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 Post subject: Soul Drinking Weapons
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:02 am
  

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One of the many controversial items presented in the Armageddon Unlimited sourcebook was a new take on the infamous Soul Drinking weapons.

Before this book came out, this ability was believed by many (both in the setting and by players) to be one of the most powerful abilities any weapon could have. Drawing even a single drop of blood of an opponent while using one of these dreaded weapons gave one the chance to drain their soul from them, killing them instantly and permanently (even a miracle resurrection by a God had only the smallest of chances of bring the victim of a soul drinker weapon back from the dead). As one can imagine, finding such a weapon can make one truly feared... and only the bravest of heroes would willingly face an opponent that wielded such a weapon. One bad save vs. magic and the character you have spent weeks, months or even years playing is gone in an instant with almost no hope of recovery... ever. It is one of the few weapons that can literally kill an entire party with but a scratch to them each.

Of course one also has to realize that the only way blood is actually drawn from a potential victim is by doing Hit Point damage... which means if a character has a lot of SDC and decent armor, they may be able to fend off this power long enough to actually survive the encounter. Still... it is a weapon that was rightly feared and dreaded.

Then came Armageddon Unlimited with a new take on these infamous weapons as it introduced them "officially" for the first time to the Heroes Unlimited setting. The change was a subtle but significant change. Yes, one could still loose their soul to such a weapon, but having one's soul stolen wasn't lethal in and of itself. A person who had their soul stolen could survive and even live for a few years without it... but at a diminished capacity. They would be weaker in almost every respect... and could no longer gain experience while their soul was separated from their body (not to mention they couldn't resist being possessed by any being capable of doing so). Further more, the soul could be transferred from the weapon that stole it into a viable receptacle and transported to other locations to be used as currency or even as a power source for other dread magics.

This of course would allow players to potentially recover such a stolen soul and save the life of the victim of this despicable crime... allowing for the player to continue playing a character they have invested much time and energy into. Mythology and modern comics are rife with examples of noble heroes venturing into hellish worlds to save the soul of a dear friend or comrade in arms... sometimes at enormous cost (usually risking their own souls in the attempt).

Other than this new take, the Soul Drinking remains more or less the same. It still requires the weapon taking the soul to draw blood (HP damage) and the potential victim needs to fail a save vs. magic (14+). Ultimately, it is still lethal in that the body can not survive indefinitely without a soul (as little as 2 years or as much as 12 years, with 7 years being the average) before the body turns to dust.

Some have voiced the opinion that this was one of the worst things that could be done to these dreaded weapons... that the fear of them would be lessened if the one who's soul was taken survived the experience... no matter how weakened they may be. Some even argued that if this were allowed, then it should be possible for a body to survive when one's astral projection has been lost on the Astral Plane beyond the normal time limit (and similar arguments). Many likely see this as a weakening of this dreaded power... to the point where it is no longer something to be feared... and thus no longer as powerful as it once was.

They may be correct.

From a purely gaming standpoint... I can see how the thought that loosing one's soul to such a weapon can be truly frightening... going up against an enemy with such a weapon means that one is truly risking the life of the character they have invested weeks, months and even years into. Even if they have a high bonus to save vs. magic, there is still that small chance of making a bad save and loosing the character instantly and forever. By the same token, I can see why Carl Gleba offered this alternative... to give players who have fallen victim to these dreaded weapons a chance to save their characters... to escape the almost certain fate of all who loose their souls. I can imagine the lengths that a heroic victim of such a theft may go to retrieve their soul... even willingly commit acts as heinous as the stealing of souls in the slim hope that theirs will be returned (and that they may one day undo the damage they will cause in retrieving their soul). But what if it isn't the player's character whose soul was taken, but that of one of their character's loved ones (child, lover, spouse, parent, friend)? What is a hero willing to do to save those they care about?

To me the difference is clear cut. With the original version, having one's soul taken is game over... end of story (possibly the entire campaign). Roll a new character and hope that if you ever encounter that weapons again, you make your save vs. magic. With the new version, the game takes a whole different turn and new adventures present themselves (even if it changes the course of a campaign for a time). Yes, you may not save yourself or your loved ones... but at least you have a chance (slim as it may be). It can be just as telling of the character's true nature as before... but at least one isn't a victim of a single unlucky roll of the dice. Simply put... the story continues.

I am curious as to what others think of this optional change on Soul Drinker weapons (all things are optional... no matter how official they may be). In the end, I don't see anyone's opinion as right or wrong (whether they agree with me or not), but I am curious as to how they rationalize their choice given that there really seems to be only two options (the character dies instantly and almost certainly permanently [because of a bad save]... or they merely delay their eventual demise as they try to recover what they lost). Would you consider taking this optional system to the greater Megaverse... to wherever Soul Drinker weapons can be found... or keep it to just the Heroes Unlimited setting?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:27 am
  

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Comment: The silent thief of Rozrehxeson.
As I remember it, the souls that are drank are sent to Hades or Dyval, correct? That's the assumption I'm running with here in my reply.

I like the idea of this change, and especially with the hellish weapons in AU that have the ability it works. But Megaversally, it's a tough retcon. Now any soul drinking weapon, regardless of alignment, sends the souls it drinks to Hell? I think I like it better as an optional version of Soul Drinking, appropriate to certain hellish weapons but not all soul drinkers. It fits in the Heroes Unlimited universe well, and fits with the Demons & Deevils well, but...

Well, consider the Splugorth. They mass-produce rune weapons, and they can be soul drinkers. What use does the Splugorth have for a soul? What value does a soul drinking weapon have that drains a body of a soul but lets the body keep fighting? Why would they make a soul drinking weapon that shuffles souls to hell?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:54 pm
  

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My take these are not your typical Soul drinkers as these ones were , created by hell and dyval who want souls .


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:31 pm
  

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That was probably done for the role playing aspect of it being Heroes Unlimited. The
super heores would go rescue another super beings soul. As for the trickle down
theory that this now applies to all Soul Drinking weapons, like everyone said. I doubt
the Atlantiian/Splurgorth Rune Weapons send souls to Hades. I thinking the soul is
simply contained or devoured by the weapon. I suppose if you don't like auto kill
which Kevin is a no a fan of, then it makes sense to have soul drink weapon not be
the end of all things, and you as a player have a chance to rescue your soul.
However, if this is something you G.M. and you are not going ot engage in, then the
soul drink is an instant death. In my games this ability is so lethal that you have to
roll 14 or better (no additional bonus to save, including magic bonuses). Even dragon,
demi-gods, elementals, etc can have their souls drank. Only beings immune to soul
drink are gods, demon/deevil lords, and alien intelligences.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:46 pm
  

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Glistam wrote:
As I remember it, the souls that are drank are sent to Hades or Dyval, correct? That's the assumption I'm running with here in my reply.

