTHER REASON.

So any arguments you make about double damage MEANING something must apply to ALL critical hits.

Natural 20s would do x4 damage if you happen to think that the doubling is something separate from them being critical, since they would them be doubled on TOP of being critical.

eliakon wrote:
You can get a critical hit in many ways besides a n20, but you can only get a n20 by rolling a natural 20.

In related news, 1d20 indicates a die with 20 sides.

eliakon wrote:
Which is why they do not say under natural 20 simply that it is an automatic critical hit. It instead says that it always hits and always does double damage.

Apparently you missed my quote from page 65 of HU2 in the 1st in this thread:
    A natural, unmodified 20 is always a critical strike.
"

eliakon wrote:
This is the same effect as a critical hit yes... but a jump kick does not always hit, nor does a jump kick have a rule that says that it always does double damage regardless.

Neither natural 20s or other forms of critical hits have any text saying damage will happen regardless, just that any damage which happens will be doubled.

eliakon wrote:
Unless you roll a n20 then you would roll your kick damage, double that because its a critical, then double that again because a n20 always does double the normal damage which in this case is the normal damage for a jump kick, and then apply it with out bothering to check for the armor rating.

That's a great house rule which I would use, but that isn't how critical hits stack in Palladium.

Also from page 65 under "attacker rolls damage":
    Combined critical strikes, like a natural 20 and a jump attack, do triple damage

It's the 2nd sentence in the 3rd paragraph. My original quote was the 3rd, immediately after that.

eliakon wrote:
The defender may attempt to dodge or parry if they wish however they will have to roll a n20 themselves as this is listed as the only way to defend against a hit by a n20. I do not see "or just use strike penalties to make the attack miss" nor do I see "or just use penalties to make your AR soak it for you"

Strikes missing because of strike penalties, or strikes failing to surpass AR, are not a "defense".

When something says "no defense against surprise attacks" or similar, it is not saying AR does not apply, or that strike penalties do not apply. It is talking about being unable to do active responses like parries/dodges/entangles where you try and tie or surpass the strike roll.

eliakon wrote:
The reason is that we skipped part of the phase
In Step two of combat you roll to strike. Then after the roll you add any bonuses or penalties then you check to see if you hit or not.
However a n20 stops things at the roll stage and instantly moves to the you hit move on.

HU2p63 is where step 2: attacker rolls strike is located.

You are presenting rolling and applying bonuses as sequential steps. They are not. The ONLY place "bonus" appears in this section:
    If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses)

This clearly shows that bonuses are incorporated into the rolling process. There is no mention of "skipping" the addition of bonuses on a natural 20.

This is simply a common practice and house rule because the inability to miss (and AR and penalties being occasional situations) means the modified result wouldn't usually matter.

For that reason, if you are in a situation where a defense cannot be mounted (like a surprise attack from behind) if you rolled a 5+ and are suffering no penalties, there would be no reason to apply bonuses then either, because you know it's a hit and there will not be a defense against it. Calculating the total is something skippable unless you know there is an AR or a defense roll or similar to compare it to, otherwise you just need to know it's 5+ (or 8+ ranged in some games/situations)

eliakon wrote:
The next stage is "defender can attempt to roll a parry or dodge" under the special rules for the n20 strike only a n20 on the defence roll will stop it unless there is a special rule in play that explicitly says that it overrides the regular rule for AR.

The phrasing on the right column of page 63 is "STEP 3: Defender may Parry, Dodge or Entangle". The phrase "can attempt" you have in quotes doesn't actually appear until page 65 under "STEP 5: Defender May Attempt to Roll with Impact/Punch".

Natural 20s are not mentioned under step 3 (for HU2 at least) at all.

eliakon wrote:
This means that when you get to "check if strike penetrates the armor" you skipped the bonus and penalty stage so you come into this stage with a 20 showing.

You have not pointed out anywhere in HU2 where it mentions ignoring the process of applying modifiers. Nor have you supported your ideas on which numerical "step" checking AR is. AR is not mentioned under the basic combat rules, so it has no numbered step.

