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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:21 am
  

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Knight

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What is everyone's opinion on combining classes in place of making a traditional Mega Heroes? For example, an Experiment who is a Genius class, or Mutant Super Sleuth. The idea behind the above is not to stack as many powers as you can, but to make a complete character that can hold up in a game with flying bricks and such. There are many comic characters as well as several book characters that combine classes already, so I don't take it as too far of a stretch.

Awhile back I put down a handful of potential options for the Mega Hero, outside of the normal Tremendous SDC and such.

Here is the link to my earlier thread.
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=150579&hilit=alternate+mega These were meant to be add ons if you will to a normal character instead of bumping them up to a real Mega. There are times you want a Mystic Study with an edge versus a Mystic Study who has SNPS and immortality.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:15 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
RockJock wrote:
What is everyone's opinion on combining classes in place of making a traditional Mega Heroes? For example, an Experiment who is a Genius class, or Mutant Super Sleuth. The idea behind the above is not to stack as many powers as you can, but to make a complete character that can hold up in a game with flying bricks and such. There are many comic characters as well as several book characters that combine classes already, so I don't take it as too far of a stretch.

Awhile back I put down a handful of potential options for the Mega Hero, outside of the normal Tremendous SDC and such.

Here is the link to my earlier thread.
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=150579&hilit=alternate+mega These were meant to be add ons if you will to a normal character instead of bumping them up to a real Mega. There are times you want a Mystic Study with an edge versus a Mystic Study who has SNPS and immortality.

Rifter 37 takes a crack at this concept.
In general the version it suggests seems to work pretty well. As long as the GM and Player work together instead of trying to 'beat' the other one you can get some very well designed characters this way.
And of course like most stuff it is easy to abuse and cheese out... that doesn't make it good or bad, just that like Megaheroes themselves it is a very powerful addition that can attract those seeking power for its own sake, not for the sake of the character.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 am
  

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Knight

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The possible difference in power levels has always been a good and bad point of HU.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:16 am
  

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Monk

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1st there are no classes in HU.
2nd combining two classes makes one new class.
---
link comments
Spoiler:
Your ideas are all have one theme...making HU more like rifts. This is something I don't like because it cheapens the HU setting to be just a "Little Brother" of rifts. Where, of the two, Rifts is the little brother of HU.

My suggestion would be to embrace the HU setting. For it's character templates are more ready to be modified then the straitjacket CCs of most of the other settings.
So the best way to bring things into HU is to change them into power cats. The PCC/RCC/OCC skills (after taking out the h2h and WPs) would take the place of one of the char's skill programs. The Related skills would be ditched, all of them. And taking the HU secondary skill.

There are no rules in HU that allow a char to change their power cat.

---
w/o getting any books out I will presume that Eli is pointing to the rifter article that says that a char can have two power cats...but they become a mega hero, in name & exp table only, doing so. Would I allow a two power cat char in a normal game, no. It would have to be a high or uber power level game. About the same types of games I'd let MH's into.

As for Psi and Magic Megas....I would not allow the standing book legal stats for those two power cats. The MH mods in the HU2 MB are not written for them.

In lue of the MB MH powers (all of them except the increased healing) I would have them pick two of the Psi/Magic MH powers detailed in a rifter. (thinking R37 but might be incorrect.)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:12 pm
  

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Knight

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I'll take a look at the Rifter article. Thanks for bringing it up.

Thanks for the discussion Drew. And you are correct about class vs categories.

These were meant to be in place of a main book Mega Hero, or Immortal in a game. I guess I did not make that clear enough from the start.


The options in my link were meant to bring a more Megaversal mix into HU games, but I can see your point.

This all came out of wanting to add more options based on different game power levels. It is easy enough to say no to Megas and similar in a game, or even limit a game to minor heroes, and unpowered classes, but in my experience it is not as easy to play a higher level game with all the classes available. A Stage Magician or Super Sleuth tends to get overlooked in a higher powered game against Megas and demigods, but also say when compared to Super Weapon run by the inventor/genius.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:42 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
RockJock wrote:
I'll take a look at the Rifter article. Thanks for bringing it up.

