Fight to the death?

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Achalon1
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Fight to the death?

Unread post by Achalon1 »

Hello All,

I was wondering how everybody deals with the idea that the palladium system generally favors characters fighting to the death? I'm talking about the mechanics of a fight. I'm well aware of the idea of retreating before running out of Hit Points and such, I'm talking more about the idea of a character getting knocked out or beaten into submission.

Presumably, most heroes don't want to beat a villain into a coma. Even the idea of beating on a character until they're at negative HP is difficult since the space between coma and death (generally only a number equal to the PE of the victim) isn't very much.

So how does everyone generally deal with capturing villains? These are people who often would be willing to fight to the death to avoid being caught and having to go to jail (or whatever), but heroes can't just going around killing the bad guys all the time.

I'm aware of the Nat 20 Knockout rule and the Hand to Hand options for Knockout, but that's not something you can always rely on.

Basically I'm looking for ways to logically come up with a solution so characters aren't always murdering everyone they fight when a natural high D20 roll isn't available/doesn't happen.

Thanks,
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Glistam »

People don't like getting hurt, and most people don't fight to the death. They stop once they get hurt enough. Most villains I run look to give up, surrender, stop fighting or run away once the threat of taking H.P. damage becomes real. Most low-level mooks and thugs give up after one or a few hits to their S.D.C. (once they lose half) and fall to the ground In melodramatic fashion. With the mooks and thugs, if something knocks them down they also tend to stay down.

A villain getting beaten isn't going to stick around to keep fighting. Once he realizes he's outmatched and not going to win he should be reacting accordingly.

Only true fanatics should be willing to die for a cause, and those guys should be rare.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Achalon1 »

Good answer, but is that always going to be arbitrary as to when the villain decides to surrender?

Also, if you're fighting a guy with 800+ SDC and you can't seem to pull that Nat 20 or whatever is required for a KO, should it just be a "Pour It On" type situation where they just beat the guy into submission...

Honestly, I think my problem is that I'm not exactly sure what my problem is... lol

I guess I'm wondering if there shouldn't be a chance of KO on taking large amounts of damage (similar to the knockdown rules or D&D 3.5's Massive Damage Rule), or what the general opinion is on when a bad guy should surrender...

As I'm writing this I'm wondering if I need to update my conceptual understanding of Hit Point and SDC damage...
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Glistam »

Achalon1 wrote:Good answer, but is that always going to be arbitrary as to when the villain decides to surrender?

Also, if you're fighting a guy with 800+ SDC and you can't seem to pull that Nat 20 or whatever is required for a KO, should it just be a "Pour It On" type situation where they just beat the guy into submission...

Honestly, I think my problem is that I'm not exactly sure what my problem is... lol

I guess I'm wondering if there shouldn't be a chance of KO on taking large amounts of damage (similar to the knockdown rules or D&D 3.5's Massive Damage Rule), or what the general opinion is on when a bad guy should surrender...


As far as KO's go, Automatic KO and KO From Behind are both moves learned through the various Hand to Hand skills at higher levels. But otherwise there is no way to KO an enemy easily, and this is by design in the system. An example Kevin has put into various books to help illustrate this is when a group of his players with Boxing tried to KO someone they had tied up. He made them keep rolling (to try and get that natural 20) and their rolls were only succeeding in beating the guy into a bloody mess. When they complained he stood by what the results of the dice had been and chided them for not rolling better. This is the Palladium System as designed.

Hit Point damage hurts, causes severe injuries, and takes longer to heal. In my opinion, that's when enemies stop fighting - when the fight brings them into H.P. damage or even into the danger of H.P. damage. It's also reasonable to have them surrender when their plan is stopped. What are they fighting for if the heroes have already destroyed their death ray? Surrender to escape later or fight long enough to escape now.

