Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

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Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

Are there any negatives anyone can think of to removing the bonus two attacks that every character gets at level 1 from all characters (PC and NPC)? I'm having trouble thinking of any so I wanted to see if anyone else could see something I'm missing. This is in anticipation/planning for a new game I'll be starting before the end of the year.

Pro's that I've thought of:
  • Melee rounds will go faster.
  • Easier to integrate N&SS/MC Forms if I decide to bring them in (still not sure about that).

The only Con I've thought of so far:
  • Hardware Characters may not have enough Attacks to select a second area of expertise.

Any thoughts on the matter are appreciated. Thanks!
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Removing them results in more rolls for inits. Which inturn, slows down combat. It also means that people will be changing up action order 'more' which will result in more confusion.

Over all it's just going to make it longer to get through a fight (Twice as many inits rolls if nothing else) and result in a touch more confusion as people have to switch inits order more.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

There are certain possible enemies that are affected by the presence or absence of TAFL.
Animals, for example, or golems and certain other created/summoned beings.
Also, relative mage casting time can be altered depending on which casting rules you use.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Razorwing »

This will seriously affect the world in which the characters live.

As it stands with these extra attacks, it is possible to have people who go through life without any kind of combat skills... not even HTH: Basic. This is everything from small children, to elderly individuals to even the small time punks in a gang that act more like mooks to be knocked down than to be any real threat to a heroic PC. The only people that are really likely to know any kind of combat skills are those who need to professionally (and in many cases... that doesn't include Heroes).

Unless a player's character was intentionally created to fight crime or to serve in another combat role... most were just ordinary people who through various forces were in the right place at the right time to receive whatever powers they have. Few power categories have characters training their lives (or being built) for combat roles... and some that do have a character training for much of their lives (such as mystic study) don't actually involve combat as such. As such... most ordinary people don't often start off with combat skills... not even HTH: Basic (which given the number of self defense classes available today is likely the most common HTH skill). That said... PCs tend to be an exception to this general rule as most players I've gamed with take at least HTH: Basic as a secondary skill.

Now... if you take away those basic attacks/actions everyone has naturally... then in order for anyone to do anything in combat... everyone will need to know a HTH skill. The little kid you save and tell to run away... he needs it to be able to do so... as does the elderly individual... and every two-bit punk gang member... all with at least the same combat training one would expect for a beat cop or a grunt soldier... just to do simple things like run for cover. Unlike other Palladium games that has a HTH: None type skill that provides actions per melee (not attacks, but actions), HU by default (main core book) doesn't have this... and even the games that do it is generally an "optional" rule for GMs to use.

So... you go from a game where PCs are exceptional individuals even without their abilities for knowing how to fight... to a world where in order for anyone to do anything... everyone has to know how to fight.

And yes, for the record I have played a character that didn't take any HTH skills at 1st level... as they had never needed to learn such before receiving powers (he never intended to be a hero... just an ordinary person). It wasn't until later... around 3rd level when he realized that if he was going to keep doing this (being a hero) he was going to need to learn to fight... so enrolled in a self-defense course... to learn HTH: Basic as one of the two Secondary skills he receives at 3rd level. Needless to say... those first few levels without HTH were interesting... the no auto-parry and such... just raw talent and sometimes foolish bravery. He got in over his head a number of times... especially when taking on enemies that knew how to fight... but it was an interesting experience with a lot of fun role-play development of the character.

Just remember, doing this will change the nature of the game... including what bystanders are able to do. If you are doing this just to speed up combat... you may find it does the opposite as now characters will have fewer attacks per melee with which to do damage... thus requiring more melee rounds to take down an enemy. At lower levels, you are more or less cutting the number of attacks by 40-50%... which will likely double the number of melee rounds it takes to defeat an enemy. Even at higher levels, the number of attacks will not increase much... merely to where they were at before... thus instead of saving time... you are doing the opposite. And that is without adding additional attacks that powers may provide. I would strongly suggest testing it out before committing to such a house rule... just to see if your expectations and the reality are in line.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Razorwing wrote:This will seriously affect the world in which the characters live.

As it stands with these extra attacks, it is possible to have people who go through life without any kind of combat skills... not even HTH: Basic. This is everything from small children, to elderly individuals to even the small time punks in a gang that act more like mooks to be knocked down than to be any real threat to a heroic PC. The only people that are really likely to know any kind of combat skills are those who need to professionally (and in many cases... that doesn't include Heroes).

Unless a player's character was intentionally created to fight crime or to serve in another combat role... most were just ordinary people who through various forces were in the right place at the right time to receive whatever powers they have. Few power categories have characters training their lives (or being built) for combat roles... and some that do have a character training for much of their lives (such as mystic study) don't actually involve combat as such. As such... most ordinary people don't often start off with combat skills... not even HTH: Basic (which given the number of self defense classes available today is likely the most common HTH skill). That said... PCs tend to be an exception to this general rule as most players I've gamed with take at least HTH: Basic as a secondary skill.