Page 66 mentions "Any roll above four but below the A.R. hits and damages the armor only." then "Any rolls to strike below the creature's Natural A.R. may hit and even sting (like a slap), but inflicts no damage!"

Note the word "any" repeated. "ANY" includes 20.

eliakon wrote:
Unless the person has some how acquired a nAR20+ somehow then it will be penetrated
Then you roll damage. You always get to roll the damage,

No, natural 20s to strike do not always get to roll damage. There is no point in doing that when it will both not inflict damage (a non-death-blow which fails to tie or exceed NAR, or a natural 20 defense it) or when it cannot possibly inflict knockdown (if using page 73's OPTIONAL "Humanoid Knock-Down Impact" table (requires a minimum of 16 damage, so with a natural 20's doubling, you'd still need a minimum of 8 damage, something a 1D4 punch could not accomplish)

This is something interesting to keep in mind for parries: if using this optional rule, damage should be rolled if it can possibly meet the minimum amount, even if you parry attacks, because they can still knock you down. This also makes dodging attacks from strong opponents possibly worth spending the attack on.

eliakon wrote:
in the case of multiple doubling effects (a jump kick with a n20 you determine base damage then multiply by X3 etc)

Ah, you DID catch this :) Yet this comes to us from where we're told natural 20s are critical hits, so I'm unsure how you still miss it.

I actually just noticed an inconsistency here for HU2. The part we're looking at which talks about x3 instead of x2 for crit jump attacks is from 65, but if we look at the glossary on 69 it's confusing:
    The advantage of a jump kick is that it works as a critical strike and doubles the normal damage inflicted
    (the listed damages double the number of dice instead of multiplying damage).

The parenthesis is a problem because the 4D6/6D6 listings apply the damage bonus AFTER, despite 65 explicitly saying you apply the bonus BEFORE doubling.

Also what is strange:
    The disadvantage of a jump kick is that no other attack may be pertormed in that melee round
    (all attacks for that melee are used up in the kick).
    The jump kick must be the character's first attack of that melee round. For the rest of the melee round, the character can only parry, dodge or move into position.
but if we read FLYING jump kick under this section:
    counts as two melee attacks

This made me wonder if FJK was better than JK (2 attacks instead of all) or if it instead means you must spend your first 2 attacks in the round instead of first 1. Why would spending the first 2 instead of first 1 matter if all are spent regardless? Would that then prevent someone with only 1 APM (perhaps due to penalties since HU has 2 for living) from doing FJK? Or would it be possible to spend the LAST attack of 1 round plus the FIRST attack of the next round?

At the end it says "For the rest of the melee round, the character can only parry, dodge or move into position." so assuming it isn't referring just to auto-dodges (or spending actions from the next round, which I think only RUE/Shadow Chronicles mentions, not HU) it probably means you lose "attacks" but they instead become "actions" which you can still spend on dodges. Or maybe spending actions on movement, however that might work. Entangles and disarms are not mentioned, which I don't think have "auto" versions, but automatic body flips are not mentioned either.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:15 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nat 20s don't bypass (Body Armor) AR ""for free"". They beats the (Body Armor) AR because the nat 20 beats the (body armor) AR under the normal AR rules....

That is true if it is higher than the AR.

It is possible to have ARs higher than 20 or have a natural 20 modified to be less by penalties though, which could result in it being less than or tying armor rating, and not bypassing it.

The highest (body armor) AR that I know of off hand is 18. Which Nat 20's beat w/o any specialness.

If you have found in the HU 2nd ed books (or elsewhere), Body Armor with an AR greater then 20, then you need to site the location of it. Otherwise your statements about (BA)AR being able to be more then 18 is just blowing smoke to make you argument with smoke and mirrors.
Axel has already given an example of a power combination giving a natural AR above 20. There are actual armors with AR above 18 as well in Nightbane, at least.
Moloch makes armor for himself when he is in the Nightlands with AR 20 and 800 sdc (Nightbane WB 2, page 26). So AR 20 is a real thing in Palladium. (The greater artifact armor from the same book has a variant with AR 19 as well, for anyone curious about armor with AR above 18).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:27 am
  

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As far as HU2 goes, metal manipulation in the powers unlimited books can juice up AR to 19 after a few levels, so there's that.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:56 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The highest (body armor) AR that I know of off hand is 18. Which Nat 20's beat w/o any specialness.