Thanks for the discussion Drew. And you are correct about class vs categories.

These were meant to be in place of a main book Mega Hero, or Immortal in a game. I guess I did not make that clear enough from the start.


The options in my link were meant to bring a more Megaversal mix into HU games, but I can see your point.

This all came out of wanting to add more options based on different game power levels. It is easy enough to say no to Megas and similar in a game, or even limit a game to minor heroes, and unpowered classes, but in my experience it is not as easy to play a higher level game with all the classes available. A Stage Magician or Super Sleuth tends to get overlooked in a higher powered game against Megas and demigods, but also say when compared to Super Weapon run by the inventor/genius.

I agree I have found that in general, once you decide on a 'high power' game it usually means that no one will want to play the lower power classes with out some sort of enhancement. Dual category Mega can do that nicely. Even ignoring the suggested rule in the Rifter can work in certain cases. For example a Super Spy/Stage Magician is viable in my opinion. Sure its two 'skill' classes, but they are both on the lower end of the spectrum and when combined you get the comic book 'Omni competent' hero who knows a little bit of everything.
In the same vein I have been known to grant 'perks' to lower power characters to bring them 'up to par'. So for example the Stage Magician might have some extra skills (guess they did some more collage study). Or be rich (wealth is a super power in and of itself). Or they might inherit the mansion that the team uses as a base...

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:27 pm
  

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That -would- fit with my Full Conversion Cyborg/Natural Genius character who's been a cyborg since birth(born with a severely malformed body, akin to Anne McCaffery's heroine-in-a-can Helva). She's a genius engineer, particularly in medicine and cybernetics, because she's watched herself be progressively modified, and learned how to improve herself, through an ongoing process of upgrade into an increasingly more human-looking full body prosthetic.

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And the Turning of a Page"

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:54 pm
  

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I run a version of heroes where nothing stacks, so I have no trouble with a character stackin other classes on one person... Generally speaking I prefer it if they create a character the traditional way and add in extra classes during the campaign itself, but that's by no means a 'rule I enforce'


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:25 am
  

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Monk

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Vincent Takeda wrote:
I run a version of heroes where nothing stacks, so I have no trouble with a character stackin other classes on one person... Generally speaking I prefer it if they create a character the traditional way and add in extra classes during the campaign itself, but that's by no means a 'rule I enforce'

What classes? There are none in HU.
As per Kevin S. the hu power cats are to be one per char and like the Dragon RCC...can't be changed. (the Q&A in R9.5) There is no ''''changing Power Cat rules'''' anywhere in canon.
Now Skills can be learned in HU. There is dedicated rules for that in the education section. but these are individual skills not skill programs.
-------------
Now having stated canon...moving onto opinion...

*shrugs* so long as it is a Job OCC, I see no problem with the char taking a year out to learn that CC's OCC skills (minus the h2h and WP skills) as a skill program. Note that liberal VP exclude the char gaining any "Class Powers". This is because they already have ""class powers"" from their power cat, and ""class powers"" are not in the OCC skills.

I am basing this opinion on the text in the AU:GG book where they have some space-ways related skill programs that the 'other setting notes' say can be taken by chars as their OCC skills in the other settings.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:53 am
  

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Vincent Takeda wrote:
I run a version of heroes where nothing stacks,

Kind of curious what you mean by this.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:34 am
  

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Slight001 wrote:
Vincent Takeda wrote:
I run a version of heroes where nothing stacks,

Kind of curious what you mean by this.


Lets see... on the easy end say you have a character takes running wrestling and gymnastics...
Normally thats 2rwpf, 2ps, 1pp, 2pe, 2d6sdc, 1 more pe, 4d4 spd, another d6 sdc, another rwpf, 2 more ps, 1 more pe, and 4d6 more sdc.

stacking? 3rwpf, 4ps, 1pp, 4pe, 7d6sdc, 4d4 speed.
without stacking? 2rwpf, 2ps, 1pp, 2pe, 4d6sdc, 4d4 spd

Meaning instead of adding any bonuses given from these skills, the highest value is taken. 2pe or 1pe or 1 pe? you get the 2 because a gymnast who also runs and wrestles isn't gonna get as much extra endurance out of the running and wrestling.. They're a gymast so their endurance is already 2 better than normal from the gymnastics alone.

