Hardware Weapons build question

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filo_clarke
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Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by filo_clarke »

One of my players is modifying an existing weapon to suit her needs. Now, I admit to not have taken too much of an interest in the Hardware construction rules up to this point, so her request for guidance has got me doing research. Unfortunately I have a handful of questions that I hope those on the forums are better at answering.

She is taking an existing rifle, and modifying it into 1) a bullpup, 2) converting from semi- to selective-fire fully automatic, 3) converting from an integral box-magazine fed by stripper clips, to a removable box magazine, 4) building an integral suppressor into the barrel, 5) she also wants to lighten the weapon by removing the wood-furniture and replacing it with stamped sheet metal, 6) installing an integral weapon-light

Now I have had a look at the suggested penalties, but I am having difficulty with one, particular rule: "Number of Moving Parts".

Things like the suppressed barrel, and sheet metal body don't have any "Moving Parts", or do they? Do I count ALL of the moving parts of the rifle in the design, or just those that are being modified?

To make the weapon a bullpup, she has to move the trigger assembly forward of the magazine well, and move the ejector to the bottom of the gun, rather than the top. How many "Moving Parts" is this?

Removing the integral magazine, in favour of a removable magazine, is this one moving part (the new magazine), two moving parts (magazine & release button), three moving parts (magazine body, magazine spring, release button) or even more?

Does adding a weapon light count as another moving part? It has an on/off switch?

Any help you can provide would be amazing.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by dreicunan »

I definitely wouldn't count the light switch so long as it was part of the light being added. If she is actually doing all the wiring to the switch, however, then I could see it counting.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by Gryphon Chick »

It is a very complex rebuild. Moving parts or not, there will be a pretty considerable penalty.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by wyrmraker »

As a gunsmith, I can honestly state that these are not prohibitively difficult modifications.
1) a bullpup: This is little more than moving the action up the stock. Some custom configuring is required, but not difficult. A new stock is required, but easily designed.

2) converting from semi- to selective-fire fully automatic: Depending on the firearm, this would be anything from a part dropped into the action (the drop-in sear converting the AR-15 to M-16 comes to mind), to a new action that has to be machined out. All taught in gunsmithing class.

3) converting from an integral box-magazine fed by stripper clips, to a removable box magazine: This one's a bit trickier, but since the stock and furniture are being replaced, working the magazine feed into the design isn't hard. -10%

4) building an integral suppressor into the barrel: New barrel machined to purpose. -15%

5) she also wants to lighten the weapon by removing the wood-furniture and replacing it with stamped sheet metal: This one would be simple, but remember that weight and balance have quite a lot to do with accuracy. It comes down to what she builds the bullpup stock with, since the original furniture would be tossed. There are plenty of carbon fiber bullpup stock designs out there.

6) installing an integral weapon-light: If she's building her own bullpup stock, this would be simplicity itself to work in. If the stock itself has hollows (which most bullpups of artificial structure do), it would also be easy to run the wires for the contact switch.

That is my professional opinion. I hope it helps.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by filo_clarke »

Magnificent! Thank you so much for the comprehensive reply!
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

wyrmraker wrote:As a gunsmith, I can honestly state that these are not prohibitively difficult modifications.
1) a bullpup: This is little more than moving the action up the stock. Some custom configuring is required, but not difficult. A new stock is required, but easily designed.

2) converting from semi- to selective-fire fully automatic: Depending on the firearm, this would be anything from a part dropped into the action (the drop-in sear converting the AR-15 to M-16 comes to mind), to a new action that has to be machined out. All taught in gunsmithing class.

3) converting from an integral box-magazine fed by stripper clips, to a removable box magazine: This one's a bit trickier, but since the stock and furniture are being replaced, working the magazine feed into the design isn't hard. -10%

4) building an integral suppressor into the barrel: New barrel machined to purpose. -15%

5) she also wants to lighten the weapon by removing the wood-furniture and replacing it with stamped sheet metal: This one would be simple, but remember that weight and balance have quite a lot to do with accuracy. It comes down to what she builds the bullpup stock with, since the original furniture would be tossed. There are plenty of carbon fiber bullpup stock designs out there.

6) installing an integral weapon-light: If she's building her own bullpup stock, this would be simplicity itself to work in. If the stock itself has hollows (which most bullpups of artificial structure do), it would also be easy to run the wires for the contact switch.

