Crime & Punishment

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Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

The thing about vigilantes that I keep running into is, how much do they actually affect criminals, and how?
If a super-hero doesn't have the power to arrest the bad guys, and doesn't have the moral flexibility to KILL them outright, and also doesn't have the good fortune to be pressed into a situation where killing the bad guy is necessary (or where the bad guy kills himself/herself/itself), what are you supposed to do with the criminals?"

Turn them over to the cops, on the hopes that they'll take your anonymous testimony about the crimes that took place (or would have)?

I mean, if you save the world in front of a bunch of witnesses, that's one thing.
If you beat the crap out of a mugger in a dark alley, that's another thing.
If you beat the crap out of a burglar in somebody's unoccupied home or office, that's another thing still.

How can justice be achieved in situations where the hero's word is the only proof of the bad guys' criminal activity?
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

You beat the crap out of them and put the fear into them to try and prevent them from committing more crimes. It doesn't generally work, but that never stopped vigilantes from doing it.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by wyrmraker »

Interestingly, body cameras are a good start for submissible evidence (unless you're in Illinois, and the perp happens to be a police officer. Then the evidence is illegal as all get out). A good, base knowledge of Citizen's Arrest is another positive step.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Good posts so far.
:ok:
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

Drop the perp off with audio/video evidence and illegal items.

Beat the crud out of them, take their money, destroy their stash/tools of their trade. Make committing a crime unprofitable.

Work with a LEO who will act as your cover/proxy with the police and courts.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by eliakon »

I think that one thing that gets overlooked here...
...is that Vigilantes are criminals.
They are not interested in 'upholding the law' or 'civil rights' or any of that stuff.
If they were, they would not be vigilante's in the first part.
That is sort of implicit in the "I am a serial criminal" choice of carrier options.
Thus they don't strike me as carring about doing things legally.
They are not there to increase the conviction rate. They are there to lower the crime rate and they will do that by any means necessary;
Beat people up
-Stalk them and terrorize them (you know... little stuff like beat the drug dealer up, steal his baggies... and then stick those bags in his kids lunch box, his wifes pocket, the collar of their pet, on the dresser of their elderly grand parent...)

-Steal their money (not just what they have on them either... a telepath for instance might steal PIN numbers and wipe out your entire bank accounts, an 'accidental' flood at their house might really suck... especially if you just forged a letter dropping their insurance.)

-Ruin their identities (nude pictures, dropping them off... nude by the school so they get registered as a sex offender, use their car to speed through red light cameras...)

-Each time you catch the same person you 'up the ante' a bit more

Also establish an informant identity ("deep throat" anyone?)... who calls the police with anonymous tips.
Those tips can then be acted on.
Thus the vigilante may not legally determine that the meth lab is at 217 Pine. But the Police are able to make a legal raid there because the tip that they are following up on WOULD stand up in court.
This will require the law skill to know what information you can feed the police and what you can't
This can also help you when you need to 'clean up'
If "The Blue Haze" calls in and says that there are four people in need of trauma aid in apartment 4f of Woodbury, even though no one else has heard anything, its far more likely to get a response than if some random pay phone (yes they still exist!) calls in and says the same thing.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SpiritInterface wrote:Drop the perp off with audio/video evidence and illegal items.

Beat the crud out of them, take their money, destroy their stash/tools of their trade. Make committing a crime unprofitable.

Work with a LEO who will act as your cover/proxy with the police and courts.


Good insight!
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:I think that one thing that gets overlooked here...
...is that Vigilantes are criminals.
They are not interested in 'upholding the law' or 'civil rights' or any of that stuff.
If they were, they would not be vigilante's in the first part.
That is sort of implicit in the "I am a serial criminal" choice of carrier options.
Thus they don't strike me as carring about doing things legally.
They are not there to increase the conviction rate. They are there to lower the crime rate and they will do that by any means necessary;
Beat people up
-Stalk them and terrorize them (you know... little stuff like beat the drug dealer up, steal his baggies... and then stick those bags in his kids lunch box, his wifes pocket, the collar of their pet, on the dresser of their elderly grand parent...)

-Steal their money (not just what they have on them either... a telepath for instance might steal PIN numbers and wipe out your entire bank accounts, an 'accidental' flood at their house might really suck... especially if you just forged a letter dropping their insurance.)

-Ruin their identities (nude pictures, dropping them off... nude by the school so they get registered as a sex offender, use their car to speed through red light cameras...)

