Super Invention character question - Analytical Genius?

[Glistam]

In creating a Super Invention character from Powers Unlimited 2, the following option is presented in Step Four: Education & Skills:

If an Inventor Genius roll up as a Hardware Power Category: Electrical or Mechanical Genius, but without any of the usual gadgets, gimmicks, equipment or budget/resources because it has all gone into the creation of the super-invention.

What I wanted to propose to the think tank today is this: Would you allow the Inventor Genius to be a Hardware: Analytical Genius instead of the Mechanical or Electrical? Why or why not? Personally, as G.M. I'm inclined to allow it but I'd like to get some feedback on the idea before I give an official ruling on the matter.

[Nightmask]

Seems like the perfect category for a Super-Inventor.

[Sir_Spirit]

Yeah, I have been assuming any hardware/SI guy would be an AG anyway.....

[Razorwing]

I honestly see nothing wrong with this idea. The budget and such that the Analytical Genius receives is roughly between the Electrical and Mechanical versions of the Hardware category... so it does seem balanced. Personally, I think the Analytical Genius character is a better fit... especially skill-wise, for this option than the other two.

Hehe... to be honest, I could even see a Weapons Expert version where he invents a super invention that looks more like a mystic weapon... sort of a technological version of say... Thor's Hammer... or along the lines of Blue Devil's original Trident (before it was infused with mystic power); but that's just me.

[13eowulf]

I would add an additional restriction, and I would actually add this restriction to all the Hardware characters:
In each Hardware category there is a section where if you give up certain things you can pick a second Hardware category. I would not allow this AND a Super Invention. Either/or, but not both options.
Not unless it was a mega-hero game and they wanted that instead of being a mega.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would add an additional restriction, and I would actually add this restriction to all the Hardware characters:
In each Hardware category there is a section where if you give up certain things you can pick a second Hardware category. I would not allow this AND a Super Invention. Either/or, but not both options.

Agrees.

However, the reason I would rule this is that the char is a super invention char and the Hardware choice is the "2nd" choice. Thus making a "3rd" choice is not possible.

As to the OP Q….*shrugs* the power cats are written more like suggested guidelines for making a char. Thus, the player is freer to, with GM approval, to make core changes to the Power Cat text then they are with CC templates.

[Razorwing]

I would add an additional restriction, and I would actually add this restriction to all the Hardware characters:
In each Hardware category there is a section where if you give up certain things you can pick a second Hardware category. I would not allow this AND a Super Invention. Either/or, but not both options.
Not unless it was a mega-hero game and they wanted that instead of being a mega.

To be honest... I don't think it is completely necessary to restrict this option... any more than it would already be restricted by giving up one's budget and gimmicks. The reason for this is because such characters already have to give up a lot to get a second Hardware category... namely giving up Attacks per Melee and reducing skill bonuses... all to get more skills. To put it bluntly, the sacrifices needed to get a second Hardware category tend to be fairly steep already... and really don't give such an overwhelming advantage that it needs to be restricted. More skills but less actions per melee isn't that overpowering... yes, they have more skills to choose from for any given action... but less actions per melee to do anything significant. Even factoring in the possible extra attacks they might get from powers provided by their Invention... they will still generally be at a disadvantage to anyone with the same power who didn't give up their attacks for more skills.

Suffice it to say... I feel the restrictions on getting a Second Hardware category are sufficient to prevent players from abusing it in this manner... even when combined with the restrictions on combining Hardware and Super Invention characters.

[13eowulf]

I would add an additional restriction, and I would actually add this restriction to all the Hardware characters:
In each Hardware category there is a section where if you give up certain things you can pick a second Hardware category. I would not allow this AND a Super Invention. Either/or, but not both options.
Not unless it was a mega-hero game and they wanted that instead of being a mega.

To be honest... I don't think it is completely necessary to restrict this option... any more than it would already be restricted by giving up one's budget and gimmicks. The reason for this is because such characters already have to give up a lot to get a second Hardware category... namely giving up Attacks per Melee and reducing skill bonuses... all to get more skills. To put it bluntly, the sacrifices needed to get a second Hardware category tend to be fairly steep already... and really don't give such an overwhelming advantage that it needs to be restricted. More skills but less actions per melee isn't that overpowering... yes, they have more skills to choose from for any given action... but less actions per melee to do anything significant. Even factoring in the possible extra attacks they might get from powers provided by their Invention... they will still generally be at a disadvantage to anyone with the same power who didn't give up their attacks for more skills.

Suffice it to say... I feel the restrictions on getting a Second Hardware category are sufficient to prevent players from abusing it in this manner... even when combined with the restrictions on combining Hardware and Super Invention characters.

Not all Hardware categories have to give up attacks to pick up a second category.
I dont find the overall restrictions sufficient at all. Giving up a few WPs and reducing the additional skill bonuses is not at all a deterrent.
Since the Analytical Genius is the OP question, a Weapons Hardware Specialist doubling into Analytical, then taking Super Powered Items is top of the line munchkin and broken.