That is my professional opinion. I hope it helps.


Well Stated, alot of what she wants to do is tech that has been around for decades. I personally would have gone with composites instead of stamped steel but that is a personal choice. I would have also added picatinny rails

I had fun redesigning a Webley MK VI to .500 S&W using Star Clips and a SA80 to .308 for my Hadware who is a R.E.M.E. Artificer quartermaster sergeant.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by filo_clarke »

I sort of deliberately didn't mention, but the game takes place in WWII, and the character is modifying an M1 Garand. I avoided mentioning this because I am aware that many people over the years have done all kinds of things to M1s, and M14s. I was worried that if I brought it up I would just get a flood of comments about existing M1 and M14 conversion kits, and options.

I am very happy with the responses that I have received and thank everyone for their input.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by wyrmraker »

Ah, I see. Setting matters quite a lot, as some of the techniques and equipment simply haven't been invented yet. This adjusts numbers a bit. Here are the adjustments to my previous post that I would add.
1) a bullpup: Easily designed, but tricky to manufacture during the era. -5%

2) converting from semi- to selective-fire fully automatic: No change

3) converting from an integral box-magazine fed by stripper clips, to a removable box magazine: Also no change

4) building an integral suppressor into the barrel: No change

5) she also wants to lighten the weapon by removing the wood-furniture and replacing it with stamped sheet metal: No change

6) installing an integral weapon-light: I would run a -5% on this, as the flashlights of that era weren't small, and contact switches tended to be somewhat clunky

Overall, I would say that it can be done in that era. A silenced bullpup M1 Garand, using materials of the era, would be about 32 inches long, weigh about 7.5 pounds, and have a hand made 20 round magazine. Total procedure in a decent machine shop would take about a week, most of which would be taken by the stock.

Take note that the integral barrel silencer will not allow some the the era's attachments designed for the M1. No rifle grenade (the baffling wouldn't allow the gasses to launch a grenade more than about 10 feet), and no bayonet (the barrel would be somewhat delicate).
Last edited by wyrmraker on Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

filo_clarke wrote:I sort of deliberately didn't mention, but the game takes place in WWII, and the character is modifying an M1 Garand. I avoided mentioning this because I am aware that many people over the years have done all kinds of things to M1s, and M14s. I was worried that if I brought it up I would just get a flood of comments about existing M1 and M14 conversion kits, and options.

I am very happy with the responses that I have received and thank everyone for their input.


Actually that makes it easier and harder. It would be easier to give the person a StG-44 Sturmgewehr or a BAR. they are both already magazine fed and automatic firing. The StG44 was selective fire and made of stamped steel.

John Garand had already done alot of the research on the conversions to selective fire and magazine fed instead of the en-bloc clip. I would start with the Tanker version.

I am not sure you could make it a bullpup because of where the gas tube is and how the bolt group and trigger interface, and how the sear works on the M14. Mostly the gas tube, it would be gassy as hell as a bullpup.

The silencer is a different matter since it would be a washer and can version and need to be cleaned and rebuild frequently so an integral one would be problematic. A removable one using interrupted threads would be better.

The Weapons light is stamped tin flaslight with 2 D-cell batteries clamped on.

I have to admit that I had figured out that you were starting with the M1
Last edited by SpiritInterface on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

wyrmraker wrote:Ah, I see. Setting matters quite a lot, as some of the techniques and equipment simply haven't been invented yet. This adjusts numbers a bit. Here are the adjustments to my previous post that I would add.
1) a bullpup: Easily designed, but tricky to manufacture during the era. -5%

2) converting from semi- to selective-fire fully automatic: No change

3) converting from an integral box-magazine fed by stripper clips, to a removable box magazine: Also no change

4) building an integral suppressor into the barrel: No change

5) she also wants to lighten the weapon by removing the wood-furniture and replacing it with stamped sheet metal: No change

6) installing an integral weapon-light: I would run a -5% on this, as the flashlights of that era weren't small, and contact switches tended to be somewhat clunky

Overall, I would say that it can be done in that era. A silenced bullpup M1 Garand, using materials of the era, would be about 32 inches long, weigh about 7.5 pounds, and have a hand made 20 round magazine. Total procedure in a decent machine shop would take about a week, most of which would be taken by the stock.