Normal play a boxer who does weightlifting gets 2 strength from each... but a neither a boxer or a weightlifter is gonna increase his strength much by adding one to the other, and we just stick with the 2. Lets give him a supernatural strength mutation. He gets a base score of 30+2d6... but if he takes weightlifting... he wont gain any extra 2 points because a guy with that much strength is gonna see outright miniscule gains from doing weight training. (he'll get that extra 10sdc though since supernatural strength doesnt provide any sdc bonus...

Sonic speed character thinks taking boxing is gonna give him an extra attack? Really?

Keep the numbers out of the stratosphere and it doesnt matter how many classes or skills or modifiers you add together. All you're adding is variety instead of raw power. A character that played for a long time could start out a psychic alien, find a tech weapon that mimics energy expulsion powers, a tech or magic object (pair of sunglassses with sense death and destruction is a personal favorite), learn to cast spells, become a supersoldier, have his limbs blown off and replaced with cybernetics and without stacking none of that would get out of hand.

Only limit to how much combining you could do would be 'logical' or 'thematic'... can a golem get a cybernetic arm? Can he be 'genetically modified?' What would a supersoldier golem be like...?

Be warned it does change the game significantly and there are a lot of fringe cases to be explored but its workin out great for me on my end. And mercifully less stratospheric pp and attacks per round out of characters of both low and high levels, which makes the fights go faster and also provide a more dynamic exchange. Whole lot easier to track bonuses/modifiers too. Dont have to add up a metric ton of modifiers or wonder where they came from.

Extraordinary speed plus heightened hearing plus zanji? Normally an outrageous initiative bonus.

Without stackin? 6 baby. Done. Until your zanji alone gives you more than 6. Good stuff.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:35 am
  

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I lost my sheets that tallied up 'what if an immortal character mastered every martial art form' and 'what if a character takes all the physical skills', and by no means is this the only or most prominent houserule I use in my games, but I like to keep the topic focused.

Attacks per round is mercifully kept in the single digits.


Last edited by Vincent Takeda on Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:37 pm
  

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Palladin

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Vincent Takeda wrote:
I run a version of heroes where nothing stacks, so I have no trouble with a character stackin other classes on one person... Generally speaking I prefer it if they create a character the traditional way and add in extra classes during the campaign itself, but that's by no means a 'rule I enforce'

What classes? There are none in HU.
As per Kevin S. the hu power cats are to be one per char and like the Dragon RCC...can't be changed. (the Q&A in R9.5) There is no ''''changing Power Cat rules'''' anywhere in canon.

Cut it out
You know darn well what everyone is talking about when we use the word "Classes"
And before you try and claim that your just trying to make everyone be accurate your not.
YOU aren't even using the "correct" grammer so your attempts to make everyone else fall flat and hollow.
There are no "classes" in the entire GAME after all. There are O.C.C.s and R.C.C.s but they are not "classes" since that is a shorthand...
Every other person on the entire forums knows what the term is being used as here, so your repeated attempts to hijack the thread into a discussion of the imaginary differences between "classes" and "Categories" and "Races" what not is basically just that... hijacking.

Now. If you want to actually be helpful with the discussion and not try and insert your personal house rules and try and make everyone follow your personal versions of grammar and English please do. But you are neither the Editors of the game nor are you any sort of international regulatory body on the English Language (since there isn't one and thus the rules of the English Language are based on a consensus of experts in the field. If you have a Doctorate in Grammar and are published in the field though, by all means provide your references...)