I like the idea of this change, and especially with the hellish weapons in AU that have the ability it works. But Megaversally, it's a tough retcon. Now any soul drinking weapon, regardless of alignment, sends the souls it drinks to Hell? I think I like it better as an optional version of Soul Drinking, appropriate to certain hellish weapons but not all soul drinkers. It fits in the Heroes Unlimited universe well, and fits with the Demons & Deevils well, but...

Well, consider the Splugorth. They mass-produce rune weapons, and they can be soul drinkers. What use does the Splugorth have for a soul? What value does a soul drinking weapon have that drains a body of a soul but lets the body keep fighting? Why would they make a soul drinking weapon that shuffles souls to hell?


Actually, no. The weapon stores the soul (presumably in a limbo-like pocket dimension within it) and can release the soul either back into the original body or into a storage vessel for transport to other places (like Hades and Dyval). Such souls often end up powering different devices or are used as a form of currency.

And the Splugorth don't mass produce rune-weapons. Yes, they make them... and more often than people think... but that isn't the same as mass production. They don't have factories churning them out on assembly lines. Producing them in mass quantities would reduce their profits from astronomical to moderately expensive. More importantly... most people only suspect the Splugorth make such weapons (the knowledge that they make them is OOC for most)... they don't actually have proof that they do. Yes, the sell them (many beings do so), but the Splugorth tend to go to great lengths to make it appear than new Rune Weapons they have for sell are actually recently found... so as to deflect suspicion of the origin of the weapon away from them.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:21 pm
  

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Razorwing wrote:
Glistam wrote:
As I remember it, the souls that are drank are sent to Hades or Dyval, correct? That's the assumption I'm running with here in my reply.

I like the idea of this change, and especially with the hellish weapons in AU that have the ability it works. But Megaversally, it's a tough retcon. Now any soul drinking weapon, regardless of alignment, sends the souls it drinks to Hell? I think I like it better as an optional version of Soul Drinking, appropriate to certain hellish weapons but not all soul drinkers. It fits in the Heroes Unlimited universe well, and fits with the Demons & Deevils well, but...

Well, consider the Splugorth. They mass-produce rune weapons, and they can be soul drinkers. What use does the Splugorth have for a soul? What value does a soul drinking weapon have that drains a body of a soul but lets the body keep fighting? Why would they make a soul drinking weapon that shuffles souls to hell?


Actually, no. The weapon stores the soul (presumably in a limbo-like pocket dimension within it) and can release the soul either back into the original body or into a storage vessel for transport to other places (like Hades and Dyval). Such souls often end up powering different devices or are used as a form of currency.

And the Splugorth don't mass produce rune-weapons. Yes, they make them... and more often than people think... but that isn't the same as mass production. They don't have factories churning them out on assembly lines. Producing them in mass quantities would reduce their profits from astronomical to moderately expensive. More importantly... most people only suspect the Splugorth make such weapons (the knowledge that they make them is OOC for most)... they don't actually have proof that they do. Yes, the sell them (many beings do so), but the Splugorth tend to go to great lengths to make it appear than new Rune Weapons they have for sell are actually recently found... so as to deflect suspicion of the origin of the weapon away from them.

*point of order* The Splugorth do have Rune Factories. They are explicitly mentioned by name on page 166 of CB 2 under the Asgardian Dwarves "Also, Splugorth raiders have been known to kidnap Asgardian Dwarves to force them to work and teach in their rune factories."

Which makes a lot of sense since the Splugorth have BILLIONS of Rune Weapons.
Every single Conservitor is issued a Rune weapon... that is over 100,000 just in Atlantis right there.
Every High Lord who is a Rune Master gets 2 of them. (and the number is less than 2%... but if it was 1% or less then they would use 1% so we can assume that at a MINIMUM 1% and change of all High Lords are Rune Masters) And there are 3,000,000 High Lords in Atlantis (so that means 30,000+ Rune Masters)
They are regularly issued out to other High Lords, and elite minions.
There are two hundred MILLION High Lords and Conservators in the Kingdom of Rynncryyl...
Then there are the Rune Statues that are said to be everywhere...
The Splugorth are quite literally mass producing Rune Weapons.

(For the curious, the math works out to there being somewhere between 60,000 and 150,000 Rune Weapons issued out just on Atlantis That is weapons alone. That doesn't count the stuff in private hands, or the statues, or anything else.)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:47 am
  

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Comment: The silent thief of Rozrehxeson.
Razorwing wrote:
Glistam wrote:
As I remember it, the souls that are drank are sent to Hades or Dyval, correct? That's the assumption I'm running with here in my reply.

I like the idea of this change, and especially with the hellish weapons in AU that have the ability it works. But Megaversally, it's a tough retcon. Now any soul drinking weapon, regardless of alignment, sends the souls it drinks to Hell? I think I like it better as an optional version of Soul Drinking, appropriate to certain hellish weapons but not all soul drinkers. It fits in the Heroes Unlimited universe well, and fits with the Demons & Deevils well, but...

Well, consider the Splugorth. They mass-produce rune weapons, and they can be soul drinkers. What use does the Splugorth have for a soul? What value does a soul drinking weapon have that drains a body of a soul but lets the body keep fighting? Why would they make a soul drinking weapon that shuffles souls to hell?


Actually, no. The weapon stores the soul (presumably in a limbo-like pocket dimension within it) and can release the soul either back into the original body or into a storage vessel for transport to other places (like Hades and Dyval). Such souls often end up powering different devices or are used as a form of currency.

The idea that a soul-drinking weapon stores the soul for a time before it's permanently lost, and the soul can be retrieved, is an idea I like a lot better. That the body is functional after soul removal is tougher for me to like on a Megaversal level, but as it's been said it's a great Heroes Unlimited device. I think a nice compromise would be for the body to enter a coma and die in a set amount of time unless its soul is returned or the body is possessed. I like that mixture of these ideas the best.

