Are Heroic Hellions Mega-Heroes?

[Razorwing]

I think the title sums the question up nicely.

The only reason I can see Heroic Hellions from Armageddon Unlimited would be considered Mega-Heroes are the fact they automatically receive Supernatural Strength (but not the actual Major Power) and use the Mega-Hero experience table.

While I understand that the Heroic Hellion is a variant of the Demonic Immortal (from the Immortal category), not all Immortals are Mega-Beings... and other than Supernatural Strength (and possibly their level of regeneration), the Hellion receives no Mega-Powers that I can see. Yes, they still retain vulnerabilities due to their demonic nature... but that doesn't make them a Mega-Hero (even if they roll on the Mega-Hero vulnerability table).

No where does it actually state that they are rolled up like a Mega-Hero (like the Immortal category often says)... and while they do get a fair amount of automatic abilities, most are relatively minor in scope and offset the limited Super Abilities they have access to. Even the Greater Supernatural Being option doesn't make for a noticeably stronger character (higher initial attributes and more HP/SDC by default... but not enough to warrant being called a Mega).

All in all, I would have to conclude that though they are "technically" an Immortal category variant... they aren't a Mega-Being by default... and as such could have the actual Mega-upgrade to represent a truly powerful Hellion who has become heroic (with actual Mega-Powers... save that of Immortality).

Opinion aside... I am looking for definitive (official) proof and such that Heroic Hellions are Mega-Heroes... not what people "believe" they are.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Second printing forward of Powers Unlimited 2, lists all Immortals as Mega Heroes.

Heroic Hellion is a Demonic Immortal Variant.

Therefore via the books, they're mega heroes. Your proof is there in black and white. It tells you what it is.

My Opinion..... which you can take or leave. Is that you're vastly underselling the class and trying to hand wave a huge amount of stuff as "Relatively minor'

As a personal aside I find a few of your 'points' to be.... a bit off.
They -do- come with natural supernatural strength, a 'Free' Major Superpower.
They come with supernatural PE (Though good luck finding what that actually does)
They use the Mega hero EXP table
Magically understands and speaks all languages
heals three times faster than Humans
can instantly bio regenerate up to 80Sdc or hit points.
Lives 1000+ years (( 100 per pe point, PE starts at 10-22, so 1000-2200 years)
Humanoid metamorphosis.

Then you roll, three more abilities. From Breath with out air, to body weapons,(minor power), to Claws (Minor power), Darkness control (Major power), EE Energy or lightning, both Minor powers, Super speed minor power, winged or wingless flight, both minors, Impervious to cold, fire or drugs, all minor powers, Invisability, a major power.

So... yeah off the top you get the above list and three minor or major super powers. (Don't forget hte major power of supernatural strength already in there)

And that's for the LESSOR.

Then you get demonic appearances that can add more weapons and armor to the character 3d6 damage and enhanced attibutes, wings etc...

You're given vulnerabilities just like a mega hero and infact can pick from the other mega hero ones.

Then you get an addition set of bonuses (For no apparent reason)

And that's for the minor version. It takes a jump up if you chose the major.

I'm not sure how you're seeing this as a ho-hum class with no indication it's a mega... it's got.. every indication it is. Your notion of the abilitys being 'realitivly minor in scope' seems far out of line from the class I read that stacks abilities over and over including rolls on charts to give the possibility of a minimum of 3 minor powers and possible majors, in addition to the major one of supernatural strength, and --all-- the other bonuses.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Yes, they are definitely Mega-Heroes. I actually feel they are a little too powerful even for being that.

[Razorwing]

Second printing forward of Powers Unlimited 2, lists all Immortals as Mega Heroes.

Heroic Hellion is a Demonic Immortal Variant.

Therefore via the books, they're mega heroes. Your proof is there in black and white. It tells you what it is.

My Opinion..... which you can take or leave. Is that you're vastly underselling the class and trying to hand wave a huge amount of stuff as "Relatively minor'

As a personal aside I find a few of your 'points' to be.... a bit off.
They -do- come with natural supernatural strength, a 'Free' Major Superpower.
They come with supernatural PE (Though good luck finding what that actually does)
They use the Mega hero EXP table
Magically understands and speaks all languages
heals three times faster than Humans
can instantly bio regenerate up to 80Sdc or hit points.
Lives 1000+ years (( 100 per pe point, PE starts at 10-22, so 1000-2200 years)
Humanoid metamorphosis.