Using the example of the enemy with 800+ S.D.C., I would see such a villain feeling nigh invincible as he or she enters the fight, and act that way, too - at least at first. The heroes attacks will start off being no more bothersome than the buzzing of flies. But once they start whittling that S.D.C. down, the villain might start getting worried. I might break it down like this:
  • At full (800) S.D.C.: Perfectly confident. "You'll never best me, heroes. You only delay the inevitable with this pathetic struggle you call a fight"
  • Down to 600 S.D.C.: Starting to get bothered, may up their game to finally take them out. "This is starting to get annoying."
  • Down to 400 S.D.C.: Definitely annoyed. Time to either take them down hard while also beginning to plan their escape. "It's time to end this!"
  • Down to 200 S.D.C.: Shocked that it's gotten to this point. Possibly a final, last ditch attempt to win but more likely to take off in order to plot revenge. "Inconceivable!"
  • Down to 0 S.D.C.: Desperation. Self-preservation. Surrender of flight are the normal options here. Only a fanatic would keep going. "Did I underestimate you? Or did you get lucky? You win this round, heroes."

Achalon1 wrote:As I'm writing this I'm wondering if I need to update my conceptual understanding of Hit Point and SDC damage...


It can be tough to wrap around this idea, but H.P. and S.D.C. are just abstract constructs to help represent the results of attacks. The D&D books have always tried to spell this out, and I really liked how the D&DNext playtest materials specifically broke down the concept of H.P.:
D&DNext wrote:Your hit points represent a combination of several factors. They include your physical durability and overall health, your speed and agility to avoid harm, and your overall level of energy. They also account for luck, divine favor, and other mystic factors.

In short, hit points are an abstraction. While you are at or above half your maximum hit points, you show no signs of injury. At less than half your hit points, you have acquired a few cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points or fewer strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious."

Applying that to Palladium would basically apply it to S.D.C., while losing S.D.C. means that further strikes are causing injury and trauma that will eventually knock the character unconscious.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Achalon1 »

Great Answer! It really helped me understand and focus more on what's bothering me about all this.

I think my issue is that there's no penalty enforced on HP loss.

Maybe there should perhaps a cumulative -1 penalty to all actions per 10% of lost Hp, or maybe a mandatory check to remain conscious after so much HP is lost... I dunno... I think I'm going to play around with creating some house rules... :)

Thanks for the replies!
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

It's called a role playing game for a reason. It's not just about numbers. As a GM, I pretty much figure when the NPC gets low on SDC they will run away if possible or surrender when running is not an option. Once you get down to Hit Points, you're talking about the possibility of broken bones and disabling damage, at which point it is going to become difficult for the villain to continue fighting.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Glistam »

Achalon1 wrote:I think my issue is that there's no penalty enforced on HP loss.

Maybe there should perhaps a cumulative -1 penalty to all actions per 10% of lost Hp, or maybe a mandatory check to remain conscious after so much HP is lost... I dunno... I think I'm going to play around with creating some house rules... :)

Thanks for the replies!

There are optional tables for H.P. damage. Every 10% you lose, you roll on the table for cumulative penalties. And there's a permanent side-effect table from entering a coma and surviving. Both tables are in the section on H.P. and S.D.C. and if being used, help to illustrate why no-one would ever want to take H.P. damage.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Glistam has this pretty well covered, IMO.
Once somebody starts taking any HP loss, or sees the threat of it, they might well surrender.

For that matter, some might surrender the moment they feel significantly outmatched in the first place. When Captain Facemangler shows up, if you're a normal unpowered goon, you might well just surrender, the same way that you'd surrender if you're surrounded by cops with guns pointed at you.
The hero/vigilante's reputation might affect things as well.

You might house rule that any critical strike or any successful natural 20 results in a morale check, rolling under the character's ME on a d20, for example.
A hero with a high MA (or PB?) could also use their ability to intimidate or impress a villain into submission.
But generally, that kind of stuff seems left for people to role-play out.