_________________
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kiralon: "...the best way to kill an old one is to crash a moon into it."

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:57 am
  

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Hero

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Posts: 1000
eliakon wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
Glistam wrote:
As I remember it, the souls that are drank are sent to Hades or Dyval, correct? That's the assumption I'm running with here in my reply.

I like the idea of this change, and especially with the hellish weapons in AU that have the ability it works. But Megaversally, it's a tough retcon. Now any soul drinking weapon, regardless of alignment, sends the souls it drinks to Hell? I think I like it better as an optional version of Soul Drinking, appropriate to certain hellish weapons but not all soul drinkers. It fits in the Heroes Unlimited universe well, and fits with the Demons & Deevils well, but...

Well, consider the Splugorth. They mass-produce rune weapons, and they can be soul drinkers. What use does the Splugorth have for a soul? What value does a soul drinking weapon have that drains a body of a soul but lets the body keep fighting? Why would they make a soul drinking weapon that shuffles souls to hell?


Actually, no. The weapon stores the soul (presumably in a limbo-like pocket dimension within it) and can release the soul either back into the original body or into a storage vessel for transport to other places (like Hades and Dyval). Such souls often end up powering different devices or are used as a form of currency.

And the Splugorth don't mass produce rune-weapons. Yes, they make them... and more often than people think... but that isn't the same as mass production. They don't have factories churning them out on assembly lines. Producing them in mass quantities would reduce their profits from astronomical to moderately expensive. More importantly... most people only suspect the Splugorth make such weapons (the knowledge that they make them is OOC for most)... they don't actually have proof that they do. Yes, the sell them (many beings do so), but the Splugorth tend to go to great lengths to make it appear than new Rune Weapons they have for sell are actually recently found... so as to deflect suspicion of the origin of the weapon away from them.

*point of order* The Splugorth do have Rune Factories. They are explicitly mentioned by name on page 166 of CB 2 under the Asgardian Dwarves "Also, Splugorth raiders have been known to kidnap Asgardian Dwarves to force them to work and teach in their rune factories."

Which makes a lot of sense since the Splugorth have BILLIONS of Rune Weapons.
Every single Conservitor is issued a Rune weapon... that is over 100,000 just in Atlantis right there.
Every High Lord who is a Rune Master gets 2 of them. (and the number is less than 2%... but if it was 1% or less then they would use 1% so we can assume that at a MINIMUM 1% and change of all High Lords are Rune Masters) And there are 3,000,000 High Lords in Atlantis (so that means 30,000+ Rune Masters)
They are regularly issued out to other High Lords, and elite minions.
There are two hundred MILLION High Lords and Conservators in the Kingdom of Rynncryyl...
Then there are the Rune Statues that are said to be everywhere...
The Splugorth are quite literally mass producing Rune Weapons.

(For the curious, the math works out to there being somewhere between 60,000 and 150,000 Rune Weapons issued out just on Atlantis That is weapons alone. That doesn't count the stuff in private hands, or the statues, or anything else.)


A lot of what Palladium prints can be... conflicting... between different books (and even different parts of the same book). I wouldn't really call the so called "Rune Factories" mass production... Rune Weapons require too much specialized work to be mass produced like automobiles or computers. More to the point, the level of power of Rune Weapons (Lesser, Greater and Greatest) will determine how often they can be made. At best, such "factories" would be more like artisan workshops that hand craft rather than mass produce items (the difference being the speed at which the items can be made... which in the case of Rune Weapons will never be fast).

Lesser Rune weapons (the weakest) rarely have any special abilities other than standard 8 powers... and only require moderately powerful souls to make... so the chances are they can be manufactured the fastest (yet even then it is likely to take months to years to do so). I would argue that 95-99% of the Rune Weapons issued out are of this low quality... their only real power being that they do a minimum of 4d6 damage.

Greater and Greatest Rune Weapons however are likely to take years or even decades (possibly centuries) to craft... simply because of the powerful souls needed to craft these weapons (Gods, Ancient Dragons and such are never easy to acquire). These powerful weapons (where you find the Soul Drinkers) are the rarest of the rarest weapons... and probably number between 1 to 5% of all Rune Weapons... reserved only for the most loyal of loyal minions... and sold only rarely.

One also has to remember how long the Splugorth have existed as an empire (or more precisely, hundreds of tiny empires throughout the Megaverse). Splyncryth is 72,000 years old... with many others being much, much older. Even if they only make one or two Lesser Rune Weapons a year, over such a long span of time, it adds up... to a lot for even a single Splugorth (and much, much more when one takes their entire species into account). Even if it takes a hundred years to produce a Greatest Rune weapon, that leaves their numbers in the hundreds, possibly thousands (even hundreds of thousands if one counts all the Splugorth).

Simply put... if the Splugorth were making these weapons any faster... EVERYONE would KNOW that they possess this magic... rather than just plundering rune weapons from every corner of the Megaverse they can. Most people believe that all rune weapons were created thousands of years ago and that very few beings still possess this knowledge (many believe that it has actually been lost to the Megaverse and seek to keep it that way). The Splugorth want people to believe this too... which is why they likely don't mass produce them like you claim... the creation of a few Lesser Weapons a year can be disguised... as can the discovery of a Greater Weapon a decade or a Greatest Weapon a century. The Splugorth have time on their side... and that can add up to a lot over the millennia.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:18 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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Glistam wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
Glistam wrote:
As I remember it, the souls that are drank are sent to Hades or Dyval, correct? That's the assumption I'm running with here in my reply.

I like the idea of this change, and especially with the hellish weapons in AU that have the ability it works. But Megaversally, it's a tough retcon. Now any soul drinking weapon, regardless of alignment, sends the souls it drinks to Hell? I think I like it better as an optional version of Soul Drinking, appropriate to certain hellish weapons but not all soul drinkers. It fits in the Heroes Unlimited universe well, and fits with the Demons & Deevils well, but...

Well, consider the Splugorth. They mass-produce rune weapons, and they can be soul drinkers. What use does the Splugorth have for a soul? What value does a soul drinking weapon have that drains a body of a soul but lets the body keep fighting? Why would they make a soul drinking weapon that shuffles souls to hell?


Actually, no. The weapon stores the soul (presumably in a limbo-like pocket dimension within it) and can release the soul either back into the original body or into a storage vessel for transport to other places (like Hades and Dyval). Such souls often end up powering different devices or are used as a form of currency.