Now... if you take away those basic attacks/actions everyone has naturally... then in order for anyone to do anything in combat... everyone will need to know a HTH skill. The little kid you save and tell to run away... he needs it to be able to do so... as does the elderly individual... and every two-bit punk gang member... all with at least the same combat training one would expect for a beat cop or a grunt soldier... just to do simple things like run for cover. Unlike other Palladium games that has a HTH: None type skill that provides actions per melee (not attacks, but actions), HU by default (main core book) doesn't have this... and even the games that do it is generally an "optional" rule for GMs to use.

So... you go from a game where PCs are exceptional individuals even without their abilities for knowing how to fight... to a world where in order for anyone to do anything... everyone has to know how to fight.

And yes, for the record I have played a character that didn't take any HTH skills at 1st level... as they had never needed to learn such before receiving powers (he never intended to be a hero... just an ordinary person). It wasn't until later... around 3rd level when he realized that if he was going to keep doing this (being a hero) he was going to need to learn to fight... so enrolled in a self-defense course... to learn HTH: Basic as one of the two Secondary skills he receives at 3rd level. Needless to say... those first few levels without HTH were interesting... the no auto-parry and such... just raw talent and sometimes foolish bravery. He got in over his head a number of times... especially when taking on enemies that knew how to fight... but it was an interesting experience with a lot of fun role-play development of the character.

Just remember, doing this will change the nature of the game... including what bystanders are able to do. If you are doing this just to speed up combat... you may find it does the opposite as now characters will have fewer attacks per melee with which to do damage... thus requiring more melee rounds to take down an enemy. At lower levels, you are more or less cutting the number of attacks by 40-50%... which will likely double the number of melee rounds it takes to defeat an enemy. Even at higher levels, the number of attacks will not increase much... merely to where they were at before... thus instead of saving time... you are doing the opposite. And that is without adding additional attacks that powers may provide. I would strongly suggest testing it out before committing to such a house rule... just to see if your expectations and the reality are in line.


HU2 68 (bolding added for emphasis)
Characters without combat training only have one attack per melee round and have no automatic chance to parry or to make special moves.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Razorwing »

Killer Cyborg wrote:HU2 68 (bolding added for emphasis)
Characters without combat training only have one attack per melee round and have no automatic chance to parry or to make special moves.


Regardless... it will still slow combat considerably... with PCs still requiring more melee rounds to bring down enemies as they have fewer attacks to do so.

Also remember that Palladium is notorious for cut and pasting their rules... rather than rewriting them in new books... and I do believe this was kept from 1st Edition of their game engine... back before anyone got two automatic attacks per melee.

In the end, automatic attacks will be needed unless one wants everyone in the world to know HTH skills (even when it makes little sense). Getting rid of the automatic attack PCs and NPCs get before combat skills are applied is likely to backfire and make combat longer rather than quicker as the OP desires.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

I wasn't looking for combat to go quicker, I was looking for melee rounds to pass faster. I'll be using the information in the Heroes Unlimited G.M.'s guide for bystanders and non-combatants so losing the two attacks won't impact them.

Upon further reflection I may need to dial back how Heroes Unlimited has tried to "compensate" for having such high attacks per melee by reviewing all the powers and lowering many actions which take more than one melee round to complete, like Create Force Field, Create Force Constructs, Mental Stun, and Energy Expulsion Plasma. Certainly using the Rifts: Ultimate Edition rules for modern weapons will be tossed right out the window here and not even considered.

Ultimately, I haven't heard any significant rule issue reason to not do this. I will try it out when I run con games this summer in order to playtest it (which was a great suggestion). But from what I've heard so far I don't expect any problems.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Razorwing wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:HU2 68 (bolding added for emphasis)
Characters without combat training only have one attack per melee round and have no automatic chance to parry or to make special moves.


Regardless... it will still slow combat considerably... with PCs still requiring more melee rounds to bring down enemies as they have fewer attacks to do so.

Also remember that Palladium is notorious for cut and pasting their rules... rather than rewriting them in new books... and I do believe this was kept from 1st Edition of their game engine... back before anyone got two automatic attacks per melee.


When the TAFL kicked in with HU is, I believe, something still debated.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by flatline »

Glistam wrote:I wasn't looking for combat to go quicker, I was looking for melee rounds to pass faster. I'll be using the information in the Heroes Unlimited G.M.'s guide for bystanders and non-combatants so losing the two attacks won't impact them.

Upon further reflection I may need to dial back how Heroes Unlimited has tried to "compensate" for having such high attacks per melee by reviewing all the powers and lowering many actions which take more than one melee round to complete, like Create Force Field, Create Force Constructs, Mental Stun, and Energy Expulsion Plasma. Certainly using the Rifts: Ultimate Edition rules for modern weapons will be tossed right out the window here and not even considered.