If you have found in the HU 2nd ed books (or elsewhere), Body Armor with an AR greater then 20, then you need to site the location of it.

20 to strike doesn't beat AR 20 so I wouldn't need greater than 20, just greater than 19.

One example of this is from Powers Unlimited. Page 30, Hardened Skin has a base NAR of 11 and gains +6 to AR by 12th level.

Page 28 Giant gives a base NAR of 8 and +6 to NAR by 13th level.

While bases do not stack, all bonuses DO stack unless otherwise indicated, so that is +12 to NAR by 13th level, and using the greater of the 2 bases of 11, that gives you a total NAR of 23.

gee wow I didn't know that...*sarcasm*
*wonders when we stopped talking about (body-armor) AR and moved to talking about Nat AR.....*
Yep you did bring up some apparent inconsistencies at the extremes that normally are dealt with by GMs by knowing how rules fit together.

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the h2h/MAF has a crit strike option, then if the nat die roll is high enough the strike does double damage, no matter what any other modifier may say.

In cases where we are told it has to be natural, there are some cases (like One Shot in N&S) where a modified total determines crit.

Or cases where it's an auto-crit due to being a jump kick, a strike from behind, a power hit, etc.

*wonders why he is just reiterating what I said with different words*

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the move of a h2h or MAF says that it automatically has a crit strike if it connects, then if it connects it does double damage.

If the modified total is still below AR, it will damage armor SDC in normal cases or do nothing at all in most NAR cases.

Death blow being the exception since it explicitly bypasses NAR at the cost of doing SDC instead of HP.

*wonders why he is reiterating the canon rules as if they were countering what I said.*
------
I hate it when people nit-pick a generalized statements about how it does not totally cover extreme situations, even thou the rules being talked about do cover the extreme situations if the reader of the canon text can can put more then one rule together to get an answer.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:29 pm
  

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I am kinda curious if anyone's ever played the giant hardened skin character in an actual game... Guess it wouldnt be much different from playing a character with the invulnerability mutation.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:46 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The highest (body armor) AR that I know of off hand is 18. Which Nat 20's beat w/o any specialness.

If you have found in the HU 2nd ed books (or elsewhere), Body Armor with an AR greater then 20, then you need to site the location of it.

20 to strike doesn't beat AR 20 so I wouldn't need greater than 20, just greater than 19.

One example of this is from Powers Unlimited. Page 30, Hardened Skin has a base NAR of 11 and gains +6 to AR by 12th level.

Page 28 Giant gives a base NAR of 8 and +6 to NAR by 13th level.

While bases do not stack, all bonuses DO stack unless otherwise indicated, so that is +12 to NAR by 13th level, and using the greater of the 2 bases of 11, that gives you a total NAR of 23.

gee wow I didn't know that...*sarcasm*
*wonders when we stopped talking about (body-armor) AR and moved to talking about Nat AR.....*
Yep you did bring up some apparent inconsistencies at the extremes that normally are dealt with by GMs by knowing how rules fit together.

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the h2h/MAF has a crit strike option, then if the nat die roll is high enough the strike does double damage, no matter what any other modifier may say.

In cases where we are told it has to be natural, there are some cases (like One Shot in N&S) where a modified total determines crit.

Or cases where it's an auto-crit due to being a jump kick, a strike from behind, a power hit, etc.

*wonders why he is just reiterating what I said with different words*

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the move of a h2h or MAF says that it automatically has a crit strike if it connects, then if it connects it does double damage.

If the modified total is still below AR, it will damage armor SDC in normal cases or do nothing at all in most NAR cases.

Death blow being the exception since it explicitly bypasses NAR at the cost of doing SDC instead of HP.