If you want HP to play a role, you could have a morale check every round after any HP loss is sustained (or after SDC is deplete), with success determined by attempting to roll under remaining HP on a d20.
Alternately, you could require a Save vs Pain every round in which a character is below full HP (or at zero SDC).
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Incriptus »

One of the thoughts I always keep in mind with palladium games is that the rules are often written for the perspective of the player character instead of a set of rules for all life forms at all times. We don't have rules for being KO'ed or Weakened from injuries because a we don't want those rules being inflicted upon our player characters.

That said, the line between "Beating someone to death" and "Beating them Unconscious" and "Beating them into a coma" is a really thin line in real life. . . and that's no fun, that's why movies and comics make it easier to KO a villain. If we wanted hard rules on it, I would indeed advocate some kind of save vs Unconsiousness when a character goes into HP damage.

However I'd also toy with the idea of a "soft rule" that says you get to choose to fall unconscious. A character who continues to act while in HP damage may have to roll on the permanent damage tables, however if you choose to fall unconscious you don't. This way our heroes get to fight to their dying breath against a murderous villain, but can save themselves the risk when they're in one of those Hero vs Hero fights that comics like so much.

Finally while I'm rambling on the subject perhaps I'd combine the two ideas. Everyone needs to save vs unconsciousness whenever they take damage after their SDC has been depleted. If you choose to fail your first save you don't risk permanent damage and the duration is 1/2 what it would otherwise be. Under these rules most villains and thugs would willingly fall unconscious when fighting a hero, whoever at the same time some would push themselves leaving our heroes in the same unconfortable situation "core" HU creates.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Hunterrose »

There's some great suggestions in this thread. I may have to implement them in my campaign.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Glistam »

Incriptus wrote:However I'd also toy with the idea of a "soft rule" that says you get to choose to fall unconscious. A character who continues to act while in HP damage may have to roll on the permanent damage tables, however if you choose to fall unconscious you don't. This way our heroes get to fight to their dying breath against a murderous villain, but can save themselves the risk when they're in one of those Hero vs Hero fights that comics like so much.

I really like this idea! :ok:
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Axelmania »

What I never liked about the Siembieda example was it.didn't seem like he suggested to the player to roll a pull punch.

You can do 0 damage and still get a knockout.if you make that roll.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Shadowknight »

My take is there's a difference between NPC of no account that's color punk, standard drug dealers, stooge of month and major NPC & Players. For the most part unless brainwashed, fanatically devoted or controlled in some way the standard thug should run away or go down before coming close to their hit point limit unless the players are murdering yahoos. This is where reputation, M.A, Awe Factor and Role playing can shine even in combat. My house rule players and major NPC can knock out low lvl henchmen, security guards, cops and innocent bystanders with an 17 or higher once you get to their hit points. SWAT, Special Forces, Elite Mobster, Assassin and most PC Classes require an 18 or higher once you get to their h.p. This tends to reflect SH movies & comics where NPC are knocked out considerably faster than standard HU rules. Having said that Major NPC are immune to these rules but as a GM I rarely ROLEPLAY major NPC as in a hurry to get to Valhalla or suicidal nutcases. 25% will surrender or run away by the time they get to 40% of their H.P and at least 75% will do so by the time they're down to 25% or less of their H.P. Their are some exception to this rule characters with Invulnerability, Immortality, Multiple lives, Regenerative powers and most Mega Villains won't surrender or run away due to their belief they can't die. The other exception are Robotic characters who tend to have less fear of death than living characters and SV surrounded by henchmen that outnumber the heroes at least 3 to 1. These rule IMO goes to spirit of the SH comics in which low lvl henchmen gets knocked out relatively easily but the higher you go up the totem pole the harder it becomes for major NPC to back down, run away or get knocked out.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Axelmania wrote:What I never liked about the Siembieda example was it.didn't seem like he suggested to the player to roll a pull punch.

You can do 0 damage and still get a knockout.if you make that roll.