The idea that a soul-drinking weapon stores the soul for a time before it's permanently lost, and the soul can be retrieved, is an idea I like a lot better. That the body is functional after soul removal is tougher for me to like on a Megaversal level, but as it's been said it's a great Heroes Unlimited device. I think a nice compromise would be for the body to enter a coma and die in a set amount of time unless its soul is returned or the body is possessed. I like that mixture of these ideas the best.


For most people, I would agree that entering a coma is a more likely outcome for having their soul taken... but heroes (Super or merely heroic like most OCCs in other game lines) are a different breed of character. One could say that any PC is of the heroic inclination simply because they stand above the average person who would never be likely to go adventuring or become a Super Hero of any sort. More importantly though, no player worth their salt would willingly want to miss out on a grand adventure with their comrades. Most players I know find it very boring when they have to even momentarily stand down when the party splits up and one group finds something of interest or gets into a fight (on a few occasions, I've had to remind some that they are not currently with a particular group because they chose to go off on their own for various reasons). To sideline a player because their soul was taken seems a little extreme most of the time.

This would also help to show just how different Heroic characters are from the normal populace... where a normal mortal is rendered comatose while missing their soul, a Hero can continue to function, albeit significantly diminished. This truly puts most Heroes in the same category of legendary and mythic heroes who often journeyed into the Underworld (or other hellish dimensions) to retrieve the souls of their loved ones... or even to recover their own souls. How one justifies this is entirely up to them (perhaps the Heroic character retains the smallest fraction of their soul... or that they hadn't been killed (last HP taken) when their soul was stolen that they retain some small connection to it that allows them to continue functioning).

In the end... there is so much that isn't known about the "Soul" that is taken by these weapons that we could justify almost any take on what happens... to the body or the soul... when it is stolen by these weapons.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:47 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
Glistam wrote:
As I remember it, the souls that are drank are sent to Hades or Dyval, correct? That's the assumption I'm running with here in my reply.

I like the idea of this change, and especially with the hellish weapons in AU that have the ability it works. But Megaversally, it's a tough retcon. Now any soul drinking weapon, regardless of alignment, sends the souls it drinks to Hell? I think I like it better as an optional version of Soul Drinking, appropriate to certain hellish weapons but not all soul drinkers. It fits in the Heroes Unlimited universe well, and fits with the Demons & Deevils well, but...

Well, consider the Splugorth. They mass-produce rune weapons, and they can be soul drinkers. What use does the Splugorth have for a soul? What value does a soul drinking weapon have that drains a body of a soul but lets the body keep fighting? Why would they make a soul drinking weapon that shuffles souls to hell?


Actually, no. The weapon stores the soul (presumably in a limbo-like pocket dimension within it) and can release the soul either back into the original body or into a storage vessel for transport to other places (like Hades and Dyval). Such souls often end up powering different devices or are used as a form of currency.

And the Splugorth don't mass produce rune-weapons. Yes, they make them... and more often than people think... but that isn't the same as mass production. They don't have factories churning them out on assembly lines. Producing them in mass quantities would reduce their profits from astronomical to moderately expensive. More importantly... most people only suspect the Splugorth make such weapons (the knowledge that they make them is OOC for most)... they don't actually have proof that they do. Yes, the sell them (many beings do so), but the Splugorth tend to go to great lengths to make it appear than new Rune Weapons they have for sell are actually recently found... so as to deflect suspicion of the origin of the weapon away from them.

*point of order* The Splugorth do have Rune Factories. They are explicitly mentioned by name on page 166 of CB 2 under the Asgardian Dwarves "Also, Splugorth raiders have been known to kidnap Asgardian Dwarves to force them to work and teach in their rune factories."

Which makes a lot of sense since the Splugorth have BILLIONS of Rune Weapons.
Every single Conservitor is issued a Rune weapon... that is over 100,000 just in Atlantis right there.
Every High Lord who is a Rune Master gets 2 of them. (and the number is less than 2%... but if it was 1% or less then they would use 1% so we can assume that at a MINIMUM 1% and change of all High Lords are Rune Masters) And there are 3,000,000 High Lords in Atlantis (so that means 30,000+ Rune Masters)
They are regularly issued out to other High Lords, and elite minions.
There are two hundred MILLION High Lords and Conservators in the Kingdom of Rynncryyl...
Then there are the Rune Statues that are said to be everywhere...
The Splugorth are quite literally mass producing Rune Weapons.

(For the curious, the math works out to there being somewhere between 60,000 and 150,000 Rune Weapons issued out just on Atlantis That is weapons alone. That doesn't count the stuff in private hands, or the statues, or anything else.)


A lot of what Palladium prints can be... conflicting... between different books (and even different parts of the same book). I wouldn't really call the so called "Rune Factories" mass production... Rune Weapons require too much specialized work to be mass produced like automobiles or computers. More to the point, the level of power of Rune Weapons (Lesser, Greater and Greatest) will determine how often they can be made. At best, such "factories" would be more like artisan workshops that hand craft rather than mass produce items (the difference being the speed at which the items can be made... which in the case of Rune Weapons will never be fast).

The word "factory" does not mean "Assembly line"
This is important because there are historical examples of artisan style factories. Simply put it is a place where a huge number of skilled crafts people make large numbers of an item. This is important because...

Razorwing wrote:
Lesser Rune weapons (the weakest) rarely have any special abilities other than standard 8 powers... and only require moderately powerful souls to make... so the chances are they can be manufactured the fastest (yet even then it is likely to take months to years to do so). I would argue that 95-99% of the Rune Weapons issued out are of this low quality... their only real power being that they do a minimum of 4d6 damage.

That argument though is not supported by the book.
Every conservitor gets either a Lesser or Greater weapon. So, it is possible that they usually get lesser weapons (not supported by the NPCs but lets go with it)
HOWEVER every single Rune Master gets 2 Rune Weapons. 1 Lesser and 1 GREATER.
That means that just on Atlantis alone (not counting his other worlds) the Young and relatively weak Splynncryth has at least 30,000 Greater Rune Weapons! And that is if we low ball the numbers of Rune Masters AND assume that there are no other weapons issued!
So Just on Atlantis your looking almost 50% of all rune weapons being Greater or Greatest!