Then you roll, three more abilities. From Breath with out air, to body weapons,(minor power), to Claws (Minor power), Darkness control (Major power), EE Energy or lightning, both Minor powers, Super speed minor power, winged or wingless flight, both minors, Impervious to cold, fire or drugs, all minor powers, Invisability, a major power.

So... yeah off the top you get the above list and three minor or major super powers. (Don't forget hte major power of supernatural strength already in there)

And that's for the LESSOR.

Then you get demonic appearances that can add more weapons and armor to the character 3d6 damage and enhanced attibutes, wings etc...

You're given vulnerabilities just like a mega hero and infact can pick from the other mega hero ones.

Then you get an addition set of bonuses (For no apparent reason)

And that's for the minor version. It takes a jump up if you chose the major.

I'm not sure how you're seeing this as a ho-hum class with no indication it's a mega... it's got.. every indication it is. Your notion of the abilitys being 'realitivly minor in scope' seems far out of line from the class I read that stacks abilities over and over including rolls on charts to give the possibility of a minimum of 3 minor powers and possible majors, in addition to the major one of supernatural strength, and --all-- the other bonuses.

Maybe I am underestimating the usefulness of many of these abilities, but let's analyze your conclusions first.

1) Supernatural Strength: First, this is NOT a "free" Major power. Neither Hellions nor Megas get the actual Major Power of Supernatural Strength that adds 30 to their PS attribute. These characters merely get the lifting and damage equivalent to Supernatural PS of their current score... even if that is a mere PS of 3 (unlikely, but possible). So while I will give you the acknowledgement that this is the same as what Megas receive... it isn't the "free" major power you claim it is.

2) Supernatural Endurance: The only benefit this appears to give is that in an MDC setting, these beings become MDC tough. However... since this is Heroes Unlimited (which is not an MDC setting) this isn't useful. Beyond this, there is nothing that really differentiates Supernatural Endurance from normal. So, without more to go on... this really does nothing (unless you plan on going to an MDC setting).

3) Mega Hero Experience Table: Experience tables do not decide who is a Mega Hero and who isn't. Empowered characters use the Experiment Experience table... but are not experiments. Eugenic characters use the Bionics Experience table, but are anything but bionic. Gestalts use the Magic Experience table but may not be magical in origin. Your logic that a character using the Mega Hero Experience table is a Mega Hero is flawed... and thus can not be used as proof that Hellions should be seen as Megas.

4) Magically Understands all Languages: This is more or less the magical equivalent to a language translator... technology that isn't beyond the capacity of Hardware characters to build (doesn't Fabricators Inc. offer something to this effect) or even alien characters. Overall though this isn't that impressive a power... there is often little need for most HU characters to travel beyond the city/country they call home to another country or even world where knowing additional languages becomes necessary (and even in the latter case... many worlds seem to either have an English-like language or the above mentioned translators on hand). Simply put... the chances of this power being used or useful in any way are generally slim.

5) Heals faster than Humans: Considering how slow natural healing actually is... this isn't all that impressive... as even the weakest Healing power is still better than this (though there is that one mention of healing at 2d6 HP/SDC per hour which is significantly better than 3 times as fast as humans; humans don't heal at 1d4 HP/SDC per hour). That said... it is still within the range of accelerated Healing that Megas tend to receive so I will concede this point.

6) Bio-Regeneration: True, this also plays into the above healing ability, but the Hellion's ability is still not that impressive. The average lesser Hellion will have a PE of 16 (baring increase through physical skills)... which makes the average HP/SDC of 107/48 at first level (average of 24 PE for greater Hellions for 258/144 HP/SDC ratio at first level). Both get the same level of Bio-Regeneration, so technically the more powerful Hellion has a weaker Bio-Regeneration ability when comparing how much it heals them. Yes, the maximum level of healing is 80 pts... but the average is closer to between 50 and 60 HP or SDC once every 24 hours... that is an average of about 1/3rd of what a Lesser Hellion has... and 1/8th of the greater Hellion (1/2 of a Lesser's total at best and 1/5th of a Greater's at maximum healing). Again... this Bio-Regeneration can only be done once in a 24 hour period (which means that they have to wait 24 hours after they do it before they do so again; I have seen players try to argue that they can use it once 1 minute before midnight on one day and then again 2 minutes later since it is technically a different day; just want to make us clear on what once per 24 hours is and isn't). Again... not that impressive when one takes into account the amount of HP/SDC that these characters can have (which isn't that different from what normal heroes can attain) and we haven't included any special abilities or physical skills that increase this (and yes, physical skills still increase attributes and SDC of these characters).