As for what the ACTUALL comment was?
That's not to bad. If everyone understands that you can stack (or not stack) then its not really a problem.
The only issue is that it still doesn't address the core problem that the idea was meant to solve (in some ways it makes it worse)
Specifically if nothing stacks, then as I understand you, it is going to be even harder for something like a Stage Magician to 'catch up' to the 'higher end' characters since they wont be able to stack on more to them... so they will always be weaker... and thus the disincentive to playing them grows not lessens.
I may be misunderstanding though.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:56 pm
  

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drewkitty wrote:
There is no ''''changing Power Cat rules'''' anywhere in canon.
But there is a canon example of a Mega-hero becoming a Knight of the White Rose in Madhaven (WB 29). So one can apparently change out of a power category into an OCC. If you can do that, then it certainly isn't unreasonable to think that at least some power categories could combine.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:04 pm
  

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I'll admit my no stacking rule wasnt meant to address the poor stage magician problem other than the possibility that someone might finally be inclined to take it as an addition to other classes in order to give their character additional options without restricting them to the stage magician's repartée alone. Without it (and even with it) the stage magician has gone pretty much untouched in my nonstacking games as well.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:14 pm
  

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Yeah... a no stacking based setting wouldn't encourage me to pick weaker options... I'd only look at them after I've exhausted all possibilities for 'upgrades'... which is a dark path my mind starts to travel down.

When I'm creating a character I'm not trying to match or equal someone I'm just trying to be competitive with the group so that I don't feel left behind or as if I am some how overshadowing another.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:45 pm
  

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What Eliakon and Taal suggested is the sort of thing I was talking about. Other mega options I've used in the past is boosting budgets for things characters that need a budget(bionic/robot/eugenics/etc).

The book says not to make Megas from Bionic, Robot, Hardware, or Special Training characters, yet a good chunk of the Centurions break this guideline(Iron Lotus, Spartacus, and Whiz Kid).

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:30 pm
  

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RockJock wrote:
The book says not to make Megas from Bionic, Robot, Hardware, or Special Training characters, yet a good chunk of the Centurions break this guideline(Iron Lotus, Spartacus, and Whiz Kid).

You'll find that in a lot of the books produced by Palladium. As many have pointed out there are no hard set rules for multi-classing and yet multiple NPC's have multiple classes. There are also a number of NPC's who have abilities that their class or race didn't grant them or have abilities that operate differently then those available to a player character.

Kevin S... iirc he's actually big on players and gm's having conversions and making changes to the powers/abilities of a PC to better fit both the setting/campaign and the pc concept.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:17 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
drewkitty wrote:
There is no ''''changing Power Cat rules'''' anywhere in canon.
But there is a canon example of a Mega-hero becoming a Knight of the White Rose in Madhaven (WB 29). So one can apparently change out of a power category into an OCC. If you can do that, then it certainly isn't unreasonable to think that at least some power categories could combine.

Looking at the NPC you mentioned it appears that the writer was loosely following the RCB1r rules about young D-Bee chars picking a class in their new world, instead of following their old life path. Also it is known that the writers ""Take Liberties"" :wink: :wink: when creating their NPCs.

And since that rule is a part of the Rifts setting's canon and it is specifically about a L1 changing from the char's old OCC to pick up a new OCC. My statement still stands correct.
-------------------
RockJock wrote:
The book says not to make Megas from Bionic, Robot, Hardware, or Special Training characters, yet a good chunk of the Centurions break this guideline(Iron Lotus, Spartacus, and Whiz Kid).

That is because the writers take creative license when making their NPCs. If you look carefully at the power cats you might notice that they are more "general outlines" that are ready for players with their GMs can modify to fit individual character concepts.
This is most evident in the Aliens and Immortals texts.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:15 pm
  

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Vincent Takeda wrote:
I lost my sheets that tallied up 'what if an immortal character mastered every martial art form' and 'what if a character takes all the physical skills', and by no means is this the only or most prominent houserule I use in my games, but I like to keep the topic focused.

Attacks per round is mercifully kept in the single digits.

In the "Go Mental" Rifter article (R19) there is text talking about the diminishing returns would taking stat bonuses from skills.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:42 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
drewkitty wrote:
There is no ''''changing Power Cat rules'''' anywhere in canon.
But there is a canon example of a Mega-hero becoming a Knight of the White Rose in Madhaven (WB 29). So one can apparently change out of a power category into an OCC. If you can do that, then it certainly isn't unreasonable to think that at least some power categories could combine.