Razorwing wrote:
Greater and Greatest Rune Weapons however are likely to take years or even decades (possibly centuries) to craft... simply because of the powerful souls needed to craft these weapons (Gods, Ancient Dragons and such are never easy to acquire). These powerful weapons (where you find the Soul Drinkers) are the rarest of the rarest weapons... and probably number between 1 to 5% of all Rune Weapons... reserved only for the most loyal of loyal minions... and sold only rarely.

There is absolutely zero to support this idea though. There is nothing in the books to suggest that Rune Weapons take years to craft let alone decades. This is especially important because of the lifespans of people that are making them, and the numbers of items that they produce.
There is in fact reason to doubt that Soul Drinkers are some sort of super rare novelty. It is only somewhat rare in Greater Rune weapons... for Greatest? It is just one of the stock features to pick from, and is built into 3 of the 8 "generic" Greatest Weapons in Atlantis.

Razorwing wrote:
One also has to remember how long the Splugorth have existed as an empire (or more precisely, hundreds of tiny empires throughout the Megaverse). Splyncryth is 72,000 years old... with many others being much, much older. Even if they only make one or two Lesser Rune Weapons a year, over such a long span of time, it adds up... to a lot for even a single Splugorth (and much, much more when one takes their entire species into account). Even if it takes a hundred years to produce a Greatest Rune weapon, that leaves their numbers in the hundreds, possibly thousands (even hundreds of thousands if one counts all the Splugorth).

Again this requires ignoring the books.
The books clearly state how many of what sorts of Rune Weapons are handed out.
AND making up a limitation like "it really takes a century to make" to prove that they take a long time doesn't do anything other than demonstrate that by making up things one can change things to be anything one wants.
Once Again. Splynncryth has 30,000-60,000+ Greater Rune Weapons on just Atlantis. There are MILLIONS of Greater Rune Weapons in the Kingdom of Ryclythh in Phase world, and based on the books there is no reason to think that Splynncryth has much fewer.
(And again this is just counting the weapons of the Rune Masters. This does not count any of the OTHER groups that are listed as getting Rune Weapons on a "frequent enough to mention here but not common enough to give a percent to" basis like Powerlords)

Razorwing wrote:
Simply put... if the Splugorth were making these weapons any faster... EVERYONE would KNOW that they possess this magic... rather than just plundering rune weapons from every corner of the Megaverse they can. Most people believe that all rune weapons were created thousands of years ago and that very few beings still possess this knowledge (many believe that it has actually been lost to the Megaverse and seek to keep it that way). The Splugorth want people to believe this too... which is why they likely don't mass produce them like you claim... the creation of a few Lesser Weapons a year can be disguised... as can the discovery of a Greater Weapon a decade or a Greatest Weapon a century. The Splugorth have time on their side... and that can add up to a lot over the millennia.

The problem with this is, again the book doesn't agree with it. It didn't work when WB2 came out and it is flatly impossible now.
There are to many problems, and not just the simple fact that the numbers don't work.
There is the simple fact that there are several Splugorth specific Rune Items.
Or that there are several new developments in Rune Weapons.
Or that the Splugorth have their Rune Statues.
Or that it is pretty much impossible to be hiding the hundreds of millions if not billions of Rune Masters that they collectively have.
There of course there is that the "Rune magic is secret" got blown out of the water in Phase World when they retconned everting.
Besides retroactively adding TW to the Megaverse (previously it was supposedly a brand new development found only in North America) they made it explicitly clear that the UWW publicly has the knowledge of Rune Magic, and of course there is the fact that Pantheons was quite clear that the Asgardian Dwarves are publicly known to be Rune Smiths, and then there was the list of gods in Pantheons and Dragons and Gods that are openly making Rune Items for their groups...

In sum
Rune Magic, as of Pantheons (let alone Phase World) is no longer secret anywhere but Palladium Fantasy.
The Splugorth as a race, by the books, have Greater Rune weapons stockpiles in the hundreds of millions if not billions.
And to do this all they basically need to be mass producing Rune Weapons.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:38 am
  

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Hero

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To be honest... I think all of this talk is distracting from the point of the thread... which wasn't to discuss how many Rune Weapons are in existence... but rather whether or not the idea that Soul Drinkers should be instantly lethal with no hope of recovery of the stolen soul.

In the end, how many Rune Weapons the Splugorth (or any group) have or don't have isn't likely to matter. The reason why they were even brought up was because of the mistaken belief that this new take on Soul Drinking presented in Armageddon Unlimited was believed to send the stolen souls directly to Hades or Dyval the moment it was taken from a victim... and the logical question of why the Splugorth would send souls to those dimensions was asked.

Simply put... there is no evidence that the new take on Soul Drinking sends such souls to those dimensions. It is actually stated that the souls are likely stored within the weapons... in a dimensional void similar to that which is believed to be used to house the soul that power Rune Weapons in general. In other words, the Soul Drinking weapons created by the Splugorth don't send souls to Hades or Dyval... nor do the ones made by Deevils or Demons (at least not usually).

As for all those Gods and minions that can make Rune Weapons for specific Pantheons... just because a God or a Dwarf can make them, it doesn't mean that they are making them at EVERY moment of their existence. Such weapons are usually requested by the pantheons they serve and can take years to forge. Most Rune Smiths only make them when they have a reason to... even if it is to see if they can. The same is true for the Splugorth... they aren't making them to give to every High Lord and Conservator that serve them... but rather that over the eons of their existence, they have created or otherwise acquired enough of these items that they can do so... though even then there is likely many minions that don't have such weapons (because they either haven't earned them yet or some how lost them... or even fell out of favor and had them taken away). I doubt that Kevin Seimbieda ever intended for players to take the number of minions of a given kind and used that (however logically) to extrapolate the ludicrous number of such weapons needed for them.

Simply put, the equipment stated is likely for important NPCs that players are likely to deal with... not the nameless High Lord in a backwater town on an unknown world in a forgotten dimension in the furthest corner of the Megaverse that the players are not likely to ever encounter. Are your players going to track down all 3 million High Lords that are estimated to be on Atlantis, just to find the 2% of them that are Rune Smiths so that they can take their Rune Weapons? No? Then why are that many rune weapons actually needed? Is the High Lord Rune Smith they encounter going to be some random High Lord you just roll up on a whim... or is he more likely to be an intentional adversary they will have to deal with? If it is the former... does he even have these potential rune weapons on him (and thus making himself a target for thieves or raiders brave enough to try to accost him in Atlantis... or any other Splugorth stronghold)?