Take note that the integral barrel silencer will not allow some the the era's attachments designed for the M1. No rifle grenade (the baffling wouldn't allow the gasses to launch a grenade more than about 10 feet), and no bayonet (the barrel would be somewhat delicate).


The problem I have with the bullpup is that you are having to work the linkages around the gas tube which runs up to just in front of the magazine well
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by wyrmraker »

I'm not disagreeing with the technicals, but it really isn't terribly difficult. Especially bearing in mind that the baffling from the integral suppressor will spawn issues with round cycling due to less gas pressure. Trust me, that would be far more problematic of a workaround than a bullpup stock, thus the -15% penalty.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

wyrmraker wrote:I'm not disagreeing with the technicals, but it really isn't terribly difficult. Especially bearing in mind that the baffling from the integral suppressor will spawn issues with round cycling due to less gas pressure. Trust me, that would be far more problematic of a workaround than a bullpup stock, thus the -15% penalty.


The M1/M14 have the gas tube under the barrel which make for some interesting technical issues. With the gas tube/bolt group being right under your cheek in the bullpup config it is going to be gassy and hot. I am not saying it can't be done, just that the drawbacks are going to out weigh the benefits.

A thought just hit me, use a short stroke piston and rod to move the gas vent. Add another-10%

These are some of the best technical explanations of the M1 and the M14. They shows the changes that were made between the two.
https://youtu.be/GJJeBXZeVZU
https://youtu.be/I7Re5yQIWG8
https://youtu.be/1Kgnh4neVaY

As a GM I would give them the option to change the base platform to the StG44 it would eliminate several problems such as the greater recoil from the .30-06 that reducing the weight will bring especially with burst or full-auto. The 7.92x33k round would make the weapon more controllable. It would also allow the builder to skip steps 2, 3. and 5.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by wyrmraker »

Speaking personally, I would recommend the M1 Carbine. Fewer worries about gas issues, easily modifiable, and more easily suppressed. Using full powered battle rifle rounds would be a pain in this style of configuration. Even with a suppressor in place, muzzle flip and recoil are going to be beastly.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

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A friend of mine that games with me brought up an interesting question? What is the purpose of this weapon? What does the user want to do with it?
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by filo_clarke »

She is a paratrooper, and wants a smaller weapon both for the jumps themselves, but then also for any CQB that would follow. Magazines for quick reloads (she hoped to use BAR mags), selective automatic for suppressive fire, and silenced to avoid giving away her position to mortar teams. The flashlight is because she has been caught in the darkness during a house-to-house search in northern France, and doesn't want to repeat that.

She is determined to have a full-power rifle cartridge, rather than a submachinegun round, because we make use of Penetration Value a lot, and shooting through cover is a common occurrence.

Since the game takes place in 1942 the StG44 isn't an option (also her character is staunchly against taking "trophies" from the enemy).
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

filo_clarke wrote:She is a paratrooper, and wants a smaller weapon both for the jumps themselves, but then also for any CQB that would follow. Magazines for quick reloads (she hoped to use BAR mags), selective automatic for suppressive fire, and silenced to avoid giving away her position to mortar teams. The flashlight is because she has been caught in the darkness during a house-to-house search in northern France, and doesn't want to repeat that.

She is determined to have a full-power rifle cartridge, rather than a submachinegun round, because we make use of Penetration Value a lot, and shooting through cover is a common occurrence.

Since the game takes place in 1942 the StG44 isn't an option (also her character is staunchly against taking "trophies" from the enemy).


I would drop making it Bullpup, the Tanker version of the M1 Garand had a folding stock and pistol grip. Since the trigger guard and safety are integral to the trigger group and serve multiple purposes (re-cocking the hammer, unlocking the group for removal), putting in linkages in past the magazine well and that close to the recoil buffer spring and guide rod might cause problems unless you flip the gas system to above the barrel.

The selective fire is the easiest of everything since all you have to do is block the sear, which is simple. They put in a cam at the back of the receiver to move it in and out of position.

Since you are not changing the caliber of the weapon the 15rnd BAR Mag is a good choice.

I would change from a integral silencer to a quick release one, that way you don't mess with the Gas Piston/Recoil Spring. Any suppressor that would have any effect it would be 12'-18' long. Using an interrupted screw locking mechanism would make putting it on and taking it off easy.