Ultimately, I haven't heard any significant rule issue reason to not do this. I will try it out when I run con games this summer in order to playtest it (which was a great suggestion). But from what I've heard so far I don't expect any problems.


Heck, any of us who played the game before they added 2 attacks for living can attest to the fact that you can play the game just fine without it.

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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

flatline wrote:
Glistam wrote:I wasn't looking for combat to go quicker, I was looking for melee rounds to pass faster. I'll be using the information in the Heroes Unlimited G.M.'s guide for bystanders and non-combatants so losing the two attacks won't impact them.

Upon further reflection I may need to dial back how Heroes Unlimited has tried to "compensate" for having such high attacks per melee by reviewing all the powers and lowering many actions which take more than one melee round to complete, like Create Force Field, Create Force Constructs, Mental Stun, and Energy Expulsion Plasma. Certainly using the Rifts: Ultimate Edition rules for modern weapons will be tossed right out the window here and not even considered.

Ultimately, I haven't heard any significant rule issue reason to not do this. I will try it out when I run con games this summer in order to playtest it (which was a great suggestion). But from what I've heard so far I don't expect any problems.


Heck, any of us who played the game before they added 2 attacks for living can attest to the fact that you can play the game just fine without it.

--flatline


Agreed.
The addition of the rule threw things out of whack, but removing it doesn't affect much in a bad way.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Incriptus »

I guess that powers that increase the number of attacks per melee become move valuable.

HTH Basic Man has: 2 APM instead of 4 APM
4 Extra Attacks Man: 6 APM instead of 8 APM

So Extra Attacks Man has Triple the APM instead of Double.

Of course one could debate that is a "feature" not a "bug"
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Vincent Takeda »

I currently run with only one attack per round for all characters and additional training doesnt increase it. Instead whenever an additional attack per round is granted, I substitute a bonus to initiative. Smooth as silk for me.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

Vincent Takeda wrote:I currently run with only one attack per round for all characters and additional training doesnt increase it. Instead whenever an additional attack per round is granted, I substitute a bonus to initiative. Smooth as silk for me.

I've considered this as well - a set number of actions per melee that all characters share and never changes, and all bonus attacks per melee instead become initiative bonuses. I felt it would be too radical a change to make in the upcoming game but I'm glad to hear that the idea is workable!
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Hunterrose »

How does that work with tasks that require more than one action per meelee or with dodges or, say "attacks of opportunity"?
Do you shorten the the melee time? ie - melee = 7s?

EDIT: What about super fast or time altering characters?
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Vincent Takeda »

Tasks that require more than one action per meelee can be achieved during a meelee round. Tasks that require multiple attacks per meelee that could normally be used more than once per meelee of course can only be done once per meelee.

For the sake of simplicity we don't alter the meelee time. There was a bit of cognitive dissonance that something as simple as a single punch would take a full 15 seconds but functionally we've just looked past it for simplicity's sake. I believe becmi and 2e adnd ran into this kind of 'oddness of meta' by saying that while its possible a pair of fighters had swung plenty more times during a meelee round interval, the one that was being rolled for was 'the one of significance'... the one that had a measurable effect. I seem to remember the high end of attacks per round in old D&D systems being 3 or (annoyingly) 5/2.

Kinda all comes down to how ok you are with the game mechanics being abstractions. Sometimes the granularity of the mechanics gets in the way. Same trouble we run into with movement during combat (particularly in game systems that use battle mats)... one simply agrees with the notion that because its my attack, i'm able to move my full distance while everyone is paralyzed in their spot until their turn comes up... Realistically thats bonkers, if my movement speed and my opponents movement speed are identical, then when I see him running at me, given enough distance I should be able to run away and never be caught. But if I'm paralyzed until my action escape is not possible. I've got more houserules on character movement to solve time and movement based cognitive dissonance that feels better to me than 'locked in place' initiative based movement, but for the sake of simplicity the 'one round is 15 seconds' abstract remains unchanged.

I wont deny it fundamentally changes the power curve on some abilities, but with so many options on the table, thats hard to avoid. It can outright negate some abilities advantages, while increasing the advantages of other powers, particularly in the time control and other forced multiple iterative scenarios like multiple beings.

Only other person I know who's tried it is a youtube guy named RPG rider, though I think he might have been doing it with robotech. He and I sort of share the belief that the boosting of attacks per round was a poorly executed attempt at addressing the linear fighters vs quadratic wizards thing. How it ended up being in a game that openly eschews balance is kind of chicken and the egg... Did we declare balance is not the goal, or did we realize the change did not achieve the goal well and then declare balance became no longer the goal. I wasnt around for 1st edition pfrpg so i'm not sure if it had multiple attacks per round or not.