*wonders why he is reiterating the canon rules as if they were countering what I said.*
------
I hate it when people nit-pick a generalized statements about how it does not totally cover extreme situations, even thou the rules being talked about do cover the extreme situations if the reader of the canon text can can put more then one rule together to get an answer.

So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:06 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
dreicunan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The highest (body armor) AR that I know of off hand is 18. Which Nat 20's beat w/o any specialness.

If you have found in the HU 2nd ed books (or elsewhere), Body Armor with an AR greater then 20, then you need to site the location of it.

20 to strike doesn't beat AR 20 so I wouldn't need greater than 20, just greater than 19.

One example of this is from Powers Unlimited. Page 30, Hardened Skin has a base NAR of 11 and gains +6 to AR by 12th level.

Page 28 Giant gives a base NAR of 8 and +6 to NAR by 13th level.

While bases do not stack, all bonuses DO stack unless otherwise indicated, so that is +12 to NAR by 13th level, and using the greater of the 2 bases of 11, that gives you a total NAR of 23.

gee wow I didn't know that...*sarcasm*
*wonders when we stopped talking about (body-armor) AR and moved to talking about Nat AR.....*
Yep you did bring up some apparent inconsistencies at the extremes that normally are dealt with by GMs by knowing how rules fit together.

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the h2h/MAF has a crit strike option, then if the nat die roll is high enough the strike does double damage, no matter what any other modifier may say.

In cases where we are told it has to be natural, there are some cases (like One Shot in N&S) where a modified total determines crit.

Or cases where it's an auto-crit due to being a jump kick, a strike from behind, a power hit, etc.

*wonders why he is just reiterating what I said with different words*

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
✶If the move of a h2h or MAF says that it automatically has a crit strike if it connects, then if it connects it does double damage.

If the modified total is still below AR, it will damage armor SDC in normal cases or do nothing at all in most NAR cases.

Death blow being the exception since it explicitly bypasses NAR at the cost of doing SDC instead of HP.

*wonders why he is reiterating the canon rules as if they were countering what I said.*
------
I hate it when people nit-pick a generalized statements about how it does not totally cover extreme situations, even thou the rules being talked about do cover the extreme situations if the reader of the canon text can can put more then one rule together to get an answer.

So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

Well since I am not aware of anyway to legally GET such an AR the question is sort of moot.
BUT in the case of a GM allowing such a thing in their game the GM will have to decide on how they want to handle that unique exception themselves.
Personally? I would simply state that a n20 will always penetrate AR regardless so that the 'lucky shot can get through'. I.e. if it is possible for a roll to strike in any way... a n20 will do so.
But that is just my interpretation based on years of munckin players pulling shenanigans to try and make invincible characters that were immune to being harmed.

And to be clear, I am not convinced that "All bonuses stack" means that you add nAR bonuses from different powers.
I.e. if you have two powers that offer nAR then those two powers are calculated separately and you use the better of the two.
I am highly skeptical that it is possible to become immune to any and all attacks what so ever at fourth level by picking the right power combination. That might just be me... but I don't run games for the Lollipop Guild.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:29 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

Well since I am not aware of anyway to legally GET such an AR the question is sort of moot.
BUT in the case of a GM allowing such a thing in their game the GM will have to decide on how they want to handle that unique exception themselves.
Personally? I would simply state that a n20 will always penetrate AR regardless so that the 'lucky shot can get through'. I.e. if it is possible for a roll to strike in any way... a n20 will do so.
But that is just my interpretation based on years of munckin players pulling shenanigans to try and make invincible characters that were immune to being harmed.

And to be clear, I am not convinced that "All bonuses stack" means that you add nAR bonuses from different powers.
I.e. if you have two powers that offer nAR then those two powers are calculated separately and you use the better of the two.
I am highly skeptical that it is possible to become immune to any and all attacks what so ever at fourth level by picking the right power combination. That might just be me... but I don't run games for the Lollipop Guild.

Legally, Moloch in Nightbane creates armor for himself with AR 20, so it isn't a purely hypothetical question.

I'm now curious about what has made you change your previously stated position. The relevant line from that post being "We come into this step with a20 showing. Thus any AR of 19 or less is penetrated and any AR or 20 or greater is not penetrated."