Since you are replacing the wood with stamped steel you could build the light into the fore-grip. Personally I would skip the light since it won't be that strong, and it will draw fire.

Here are some images of the M1 Garand Tanker
http://i.imgur.com/8HcCQDf.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... l-guns.jpg
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by filo_clarke »

SpiritInterface wrote:I would drop making it Bullpup, the Tanker version of the M1 Garand had a folding stock and pistol grip. Since the trigger guard and safety are integral to the trigger group and serve multiple purposes (re-cocking the hammer, unlocking the group for removal), putting in linkages in past the magazine well and that close to the recoil buffer spring and guide rod might cause problems unless you flip the gas system to above the barrel.

The selective fire is the easiest of everything since all you have to do is block the sear, which is simple. They put in a cam at the back of the receiver to move it in and out of position.

Since you are not changing the caliber of the weapon the 15rnd BAR Mag is a good choice.

I would change from a integral silencer to a quick release one, that way you don't mess with the Gas Piston/Recoil Spring. Any suppressor that would have any effect it would be 12'-18' long. Using an interrupted screw locking mechanism would make putting it on and taking it off easy.

Since you are replacing the wood with stamped steel you could build the light into the fore-grip. Personally I would skip the light since it won't be that strong, and it will draw fire.

Here are some images of the M1 Garand Tanker
http://i.imgur.com/8HcCQDf.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... l-guns.jpg


Just so I am clear, what are you suggesting I tell my player? She can't do it? Or she shouldn't do it?

She chose a Hardware character so that she could innovate new designs, and from what I am reading, her designs are wrong (please bear in mind that the player is an accountant, not a gunsmith). Your suggestion seems to be that I go back and tell her all the ways that her Hardware character can't, or shouldn't, innovate. Looking at the above post, it is hard to understand whether the GM or the Player has final say in what is invented.

Please note that my original post simply asked for the penalties associated with such a project, and not a critique about whether it is the "best" design. My player had a concept she thinks is "cool", and wants to build. Now I have to decide to tell her if her ideas are wrong, or not.

What is the point of even playing a Hardware character?
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

filo_clarke wrote:...silenced to avoid giving away her position to mortar teams.
You are aware that a silencer only reduces the sound and it is still pretty loud, right?
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

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filo_clarke wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:I would drop making it Bullpup, the Tanker version of the M1 Garand had a folding stock and pistol grip. Since the trigger guard and safety are integral to the trigger group and serve multiple purposes (re-cocking the hammer, unlocking the group for removal), putting in linkages in past the magazine well and that close to the recoil buffer spring and guide rod might cause problems unless you flip the gas system to above the barrel.

The selective fire is the easiest of everything since all you have to do is block the sear, which is simple. They put in a cam at the back of the receiver to move it in and out of position.

Since you are not changing the caliber of the weapon the 15rnd BAR Mag is a good choice.

I would change from a integral silencer to a quick release one, that way you don't mess with the Gas Piston/Recoil Spring. Any suppressor that would have any effect it would be 12'-18' long. Using an interrupted screw locking mechanism would make putting it on and taking it off easy.

Since you are replacing the wood with stamped steel you could build the light into the fore-grip. Personally I would skip the light since it won't be that strong, and it will draw fire.

Here are some images of the M1 Garand Tanker
http://i.imgur.com/8HcCQDf.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... l-guns.jpg


Just so I am clear, what are you suggesting I tell my player? She can't do it? Or she shouldn't do it?

She chose a Hardware character so that she could innovate new designs, and from what I am reading, her designs are wrong (please bear in mind that the player is an accountant, not a gunsmith). Your suggestion seems to be that I go back and tell her all the ways that her Hardware character can't, or shouldn't, innovate. Looking at the above post, it is hard to understand whether the GM or the Player has final say in what is invented.

Please note that my original post simply asked for the penalties associated with such a project, and not a critique about whether it is the "best" design. My player had a concept she thinks is "cool", and wants to build. Now I have to decide to tell her if her ideas are wrong, or not.

What is the point of even playing a Hardware character?


No, I am not telling you to do anything. I am suggesting that you might suggest some alternatives that are easier. If you as a GM want to let her create her Rifle then let her. I was just trying to point out some of the difficulties and offer alternatives. I was also trying to stay close to the Tech of the day. I am sorry if I came off to negative. You as GM are the Final judge of what can and can't be done.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by Sir_Spirit »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
filo_clarke wrote:...silenced to avoid giving away her position to mortar teams.
You are aware that a silencer only reduces the sound and it is still pretty loud, right?