Conceptually the goal is of course to reduce anyone's action to a single thing, so if an ability allowed you to fire something off in a round by spending multiple attacks on it, you could still do it once, but if it was written in that way in order to allow you to fire it off multiple times in a round, thats what we're trying to avoid. Should be worth noting that in order to change attack per round bonuses into initiative bonuses we are indeed rolling initiative, then only the person who won the roll goes, then we roll initiative again. A player with a high initiative bonus will still find himself being able to pull off multiple attacks in a row, but in a ratio thats closer to 2 to 1 instead of say, 17 to 2 on the far end of the normal spectrum. Characters are still able to choose 'empty the clip' as their one attack per round, but then the next round will either be switching weapons or reloading which starts to feel like more of a big deal when you have to win an initiative roll to reload, and then waste that initiative roll on the reload.

It definitely makes for a lot more rolling, but not in a way that feels like its bogging things down. Fights definitely have more of a jackie chan scene style pacing to them.

Make no mistake. Its definitely the kind of thing you can only do if you're ready for a BIG change in how the game works and feels. It not even the only major paradigm shift we use... We also use 'nothing stacks' and a version of 'AR as DR'
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Hunterrose »

Thank you. :)
I'm not sure I or my players are ready for that. But I find it fascinating to hear about how people are making it (and other aspects of the game) work.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

having fewer attacks per melee means players would be less willing to use multi-attack options like power punch, power kick, bodyblock/throw, etc. for fear of not being able to have a dodge available later. this removes much of the dramatic nature and superhero style from close combat, as well as potentially dragging combat out over a longer period due to the lower overall damage of normal attacks. it also makes ranged combat options long long bursts and sprays less attractive for the same reason.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Incriptus »

And for my first Dirty Trick

Super Energy Expulsion: Super Blast uses up all but 1 of the characters attacks ... good thing we only have 2 attacks per melee instead of 4
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

Incriptus wrote:And for my first Dirty Trick

Super Energy Expulsion: Super Blast uses up all but 1 of the characters attacks ... good thing we only have 2 attacks per melee instead of 4

Excellent catch! That move will now use up all of the character's melee attacks instead of all but one. Any other ways this rules change can be "broke" with dirty tricks? Let me know!
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Nightmask »

Incriptus wrote:And for my first Dirty Trick

Super Energy Expulsion: Super Blast uses up all but 1 of the characters attacks ... good thing we only have 2 attacks per melee instead of 4


Not really a dirty trick though.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by eliakon »

Its going to make stun-locking people a LOT easier.
There are a large assortment of powers and abilities that cost the opponent an action (or two!).
Those sorts of things can quickly become stun-locks especially if you have two people willing to team up for it.
This removes much of the buffer people had against stun-locking. I am not sure how to solve that myself but it is likely going to come up.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Killer Cyborg wrote:There are certain possible enemies that are affected by the presence or absence of TAFL.
Animals, for example, or golems and certain other created/summoned beings.
Also, relative mage casting time can be altered depending on which casting rules you use.


Mage casting rules in combat are draconian if you actually -use- all the rules.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Glistam wrote:I wasn't looking for combat to go quicker, I was looking for melee rounds to pass faster.


.... "Why"?

If you don't care about combat going quicker... why do you need melee rounds to go faster? This sounds like..... an attempt to make a change for a very specific reason. I.E. trying to take advantage of a wording on a power or something.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Vincent Takeda wrote:I currently run with only one attack per round for all characters and additional training doesnt increase it. Instead whenever an additional attack per round is granted, I substitute a bonus to initiative. Smooth as silk for me.


So they get one swing, per 15 seconds... and then... pause for a drink. Have a seat. Stretch out.... then after 10 or 13 seconds, come back together to take another single swing?
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

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Incriptus wrote:And for my first Dirty Trick

Super Energy Expulsion: Super Blast uses up all but 1 of the characters attacks ... good thing we only have 2 attacks per melee instead of 4


See this is the sort of thing, I was wondering about, when I asked "Why". Is some mechanic like this, the source of the need to change.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

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Nightmask wrote:
Incriptus wrote:And for my first Dirty Trick

Super Energy Expulsion: Super Blast uses up all but 1 of the characters attacks ... good thing we only have 2 attacks per melee instead of 4


Not really a dirty trick though.


Changing the way combat works, to maximize the usage of one power, while penalizing everyone else, is a dirty trick. lol it's cheating.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Vincent Takeda »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Vincent Takeda wrote:I currently run with only one attack per round for all characters and additional training doesnt increase it. Instead whenever an additional attack per round is granted, I substitute a bonus to initiative. Smooth as silk for me.


So they get one swing, per 15 seconds... and then... pause for a drink. Have a seat. Stretch out.... then after 10 or 13 seconds, come back together to take another single swing?