7) Long lifespan: I am willing to concede that this is somewhat similar to the mega-power of Longevity (Hellions don't receive the Immortality Mega-Power that most Immortals have; not sure all Immortals now get this power as of 2nd printing).

8) Humanoid Metamorphosis: Remember, Hellions can change into a single humanoid form, but can not mimic a specific person (though some of the Deevil and Demonic races that have such a power naturally might retain it should they become a Hellion). This is a unique appearance that is the same every time it is used... not unlike the mortal form of a Mystically Bestowed character when not powered up. If Bestowed characters are not automatically Megas for having a effectively equivalent ability, then we can't use this as proof that Hellions should be.

9) Additional Abilities: Now, I will grant you that some of the abilities on the additional abilities table are equal to minor and major powers, the Hellion still only gets 3 choices... which is more or less equivalent to what normal power categories offer. Even the psionic and magic options, while impressive, are still limited for the Hellion doesn't get any additional powers as they grow in experience... what they choose at level 1 is all they will ever get. At best, these characters will get the equivalent of 2 Major Powers (Darkness Control and Invisibility) and a Minor power... but there is only a 10% chance of getting one of those abilities (and a smaller chance of getting both). There is also a chance to get a one additional Major or minor power equivalent through additional demonic features, but the chances are fairly small (unless one is specifically selecting such features which will automatically skew the actual chances of attaining such features randomly... there is a reason that it is suggested that such rolls be random). Again, we can't count the Supernatural Strength as being a Major power here as it isn't the actual Major Power... merely the equivalent lifting and damage capacity. The Greater Hellion is even more limited as they automatically loose 1 selection of powers for an automatic Magic spellcasting ability... so they can only gain the two specific Major powers mention above... and possibly an extra with Demonic features... but again with random rolls that may not be likely (and while they get a greater selection of spells, this too is all they get; and let's not forget that while their PPE base increases, their rate of recovery does not... but that is a problem with spell magic in general and something for a different discussion).

10) Vulnerabilities: Yes, Hellions have Vulnerabilities of their own, due to having been a demonic creature of some sort. However these vulnerabilities are not in the same league as the Mega Hero (though that table can be used). This in itself is also not an indicator that such a character is a Mega... a number of powers provide innate vulnerabilities (Intangibility provides a weakness to airborne toxins... or rather they pass directly into a person in such a state; APS Fire is vulnerable to water, cold and such... at least to a degree; some aliens from specific environments are likewise vulnerable to environments that are opposite of what they are used to. In most cases, even substances that can harm a demonic character when made into a weapon merely ignore any Natural Armor rating and do double damage... but not directly to HP unless ingested. All in all, the vulnerabilities provided in the Hellion section are relatively minor compared to the Mega-Vulnerabilities... and goes a long way to justifying the handful of minor abilities mentioned above (checks and balances to preserve game balance).

11) Greater Hellions: Other than higher initial stats and a greater amount of HP/SDC, the Greater Hellion isn't that much more powerful than the Lesser Hellion... and still doesn't come close to the overall power level of a Mega. Let us also remember that Hellions DO NOT see their power ranges increase by 50% nor do they get the +50% to SDC that Megas get.

And this is just comparing the randomly rolled Hellion that one can generate... specific Lesser and Greater Demons and Deevils may be even more limited in abilities (since any magic or Psionics they possess are already determined, they don't get to roll for additional powers, appearance or vulnerabilities, these are already determined with the specific race of Lesser/Greater Demon/Deevil).

If an average hero can take on a Lesser Demon one on one with little problem (let alone a group of such heroes doing the same), as mentioned in the Superhuman vs. Supernatural commentary on pg 76 of Armageddon Unlimited... I really don't see how a Heroic Hellion (which is arguably the equivalent) can be considered a Mega Hero able to take on a small group of normal Heroes... especially since a lot of the factors that would make even a Lesser Demon a threat to a group of heroes doesn't apply to Hellions (Hellions don't run in packs as there are way too few of them for this to happen on any kind of regular basis... they aren't lead by a Greater Hellion... they don't serve powerful entities like Demon Lords or Alien Intelligences... they are not likely to have mortal worshipers to act as cannon fodder/human shields... and they are very mortal... they can die even away from their home dimension).