Meh, Hollywood silencers are magic.
She's a super, so let her build a magic silencer.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by RockJock »

We have played historical games, and tend to handle Hardware characters by giving them a time range to jump to. By that i mean we would give a Weapons Expert a number to work with, say 20, 30, or 40 years, and let them pull stuff from that time period as their "invention". That way the tech doesn't get too crazy, but the GM isn't spending tons and tons of time working out what makes sense.

Basically she wants an M-14 bullpup with a light. Let her have something statted accordingly. The penalties listed earlier are reasonable, and she could have always perfect one feature at a time if you allow Hardware to work that way.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

RockJock wrote:We have played historical games, and tend to handle Hardware characters by giving them a time range to jump to. By that i mean we would give a Weapons Expert a number to work with, say 20, 30, or 40 years, and let them pull stuff from that time period as their "invention". That way the tech doesn't get too crazy, but the GM isn't spending tons and tons of time working out what makes sense.

Basically she wants an M-14 bullpup with a light. Let her have something statted accordingly. The penalties listed earlier are reasonable, and she could have always perfect one feature at a time if you allow Hardware to work that way.



The GM I play with suggested That she start with the .30-06 round and the BAR Mag and "invent a new weapon around them with all the features she wanted given that she as access to any tool or machining equipment she wants or needs.

Stages and mods
Mag feed +/-0
Selective fire -5
Bullpup -5
Stamped Steel +/-0
Integral Suppressor -10
Integral Light w/switch +/-0
Sub components for light
Xenon bulb -15
compact high energy battery -20
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by filo_clarke »

Just so I am clear, you are suggesting that she CANNOT make the weapon that she originally designed, or that she SHOULD NOT make the weapon?

I am about to tell her that her idea is wrong and that, as a player, she does not have total control over what she wants to make. I just want to get this right.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

filo_clarke wrote:Just so I am clear, you are suggesting that she CANNOT make the weapon that she originally designed, or that she SHOULD NOT make the weapon?

I am about to tell her that her idea is wrong and that, as a player, she does not have total control over what she wants to make. I just want to get this right.



Again no, he was suggesting she go full hardware and make a totally unique custom weapon that uses the standard .30-06 round that the M-1 and the BAR used and the Magazine from the BAR. As part of the prosses she invent a better compact light buld that will give her better light than the bulbs of the day, and invent small but more powerful batteries that are rechargable.

His argument was that he sees Hardwares as prefering to build something personal instread of converting other peoples works.

What you do as the GM is your choice and only your choice I am not telling you anything.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by tsh77769 »

Hopefully this will tease your imagination and give food for thought...

Shorter & lighter (much) but otherwise pretty normal Garand
http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/the-mini-g/

Magazine fed Garand new school
http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/mag-fed-garand/

Magazine fed Garand old school (and an official Italian weapon directly based on the Garand ain fact some actually ARE converted Garands)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_BM_59

WAY FAR advanced and ahead of its time (look at the weight and the features) WWII LMG used by Marines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1941_Johnson_machine_gun
EXTREMELY IMPRESSIVE and actually used by US.

Modern revision of the BAR automatic rifle
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015 ... orks-hcar/

Oldschool bullpup version of the M14
http://sniperrifle.wikia.com/wiki/AWC_G2

Newschool bullpup converison of the M14
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/jugger ... is-system/

For a heavy sniper or anti material rifle check this out
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-mo ... or-the-ss/

For all kinds of awesome historical firearms, ancient and modern this place is UNBEATABLE
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/

Enjoy.
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Re: Hardware Weapons build question

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

filo_clarke wrote:Just so I am clear, you are suggesting that she CANNOT make the weapon that she originally designed, or that she SHOULD NOT make the weapon?

I am about to tell her that her idea is wrong and that, as a player, she does not have total control over what she wants to make. I just want to get this right.
No, no no. Let her try and build what she wants. If you believe it is wrong, make it more difficult a build. Do not tell her she can't try and do it.
"SG, you are a limitless fountain of Butt-Saving Advice. You Rock, Stone and Concrete." ~ TrumbachD
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