You can't really knock some out if you are pulling your punch... now can you. By pulling your punch to do less damage, there is actually less force with which to deliver a knock out blow. You can't knock someone out if you do zero damage to them... and (in my opinion) if you pull your punch, you will never deliver enough force (regardless of the damage you do allow) to knock a person out.

Now... for the most part this discussion has been about villains surrendering or fleeing when they are outmatched... but what of the opposite result... when it is the heroes on the loosing end of a fight? When do heroes (players) choose to regroup or retreat from an opponent that is clearly superior to them? Does a villain always try to kill a hero that can no longer (or is unwilling) to fight?

Sometimes.

Most often though, most villains will rather get away with their plan (the money from a bank or whatever they just stole or such) than to bother with killing a hero that is obviously no match for them... especially if the hero did manage to do some damage or reinforcements arrive (even ordinary cops that might be able to finish bringing down a weakened villain might give a villain pause as to whether it is worth the effort to eliminate the hero now). Simply put, if a villain isn't willing to fight to the death, chances are he isn't likely to stick around to finish off a weakened hero either... especially if he isn't in a secure area.

Now, if the hero(s) confronted the villain(s) in their lair... things may be different, but even here a villain may not kill a hero outright. Capturing and humiliating a hero is a common trope in comics... and it gives many villains (who tend to be a little megalomaniacal) an audience to perform in front of as they complete their master plan... forcing the (presumably) helpless hero to watch as they launch the missile that will destroy the city or something to that effect. Even villains that would fight to the death in other circumstances... such as fanatical cultists... may choose to capture helpless heroes... possibly to be killed in a specific manner (such as a blood sacrifice for a dark cult).

To be honest... it is often only a matter of time (or some very bad luck with rolls) before heroes are on the loosing end of a fight. Deciding how a villain is likely to react should he get the upper hand in a fight is something all Game Masters should know before the fight begins... even if the chances are slim. It is even possible that a hero may intentionally take a fall if there is a chance that an escaping mook will lead him back to a higher level boss.

One of the best episodes of Batman: The Animated Series, The Man Who Killed Batman had just such a plot... where a bumbling Sid "the Squid" apparently kills the Batman by happenstance has Sid go through all sorts of misadventures... including a bar fight, a wake held by the Joker and eventually an audience with Rupert Thorn... all the while being secretly followed by Batman to find out who orchestrated the original crime. Beyond this, there have been numerous times when the Batman had been overpowered or rendered unconscious and captured... giving him time to escape and thwart the plans of the villain.

So... even when the heroes are on the loosing end of a fight... it is possible for a GM to use that to his advantage, without killing the players. If the villains just leave them, then the hero has to live with the fact that he was beaten... which may cause a player to change his play style... but it can also lead to problems if the defeat was witnessed (how will the public react if a would-be hero is defeated... especially by ordinary humans and not a powerful super villain?). If the players are captured, it is likely that they will have an opportunity to learn the full scale of a villain's plan (the megalomaniacal monologue is a common trope of comics)... or at least escape before they are finished off.

Just as most villains won't likely fight to the death, heroes shouldn't always be killed outright when they are on the loosing end of a fight.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Hunterrose »

Very cool post.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Think about most villains in super hero comics, almost none of the villains stick around
when things go south to them. Even a diabolic alignment guy wants to save his own
skin.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

To add to my previous post...

What do your players do when they are clearly outmatched by their opponents? Did they jump in before making sure how many thugs there were? How long do they fight before the realize they really don't have much hope of winning? Would the honestly rather let their characters die than be captured... even if there is a chance they could be rescued or escape later... especially if they can learn the full scope of what they blundered into in the process?

This part depends on what the GM does... if the GM doesn't take prisoners (has the bad guys kill any hero that tries to stop their villains), then the chances of a player surrendering is likely never going to happen... and they will have reason to believe that their character will die if they do. In such case, chances are that the best option for players in such a situation will be to try to flee... even if the villains are likely to follow. Now if the GM does provide an opportunity for heroes to surrender (perhaps the villain believes they could be useful pawns to force police or a government to surrender... especially if they are publicly supported heroes), then there is a chance that players will let their characters be captured and disarmed (or rendered at least temporarily powerless).