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:43 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

So no more and no less then applying all the applicable canon rules to the situation.

You have the same access to the AR/Nat AR rules as I do. It is simple to figure it out for your self if you follow the rules.

Hint: you would be applying Three sub-sets of rules in a score 20 AR/NAR situation.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:15 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

So no more and no less then applying all the applicable canon rules to the situation.

You have the same access to the AR/Nat AR rules as I do. It is simple to figure it out for your self if you follow the rules.

Hint: you would be applying Three sub-sets of rules in a score 20 AR/NAR situation.
What a delightfully passive-aggressive response. Given that your claims of what is "canon" have in the past been in conflict with the actual canon, I'd prefer that you actually answered the question and state what it is that you claim would occur.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:33 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
*wonders when we stopped talking about (body-armor) AR and moved to talking about Nat AR.....*

Since the thread title?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Yep you did bring up some apparent inconsistencies at the extremes that normally are dealt with by GMs by knowing how rules fit together.

How they fit together is what we are discussing.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
*wonders why he is just reiterating what I said with different words*
*wonders why he is reiterating the canon rules as if they were countering what I said.*

You appear to be ignoring my rebuttals regarding why natural 20s do double damage. It is because natural 20s are critical hits. This is the only reason damage is doubled.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
the rules being talked about do cover the extreme situations if the reader of the canon text can can put more then one rule together to get an answer.

Your descent into unexact generalities seems to be avoidance.

eliakon wrote:
I am not aware of anyway to legally GET such an AR the question is sort of moot.

I finally remembered where I saw a candidate!

Page 44 of Powers Unlimited has the "Super Hibernation and Stasis Field" minor ability which has an A.R. of 8 + 1 per level of experience.

This would give it an A.R. of 23 at 15th level.

This would mean a natural 20 would need a +4 to strike to become a modified 24 to exceed the AR.

I'm not totally clear on whether this operates like normal AR (exceeding AR hits the people protected by the field, less/equal means you damage the field SDC) or natural AR (exceeding the AR means you damage the field SDC, less/equal means it bounces off and does nothing). Given it is a minor power and how crazy good the latter would be, I would guess the former was the intent.

Page 52's major power "Absorb Bio Mass" would be another way:
    the super being also gains their S,D.C and A.R. plus two melee attacks per round. All are added to his own

You can absorb up to 3 creatures, and you can use this on Physical Training category (HU2p188, Aggressive gets AR 14 at 15th level) or on Mutant Animals (max AR 16, HU2p269) for half duration. This means you could get a maximum AR of 42 or 48 respectively.

Page 66's "Control Density" can also also increase AR of objects by up to 8 points, so this could bring a LOT of things into the fold.

Also in Powers Unlimited 3, the "Absorb Matter" power on page 26:
    Once an object(s) is absorbed, the super being gets the object's weight/bulk, S.D.C, and A.R. temporarily added to
    his own

Someone using that to absorb diamonds (AR 18) could easily get above 20 if they had preexisting AR.

With so many possible routes to this, it is not a fringe question.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:11 pm
  

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then why didn't you keep talking about NAR?*rhetorical*

How they fit together is simple. There are only three sub-sets in the rules that need referencing.
Why didn't you ask that with your very first line in the OP if that is what you wanted to talk about? Instead of burying it somewhere where it could not be found by people scanning the post to know what the :crane: is being asked.


No I was not ""ignoring"" your responses. I was wondering why 1) You reiterated what I had just said in a paraphrase, and 2) you stated canon rules about something else in response to a statement. I though I was very clear in my communications about those two items.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:55 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

How they fit together is simple. There are only three sub-sets in the rules that need referencing.
So simple that you have yet to enlighten us with your view on what would occur. Will you be doing so?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:15 pm
  

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I would not be giving my view on what would occur. Just stating what the canon text says. Most of the rules needed to be referenced have been discussed here.
Besides, since you seam to have a thing about needing to disagree with me you state yours 1st and I will see if you get it right.