This is why I don't see the Heroic Hellion... Lesser or Greater... as the equivalent to a Mega Hero... regardless of the fact that they are a Demonic Immortal variant. The large number of relatively minor abilities (and yes, the equivalent to SNPS is still relatively minor when it doesn't provide everything the Major Power does) is offset by the vulnerabilities they get (which again are significantly less than the Mega-Hero equivalent... and even if they were the same, it would only justify the minor features better).

All that said... I can see how one can look at a Hellion and see all these abilities and possibilities and conclude that they have to be a Mega-Hero... but when you actually put it all together and roll a bunch up at both levels and then compare them to other randomly generate megas (both in the Immortal category and in general... not to mention established examples of such characters elsewhere), they tend to fall significantly short of what other Megas are capable of.

[eliakon]

All that said... I can see how one can look at a Hellion and see all these abilities and possibilities and conclude that they have to be a Mega-Hero... but when you actually put it all together and roll a bunch up at both levels and then compare them to other randomly generate megas (both in the Immortal category and in general... not to mention established examples of such characters elsewhere), they tend to fall significantly short of what other Megas are capable of.

Just because something can be generated that is weaker than the top tier of its class does not mean that it is not in that class.

Yes it is possible to make a HH that is 'weak'. So what? It is possible to make any character that is 'weak' if you roll/pick weak powers.

The text says that these are Mega-Heroes, which sort of means that they are Mega-Heroes. They may not be as powerful as some other mega-heroes but that doesn't mean anything. It really doesn't. Is a mutant mega-hero "not really a mega-hero" if he only gets one major power and two minors and Rolls Static Control, Immunity to Possession, and Immunity to Horror Factor? Does that mean that somehow they get to say "Well, I'm to weak to be a real Mega-Hero so I'm just going to say I'm just a mutant. I'm keeping all the Mega Hero powers though, because those aren't really all that impressive."

[Pepsi Jedi]

Second printing forward of Powers Unlimited 2, lists all Immortals as Mega Heroes.

Heroic Hellion is a Demonic Immortal Variant.

Therefore via the books, they're mega heroes. Your proof is there in black and white. It tells you what it is.

My Opinion..... which you can take or leave. Is that you're vastly underselling the class and trying to hand wave a huge amount of stuff as "Relatively minor'

As a personal aside I find a few of your 'points' to be.... a bit off.
They -do- come with natural supernatural strength, a 'Free' Major Superpower.
They come with supernatural PE (Though good luck finding what that actually does)
They use the Mega hero EXP table
Magically understands and speaks all languages
heals three times faster than Humans
can instantly bio regenerate up to 80Sdc or hit points.
Lives 1000+ years (( 100 per pe point, PE starts at 10-22, so 1000-2200 years)
Humanoid metamorphosis.

Then you roll, three more abilities. From Breath with out air, to body weapons,(minor power), to Claws (Minor power), Darkness control (Major power), EE Energy or lightning, both Minor powers, Super speed minor power, winged or wingless flight, both minors, Impervious to cold, fire or drugs, all minor powers, Invisability, a major power.

So... yeah off the top you get the above list and three minor or major super powers. (Don't forget hte major power of supernatural strength already in there)

And that's for the LESSOR.

Then you get demonic appearances that can add more weapons and armor to the character 3d6 damage and enhanced attibutes, wings etc...

You're given vulnerabilities just like a mega hero and infact can pick from the other mega hero ones.

Then you get an addition set of bonuses (For no apparent reason)

And that's for the minor version. It takes a jump up if you chose the major.

I'm not sure how you're seeing this as a ho-hum class with no indication it's a mega... it's got.. every indication it is. Your notion of the abilitys being 'realitivly minor in scope' seems far out of line from the class I read that stacks abilities over and over including rolls on charts to give the possibility of a minimum of 3 minor powers and possible majors, in addition to the major one of supernatural strength, and --all-- the other bonuses.

Maybe I am underestimating the usefulness of many of these abilities, but let's analyze your conclusions first.

1) Supernatural Strength: First, this is NOT a "free" Major power. Neither Hellions nor Megas get the actual Major Power of Supernatural Strength that adds 30 to their PS attribute. These characters merely get the lifting and damage equivalent to Supernatural PS of their current score... even if that is a mere PS of 3 (unlikely, but possible). So while I will give you the acknowledgement that this is the same as what Megas receive... it isn't the "free" major power you claim it is.