In the end... no matter how common a book may make Rune Weapons out to be... they are only available to players if you, the GM, choose to make them available. Even if the High Lord Rune Smith that has been the focus of an entire adventure owns one, that doesn't mean he has it with him... or it even on Earth when the players track him down. It could be in any number of places... especially if he believed there was a risk that it could be lost or stolen from him (sure, not having it may mean he doesn't have it powers at his disposal when he faces the Players... but it also robs them of the chance to claim a powerful weapon should they be lucky enough to defeat him... the chance to laugh in a would-be hero's face when they learn that the powerful weapon they had hoped to claim is nowhere near where they defeated him is something more than a few villains would enjoy in their last moments... villains can be such p***ks).

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:59 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
To be honest... I think all of this talk is distracting from the point of the thread... which wasn't to discuss how many Rune Weapons are in existence... but rather whether or not the idea that Soul Drinkers should be instantly lethal with no hope of recovery of the stolen soul.

For my .02 on this.
I think that it should be instantly lethal with hope of recovery of the stolen soul.

Razorwing wrote:
In the end, how many Rune Weapons the Splugorth (or any group) have or don't have isn't likely to matter. The reason why they were even brought up was because of the mistaken belief that this new take on Soul Drinking presented in Armageddon Unlimited was believed to send the stolen souls directly to Hades or Dyval the moment it was taken from a victim... and the logical question of why the Splugorth would send souls to those dimensions was asked.

Fair enough. That was a mistaken belief and it should be corrected.

Razorwing wrote:
Simply put... there is no evidence that the new take on Soul Drinking sends such souls to those dimensions. It is actually stated that the souls are likely stored within the weapons... in a dimensional void similar to that which is believed to be used to house the soul that power Rune Weapons in general. In other words, the Soul Drinking weapons created by the Splugorth don't send souls to Hades or Dyval... nor do the ones made by Deevils or Demons (at least not usually).

This is how I read it myself. That they drink the soul and then can 'spit it back up' later

Razorwing wrote:
As for all those Gods and minions that can make Rune Weapons for specific Pantheons... just because a God or a Dwarf can make them, it doesn't mean that they are making them at EVERY moment of their existence. Such weapons are usually requested by the pantheons they serve and can take years to forge.

I agree with part 1 of that. I still do not see any evidence for the second claim other than you claiming it is so.

Razorwing wrote:
Most Rune Smiths only make them when they have a reason to... even if it is to see if they can. The same is true for the Splugorth... they aren't making them to give to every High Lord and Conservator that serve them... but rather that over the eons of their existence, they have created or otherwise acquired enough of these items that they can do so... though even then there is likely many minions that don't have such weapons (because they either haven't earned them yet or some how lost them... or even fell out of favor and had them taken away). I doubt that Kevin Seimbieda ever intended for players to take the number of minions of a given kind and used that (however logically) to extrapolate the ludicrous number of such weapons needed for them.

The point is that there are billions of Greater Rune Weapons in Splugorth possession, and I don't even want to think about how many trillions of Rune Statues.
Which they have had no more than 100,000 years to collect, since before that their was this minor issue called "The Great Old Ones" to deal with.

Razorwing wrote:
Simply put, the equipment stated is likely for important NPCs that players are likely to deal with... not the nameless High Lord in a backwater town on an unknown world in a forgotten dimension in the furthest corner of the Megaverse that the players are not likely to ever encounter. Are your players going to track down all 3 million High Lords that are estimated to be on Atlantis, just to find the 2% of them that are Rune Smiths so that they can take their Rune Weapons? No? Then why are that many rune weapons actually needed? Is the High Lord Rune Smith they encounter going to be some random High Lord you just roll up on a whim... or is he more likely to be an intentional adversary they will have to deal with? If it is the former... does he even have these potential rune weapons on him (and thus making himself a target for thieves or raiders brave enough to try to accost him in Atlantis... or any other Splugorth stronghold)?

That is your prerogative sure.
But the books don't say "significant characters that get named walk on parts of the show get the following equipment"
We don't assume that only CS soldiers that the characters meet will have their entire issue of basic gear... why would we assume that anyone else would similarly be short changed?

Razorwing wrote:
In the end... no matter how common a book may make Rune Weapons out to be... they are only available to players if you, the GM, choose to make them available. Even if the High Lord Rune Smith that has been the focus of an entire adventure owns one, that doesn't mean he has it with him... or it even on Earth when the players track him down. It could be in any number of places... especially if he believed there was a risk that it could be lost or stolen from him (sure, not having it may mean he doesn't have it powers at his disposal when he faces the Players... but it also robs them of the chance to claim a powerful weapon should they be lucky enough to defeat him... the chance to laugh in a would-be hero's face when they learn that the powerful weapon they had hoped to claim is nowhere near where they defeated him is something more than a few villains would enjoy in their last moments... villains can be such p***ks).

This is not about "are they available to players"
This is about more fundamental questions.
For example. The fact that the Splugorth can, and do, mass produce Rune Weapons, the fact that Heroes Earth is canonically linked to Rifts Earth, and the fact that Weapons of Order/Chaos are Rune Weapons opens up the interesting concept of the Splugorth being a key source of Weapons of Order/Chaos.

This is about understanding that Rune Weapons are, in the big scheme of things, Not Really That Rare. They really ARE mass produced for issue out to (elite) troops...
...which means it is totally possible to justify making a batch of indentical Weapons of Order/Chaos for such a group of troops (Not in any way to be a conversion but just an example... the Power Rings of the Green Lantern Corps)

This is about understanding that there are a number of known, public rune smiths operating right now...
...which means that it is possible to have one forged custom to order for a character (or out of one).

Basically, to me, this is about understanding what the books allow so that when dreaming we can dream big. The books allow for huge things...let us not hobble them

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:47 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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Unless you plan to stat up EVERY SINGLE High Lord, Conservator and any other Splugorth minion that receives Rune Weapons of any power level (that's millions if not billions of them), then the number of Rune Weapons that the Splugorth may or may not actually have is irrelevant.