-Each time you catch the same person you 'up the ante' a bit more


True enough.
But what if the person is a murderer or rapist, but the vigilante isn't morally okay with murdering (or raping) the criminal?
Beating them up each time they commit the crime doesn't seem effective, unless you can reliably beat them up every time they even attempt the crime, thereby preventing the crime entirely.
But most heroes don't have the power level or skill level required to guarantee that level of intervention, especially with more than one target.

Also establish an informant identity ("deep throat" anyone?)... who calls the police with anonymous tips.
Those tips can then be acted on.
Thus the vigilante may not legally determine that the meth lab is at 217 Pine. But the Police are able to make a legal raid there because the tip that they are following up on WOULD stand up in court.
This will require the law skill to know what information you can feed the police and what you can't
This can also help you when you need to 'clean up'
If "The Blue Haze" calls in and says that there are four people in need of trauma aid in apartment 4f of Woodbury, even though no one else has heard anything, its far more likely to get a response than if some random pay phone (yes they still exist!) calls in and says the same thing.


Good post.
:ok:
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

I think the over reaching intent in comics, when vigilanties do their thing is wither
1) The super villain seldom does his villainy in secret. It's usually out in front of the world and caught on camera and 100 cell phones as he's doing his thing. So when someone comes in and stops him, the 'proof' is already there.

or

2) if the vigilante is more secretive, it's seldom that the criminals are dropped off for arrest. Batman doesn't really round up tons of street crime for the police to lock up. beating the crap out of them and terrorizing them to 'stop' their criminal ways is the intent.

Comics gloss over this sometimes. Heroes like Superman are actually Deputized to fight crime. As are the Avengers (Sometimes. Depends on whom and when,) So they're not actually vigalanties. Heroes like Batman didn't 'used' to be deputized, but the cops couldn't do stuff on their own so called to ask for help. In large stretches of the mythos the cops 'tried' to capture batman as much as the others. But the colluding with him was on the side and off the books.

Then you have groups like the Xmen, which -are- illegal groups with powers that equate them to terrorist cells with weapons of mass destruction. And they have a rather horrible time of it. Sure they live in a mansion but how many times did the government blow it up/destroy it trying to take them into custody over and over? Then in more recent years they moved the campus, had two campuses, had an entire nation, etc, all the time "heroes" technically were charged with trying to arrest them. The Xmen never turn their baddies over to the cops. They just beat/stop the baddies from being bad.

So it largely depends on your world view and how you've set such things up. The topic post dictates vigalanties.

So you have to decide on the cop's relationship with the people in question. Is it like Batman where most of the police force secretly like him so they 'let' him escape when they get there, with a few out layers that try and shoot him. Or is it more like Xmen where they whisk away in a Black bird to avoid incarceration (Well attempted as the Xmen could mop the floor with most cops)

Just remember trying to have "TOO REALISTIC" outlooks on some mutant whom turns into green glowing gel and then sets his gel form on fire, squirting/flying through the sky and shooting gelly fire bolts at people.... is going to chafe in some way. It touches on the "Well what laws does YOUR game have, pertaining to Supers" etc.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

This is the argument Punisher and Daredevil had on the Netfix TV show. Very well done.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Reagren Wright wrote:This is the argument Punisher and Daredevil had on the Netfix TV show. Very well done.


Not really. Their debate was "Beat up" or "Kill because beat up isn't enough".
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by RockJock »

It depends on the situation. Many times leaving the murderer/rapist beaten up, and tied up for the cops to pick up would be a convenient way for the cops to get the perp's fingerprints and DNA, linking him to the murder/rape. They have to treat the bad guy's wounds and eliminate his fingerprints and hair from the vigilante who beat him up right?
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Reagren Wright wrote:This is the argument Punisher and Daredevil had on the Netfix TV show. Very well done.


Not really. Their debate was "Beat up" or "Kill because beat up isn't enough".


Close enough.