Looking at the NPC you mentioned it appears that the writer was loosely following the RCB1 rules about young D-Bee chars picking a class in their new world, instead of following their old life path. Also it is known that the writers ""Take Liberties"" :wink: :wink: when creating their NPCs.

And since that rule is a part of the Rifts setting's canon and it is specifically about a L1 changing from the char's old OCC to pick up a new OCC. My statement still stands correct.
-------------------
RockJock wrote:
The book says not to make Megas from Bionic, Robot, Hardware, or Special Training characters, yet a good chunk of the Centurions break this guideline(Iron Lotus, Spartacus, and Whiz Kid).

That is because the writers take creative license when making their NPCs. If you look carefully at the power cats you might notice that they are more "general outlines" that are ready for players with their GMs can modify to fit individual character concepts.
This is most evident in the Aliens and Immortals texts.

Where is the specific page for this rule from RCB1 that you are referencing? From what I can find, RCB1 only mentions wizards and diabolists being able to become techno-wizards. Everyone else is listed as keeping their original OCC and just picking up some new skills.

I never said that your statement wasn't correct, but neither is mine. It is a canon example of a character changing from a power category to an OCC.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:08 pm
  

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RCB1r page 39

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:13 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
RCB1r page 39

Yes, in the heat of the writing I left out the r. :P

That would require that some how he have been a 'Young character who has not yet selected a profession/O.C.C.'1 even though he was already a costumed crime fighter who was a level 1 Mega-Hero. OR he could be using the rule that allows him as a 'First level character to opt to discard his native O.C.C. for a Rifts O.C.C.'2

Even so it still would require that he have "Classed out" of being a Mega-Hero Power-Category (mostly likely by treating it as being rules wise as being interchangeable with/identical to an O.C.C. and into his specialized version of the Mystic Knight O.C.C.

Which means that "Changing 'class' from a Power-Category to something else" is a thing, and that has been done.


1 I have changed the wording slightly to reflect the usage of this quote from the general/universal for all beings as a guide to GMs and PCs to the specific/individual for this particular person.
2 Ibid

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:26 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Looking at the NPC you mentioned it appears that the writer was loosely following the RCB1r rules about young D-Bee chars picking a class in their new world, instead of following their old life path. Also it is known that the writers ""Take Liberties"" :wink: :wink: when creating their NPCs.

Like I said "it is known that the writers ""Take Liberties"" when creating their NPCs."

Thus, I was not saying that the RCB1r rules cover PCs. Only that the writer seams to be using them to justify creating that NPC that way.

IF.... KS meant that that rule was meant to cover Power Cats (HU templates) and apprenticeships (ATB2 Templates) then he :twisted: well should of included them in the text. Instead only OCCs are mentioned. You know this as well as I do eliakon. Whether they meant something else when they wrote the text, they should of written what they meant instead of what they did write. So if you want to complain to the person responsible for this deficit, you know it is not me you should be complaining to.

Interpreting that the any of the changing OCCs rules cover Power cats or apprenticeships is a House Rule.
CC's =/= power cat =/= apprenticeships
Yes, they are all types of character templates that PB uses. That in itself does not make them the same. Especially when it is VERY :crane: PLANE TO SEE that they ARE NOT THE SAME.

Since the HU1 was written after the PF1, the PCs were Written To Be Different from the CCs in PF1. ATB2 was written decades after that, and the apprenticeships there were Written To Be Different from the CCs & power cats.

There. All the legs of your arguments are busted up and thrown in the fire.
If you want to continue arguing with someone do it via PMs and with someone else.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:25 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9713
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Looking at the NPC you mentioned it appears that the writer was loosely following the RCB1r rules about young D-Bee chars picking a class in their new world, instead of following their old life path. Also it is known that the writers ""Take Liberties"" :wink: :wink: when creating their NPCs.

Like I said "it is known that the writers ""Take Liberties"" when creating their NPCs."

Thus, I was not saying that the RCB1r rules cover PCs. Only that the writer seams to be using them to justify creating that char that way.