How many times have heroes like Batman or Captain America found themselves in a situation where they were overpowered and captured... only to be told a villain's master plan before they pull off a daring escape and thwart the villains plan in the process (though likely having to allow the villain to escape in the process)? How many times have groups like the Justice League or the Avengers had to fall back to tend to their wounded and regroup before coming up with a new plan to deal with some new group of villains that were more powerful than they anticipated... or a being that was a more serious threat than first appeared? How many times in comics are heroes left for dead by opponents who believe there is no way a hero could survive some catastrophe they (the villain or hero) may have caused? How many villains stuck around to make sure the hero was actually dead in such cases?

Even a temporary defeat in a single fight doesn't mean the end of an adventure... especially if the hero or villain has a chance to escape or plot a comeback (Villians regularly escaped from Stryker's Island, the Raft and even Arkham Asylum after all)... and more than one hero has continued to follow a villain they underestimated and were beaten by... only to learn from the experience and take such villains down in the rematch.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Razorwing wrote:You can't really knock some out if you are pulling your punch... now can you. By pulling your punch to do less damage, there is actually less force with which to deliver a knock out blow. You can't knock someone out if you do zero damage to them... and (in my opinion) if you pull your punch, you will never deliver enough force (regardless of the damage you do allow) to knock a person out.

Your proposed house rule doesn't line up with Palladium mechanics. The knockout is based on whether or not you roll a natural 20, not how much damage you do.

Taking pulled punches out of the equation, a standard punch does 1D4, so if you rolled 1 damage, a natural 20 being a critical doubles that to 2, meaning that you should be able to do knockouts with as little as 2 damage.

In the case of a powerful guy who does 1d4+10 damage per punch, if he wants to cut that to 1/4 and (rolling a 12, let's say) reduce that to 3 damage with a Pull Punch maneuver, that should be just fine, since he's still doing more damage than the normal minimum required to do knockouts.

That's just looking at standard though. There isn't actually a requirement to do damage. In Rifts for example, there's actually nothing stopping you from delivering a knockout to a natural 20 on someone wearing an MDC helmet with an SDC punch.

You aren't required to actually damage the skull, simply cause a jerky movement which causes trauma to the brain.

The effect isn't damage-based. If I took 2 damage from a punch and got knocked out and someone did "Healing Touch" and restored the 2 damage, that wouldn't wake me up.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Mechanically... you are right... and wrong. Yes, one can "Pull" a Knock Out attempt to do a minimum of damage... but does that really make sense?

A Knock Out blow is more about delivering enough force... not actual damage, but a fast, sudden blow to a specific location to render a person unconscious. You see this a lot in cheesy spy shows and such where they do a Karate-style chop to the back of a person's neck and he falls unconscious. It is the force of the blow... not the damage done that renders a person unconscious.

Now... what are you doing when you "pull" a punch? You are holding back... not using the full force of your punch. If you are not delivering the full force of your strength... you won't deliver enough force to knock a person out. Again, you see this in bad spy comedies like "Get Smart" where Maxwell Smart holds back from hurting a foe... and consequently doesn't knock them out.

This is why I house rule that if one "pulls" their punch... it won't deliver a knock out. It has nothing to do with the damage or getting a lucky roll... but the force behind the blow. If you pull your punch, you will never deliver enough force to knock a person out.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Axelmania »

If a weak guy can do a knockout punch then a strong guy who pulls his punch enough to hit the same as the weak guy should still be able to do it.

We have to remember that knockout punches have a damaging effect not normally represented in points. This is seen with roll with punch..if this succeeds against a knockout, instead of doing 1/2 the damage of a punch it does 2x the damage.