You still get Supernatural Strength. Which is listed under majors. Even if you don't get a 30 point boost, you get the strength level. Trying to act like you'll have a supernatural strength of three some how invalidating it is just an attempt to do that. Invlaidate it. It's listed under the major powers because it's a big deal. Same as this category is listed under Mega hero due to all the pile of crap they get.

2) Supernatural Endurance: The only benefit this appears to give is that in an MDC setting, these beings become MDC tough. However... since this is Heroes Unlimited (which is not an MDC setting) this isn't useful. Beyond this, there is nothing that really differentiates Supernatural Endurance from normal. So, without more to go on... this really does nothing (unless you plan on going to an MDC setting).

Oh it does something, it's just really hard to figure out and find what because in their questionable wisdom, Palladium's not ever actually told us what it does, straight up. There's entire threads on this you can look into if you wish. (Wich was part of my point, when I said good luck finding it.) Clearly it's meant to do SOMETHING as it's there, other wise why stipulate it? We know that supernatural strength is a major power. So it's logical to conclude this is as well.

3) Mega Hero Experience Table: Experience tables do not decide who is a Mega Hero and who isn't. Empowered characters use the Experiment Experience table... but are not experiments. Eugenic characters use the Bionics Experience table, but are anything but bionic. Gestalts use the Magic Experience table but may not be magical in origin. Your logic that a character using the Mega Hero Experience table is a Mega Hero is flawed... and thus can not be used as proof that Hellions should be seen as Megas.

Does anyone other than Mega Heroes use the Mega hero experience table?

4) Magically Understands all Languages: This is more or less the magical equivalent to a language translator... technology that isn't beyond the capacity of Hardware characters to build (doesn't Fabricators Inc. offer something to this effect) or even alien characters. Overall though this isn't that impressive a power... there is often little need for most HU characters to travel beyond the city/country they call home to another country or even world where knowing additional languages becomes necessary (and even in the latter case... many worlds seem to either have an English-like language or the above mentioned translators on hand). Simply put... the chances of this power being used or useful in any way are generally slim.

If your char never leaves town and always maintains one stable location, and never interacts with anyone from another country or speaks another language, or anyone from other planes of existance or planets... then. I guess if you only deal with those exact small number or sorts of people, then you wouldn't get any use out of it.

I suppose some games are like that. Sound pretty limited, locked down, restrictive and boring, but I'm sure some games are.

Most of my hero games are diverse. Many different people from around the world, and indeed universe(I often play aliens) and even other dimensions. Where in speakin ____ALL LANGUAGES____ is the equivilent of millions of skills all wrapped up in one and of immense utility. Have you never had someone talk about you in another language right in front of you?
Never run into someone from another country in your town and wished for better communication?

if your game just has everyone in the universe speak english, -your- game is broken. Not the ability above. That's a hand wave by your GM and they're lazy. While I"m not saying ALWAYS throw language barriers or the like in a game, there's a difference between "One universal language use by ___EVERY__ NPC you meet, and having them all use different languages. Reality is often in the middle.

5) Heals faster than Humans: Considering how slow natural healing actually is... this isn't all that impressive

Sure it is. it's three times faster. Considering how slow natural healing is, being able to do it three times faster is damn impressive.

... as even the weakest Healing power is still better than this (though there is that one mention of healing at 2d6 HP/SDC per hour which is significantly better than 3 times as fast as humans; humans don't heal at 1d4 HP/SDC per hour). That said... it is still within the range of accelerated Healing that Megas tend to receive so I will concede this point.

6) Bio-Regeneration: True, this also plays into the above healing ability, but the Hellion's ability is still not that impressive.

It really is. Their instant bio-regeneration heals more SDC/Hit points than many other classes start with. It's all the more impressive when you look at how slow people have to heal that don't have it.