[eliakon]

I would not allow it.
The reasons are as follows
1) Analytical Genius's are already massively powerful on their own. They get a huge array of skills and special abilities. They don't need the special cheese.
2) The authors when writing this class were quite aware of the weapons genius and analytical genius and they STLL decided to say that they were not options. That tells me that the spirit of the thing was that no, you cant do it.

This is to me because
3) the Electrical and Mechanical genius's are, traditionally the weakest of the two forms and the least likely to be picked. In my experience I have never seen anyone voluntarily pick either one. Ever. They are almost totally superfluous to the Analytical genius. This however gives them a new reason to exist... an option that makes them be better than the Analytical in at least one area. I don't see any reason to take that away from them and give the Analytical yet another area of excellence. I mean come one, the class is already border line mary-sue as it is.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I would not allow it.
The reasons are as follows
1) Analytical Genius's are already massively powerful on their own. They get a huge array of skills and special abilities. They don't need the special cheese.
2) The authors when writing this class were quite aware of the weapons genius and analytical genius and they STLL decided to say that they were not options. That tells me that the spirit of the thing was that no, you cant do it.

This is to me because
3) the Electrical and Mechanical genius's are, traditionally the weakest of the two forms and the least likely to be picked. In my experience I have never seen anyone voluntarily pick either one. Ever. They are almost totally superfluous to the Analytical genius. This however gives them a new reason to exist... an option that makes them be better than the Analytical in at least one area. I don't see any reason to take that away from them and give the Analytical yet another area of excellence. I mean come one, the class is already border line mary-sue as it is.

I agree with this.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Voted with additional restrictions…"no doubling up on hardware types". However, I would apply this across the board for the hardware inventor selection for the SI PC.

[Razorwing]

Skills does not make a character powerful... no matter how many one has.

By this logic, someone with a Doctorate should be more powerful than someone with a Street level education.

Skills allow one to do more, but they still have a limited number of actions... and when you are using a skill, you generally can't use a power at the same time... unless both complement each other.

Electrical and Mechanical Hardware characters are seen as weak, not because of the skill they have, but rather because of the applicability of the equipment they tend to have. A Mechanical Hardware character is at his most powerful behind the wheel of one of his super vehicles... but outside of it... he isn't that great. Electrical Hardware characters are at their best with their electrical equipment and when hacking... take them out of that element and of course they will be weak.

Weapon Hardware characters seem strong because their expertise is with weapons... which is used for fighting... giving them the appearance of strength because that is all weapons are good for. Put them in a situation where they can not use weapons... or have to improvise the crudest of weapons... and their strength all but vanishes. The same is true for an Analytical Genius... their expertise may be a bit more broadly applicable... but it isn't nearly as specialized as the other classes. Sure... he could figure out how to operate a super vehicle... but wouldn't get the same performance out of it as a Mechanical Hardware character could.

These sub-categories aren't better or worse than each other... merely different from each other... with strengths and weaknesses of their own... and each has specific requirements for getting additional areas of expertise that balance out what is gained by taking another area of expertise. The actual advantage gained is with a more versatile character, but at the cost of their expertise (lower skill bonuses). This may not sound like much, but at the start of one's heroic career... loosing half of one's skill bonuses (not to mention attacks per melee) and a selection of skills will make the character less effective in both areas of expertise than he would be if he focused in one area alone. Yes... the Weapon Expert may still have the same number of attacks as before... but he won't be as skilled with the variety of weapons he otherwise would have been... and ALL other skills see their bonuses reduced by half (including new skills from the new area of expertise), meaning he will be less effective in those areas than a Hardware character that specialized in it.

To me... adding powers to this through a single (or multiple smaller) invention(s) is no different than say a Mutant with a Doctorate's Degree... both are going to have a lot of skills and comparable powers.

It isn't the skill or the powers that makes one Powerful... it is how one uses them than does. I see nothing unbalanced with such characters (save maybe their choice of powers which may be chosen specifically to overcome the inherent drawbacks of choosing another area of expertise). If a player wanted to play the inventor of a Super Invention as an Analytical Genus (and is willing to make the sacrifices to get the Weapon Expert area as a bonus), I don't see that as overpowered... yes, he will have a ton of skills... and even powers through his inventions... but he gets no other equipment other than the inventions (though might have a modest workshop... he had to build his inventions somewhere)... and is likely to be at a distinct skill and combat disadvantage compared to a player who went with a pure Analytical Genius or Weapons Expert (with their full budget and an array of gadgets). Overall... they wouldn't be more powerful than each other...merely different.

[eliakon]

Skills does not make a character powerful... no matter how many one has.

When the class is explicitly all about the skills?
Then yes, yes it does make you more or less powerful depending on the number of skills you get.
That is sort of the whole point of the Hardware class.

By this logic, someone with a Doctorate should be more powerful than someone with a Street level education.

They are.

Skills allow one to do more, but they still have a limited number of actions... and when you are using a skill, you generally can't use a power at the same time... unless both complement each other.

This is utterly, totally, and compleately logically flawed
1) it is not always true
2) it is not relevant to the question of if you are making one person even MORE powerful.
3) You cant use two powers at the same time, that does not mean that adding more powers to a person doesn't make them more powerful.