The issue of reduction is a bit confused. HU2 p 65 under "attacker rolls damage" @ end says "down to one point" in parenthesis while pg 69 "a single point of damage, or no damage.at all" broadens the options.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Again... it is the force behind the punch... not the damage the punch is doing that is causing the Knock Out. Damage is irrelevant to the effect. If you are holding back by pulling your punch... you won't be able to deal the needed force to deliver a knock out. Look at boxing matches where a person is knocked out... the person who knocked them out NEVER held back with that final punch... he used the full force he had to deliver the Knock Out.

When you are talking weak, you do realize that anyone from PS 3 to 15 will deliver a 1d4 damage punch with full effort... meaning weak is a relative term. Sure, you can have a person with a PS of 30 pull his pinch to deal a mere 4 damage rather than the 1d4+15 damage he would normally do (more with superhuman or Supernatural PS), but in doing so he is holding back nearly 4/5ths of the force he would deliver with a punch... delivering a mere 20% of the force he would normally. Meanwhile that weaker person who only does the normal 1d4 damage still has 100% of the force behind their punch with at most 4 damage.

how are you going to knock out a person if you are only using 20% of the force you can?

This is why, in my opinion, pulling a punch makes delivering a knock out impossible... they are mutually exclusive options... if you are doing one, you can't do the other as well.
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Axelmania
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Knockouts which happen later in fights are not necessarily full force due to fatigue. Punchers also hit at different speeds. A fast puncher intentionally punching slower could still be hitting faster than the fastest punch of a slower boxer who is still capable of doing knockouts.

Not certain where you get the idea of force and damage being separate here. Higher damage from higher PS means hitting with more force, meaning you have more to spare.

PS30 guy hitting at 1/2 force is still hitting with more than 2x the force of PS 15 guy.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

I would think that if your strength was great enough you could potentially knock someone out even when pulling punches. Just not sure what the rules say about it though.
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Razorwing
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Of course how you choose to handle Knock Outs is your choice, but that really doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand... namely how likely is it for heroes and villains to fight to the death. I've given you my reasons for the house rule I use... and whether you agree with them or not, it isn't going to change how I play... and I doubt it will affect how you choose to play.

I say it is time to drop this tangent (or move it to its own thread) and get back to the original purpose of this post.
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Axelmania
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Another option would be sweep kicks. They do no damage so you could do them until you rolled a natural 20 (since rules as written, boxing never specifies punches)'and each time you deplete a melee attack or two since it can only be dodged not parried.
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Razorwing
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Axelmania wrote:Another option would be sweep kicks. They do no damage so you could do them until you rolled a natural 20 (since rules as written, boxing never specifies punches)'and each time you deplete a melee attack or two since it can only be dodged not parried.


It may never have specified punches... but since boxing doesn't teach any kicking techniques (never seen any Boxer kick in a match)... I would have to rule... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Now... let's let this drop and let people get back to discussing the actual topic of this thread.
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Axelmania
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Axelmania »

This is on topic, OP asked how to disable villains without killing.

House ruling that natural 20 knockouts only applying to punches is as reasonable as saying the +2 to parry/dodge only applies against punches, or that your extra melee attack must be a punch.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Axelmania wrote:This is on topic, OP asked how to disable villains without killing.

House ruling that natural 20 knockouts only applying to punches is as reasonable as saying the +2 to parry/dodge only applies against punches, or that your extra melee attack must be a punch.


Not exactly... he asked how likely is it that villains will stay and fight to the death. At what point do they either surrender or try to flee... and if they have the upper hand, do they finish of struggling heroes... chase after them (should the heroes retreat)... or make good their escape while they have the chance.

In other words... playing villains and criminals in an intelligent way.

It wasn't about players not killing them... players may do that regardless of whether or not a villain surrenders or not, but at what point do villains cut their losses and give up or flee.