The average lesser Hellion will have a PE of 16 (baring increase through physical skills)... which makes the average HP/SDC of 107/48 at first level (average of 24 PE for greater Hellions for 258/144 HP/SDC ratio at first level). Both get the same level of Bio-Regeneration, so technically the more powerful Hellion has a weaker Bio-Regeneration ability when comparing how much it heals them. Yes, the maximum level of healing is 80 pts... but the average is closer to between 50 and 60 HP or SDC once every 24 hours... that is an average of about 1/3rd of what a Lesser Hellion has... and 1/8th of the greater Hellion (1/2 of a Lesser's total at best and 1/5th of a Greater's at maximum healing). Again... this Bio-Regeneration can only be done once in a 24 hour period (which means that they have to wait 24 hours after they do it before they do so again; I have seen players try to argue that they can use it once 1 minute before midnight on one day and then again 2 minutes later since it is technically a different day; just want to make us clear on what once per 24 hours is and isn't). Again... not that impressive when one takes into account the amount of HP/SDC that these characters can have (which isn't that different from what normal heroes can attain) and we haven't included any special abilities or physical skills that increase this (and yes, physical skills still increase attributes and SDC of these characters).

50-80 SDC or hit points is damn impressive if that's more than another character may have total. Even if it's a third of all their SDC, it's an instant heal that can -easily- be the difference between life and death, in a huge way. A way that other characters with out the power don't have.

7) Long lifespan: I am willing to concede that this is somewhat similar to the mega-power of Longevity (Hellions don't receive the Immortality Mega-Power that most Immortals have; not sure all Immortals now get this power as of 2nd printing).

8) Humanoid Metamorphosis: Remember, Hellions can change into a single humanoid form, but can not mimic a specific person (though some of the Deevil and Demonic races that have such a power naturally might retain it should they become a Hellion). This is a unique appearance that is the same every time it is used... not unlike the mortal form of a Mystically Bestowed character when not powered up. If Bestowed characters are not automatically Megas for having a effectively equivalent ability, then we can't use this as proof that Hellions should be.

It's another signifigant ability in the long long list of abilities that they have. They can hide in plain sight, and look human (or the equivilent) And move among humans with out drawing attention. It's an instant disguise. Fighting a Hellion he gets hurt. Flys around a corner, pops off his bio regeneration, and changes into a teenage looking human girl. Heroes fly around the corner looking for a 12 foot tall creature covered in spikes, red skin, horns, fangs, claws and wings... the teen girl screams and points, the heroes don't stop and interrogate the teen girl. They fly off the way she pointed after their foe and the demon slips away.

It's a pretty big deal. You can ignore it, but the uses of this power are MANY.

9) Additional Abilities: Now, I will grant you that some of the abilities on the additional abilities table are equal to minor and major powers,

They straight up say to use the minor and major powers.... lol I mean nice that you grant it, but the book directly says it.

the Hellion still only gets 3 choices... which is more or less equivalent to what normal power categories offer. Even the psionic and magic options, while impressive, are still limited for the Hellion doesn't get any additional powers as they grow in experience... what they choose at level 1 is all they will ever get. At best, these characters will get the equivalent of 2 Major Powers (Darkness Control and Invisibility) and a Minor power... but there is only a 10% chance of getting one of those abilities (and a smaller chance of getting both). There is also a chance to get a one additional Major or minor power equivalent through additional demonic features, but the chances are fairly small (unless one is specifically selecting such features which will automatically skew the actual chances of attaining such features randomly... there is a reason that it is suggested that such rolls be random). Again, we can't count the Supernatural Strength as being a Major power here as it isn't the actual Major Power.

It's major even with out the additional boost.

.. merely the equivalent lifting and damage capacity. The Greater Hellion is even more limited as they automatically loose 1 selection of powers for an automatic Magic spellcasting ability... so they can only gain the two specific Major powers mention above... and possibly an extra with Demonic features... but again with random rolls that may not be likely (and while they get a greater selection of spells, this too is all they get; and let's not forget that while their PPE base increases, their rate of recovery does not... but that is a problem with spell magic in general and something for a different discussion).

So your arguement is, that in addition to the other list of things, that literally go on for multiple pages, they can "ONLY Get two MORE majors and a minor? That's going to be a pretty hard sell. The possibility is still there along with all the other stuff.

Some heroes roll crappy on their tables no matter what their category is. Some might only have two minor powers period. Some less.