Quite the opposite, as I addressed above. Combat is an abstract, so the idea that a person takes one monumental swing and then chews bubblegum isnt what happens. The presumption is that the combat exchange is still taking place, but that the trade of blows is inconsequential outside of the ones that are being rolled for... glancing blows or feint attacks...
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by jaymz »

To address bringing in n&ss...

The simpler thing would be to just add 2 apm the ma's

Also if you arent interested in speeding up combat then why care about the time taken for individual melees? The two are inherently linked together.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Glistam wrote:I wasn't looking for combat to go quicker, I was looking for melee rounds to pass faster.


.... "Why"?

If you don't care about combat going quicker... why do you need melee rounds to go faster? This sounds like..... an attempt to make a change for a very specific reason. I.E. trying to take advantage of a wording on a power or something.

You got me. I want to make people see combat options that take all your attacks as viable options again. This includes things like full-melee bursts and leap attacks.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Incriptus wrote:And for my first Dirty Trick

Super Energy Expulsion: Super Blast uses up all but 1 of the characters attacks ... good thing we only have 2 attacks per melee instead of 4


See this is the sort of thing, I was wondering about, when I asked "Why". Is some mechanic like this, the source of the need to change.

I already addressed this in a previous reply.

jaymz wrote:To address bringing in n&ss...

The simpler thing would be to just add 2 apm the ma's

Also if you arent interested in speeding up combat then why care about the time taken for individual melees? The two are inherently linked together.

I want effects whose durations are measured in melees to actually have a chance of running out. I want moves which use up all a character's actions to be usable options again. I want my combats to be measured by the passage of melees rather than being measured by how many attacks were used.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by jaymz »

As long as you are prepared for your combats to take even longer to get thru than they do now (probably the biggest issue most people have with the system) and considering so far you've essentially blown off anything anyone has said, do whatever you want. It's your game.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

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jaymz wrote:As long as you are prepared for your combats to take even longer to get thru than they do now (probably the biggest issue most people have with the system) and considering so far you've essentially blown off anything anyone has said, do whatever you want. It's your game.

No game is truly just one person's - every game is a collaborative effort between a G.M. and their players. A change like I'm proposing wouldn't just be made independent of any player's input, and if I'm going to seriously present it as an option then I need to be prepared to discuss how I'll handle the downsides to this change as well as discuss the benefits such a change will provide. I asked for input and I'm thankful for the replies I've gotten. There have been some good points made which have forced me to consider how this idea will impact the game both positively and negatively.

I am curious though as to what I've "blown off." People have presented me their issues, as I've asked, and I've discussed them in various replies. Just because they have failed to change my mind doesn't mean I'm blowing them off. But I will make clearer replies to specific posts and their issues in order to try and clear this up.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Removing them results in more rolls for inits. Which inturn, slows down combat. It also means that people will be changing up action order 'more' which will result in more confusion.

Over all it's just going to make it longer to get through a fight (Twice as many inits rolls if nothing else) and result in a touch more confusion as people have to switch inits order more.

A valid concern (repeated ad nauseum in this topic) that I can easily solve by removing the need to roll for initiative at the start of each melee. Just like with D&D, I could instead have players reroll for initiative whenever I feel the scope of the combat has changed drastically (like when a new challenger enters). I do still think it's possible that having everyone roll initiative every melee won't actually end up being as big an issue as it seems to be to others in this topic. After all, it is a fairly straightforward process. I'm not convinced this is really the "deal-breaking" issue to my idea that it's being presented as. But I certainly appreciate how strongly everyone seems to think that it is, and I appreciate the time it's taking everyone to repeatedly tell me so, so I have considered how I would address that if it became an issue.

Killer Cyborg wrote:There are certain possible enemies that are affected by the presence or absence of TAFL.
Animals, for example, or golems and certain other created/summoned beings.
Also, relative mage casting time can be altered depending on which casting rules you use.

I actually think animals work out okay, since they were all originally designed without the 2 attacks for living and only had them added in for the later editions. I do have the first edition Monsters and Animals I can reference for the original attacks per melee in case animals in the newer editions didn't just have 2 added to them, as I suspect.

As far as the spell casting time, I would normally use the Rifts Ultimate Edition casting times. But for a Mystic Study or other magic character with only two attacks, that basically means they will be casting spells at the old half-melee/full-melee speed. But as they level up and gain more attacks per melee they will improve their casting speed, and since others also have less attacks per melee I don't think it impacts them as badly as it seems. It's a good thing to really think about though if magic will be an important part of the game (i.e., if any players have it).

glitterboy2098 wrote:having fewer attacks per melee means players would be less willing to use multi-attack options like power punch, power kick, bodyblock/throw, etc. for fear of not being able to have a dodge available later. this removes much of the dramatic nature and superhero style from close combat, as well as potentially dragging combat out over a longer period due to the lower overall damage of normal attacks. it also makes ranged combat options long long bursts and sprays less attractive for the same reason.