Incorrect.
You are claiming that.
The writer no where states that they are using those rules.
You are claiming that they are using the rule. The difference is of significant important because.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
IF.... KS meant that that rule was meant to cover Power Cats (HU templates) and apprenticeships (ATB2 Templates) then he :twisted: well should of included them in the text. Instead only OCCs are mentioned. You know this as well as I do eliakon. Whether they meant something else when they wrote the text, they should of written what they meant instead of what they did write. So if you want to complain to the person responsible for this deficit, you know it is not me you should be complaining to.

Again your problem here not ours.
We are stating that the HU character changed classes.
We can point to a character that did so and say it happened.
YOU are the one stating that it must have used a specific rule and then further stating that the rule used was broken.
That is your unsuported contention. It does not, however seem to be supported by the facts and as such neither makes the author wrong nor does it make the rule in RCBr be incorrectly applied. This is because as far as can be told the rule in RCBr1 was not the rule used to make Sir Gabriel.
Just because there is a rule in RCBr 1 does not mean that is the only way something can happen. And in the absence of any statement by the author that they used that rule as the justification for the creation of Sir Gabriel it is pure conjecture to conclude that they used that rule (incorrectly) to make him.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Interpreting that the any of the changing OCCs rules cover Power cats or apprenticeships is a House Rule.

Only half correct.
We know that it can be done.
We do not know the specifics of how it is done, just that it can be done...
...but the fact that it can be done is established canon and it would be a house rule to say that it can not be done.
We know that it is canon because it is a thing that has been done in canon.
Simply put we can point to a Canon example of a Mega-Hero (that is a Power Category) who stopped advancing as a Mega-Hero and instead started advancing as a Mystic Knight (that is an O.C.C.).
Like it or not (and frankly I'm not a fan of it myself to be honest, but done is done and its canon now) "So it was written, so it was done"

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
CC's =/= power cat =/= apprenticeships
Yes, they are all types of character templates that PB uses. That in itself does not make them the same. Especially when it is VERY :crane: PLANE TO SEE that they ARE NOT THE SAME.

Again you are the only one making the claim that the rules that were used to change out of the power category are the same ones that apply to OCCs. The rest of us are just saying that there are rules even though we might not know what they are.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Since the HU1 was written after the PF1, the PCs were Written To Be Different from the CCs in PF1. ATB2 was written decades after that, and the apprenticeships there were Written To Be Different from the CCs & power cats.

Again, your tilting at a windmill by making a claim that has quite literally no meaning.
Yes a Power Category is different than a OCC which is different than an RCC which is different than an Apprenticeship. So what?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
There. All the legs of your arguments are busted up and thrown in the fire.

Not in the slightest. You have quite literally done absolutely nothing here but state that a Power Category is not an O.C.C.
To which the rest of the universe says "so?"
Or to diagram it
(Power Category =/= O.C.C.) =/= Can not stop being a power category and learn an O.C.C.
On the contrary we know that this can be done because it has been done proving that it is indeed a thing that can be done.
And yes this does also btw does mean that since a Power Category =/= O.C.C. that the rules for changing into a new O.C.C. are not what would be used to gain a new power category either, assuming that such a thing is indeed possible, which is something that is that I don't know about and don't frankly care about at this point as its not all that germane right now.

<edit> According to Gramercy Island page 173 it is, as Hazmat was a 9th level Hazmat Specialist (an O.C.C. it seems) when he was exposed to Hypertane, mutated and is now a "level 1 monster/villain" with the Power Category of "Considered an accidental Mega-Experiment"
Of course this doesn't say that it is possible to move from one Power Category to another, and indeed Raptor Red would seem to imply you would just become even more Mega and get more powah if that happens.

Thus we have our two black swans
Sir Gabriel who is our black swan demonstrating that it is possible to stop being a power category and become an OCC
and Hazmat who is our black swan demonstrating that it is possible to stop being an OCC and become a power category.

_________________
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:07 am
  

Adventurer

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 693
RCB1, when talking about HU characters, refers to their skills as OCC skills on page 40. Did RCB1 revised eliminate that reference?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:04 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15234
Location: Eastvale, calif
It looks like the text of the HU sections were totally rewritten.
I didn't see any direct mention of skills in relation to converting HU chars to rifts.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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