10) Vulnerabilities: Yes, Hellions have Vulnerabilities of their own, due to having been a demonic creature of some sort. However these vulnerabilities are not in the same league as the Mega Hero (though that table can be used). This in itself is also not an indicator that such a character is a Mega... a number of powers provide innate vulnerabilities (Intangibility provides a weakness to airborne toxins... or rather they pass directly into a person in such a state; APS Fire is vulnerable to water, cold and such... at least to a degree; some aliens from specific environments are likewise vulnerable to environments that are opposite of what they are used to. In most cases, even substances that can harm a demonic character when made into a weapon merely ignore any Natural Armor rating and do double damage... but not directly to HP unless ingested. All in all, the vulnerabilities provided in the Hellion section are relatively minor compared to the Mega-Vulnerabilities... and goes a long way to justifying the handful of minor abilities mentioned above (checks and balances to preserve game balance).

That's just simply not true. They're Vulnerabilities, that are found for hellions, but also other classes don't have built in forced vulnerabilities like mega's do. More over, as even you've pointed out, these are optional ones in addition to the mega ones from the previous table.

11) Greater Hellions: Other than higher initial stats and a greater amount of HP/SDC, the Greater Hellion isn't that much more powerful than the Lesser Hellion... and still doesn't come close to the overall power level of a Mega. Let us also remember that Hellions DO NOT see their power ranges increase by 50% nor do they get the +50% to SDC that Megas get.

They ARE mega's, that's already been proven. Immortals are Mega's via the book.

And this is just comparing the randomly rolled Hellion that one can generate... specific Lesser and Greater Demons and Deevils may be even more limited in abilities (since any magic or Psionics they possess are already determined, they don't get to roll for additional powers, appearance or vulnerabilities, these are already determined with the specific race of Lesser/Greater Demon/Deevil).

If an average hero can take on a Lesser Demon one on one with little problem

No.. that's not at all true. But I get what you're 'trying' to do and will address it at the end.

(let alone a group of such heroes doing the same), as mentioned in the Superhuman vs. Supernatural commentary on pg 76 of Armageddon Unlimited... I really don't see how a Heroic Hellion (which is arguably the equivalent) can be considered a Mega Hero able to take on a small group of normal Heroes... especially since a lot of the factors that would make even a Lesser Demon a threat to a group of heroes doesn't apply to Hellions (Hellions don't run in packs as there are way too few of them for this to happen on any kind of regular basis... they aren't lead by a Greater Hellion... they don't serve powerful entities like Demon Lords or Alien Intelligences... they are not likely to have mortal worshipers to act as cannon fodder/human shields... and they are very mortal... they can die even away from their home dimension).

This is why I don't see the Heroic Hellion... Lesser or Greater... as the equivalent to a Mega Hero... regardless of the fact that they are a Demonic Immortal variant. The large number of relatively minor abilities (and yes, the equivalent to SNPS is still relatively minor when it doesn't provide everything the Major Power does) is offset by the vulnerabilities they get (which again are significantly less than the Mega-Hero equivalent... and even if they were the same, it would only justify the minor features better).

All that said... I can see how one can look at a Hellion and see all these abilities and possibilities and conclude that they have to be a Mega-Hero... but when you actually put it all together and roll a bunch up at both levels and then compare them to other randomly generate megas (both in the Immortal category and in general... not to mention established examples of such characters elsewhere), they tend to fall significantly short of what other Megas are capable of.

They really don't. What you're doing is going "Well if I roll absolute CRAP on everysingle thing for this character, and compair him to these other char's that I've rolled the absolute max on every single thing, they don't look all that different, except for these 5 different things that stack and stack and stack and stack.

Technically you could roll a 'Mega mutant" with "Bookworm" "blur" "Glow bug" and "instant wardrobe', with the 'mega power' "longevity" So.... the extra range and what not isn't going to be amazing. The char will not stand up against hardly anyone.

-that- is what you're trying to do with the Heroic Hellions. You're trying to act like they suck, because you're trying to make them take the absolute suckiest of abilities and then act like everyone else, who start with a fifth of their bonuses and powers and what have you are all going to roll awesome to stack up and kick their butts.

It's going to be pretty hard to say that mega Mutant above, with bookworm, blur, glow bug and instant wardrobe is going to win a fight with a Hellion.

you're also down playing a rather extensive list of things like they don't matter and would never come up, but the only way they don't matter and never come up is if the GM makes them not matter and never come up.

If you don't like the class, that's fine. As per the book, (Hard rules which you asked for) It's a Mega.

As the laundry list of stuff as long as your arm, it's also a mega. Even if you don't think it's that powerful. Chances are it's going to come out on top in most stat compairisons. Even with 'bad' rolls you have alot of stuff stacking and stacking and stacking.