If you were playing a super villain, or just a mugger, and a super hero beat you up, what would your character do next?
Reform?
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

RockJock wrote:It depends on the situation. Many times leaving the murderer/rapist beaten up, and tied up for the cops to pick up would be a convenient way for the cops to get the perp's fingerprints and DNA, linking him to the murder/rape. They have to treat the bad guy's wounds and eliminate his fingerprints and hair from the vigilante who beat him up right?


in legal terms that's refered to as "Fruit of the poisonous tree" and would not be allowed in court.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by RockJock »

I'm not a lawyer, but the way I understand it if you are a bad dude, and the cops are investigating a crime, for example, you being assaulted, or kidnapped by a vigilante, and in their investigation come up with evidence connecting you to a murder/rape it is not poisoned fruit. The police would need to go through the motions, and if you want to file charges it is easy. If you, as the bad guy refuse to press charges, but still get medical treatment at the police station/ambulance I wouldn't see the medical waste as poisoned fruit. Similar to blood tests involved in a pedestrian getting hit by a car. The driver gets tested, but so does the pedestrian if he goes in for treatment.

I'm not a lawyer, so I could be way off, but to me it fits, especially for a game.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Illegal search and seizure.

While I'm not a lawyer either, I'm about ...95% certain that, the cops can't blatantly dodge the laws in that fashion and ever have it hold up in court.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by eliakon »

Both are correct.
A big issue will be the specific laws in the jurisdiction.
The 'FotPT' doctrine says that if a piece of evidence is acquired illegally then it, and all evidence that is subsequently gained is inadmissible.
Which means that it will then require knowing what the local laws on, for example, DNA evidence are.
In the USA right now for example you need either consent or a warrant to run a persons DNA through the banks.
However, that warrant can be issued for several things. It does not have to be, for example, for rape.
And yes, if you are running a persons DNA through to exclude them from scene A (and are doing that legally and properly) and they come up flagged for Crime B, then its not FotPT. But if you just ran their DNA with OUT the proper procedures you just excluded their DNA.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Regularguy »

eliakon wrote:Both are correct.
A big issue will be the specific laws in the jurisdiction.
The 'FotPT' doctrine says that if a piece of evidence is acquired illegally then it, and all evidence that is subsequently gained is inadmissible.


As I understand it, FotPT only renders inadmissible evidence acquired illegally by the authorities -- such that, if some private citizen illegally acquires evidence while acting on his own initiative, FotPT wouldn't bar the authorities from using it. (Granted, charges could then be brought against that private citizen -- but that's a separate matter.)
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Nightmask »

Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Both are correct.
A big issue will be the specific laws in the jurisdiction.
The 'FotPT' doctrine says that if a piece of evidence is acquired illegally then it, and all evidence that is subsequently gained is inadmissible.


As I understand it, FotPT only renders inadmissible evidence acquired illegally by the authorities -- such that, if some private citizen illegally acquires evidence while acting on his own initiative, FotPT wouldn't bar the authorities from using it. (Granted, charges could then be brought against that private citizen -- but that's a separate matter.)


Which is why on rare occasion in the news you'll hear how someone was arrested for having child pornography because someone broke into their home, stole their computer (often a laptop), found the material on it and promptly turned it in to the police along with who they stole it from. The thief still had to worry about being arrested if caught for his crime of breaking and entering and theft but it didn't stop authorities from prosecuting the other criminal.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by parkhyun »

Killer Cyborg wrote:The thing about vigilantes that I keep running into is, how much do they actually affect criminals, and how?
If a super-hero doesn't have the power to arrest the bad guys, and doesn't have the moral flexibility to KILL them outright, and also doesn't have the good fortune to be pressed into a situation where killing the bad guy is necessary (or where the bad guy kills himself/herself/itself), what are you supposed to do with the criminals?"

Turn them over to the cops, on the hopes that they'll take your anonymous testimony about the crimes that took place (or would have)?

I mean, if you save the world in front of a bunch of witnesses, that's one thing.
If you beat the crap out of a mugger in a dark alley, that's another thing.
If you beat the crap out of a burglar in somebody's unoccupied home or office, that's another thing still.

How can justice be achieved in situations where the hero's word is the only proof of the bad guys' criminal activity?


Ahhhh... yet another poster I can direct toward my never-to-be published supplement.
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=142544

Okay, long story short. I am a lawyer, and a trial attorney at that. I'm not going to post personal details online, so you'll just have to take my word for it, but I can at least add links to show I'm not making things up.

https://www.rulesofevidence.org/table-of-contents/

Let's start with rule 801, which defines hearsay as an out-of-court statement offered for the truth of the matter. That includes most audio and video files. See, you can't just bring audio and video files into evidence in front of a jury. They're hearsay documents - that is, they include statements made out of court, and the prosecution is bringing them into evidence in order to prove the truth of what is said in them. The rules of evidence preclude that.