As for the Natural Knockout... I explained my reasoning behind the house-rule I mentioned... namely that holding back one's full strength by pulling one's punch will negate the possibility of delivering a Knockout as it prevents the character from dealing the force needed to deliver said Knock-Out. Knocking out one's opponent isn't about dealing damage to an opponent, but rather sufficient force to cause sudden unconsciousness... something that really can't be done if one is holding back their full strength to deal minimal or no damage. That is the reasoning behind the house rule my groups use. You may not agree with it... and you don't have to use it... but that won't change our games.

One has to remember that unless one has the Boxing Skill, one has to declare one's intent to Knockout an opponent with a punch before they make the roll. It is only automatic when one has the Boxing Skill. Likewise... one has to declare their intend to pull their punch before they make the roll... and can only reduce the damage if that roll is 11 or higher (including bonuses to pull punch). So even if you do declare that you are attempting a Knockout and intend to pull the punch to deal minimal damage, there is still a chance that you won't succeed with either (rolling between 5 and 10 result after including bonuses) and still inflict full damage... and that is assuming a normal opponent without any armor or Natural AR.
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Axelmania
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Razorwing wrote:holding back one's full strength by pulling one's punch will negate the possibility of delivering a Knockout as it prevents the character from dealing the force needed to deliver said Knock-Out.

Force is damage.

Punches do 1d4, at minimum 1, crit doubling to 2.

As long as pull punch does not reduce damage to 1 or 0 there doesn't seem grounds to say it lacks the force.

If you want to apply a minimum damage higher.than that, it would prevent boxers without damage bonuses rolling a 1 (25% chance) from doing knockouts.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Axelmania wrote:
Razorwing wrote:holding back one's full strength by pulling one's punch will negate the possibility of delivering a Knockout as it prevents the character from dealing the force needed to deliver said Knock-Out.

Force is damage.

Punches do 1d4, at minimum 1, crit doubling to 2.

As long as pull punch does not reduce damage to 1 or 0 there doesn't seem grounds to say it lacks the force.

If you want to apply a minimum damage higher.than that, it would prevent boxers without damage bonuses rolling a 1 (25% chance) from doing knockouts.


What part of "Agree to disagree" was difficult to understand. I explained my reasoning for "MY" house rule in "MY" games. I am not trying to convince you of it... so why are you trying to convince me I am wrong to play "MY" games the way "I" want to? Who are you really trying to convince... me... or yourself?

Drop the subject and return to the intent of this thread... or all your arguing will end up doing is having this thread locked so no one can discuss it further. You've made your point clear that you didn't like the Knock Out example Palladium provided... that is your prerogative. To bog this thread down with further discussion of an irrelevant tangent is pointless.

You are so fixated on proving yourself right that you are ignoring the topic of the thread... will villains or heroes really fight to the death when they encounter each other? At what point does one side or the other cut their losses and try to flee or surrender? Does the side with the upper hand push their advantage even when it could cost them their real goal?

A villain robs a bank for what? Money? What good will that money do him if he dies before he can escape? Is it really worth it to him to fight to the death against a hero? Even if he over powers the hero... will he go out of his way to kill him? Will he risk being captured by other heroes or cops arriving to reinforce this hero if he has the chance to make his getaway... something he was planning on doing in the first place... just to kill this current hero in his way (that can no longer stop him from getting away)? At the moment... the only crime he has really committed was theft (possibly armed theft)... killing the hero would add manslaughter, if not murder to that if he is captured... which has a much higher penalty if convicted... is it worth the risk? By the same token... if the hero forces the villain to leave... without the money... isn't it enough that he thwarted the crime, even if the villain got away? Does he risk being charged with manslaughter or murder for acting as judge, jury and executioner? Are there hostages at stake that could justify using lethal force to prevent the villain from escaping at any cost?

In other words... where should heroes or villains draw the line at how long they fight before they surrender or flee/regroup?