Besides the challenge was given to you. And me spoon feeding it out would be me taking the challenge away.

I will give you the rules sub-sets areas.
The basic combat rules
the nat 20 rules
the AR rules (well this might could as two subsets if you count the BA AR and the Nat AR as two subsets.)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:04 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I would not be giving my view on what would occur. Just stating what the canon text says. Most of the rules needed to be referenced have been discussed here.
Besides, since you seam to have a thing about needing to disagree with me you state yours 1st and I will see if you get it right.

Besides the challenge was given to you. And me spoon feeding it out would be me taking the challenge away.

I will give you the rules sub-sets areas.
The basic combat rules
the nat 20 rules
the AR rules (well this might could as two subsets if you count the BA AR and the Nat AR as two subsets.)

Well, if you are going to play the "I challenged you first" game, then I must point out that I asked you first. :D I certainly don't have a need to disagree with you; I merely disagree with you when you are wrong about something.

I previously would have said that a natural 20 would surpass it. However, due to Axel having posted about this, I've been re-examining all the text. Rules as written, I've yet to find a statement in the canon text that actually says that you don't apply bonuses or penalties to a natural 20 (it merely makes it clear that by natural 20 it means a 20 is showing on the die). Thus, against an AR of 20 or higher I'd apply all bonuses and penalties as usual. If it beats AR, it does. If it doesn't, apply damage as is normal to the armor.

That doesn't feel right to me based on how I'd done things in the past, but rules as written does appear to be how to run things. Thus, for natural AR, rules as written, if your modified result of a natural 20 ends up below the Natural AR, you would roll and double your damage, and then the damage would be stopped by natural AR.

Now, I don't think that is what was intended, but it sure appears to be what has been written.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:42 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
dreicunan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I would not be giving my view on what would occur. Just stating what the canon text says. Most of the rules needed to be referenced have been discussed here.
Besides, since you seam to have a thing about needing to disagree with me you state yours 1st and I will see if you get it right.

Besides the challenge was given to you. And me spoon feeding it out would be me taking the challenge away.

I will give you the rules sub-sets areas.
The basic combat rules
the nat 20 rules
the AR rules (well this might could as two subsets if you count the BA AR and the Nat AR as two subsets.)

Well, if you are going to play the "I challenged you first" game, then I must point out that I asked you first. :D I certainly don't have a need to disagree with you; I merely disagree with you when you are wrong about something.

I previously would have said that a natural 20 would surpass it. However, due to Axel having posted about this, I've been re-examining all the text. Rules as written, I've yet to find a statement in the canon text that actually says that you don't apply bonuses or penalties to a natural 20 (it merely makes it clear that by natural 20 it means a 20 is showing on the die). Thus, against an AR of 20 or higher I'd apply all bonuses and penalties as usual. If it beats AR, it does. If it doesn't, apply damage as is normal to the armor.

That doesn't feel right to me based on how I'd done things in the past, but rules as written does appear to be how to run things. Thus, for natural AR, rules as written, if your modified result of a natural 20 ends up below the Natural AR, you would roll and double your damage, and then the damage would be stopped by natural AR.

Now, I don't think that is what was intended, but it sure appears to be what has been written.

If I was a rules lawyer I would argue that the text says if the roll with all bonuses beats the roll... and that it doesn't say to apply penalties when calculating the penetration.
That could be read to mean that penalties apply to determine if something hits but not if it penetrates.
That is, of course the narrow technical RAW interpretation.
But as written applying any penalties at all whatsoever to the roll, either to strike or after words to penetrate is a house rule and not canon.
And yes I am quite aware that this is a shenanigan in and of itself.
But it does bring up the fact that the RAW of the combat system is broken already and that thus trying to rules lawyer the system like Axel seems to be doing is inherently not going to work because the combat system in HU doesn't actually have penalties under RAW.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:51 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
dreicunan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

Well since I am not aware of anyway to legally GET such an AR the question is sort of moot.
BUT in the case of a GM allowing such a thing in their game the GM will have to decide on how they want to handle that unique exception themselves.
Personally? I would simply state that a n20 will always penetrate AR regardless so that the 'lucky shot can get through'. I.e. if it is possible for a roll to strike in any way... a n20 will do so.
But that is just my interpretation based on years of munckin players pulling shenanigans to try and make invincible characters that were immune to being harmed.