Second, we go to rule 901, Authentication. You have to be able to prove the audio or video file is what you say it is. Usually, you do that by laying foundation, that is, you have a witness testify that the file is a true and accurate depiction of what actually was said or happened. That requires a witness who was there and who will testify in court as to the fairness of the audio or video file.

What does this mean? It means that your superhero cannot use his or her photos or video of a super-villain against that person in court unless the hero is willing to testify in person (or unless another person at the scene can testify to its authenticity). The hearsay rule is pretty easy to circumvent, because of the party-opponent rule: a defendant's words can always be used against him or her, a la Miranda rights. However, the authentication rule is much more difficult to circumvent, because few exceptions will allow a prosecutor to simply submit evidence without proving its reliability.

So - what is a vigilante to do? Kill them; kill them all. The vigilante works outside the law precisely because he or she cannot operate legally. Legal remedies require court appearances, and that will render the vigilante liable for his or her actions. Vigilantes are considered illegal for a reason! Their approach cannot work within the confines of a legal system; for that reason, principled characters will have a hard time taking the vigilante approach.

Okay, so what about superheroes? Well, they're going to have to be more clever. There's a reason Heroes Unlimited is called the "Thinking Man's Superhero Game," and it's not just because SDC values tend to be on the lower side. I wrote the supplement for a reason - read it!
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Nightmask wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Both are correct.
A big issue will be the specific laws in the jurisdiction.
The 'FotPT' doctrine says that if a piece of evidence is acquired illegally then it, and all evidence that is subsequently gained is inadmissible.


As I understand it, FotPT only renders inadmissible evidence acquired illegally by the authorities -- such that, if some private citizen illegally acquires evidence while acting on his own initiative, FotPT wouldn't bar the authorities from using it. (Granted, charges could then be brought against that private citizen -- but that's a separate matter.)


Which is why on rare occasion in the news you'll hear how someone was arrested for having child pornography because someone broke into their home, stole their computer (often a laptop), found the material on it and promptly turned it in to the police along with who they stole it from. The thief still had to worry about being arrested if caught for his crime of breaking and entering and theft but it didn't stop authorities from prosecuting the other criminal.



But that's not the same as finding someone beat up and "Just so happening" to take their blood and running the DNA. That's clearly illegal. Above it was proposed that the police use it in a 'nudge nudge wink wink" run around.

Someone providing evidence of wrong doing isn't the same as stealing the person's blood to run for other crimes. As pointed out you need a warrant for blood collection, and can't just do so on a whim
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by eliakon »

Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard".
What ever it is, if the person turns themselves in, confesses and pleads guilty after turning in the request evidence then "justice is served". (at least in the vigilantes mind.)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Regularguy »

eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard"


...mind control...
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard".
What ever it is, if the person turns themselves in, confesses and pleads guilty after turning in the request evidence then "justice is served". (at least in the vigilantes mind.)


If you're doing that you're just as bad as them. lol

Most vigilante's don't really care that they're breaking the law to beat the crap out of the villain. "Stopping" the crime at hand is what they're aiming for. Not long term rehabilitation.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Nightmask »

Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard"


...mind control...


Hal Jordan/Green Lantern did that at least once that I've seen in the Silver Age, but it was only because his secret ID was suspected of committing the crimes so his way of clearing himself was finding the criminal and compelling him with his ring to confess all his crimes. Something not considered the actions of a hero nowadays.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by eliakon »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard".
What ever it is, if the person turns themselves in, confesses and pleads guilty after turning in the request evidence then "justice is served". (at least in the vigilantes mind.)


If you're doing that you're just as bad as them. lol

Most vigilante's don't really care that they're breaking the law to beat the crap out of the villain. "Stopping" the crime at hand is what they're aiming for. Not long term rehabilitation.

I never said they weren't
Vigilatnte's are already criminals yes?
Ones who are already saying that they do not care about laws, or rights, or anything other than their personal opinions of right and wrong.
That does not speak to me of a person that is going to care about any sort of "your as bad as them"

Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard"


...mind control...

THAT though is a bad idea.
Once the mind control ends the criminal will be able to plead that they were mind controlled into making a false confession and get the entire case thrown out.
The goal, if your are trying to get them in prison and not the graveyard or hospital of course, is to get something that WILL stick even with you operation totally outside the law.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Regularguy »

elision wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard"


...mind control...

THAT though is a bad idea.
Once the mind control ends the criminal will be able to plead that they were mind controlled into making a false confession and get the entire case thrown out.