I have never seen any players hold off on using attacks "for fear of not being able to have a dodge available later." This may be a valid concern to some gaming groups however, and I respect that. I do allow in my games for the first action of the next melee round (and only that action) to be "lost" when a character dodges if they have no melee actions left in the current round. Some Palladium games allow those future actions to keep being taken and possibly leading to a point where the character enters a melee round with no actions at all! That creates a strange situation for me to try and envision so I avoid it by limiting it in this manner.

In my vision as originally presented the attacks per melee are reduced by two (from what is written up in the book) across the board for everyone. Characters trying to hold onto attacks in case they need a dodge would only have two attacks, but their equally skilled opponents would also only have two attacks with which to press them, and the character could use their first attack in the next melee to dodge if they found themselves in a situation where that first action in this melee just really needed to be an action that uses two actions. This means those attacks should be used situationally and with careful judgement, which I think is how they should be used anyway.

eliakon wrote:Its going to make stun-locking people a LOT easier.
There are a large assortment of powers and abilities that cost the opponent an action (or two!).
Those sorts of things can quickly become stun-locks especially if you have two people willing to team up for it.
This removes much of the buffer people had against stun-locking. I am not sure how to solve that myself but it is likely going to come up.

The reduction of attacks per melee by two is a change across the board that applies to everyone in the game world, not just player characters. So while the defender has fewer actions, so too does the attacker. I don't see how that would make "stun-locking" any easier in this case. Multiple people versus one person is always a dangerous situation regardless of the number of attacks a character starts off with.

jaymz wrote:To address bringing in n&ss...

The simpler thing would be to just add 2 apm the ma's

Also if you arent interested in speeding up combat then why care about the time taken for individual melees? The two are inherently linked together.

I certainly agree that adding two attacks per melee to the Ninjas and Superspies martial arts is the "simpler" answer. I do know that the N&SS forms are not designed to do that, however. In the old conversion notes section of N&SS it specifically calls out not adding the two attacks for living to characters who know the N&SS forms when bringing them into Heroes Unlimited Revised. If I were to use N&SS martial arts forms I would use them across the board, replacing all the martial arts with them. I'm not sure I am ready to fully contemplate that change just yet, however, since I would need to work out how that chance impacts the Physical Training power category. But the bottom line is that I wouldn't bring in the Ninjas & Superspies martial arts forms if all the other characters in the game had the two attacks for living.

And as I said previously, I am not looking to speed up combat. I don't know what I said that gave people that impression but it's simply not true. I'm looking to speed up how fast melee rounds pass. If a character gets hit with a tranquilizer dart (or sleeping gas, or poison) I want there to be some real urgency that they may succumb to whatever it is before they can finish taking down the thugs they're facing. In the current rules as written I've never seen a situation where a character has ever had to worry about attacks like that, since they have so many attacks they just defeat their opponents long before the risk of succumbing becomes a concern. That's just another benefit I see from making this change.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Glistam wrote:
Vincent Takeda wrote:I currently run with only one attack per round for all characters and additional training doesnt increase it. Instead whenever an additional attack per round is granted, I substitute a bonus to initiative. Smooth as silk for me.

I've considered this as well - a set number of actions per melee that all characters share and never changes, and all bonus attacks per melee instead become initiative bonuses. I felt it would be too radical a change to make in the upcoming game but I'm glad to hear that the idea is workable!

That actually intrigues me, would not mind experimenting with it.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

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glitterboy2098 wrote:having fewer attacks per melee means players would be less willing to use multi-attack options like power punch, power kick, bodyblock/throw, etc. for fear of not being able to have a dodge available later. this removes much of the dramatic nature and superhero style from close combat, as well as potentially dragging combat out over a longer period due to the lower overall damage of normal attacks. it also makes ranged combat options long long bursts and sprays less attractive for the same reason.

I used to love using jump kicks- having less attacks per melee make that a much more viable option.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by eliakon »

Glistam wrote:
eliakon wrote:Its going to make stun-locking people a LOT easier.
There are a large assortment of powers and abilities that cost the opponent an action (or two!).
Those sorts of things can quickly become stun-locks especially if you have two people willing to team up for it.
This removes much of the buffer people had against stun-locking. I am not sure how to solve that myself but it is likely going to come up.

The reduction of attacks per melee by two is a change across the board that applies to everyone in the game world, not just player characters. So while the defender has fewer actions, so too does the attacker. I don't see how that would make "stun-locking" any easier in this case. Multiple people versus one person is always a dangerous situation regardless of the number of attacks a character starts off with.

For single actions that cost a single action there will be no difference.
But for actions that cost the target more than one action there will be a huge increase in effect.
This applies both for effects that have duration (lose one action per round for X rounds say) or flat out Lose X (where X >1) actions.