Electrical and Mechanical Hardware characters are seen as weak, not because of the skill they have, but rather because of the applicability of the equipment they tend to have.

No.
They are seen as weak because they get less skills, with less bonuses, in less areas of use than the Analytical.

A Mechanical Hardware character is at his most powerful behind the wheel of one of his super vehicles... but outside of it... he isn't that great. Electrical Hardware characters are at their best with their electrical equipment and when hacking... take them out of that element and of course they will be weak.

Which is
1) sophistry because the claim that "Hardware is powerful if they have their gear" is the entire point of hardware.
2) since no game I have ever been in has been hacking intensive that will, sort of by default mean that yes, electrical is weak and not considered viable. hence the reason to make it more viable.
The same goes with the mechanical character. Who needs a full vehicle as opposed to an analytical.

Weapon Hardware characters seem strong because their expertise is with weapons... which is used for fighting... giving them the appearance of strength because that is all weapons are good for. Put them in a situation where they can not use weapons... or have to improvise the crudest of weapons... and their strength all but vanishes. The same is true for an Analytical Genius... their expertise may be a bit more broadly applicable... but it isn't nearly as specialized as the other classes. Sure... he could figure out how to operate a super vehicle... but wouldn't get the same performance out of it as a Mechanical Hardware character could.

A weapons character is considered powerful because they get a huge array of skills, and a HF, and a huge array of weapons.
In a game that is very widely known for being heavily slanted toward combat. So yes, there is a reason they are considered potent.
Analytical characters are considered the best because they are better than mechanical hardware at making vehicles, better than electrical at electronics, can figure out other super vehicles, pilot power armor, and get more skills.
And for more fun... that Mechanical Hardware doesn't get any bonus to the performance out of the vehicle. Unless you apply a house rule.
They get a bonus to hotwire, and a skill to build super vehicles.
That's it.

These sub-categories aren't better or worse than each other... merely different from each other... with strengths and weaknesses of their own... and each has specific requirements for getting additional areas of expertise that balance out what is gained by taking another area of expertise. The actual advantage gained is with a more versatile character, but at the cost of their expertise (lower skill bonuses). This may not sound like much, but at the start of one's heroic career... loosing half of one's skill bonuses (not to mention attacks per melee) and a selection of skills will make the character less effective in both areas of expertise than he would be if he focused in one area alone. Yes... the Weapon Expert may still have the same number of attacks as before... but he won't be as skilled with the variety of weapons he otherwise would have been... and ALL other skills see their bonuses reduced by half (including new skills from the new area of expertise), meaning he will be less effective in those areas than a Hardware character that specialized in it.

Again, not each area pays the same price to get a second area
And no, each area is not 'equal' sorry.
Unless you really considerer "build super vehicle" to be an amazing skill that is equal to "analyze and operate device" and "Build/modify armor" for instance....

To me... adding powers to this through a single (or multiple smaller) invention(s) is no different than say a Mutant with a Doctorate's Degree... both are going to have a lot of skills and comparable powers.

The difference is that of night and day.
The mutant will ALWAYS get skills.
The question is which of 12 skill packages that are universally available to each and every player that RAW they will randomly be assigned.
Thus there is no question of 'special privileges" or the like.
In this case it is taking the system as written and deliberately stating that because the options offered are not powerful enough you want the even MORE powerful option.
This is especially because I note that it is people that are dissatisfied with the two options given that want to trade them in for the most powerful one...
...that then are trying to clain that the two offered are not really the weakest two options, and that the Analytical isn't really the most powerful and that they are all really just the same...
...if that is the case then they should be fine with the two options they have right?
But instead every single time the question is "But they don't get enough power! They don't get enough skill! Gimme the Analytical!"
That sort of makes my case for me here

It isn't the skill or the powers that makes one Powerful... it is how one uses them than does. I see nothing unbalanced with such characters (save maybe their choice of powers which may be chosen specifically to overcome the inherent drawbacks of choosing another area of expertise). If a player wanted to play the inventor of a Super Invention as an Analytical Genus (and is willing to make the sacrifices to get the Weapon Expert area as a bonus), I don't see that as overpowered... yes, he will have a ton of skills... and even powers through his inventions... but he gets no other equipment other than the inventions (though might have a modest workshop... he had to build his inventions somewhere)... and is likely to be at a distinct skill and combat disadvantage compared to a player who went with a pure Analytical Genius or Weapons Expert (with their full budget and an array of gadgets). Overall... they wouldn't be more powerful than each other...merely different.

If you were really on board with the idea that power was not a function of the category then you would not be so dead set on trying to get the most powerful version instead of being willing to take one of the canon options.
I don't seriously think that anyone is going to be able to say with a straight face that a Analytical Genius/Weapons Genius/Super Invention character is in any way shape or form remotely equivalent to an Electrical Genius.
All it does is further kick the Electrical and Mechanical Genius classes into the ghetto of "why take that worthless class when you can play something so much better and pretend that your not going for pure raw power."