Well, look, anyone can say they were mind-controlled. Like, even folks who haven't been mind-controlled can say it.

Even so, consider the case of someone who committed murder and hid the body; and who likely won't be convicted unless the cops find that body. I mean, yeah, maybe the authorities could get a conviction without it, and so maybe they'll try; but the odds aren't great. Still, figure the cops make it absolutely clear to the suspect that (a) they have some evidence that he's a murderer, and (b) if trained investigators find that body before he confesses, then he's looking at the death penalty; but if he tells 'em where the body is, then we're talking 20 years, tops.

So say that killer, under a lot of pressure, announces that he can't risk it and takes the deal: confessing by telling them where that body is buried; and the cops dig up the body, with a bullet in it that matches the killer's gun or whatever; and the killer is now looking at 20 years instead of a death sentence. What happens if the killer then claims -- accurately or inaccurately -- that he was mind-controlled into making that confession?
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by eliakon »

Regularguy wrote:
elision wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard"


...mind control...

THAT though is a bad idea.
Once the mind control ends the criminal will be able to plead that they were mind controlled into making a false confession and get the entire case thrown out.


Well, look, anyone can say they were mind-controlled. Like, even folks who haven't been mind-controlled can say it.

Even so, consider the case of someone who committed murder and hid the body; and who likely won't be convicted unless the cops find that body. I mean, yeah, maybe the authorities could get a conviction without it, and so maybe they'll try; but the odds aren't great. Still, figure the cops make it absolutely clear to the suspect that (a) they have some evidence that he's a murderer, and (b) if trained investigators find that body before he confesses, then he's looking at the death penalty; but if he tells 'em where the body is, then we're talking 20 years, tops.

So say that killer, under a lot of pressure, announces that he can't risk it and takes the deal: confessing by telling them where that body is buried; and the cops dig up the body, with a bullet in it that matches the killer's gun or whatever; and the killer is now looking at 20 years instead of a death sentence. What happens if the killer then claims -- accurately or inaccurately -- that he was mind-controlled into making that confession?

I would speculate that there is going to be some sort of way for the courts to handle mind control
Either via some sort of friendly telepath or what have you...
...or the entire justice system will break down really quickly as it will be nearly impossible to get the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' since anyone will be able to alibi anything with "I didn't do it, the person controlling me/possessing me/what ever did it"
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Pepsi Jedi
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard".
What ever it is, if the person turns themselves in, confesses and pleads guilty after turning in the request evidence then "justice is served". (at least in the vigilantes mind.)


If you're doing that you're just as bad as them. lol

Most vigilante's don't really care that they're breaking the law to beat the crap out of the villain. "Stopping" the crime at hand is what they're aiming for. Not long term rehabilitation.

I never said they weren't
Vigilatnte's are already criminals yes?
Ones who are already saying that they do not care about laws, or rights, or anything other than their personal opinions of right and wrong.
That does not speak to me of a person that is going to care about any sort of "your as bad as them"

Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard"


...mind control...

THAT though is a bad idea.
Once the mind control ends the criminal will be able to plead that they were mind controlled into making a false confession and get the entire case thrown out.
The goal, if your are trying to get them in prison and not the graveyard or hospital of course, is to get something that WILL stick even with you operation totally outside the law.


Well that's the thing. Vigilantes do care about SOME laws and the people at large. That's why they do what they do. They just don't care that by stopping criminals they're technically breaking some laws. Assault, sometimes breaking an entering, etc.

Typically they don't go out of their way to break 'more' laws and frame their foes, or coherse them with threats to their family or something. That's the sort of thing that Villains do.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Regularguy »

eliakon wrote:
Regularguy wrote:So say that killer, under a lot of pressure, announces that he can't risk it and takes the deal: confessing by telling them where that body is buried; and the cops dig up the body, with a bullet in it that matches the killer's gun or whatever; and the killer is now looking at 20 years instead of a death sentence. What happens if the killer then claims -- accurately or inaccurately -- that he was mind-controlled into making that confession?

I would speculate that there is going to be some sort of way for the courts to handle mind control
Either via some sort of friendly telepath or what have you...
...or the entire justice system will break down really quickly as it will be nearly impossible to get the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' since anyone will be able to alibi anything with "I didn't do it, the person controlling me/possessing me/what ever did it"


Heh. Look, if you're willing to speculate up a friendly telepath so the courts can handle mind-control claims, then our hero maybe doesn't need to mind-control the killer into revealing the location of evidence; just let the friendly telepath handle that, too!