Just how likely is it that arguing about Knock Out rules will come into play in such a situation? How likely is it that one will be able to realistically apply a knockout to an opponent in these kinds of battles? Even if one does manage to land an actual knockout blow (natural 18 to 20, depending on what HTH skills one has), the opponent sill gets to roll a save... 15 or higher with PE bonus... so not only is your strike not guaranteed to knock a person out, they have a chance to resist if you managed to get the needed roll (and they can add a bonus to save... where you can't add one to knock them out). Out of all the ways to end a fight without killing... Knockouts are probably the least likely to succeed... with only a 5 to 15% chance such a blow a blow will hit... and with a 25 to 65% chance of it being resisted if it does. Of course this doesn't mean one doesn't try... but it isn't likely going to be what ends the fight without killing.

Only the players... including the GM can decide when the characters... including the NPC villains... stop fighting and flee or surrender. No game mechanic rule will decide that for them... so please... stop trying to convince us that you are right... it doesn't matter if you are... and most of us have stopped caring if you are.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Hunterrose »

In a slightly off topic note, I've been GM'ing some games recently. Everyone in the group is fairly new to the game (although more or less experienced with RPGs in general) This weekend we were playing a lowlevel sin city-esque mystery adventure and the two players were up against a much stronger opponent.

Independently they decided to have one entangle the villain while other concentrated on KO-blows. It took him 10 actions (2 1/2 Meelees) to roll a 19 but he did eventually knock the guy out.

I was impressed that they chose the tougher path despite having access to leathal force, specifically because they did NOT want to kill someone.

One thing we enjoy about HU in compared to some other games we've played (ie- D&D, PF) is that the standard "Kill and Loot" behavior works much differently if you're in a contemporary semi-realistic semi-relatable setting.
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

I think people are mistaking what constitutes lethal and non-lethal fighting.

Unlike other games that differentiates between damage that can kill and that which can't... Palladium doesn't. Damage is damage and enough of it can kill.

What Palladium does do however is give characters an in-build level of resistance to life-threatening damage in the form of SDC. Damage to SDC is generally seen as minor scrapes and bruising that most people rarely concern themselves with. Hit Point damage on the other hand is much more serious damage as one's life is directly threatened by this type of damage. While everyone will agree that a gun can kill... when it is only doing SDC damage to a person, they aren't actually getting bullets lodged in their body (that would be HP damage), but rather grazes and such that hurt (and deal SDC damage) but aren't serious or life threatening.

Thus... in Palladium games, non-lethal combat happens when players tend to keep the damage they do to SDC... and in most cases, once a villain or criminal's life is in danger (taking HP damage) they will either try to flee or surrender. Lethal combat happens when players are willing to continue doing life threatening damage (HP damage) that will eventually kill an opponent if they don't flee or surrender. Very few people want to die... thus most are likely to try to get out of combat once they start taking HP damage... the closer to 0 hp, the more likely and desperately they will try to get out of combat any way they can... even surrendering and hoping for mercy.

The point of the Knockout example that Palladium provided is to point out that it this maneuver isn't non-lethal... that it is possible to still kill someone while trying to knock them out. It is up to the player to draw the line at how far they will go to subdue a person. Will they reduce only his SDC or will they continue into a person's HP? Will they beat him into a coma (0 or lower HP) and risk him dying from his wounds?

Lethal combat in Palladium Games is a matter of perspective and the degree as to which it is taken to.
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Hunterrose
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Hunterrose »

I had decided that if the Villain took ANY HP Damage that he would flee. But the players have no way of knowing whether he's taking SDC or HP damage aside from my descriptions of his behavior. They made the decision to go for a knockout while the villain was clearly still very much healthy.

I was proud of them. :)
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Razorwing
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Re: Fight to the death?

Unread post by Razorwing »

Personally... I found that the chances to land a Knockout blow are too low and the chances of resisting a knockout that lands to be too high to make it worth the effort.

Of course the characters I play tend to be individuals with long range attacks that can't be used to deliver a knockout anyways... so it was usually a moot point.
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