It can be dealt with of course, just something to be aware if is all.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

It seems..... probable at this point that the removal of the 2 attacks, is to take advantage of a wording for a power or move that's either 1) Planned to be used to effect it wasn't meant to be or 2) To prevent another power or move as written from having the desired effect.

Every time someone raises a concern you counter with "Well I can just change that too, and that. I can change that aspect as well" type thing. You're not talking about simply removing 2 attacks then. You're trying to redesign the entire combat system to maximize or marginalize something you WANT maximized or minimized.

Above you mentioned wanting people to 'use' combat options that take all their actions. That point, is that if it takes all their actions to perform, the trade off being that it's powerful but theyr'e then out of actions. In your system it would 'remove the penalty'.

I.E. if your "Full round burst" can be done all the time with no real down side, or power moves be done with no down side.

In that event... you are 'removing' 'normal' moves from the game. If someone can do one shot, or a "Full round burst" for the same 'cost', then you're going to just have people hozing stuff left right and center. You're removing any penalty or down side from the special moves and thus making them common.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It seems..... probable at this point that the removal of the 2 attacks, is to take advantage of a wording for a power or move that's either 1) Planned to be used to effect it wasn't meant to be or 2) To prevent another power or move as written from having the desired effect.

Sure, I've already noted what I intend to "take advantage of" with this change. It's not a secret and never has been. I want to make moves/actions which require a full melee round to perform viable combat options again, and I want to make effects which are measured over the span of just a few melees (such as the onset of the effects of tranquilizer darts) to become meaningful in a combat situation again. I want someone who uses a Roundhouse Kick or an Axe Kick to not have to wait several melee attacks until they can kick again. I want someone who makes a successful save vs. Carpet of Adhesion and now has 2D6 melees before they pull free to be a concern to the group. I want the 1D4+1 melee rounds it takes to cut free from a net to be something that won't completely remove a character from an entire combat. Those are the things I want from this change.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Every time someone raises a concern you counter with "Well I can just change that too, and that. I can change that aspect as well" type thing. You're not talking about simply removing 2 attacks then. You're trying to redesign the entire combat system to maximize or marginalize something you WANT maximized or minimized.

House rules are rarely as simple as just making just one change - everything that's changed has an impact that can affect other things. It's literally why I started this topic, so the things which this change will affect can be determined and I can then make a decision as to whether or not the amount of changes that have to be made are worth the effort to both do and to explain to others.

However, since this accusation keeps getting repeated despite what I say to the contrary, I am very interested to hear what specifically I am assumed to be exploiting. I would like to be able to consider if it (or they) are, indeed, egregious enough violations of the spirit of the game to warrant the complete retraction of my proposal.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Above you mentioned wanting people to 'use' combat options that take all their actions. That point, is that if it takes all their actions to perform, the trade off being that it's powerful but theyr'e then out of actions. In your system it would 'remove the penalty'.

I.E. if your "Full round burst" can be done all the time with no real down side, or power moves be done with no down side.

In that event... you are 'removing' 'normal' moves from the game. If someone can do one shot, or a "Full round burst" for the same 'cost', then you're going to just have people hozing stuff left right and center. You're removing any penalty or down side from the special moves and thus making them common.

I think you may be confused. The change I am looking to propose to my players is to reduce attacks/actions per melee across the board from 4-5 (or more) actions at first level down to 2-3 (or more) actions at first level, as it was in the earlier editions of the game. It was another poster entirely who presented their successful house rule of limiting attacks per melee to only one. I suspect you intended to complain to them about how full-round actions would no longer have a penalty to their use when compared to single-round actions. That's a concern I am neither prepared nor qualified to address as it doesn't apply to my change.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

Glistam wrote:The change I am looking to propose to my players is to reduce attacks/actions per melee across the board from 4-5 (or more) actions at first level down to 2-3 (or more) actions at first level, as it was in the earlier editions of the game.

I see problems with some Undead, Constructs/Golems and "Slow" moving creatures coming up with such a change. Some of the minor creatures would be elevated into much deadlier creatures, as their poor movement is represented by fewer attacks per melee, and that is where the Living part of the Two Attacks for Living comes in to play.



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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

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Cr'Imson wrote:
Glistam wrote:The change I am looking to propose to my players is to reduce attacks/actions per melee across the board from 4-5 (or more) actions at first level down to 2-3 (or more) actions at first level, as it was in the earlier editions of the game.

I see problems with some Undead, Constructs/Golems and "Slow" moving creatures coming up with such a change. Some of the minor creatures would be elevated into much deadlier creatures, as their poor movement is represented by fewer attacks per melee, and that is where the Living part of the Two Attacks for Living comes in to play.