How many High Lord Rune Smiths are your players likely to encounter over the course of a campaign? 1? 2? 5? 12? 100? 1,000,000? Let's be realistic... the number is likely fairly few. Even Conservators are not likely to be many (that your players encounter). So... what does it matter if theoretically there could be thousands or even millions... but your players are ever likely to encounter only a few of them... never enough to make them realize that the Splugorth have the vast stores of these weapons that the books claim. Even the minions that have them may not realize that they are not unique in this respect... thinking that they are truly favored by their Splugorth Master for receiving them (or that it was taken from another minion in disfavor). Not even the High Lord Rune Smiths are fully trusted with all the information needed to make Rune Weapons on their own.

The same is true of other Rune Smiths though out the Megaverse. The chances of encountering an Asguarian Dwarf isn't that great... and the chances of them making a rune weapon for a character is even less. The same goes for any of the Gods that make rune weapons for their fellow Gods.

In the end, who has what and how many is irrelevant to this discussion. This isn't about what the Splugorth may or may not have... or how they got it (and who knows the truth).

And for the proof of how long it takes to make rune weapons... look to the Asguardian Dwarf description in Pantheons. It states that it takes months even years to forge a Rune Weapon... and requires exotic materials (though what these may be are not specified), incredible amounts of PPE and the living essence of a powerful being. The more powerful the rune weapon, the (likely) longer it will take to create. Since we haven't been given exact times for such things (only the vaguest of suggestions for such), there is no way to know an exact timeline for such construction.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:27 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
Unless you plan to stat up EVERY SINGLE High Lord, Conservator and any other Splugorth minion that receives Rune Weapons of any power level (that's millions if not billions of them), then the number of Rune Weapons that the Splugorth may or may not actually have is irrelevant.

I am not sure what your issue here is?
Do you claim that because there are not stats for every soldier that there is not CS gear?
The simple fact is that things exist even if they do not have character sheets.
And if there are, for example, a several billion of something then it should not be claimed to be extreamely rare.
THAT is my point. The relevance is that the number of rune weapons out, just in Splugorth hands not counting any other faction, demonstrates that they are exotic yes, but hardly rare-unto-nigh-unique.

Razorwing wrote:
How many High Lord Rune Smiths are your players likely to encounter over the course of a campaign? 1? 2? 5? 12? 100? 1,000,000? Let's be realistic... the number is likely fairly few. Even Conservators are not likely to be many (that your players encounter). So... what does it matter if theoretically there could be thousands or even millions... but your players are ever likely to encounter only a few of them... never enough to make them realize that the Splugorth have the vast stores of these weapons that the books claim. Even the minions that have them may not realize that they are not unique in this respect... thinking that they are truly favored by their Splugorth Master for receiving them (or that it was taken from another minion in disfavor). Not even the High Lord Rune Smiths are fully trusted with all the information needed to make Rune Weapons on their own.

Again, things exist even with out the PCs encountering them.
This is not some quantum experiment where unless it is observed by a PC it does not exist.
In most games a PC will never meet a god or a Vampire Intelligence, or a Splugorth. And yet they all exist.

Razorwing wrote:
The same is true of other Rune Smiths though out the Megaverse. The chances of encountering an Asguarian Dwarf isn't that great... and the chances of them making a rune weapon for a character is even less. The same goes for any of the Gods that make rune weapons for their fellow Gods.

In the end, who has what and how many is irrelevant to this discussion. This isn't about what the Splugorth may or may not have... or how they got it (and who knows the truth).

I am wondering if there is a discussion here or if you have a preset point that you wish to make.

Razorwing wrote:
And for the proof of how long it takes to make rune weapons... look to the Asguardian Dwarf description in Pantheons. It states that it takes months even years to forge a Rune Weapon... and requires exotic materials (though what these may be are not specified), incredible amounts of PPE and the living essence of a powerful being. The more powerful the rune weapon, the (likely) longer it will take to create. Since we haven't been given exact times for such things (only the vaguest of suggestions for such), there is no way to know an exact timeline for such construction.

Months even years is not anything remotely like centuries.


So I reiterate again.
The entire point of knowing how common Rune Weapons are is to dispel the myths about rune weapons so that they can be properly used by an author who is writing for the game line. After all an author should be working from the actual canon as already written and not using their own personal fanon as the basis for their writing.
Thus we learn several things that, to borrow the trite saying, make the options more "unlimited"
Again, as I pointed out knowing that there are vast numbers of Rune Weapons out there, and that there is already precedent for making specific Greatest Rune weapons to template (the various set kinds of rune weapons in Atlantis for example), and that there is precedent for issuing out rune weapons as standard issue to certain classes we arrive at the conclusion that we can make certain standardized Weapons of Order/Chaos for use.
Now how does this help us? I will provide an example.
If we are writing a book on magic, we could, theoretically describe a mystical order.
My hypothetical order will be "The Order of the Argent Shield"
The Order is an order of champions of "goodness and light" and are sponsored by a number of pantheons of light. Their badge of office is the Silver rune swords that they each bear.
These swords are all Weapons of Order and all have the following powers
Healing Touch, Spit Lighting, Sense Magic, Fly, Mystic Shields, Tongues, and grants the Major Super Ability of Karmic Power.
When activated they will summon the battle dress of the Order, a pale green gi trimmed in silver, with a sash and boots of black.

Previously the idea of an entire organization that has a custom Magic Weapon would have seemed outrageous. But once the facts are known it becomes quite reasonable... and thus we get to add to the game. It takes away nothing to use the written material as is, but just adds.

I can keep going on if people like on the advantages of knowing the true scope and scale of Rune use in the Megaverse, numbers, histories, etc.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:20 pm
  

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Knight

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Razorwing wrote:
one also has to realize that the only way blood is actually drawn from a potential victim is by doing Hit Point damage... which means if a character has a lot of SDC and decent armor, they may be able to fend off this power long enough to actually survive the encounter. Still... it is a weapon that was rightly feared and dreaded.

This sounds like a house rule to me.

You can begin losing SDC to blood loss from a stab or gunshot prior to losing HP, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:26 am
  

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IMHO, the soul drinking weapon of HU is a different one from the "classic" Rifts or Palladium Fantasy weapon.

For the hero aspect, it makes sense, that you can save a stolen sould and restore the character - this could be epic adventures. For Rifts and Palladium Fantasy it makes sense, that the soul is lost and the character dead after a successful soul drinking attack.

So for me there are 2 types of soul drinking weapons. And do not forget Wormwood's soul batteries.

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Last edited by Ice Dragon on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:58 am
  

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Knight

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There's basically 2 kinds of drinking, Armageddon is the light version.