And to be clear, I am not convinced that "All bonuses stack" means that you add nAR bonuses from different powers.
I.e. if you have two powers that offer nAR then those two powers are calculated separately and you use the better of the two.
I am highly skeptical that it is possible to become immune to any and all attacks what so ever at fourth level by picking the right power combination. That might just be me... but I don't run games for the Lollipop Guild.

Legally, Moloch in Nightbane creates armor for himself with AR 20, so it isn't a purely hypothetical question.

I'm now curious about what has made you change your previously stated position. The relevant line from that post being "We come into this step with a20 showing. Thus any AR of 19 or less is penetrated and any AR or 20 or greater is not penetrated."

In my game I would simply have it hit and penetrate since I understand that the entire combat system is unplayable as written and thus in the process of fixing it to the point where it CAN be actually played I simply changed how AR worked to make it actually a viable defense for people, and in the process of that I made the explicit note that a n20 in my games always hits La La La, and that if the attack is capable of inflicting damage to that target in any way, then it will do so La La La. So far I have yet to have a player complain about it since it works both ways and frankly... it is usually NPCs that have the better defenses where that lucky shot comes into play.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:25 pm
  

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Monk

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

So no more and no less then applying all the applicable canon rules to the situation.

You have the same access to the AR/Nat AR rules as I do. It is simple to figure it out for your self if you follow the rules.

Hint: you would be applying Three sub-sets of rules in a score 20 AR/NAR situation.

Already answered that question.

Did you want more then just an "integration of what canon says" answer ? :angel:


So If the target is wearing an AR20 armor then the strike connects and does damage.
Because the strike roll was not clearly over the AR by just considering the nat die roll, to see if the damage is does to the wearer or to the armor then the modifiers are added to the die roll and then assessed again. The damage is assessed to see if the target suffers a knock back or knock down situation due to the damage ascribed to the strike did of done.

If it is a NAR 20 (which is only arguably attainable via super ability bonus stacking.)...basically the same as above. Because the strike roll was not clearly over the NAR by just considering the nat die roll, to see if the target suffers damage the modifiers are added to the die roll and then assessed again. The damage is assessed to see if the target suffers a knock back or knock down situation due to the damage ascribed to the strike did/would of done.
-------------

If the GM is using that the nat die roll in his/her game for assessments for AR/NAR, then that GM has to limit the AR/NAR to a maximum of a AR/NAR score of 19. Otherwise the armor/nat AR score of 20 makes the target functionally invulnerable.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:59 pm
  

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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 693
eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

Well since I am not aware of anyway to legally GET such an AR the question is sort of moot.
BUT in the case of a GM allowing such a thing in their game the GM will have to decide on how they want to handle that unique exception themselves.
Personally? I would simply state that a n20 will always penetrate AR regardless so that the 'lucky shot can get through'. I.e. if it is possible for a roll to strike in any way... a n20 will do so.
But that is just my interpretation based on years of munckin players pulling shenanigans to try and make invincible characters that were immune to being harmed.

And to be clear, I am not convinced that "All bonuses stack" means that you add nAR bonuses from different powers.
I.e. if you have two powers that offer nAR then those two powers are calculated separately and you use the better of the two.
I am highly skeptical that it is possible to become immune to any and all attacks what so ever at fourth level by picking the right power combination. That might just be me... but I don't run games for the Lollipop Guild.

Legally, Moloch in Nightbane creates armor for himself with AR 20, so it isn't a purely hypothetical question.

I'm now curious about what has made you change your previously stated position. The relevant line from that post being "We come into this step with a20 showing. Thus any AR of 19 or less is penetrated and any AR or 20 or greater is not penetrated."