Cr'Imson

This is a good point, thank you for bringing it up. I took a quick glance at the shadow beasts, mummies, zombies, and golems from the second edition and the earlier editions of Palladium's games. It seems to me as if those things that had three and four attacks in the earlier editions of the game retained those numbers (no change) when brought into the second edition, but those who had only two attacks per melee were increased to now have three. So just like with the animals the best way I think to handle them will be to revert their attacks per melee to match their earlier edition write-ups. They definitely didn't just have two attacks added to them when they were moved into the second edition books, and not all of them even saw an increase in attacks at all! I think in order to be certain though I'll need to check them against the original Palladium Fantasy book.

This definitely doesn't seem like a deal-breaker to me but it is yet another small complication that I'll need to be prepared to overcome. This is exactly the sort of sort of stuff I was looking for - potential complications or abuses with this idea. I'm glad stuff like this is coming up now rather than coming up in the middle of a game and stopping it dead.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Glistam wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:It seems..... probable at this point that the removal of the 2 attacks, is to take advantage of a wording for a power or move that's either 1) Planned to be used to effect it wasn't meant to be or 2) To prevent another power or move as written from having the desired effect.

Sure, I've already noted what I intend to "take advantage of" with this change. It's not a secret and never has been. I want to make moves/actions which require a full melee round to perform viable combat options again, and I want to make effects which are measured over the span of just a few melees (such as the onset of the effects of tranquilizer darts) to become meaningful in a combat situation again. I want someone who uses a Roundhouse Kick or an Axe Kick to not have to wait several melee attacks until they can kick again. I want someone who makes a successful save vs. Carpet of Adhesion and now has 2D6 melees before they pull free to be a concern to the group. I want the 1D4+1 melee rounds it takes to cut free from a net to be something that won't completely remove a character from an entire combat. Those are the things I want from this change.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Every time someone raises a concern you counter with "Well I can just change that too, and that. I can change that aspect as well" type thing. You're not talking about simply removing 2 attacks then. You're trying to redesign the entire combat system to maximize or marginalize something you WANT maximized or minimized.

House rules are rarely as simple as just making just one change - everything that's changed has an impact that can affect other things. It's literally why I started this topic, so the things which this change will affect can be determined and I can then make a decision as to whether or not the amount of changes that have to be made are worth the effort to both do and to explain to others.

However, since this accusation keeps getting repeated despite what I say to the contrary, I am very interested to hear what specifically I am assumed to be exploiting. I would like to be able to consider if it (or they) are, indeed, egregious enough violations of the spirit of the game to warrant the complete retraction of my proposal.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Above you mentioned wanting people to 'use' combat options that take all their actions. That point, is that if it takes all their actions to perform, the trade off being that it's powerful but theyr'e then out of actions. In your system it would 'remove the penalty'.

I.E. if your "Full round burst" can be done all the time with no real down side, or power moves be done with no down side.

In that event... you are 'removing' 'normal' moves from the game. If someone can do one shot, or a "Full round burst" for the same 'cost', then you're going to just have people hozing stuff left right and center. You're removing any penalty or down side from the special moves and thus making them common.

I think you may be confused. The change I am looking to propose to my players is to reduce attacks/actions per melee across the board from 4-5 (or more) actions at first level down to 2-3 (or more) actions at first level, as it was in the earlier editions of the game. It was another poster entirely who presented their successful house rule of limiting attacks per melee to only one. I suspect you intended to complain to them about how full-round actions would no longer have a penalty to their use when compared to single-round actions. That's a concern I am neither prepared nor qualified to address as it doesn't apply to my change.


I'm not confused. You're changing the game to cheat the rules as built to get what you want. That's fine, but don't wax mysterious about it.
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Vincent Takeda
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Vincent Takeda »

One person's cheat is another person's homebrew. The days of playing any printed game without customizing some bits isn't just over, it never was.
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Nightmask
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Nightmask »

Vincent Takeda wrote:One person's cheat is another person's homebrew. The days of playing any printed game without customizing some bits isn't just over, it never was.


Quite so, even games like Monopoly have house rules applied to them.
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not confused. You're changing the game to cheat the rules as built to get what you want. That's fine, but don't wax mysterious about it.


Now I'm confused - when did I "wax mysterious" about this? It's been an open conversation since the beginning.
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Glistam
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Re: Removing the "Two Attacks for Living" from HU2

Unread post by Glistam »

Glistam wrote:It's literally why I started this topic, so the things which this change will affect can be determined and I can then make a decision as to whether or not the amount of changes that have to be made are worth the effort to both do and to explain to others.

It turns out that all it took was one character with the three minor powers of "Resin," "Shadow Shaping," and "Anatomical Independence" for me to decide that the change I wanted to implement was no longer worth the effort. :lol:
Zerebus: "I like MDC. MDC is a hundred times better than SDC."

kiralon: "...the best way to kill an old one is to crash a moon into it."

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Temporal Wizard O.C.C. update 0.8 | Rifts random encounters
New Fire magic | New Temporal magic
Grim Gulf, the Nightlands version of Century Station

Let Chaos Magic flow in your campaigns.
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