Soul Eating is much worse (tentac and deathkiss only) since there's no release, it just consumes it.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:38 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
There's basically 2 kinds of drinking, Armageddon is the light version.

Soul Eating is much worse (tentac and deathkiss only) since there's no release, it just consumes it.

Possibly 3 kinds
Diet Soul Drinking (Armageddon Unlimited)
Soul Drinking Classic (all other previous soul drinking except...)
Soul Eating (where in the soul is consumed and there in destroyed and can no longer be restored by any means. Tentac and Deathkiss and possibly the Dwarven Demon Blades such as Necrom)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:13 pm
  

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Knight

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I'm trying to remember where we got explanations of "classic", did it mention instant death from failing the save?

Where can I learn more of this Necrom?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:57 pm
  

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Atlantis was the first one I've seen rune weapons in, but they came from PFRPG. I don't know which book in that setting explained them first but they're in the 2nd Ed main book. Both versions say that failing to save vs soul drinking is instant death.

Necrom is from Adventures in the Northern Wilderness for 1st ed PFRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:03 am
  

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Knight

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I checked and can't actually find explicit mention of death...

Palladium RPG revised 137
    The drinking of souls is the actual absorption of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn before the rune weapon can devour its soul. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash . A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost.

Palladium Fantasy 2nd 252
    The drinking of souls is the actual absorption and imprisonment of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon
    (cut, stabbed or impaled) before the rune weapon can devour the life essence. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash. A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost.

Basically remained intact with some elaboration. Doesn't seem to actually explain what having one's life essence absorbed does though. Perhaps people assumed this is what "forever lost" meant, but you can be lost while alive, no?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:23 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
I checked and can't actually find explicit mention of death...

Palladium RPG revised 137
    The drinking of souls is the actual absorption of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn before the rune weapon can devour its soul. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash . A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost.

Palladium Fantasy 2nd 252
    The drinking of souls is the actual absorption and imprisonment of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon
    (cut, stabbed or impaled) before the rune weapon can devour the life essence. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash. A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost.

Basically remained intact with some elaboration. Doesn't seem to actually explain what having one's life essence absorbed does though. Perhaps people assumed this is what "forever lost" meant, but you can be lost while alive, no?
So you are suggesting that Soul Drinkers are such feared weapons because they basically turn you into Ryoga Hibiki minus the turning into a piglet when you get splashed with cold water?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:49 am
  

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Knight

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Not sure what you mean in regard to Ryoga. Hades 66 effects may not be instant death but they're not negligible:

>the victim turns pale (and remains that way) and looks sickly, but feels otherwise okay
>A Soul Catcher consumed soul has 6+1D4 years to live in a limbo state, and the soulless body dies one year after it does

Was Ryoga pale/sickly? Was he doomed to die in 8-13 years?

Armageddon 18's Soul Blast is weird, so I'll ignore that (it has to kill you first, similar to Soul Eating, so not really an 'instant' power, plus it somehow brings you to life in Hell)

Armageddon 57's description seems a closer fit to the classic "lost" idea from the PRPG:
    odd feeling of emptiness
    all super abilities or spell casting abilities are reduced by 30%
    Spell casters who lose their soul see their P.P.E. reduced by 30%.
    psychics see I.S.P' reduced by 30%.
    character can not advance in levels until the soul is recovered
    character has no ability to save vs possession
    M.E. attribute is reduced by half
    If the soul is not recovered in 2D6 years, the body dies
    nothing short of a miracle could bring the soulless character back to life

Where Hades/Armageddon seem to differ is Soul Catchers do eventually cause the soul to die, whereas the Soul Slayer rune weapon doesn't actually cause the soul to die, but the body will still die without requiring the soul to die first (which is a prerequisite for body death via the Greater Demon)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:17 am
  

Adventurer

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 693
Axelmania wrote:
Not sure what you mean in regard to Ryoga. Hades 66 effects may not be instant death but they're not negligible:

>the victim turns pale (and remains that way) and looks sickly, but feels otherwise okay
>A Soul Catcher consumed soul has 6+1D4 years to live in a limbo state, and the soulless body dies one year after it does

Was Ryoga pale/sickly? Was he doomed to die in 8-13 years?

Armageddon 18's Soul Blast is weird, so I'll ignore that (it has to kill you first, similar to Soul Eating, so not really an 'instant' power, plus it somehow brings you to life in Hell)

Armageddon 57's description seems a closer fit to the classic "lost" idea from the PRPG:
    odd feeling of emptiness
    all super abilities or spell casting abilities are reduced by 30%
    Spell casters who lose their soul see their P.P.E. reduced by 30%.
    psychics see I.S.P' reduced by 30%.
    character can not advance in levels until the soul is recovered
    character has no ability to save vs possession
    M.E. attribute is reduced by half
    If the soul is not recovered in 2D6 years, the body dies
    nothing short of a miracle could bring the soulless character back to life

Where Hades/Armageddon seem to differ is Soul Catchers do eventually cause the soul to die, whereas the Soul Slayer rune weapon doesn't actually cause the soul to die, but the body will still die without requiring the soul to die first (which is a prerequisite for body death via the Greater Demon)

Ryoga Hibiki is constantly lost in that he has no sense of direction.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:08 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3411
Ah, I saw the entire TV series of that, ashamed I didn't make the connection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:51 am
  

User avatar
D-Bee

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:34 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Kitchener, ON
It's definitely a good change for Heroes Unlimited, and it turns the soul drinking consequence from "game over" to a quest to retrieve the soul. I would likely extend this to all my other games using soul drinking weapons, and probably will once I pick up AU. Also, the soul drinking weapons lineage in terms of when they were made and published comes from a very old product, respectively, and Palladium has evolved the game towards durability and survivability over time. This fits with that general change. Whether this represents an official glimpse of the evolution of these rules for the rune weapon? Maybe?

I really never payed much attention to the inclusion of soul-drinking weapons in my Rifts games back in the day, as giving them to a player seemed too much, and using them on the players would be too cruel. I'm definitely writing from memory.

For my own part, I always viewed the Palladium soul drinking to work a lot like the Soul Reaver sword from the Legacy of Kain/Soul Reaver series. Sure, they came well after my original reading of the weapon type, but after playing LoK Defiance I sat down and stated up the Soul Reaver!


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