In my game I would simply have it hit and penetrate since I understand that the entire combat system is unplayable as written and thus in the process of fixing it to the point where it CAN be actually played I simply changed how AR worked to make it actually a viable defense for people, and in the process of that I made the explicit note that a n20 in my games always hits La La La, and that if the attack is capable of inflicting damage to that target in any way, then it will do so La La La. So far I have yet to have a player complain about it since it works both ways and frankly... it is usually NPCs that have the better defenses where that lucky shot comes into play.

A good explanation. :ok: Personally I'm actually not a big fan of critical strikes when they are done on a purely random roll chance and not based on degree of success (i.e. involving skill), since they tend to favor the mooks over the players (so over the course of even semi-regular combat in campaigns, the players are subject to way more opportunities for crits than the opposition), though I've seen systems where mobs can't actually land them, only significant villains, and that mitigates the problem.

I'm also not a big fan of Palladium's AR system; that was mitigated when I was playing regularly because our main campaign ended up taking place in Rifts most of the time after starting out in Fantasy, so we didn't really deal with it.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:00 pm
  

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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 693
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So, when facing either an Natural AR or a normal AR of 20 or higher, what do you claim happens when a natural 20 is rolled?

So no more and no less then applying all the applicable canon rules to the situation.

You have the same access to the AR/Nat AR rules as I do. It is simple to figure it out for your self if you follow the rules.

Hint: you would be applying Three sub-sets of rules in a score 20 AR/NAR situation.

Already answered that question.

Did you want more then just an "integration of what canon says" answer ? :angel:


So If the target is wearing an AR20 armor then the strike connects and does damage.
Because the strike roll was not clearly over the AR by just considering the nat die roll, to see if the damage is does to the wearer or to the armor then the modifiers are added to the die roll and then assessed again. The damage is assessed to see if the target suffers a knock back or knock down situation due to the damage ascribed to the strike did of done.

If it is a NAR 20 (which is only arguably attainable via super ability bonus stacking.)...basically the same as above. Because the strike roll was not clearly over the NAR by just considering the nat die roll, to see if the target suffers damage the modifiers are added to the die roll and then assessed again. The damage is assessed to see if the target suffers a knock back or knock down situation due to the damage ascribed to the strike did/would of done.
-------------

If the GM is using that the nat die roll in his/her game for assessments for AR/NAR, then that GM has to limit the AR/NAR to a maximum of a AR/NAR score of 19. Otherwise the armor/nat AR score of 20 makes the target functionally invulnerable.

Well what do you know? We agree! :ok:


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:27 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3411
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
then why didn't you keep talking about NAR?*rhetorical*

Really it doesn't matter, the question is equally valid for normal and natural ARs.

dreicunan wrote:
rules as written, if your modified result of a natural 20 ends up below the Natural AR, you would roll and double your damage, and then the damage would be stopped by natural AR.

Now, I don't think that is what was intended, but it sure appears to be what has been written.

Keep in mind, of course, that natural AR doesn't always mean that absolutely no damage happens if you roll equal/below instead of above it.

It's been a while since I took a close look at APS Metal, and I noticed actually that if you roll under the NAR with Supernatural PS, it just means you do HALF damage, instead of full damage.

In the case of APS Stone it is the same, except that even Extraordinary/Superhuman PS does 1/4 damage instead of full damage.

What SNPS really needs to watch our for are possibly lower ARs which don't have such notes. Bio-Armor or Force Aura for example, completely negate SNPS damage which rolls under their NARs, so they are potentially better defense against SNPS punches than APS Metal despite having lower NAR than it.

eliakon wrote:
as written applying any penalties at all whatsoever to the roll, either to strike or after words to penetrate is a house rule and not canon.

Where is that written?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
If the GM is using that the nat die roll in his/her game for assessments for AR/NAR, then that GM has to limit the AR/NAR to a maximum of a AR/NAR score of 19. Otherwise the armor/nat AR score of 20 makes the target functionally invulnerable.

No, it doesn't, because some abilities explicitly ignore AR, which would trump ANY amount of AR. Even my plans of stacking three AR 18 giant insects to get +54 to AR.

That or someone could Negate Super Abilities to make me lose my AR :)


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