Seriously, though, consider a power combination I've mentioned before for a psionicist who of course starts play with three abilities from the "Super" category -- Empathic Transfer for Believe-Everything-I-Say trust; plus Insert Memory, to, uh, insert a memory; plus Mind Wipe, to erase a memory -- plus a sensitivity for picking up surface thoughts throughout. Will the crook even know his mind was controlled? Or will he just recall something so innocuous that even a "friendly telepath" wouldn't find anything amiss, if he's looking, which he won't be?
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by eliakon »

Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Regularguy wrote:So say that killer, under a lot of pressure, announces that he can't risk it and takes the deal: confessing by telling them where that body is buried; and the cops dig up the body, with a bullet in it that matches the killer's gun or whatever; and the killer is now looking at 20 years instead of a death sentence. What happens if the killer then claims -- accurately or inaccurately -- that he was mind-controlled into making that confession?

I would speculate that there is going to be some sort of way for the courts to handle mind control
Either via some sort of friendly telepath or what have you...
...or the entire justice system will break down really quickly as it will be nearly impossible to get the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' since anyone will be able to alibi anything with "I didn't do it, the person controlling me/possessing me/what ever did it"


Heh. Look, if you're willing to speculate up a friendly telepath so the courts can handle mind-control claims, then our hero maybe doesn't need to mind-control the killer into revealing the location of evidence; just let the friendly telepath handle that, too!

Seriously, though, consider a power combination I've mentioned before for a psionicist who of course starts play with three abilities from the "Super" category -- Empathic Transfer for Believe-Everything-I-Say trust; plus Insert Memory, to, uh, insert a memory; plus Mind Wipe, to erase a memory -- plus a sensitivity for picking up surface thoughts throughout. Will the crook even know his mind was controlled? Or will he just remember something so innocuous that even a "friendly telepath" won't find anything amiss, if he's looking, which he won't be?

Well basically you have just explained how to make no crime stick.
Or, put another way...
...you just broke the setting. Now how do you propose to fix it :P
Because you just made it so that under US law it will be more or less impossible to convict anyone of anything. As anyone will be able to plead "A psi did it"
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Nightmask »

Regularguy wrote:
elision wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
eliakon wrote:Probably one of the "best" routes a vigilante can take is to 'convince' the criminal to turn themselves in.
That coercion can come through physical violence, economic violence, threats to loved ones, social embarrassment, mental trauma (stalking for example), or a simple "well I can't get to you in prison, unlike bob who is in the graveyard"


...mind control...

THAT though is a bad idea.
Once the mind control ends the criminal will be able to plead that they were mind controlled into making a false confession and get the entire case thrown out.


Well, look, anyone can say they were mind-controlled. Like, even folks who haven't been mind-controlled can say it.

Even so, consider the case of someone who committed murder and hid the body; and who likely won't be convicted unless the cops find that body. I mean, yeah, maybe the authorities could get a conviction without it, and so maybe they'll try; but the odds aren't great. Still, figure the cops make it absolutely clear to the suspect that (a) they have some evidence that he's a murderer, and (b) if trained investigators find that body before he confesses, then he's looking at the death penalty; but if he tells 'em where the body is, then we're talking 20 years, tops.

So say that killer, under a lot of pressure, announces that he can't risk it and takes the deal: confessing by telling them where that body is buried; and the cops dig up the body, with a bullet in it that matches the killer's gun or whatever; and the killer is now looking at 20 years instead of a death sentence. What happens if the killer then claims -- accurately or inaccurately -- that he was mind-controlled into making that confession?


Then his lawyer during the trial has to bring up compelling evidence to support the contention, it's not enough to simply claim 'I was mind-controlled into confessing' you have to prove you were. The prosecutor already has a confession and body, he doesn't need more at that point since he has proof beyond a reasonable doubt who did it and that the crime was done. Not that defense attorneys haven't tried baseless speculation to try and divert but juries in general will consider a confession as valid no matter what, they aren't likely to believe 'some psychic dude made me confess'.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Regularguy »

eliakon wrote:Or, put another way...
...you just broke the setting. Now how do you propose to fix it :P
Because you just made it so that under US law it will be more or less impossible to convict anyone of anything. As anyone will be able to plead "A psi did it"


Ironically, it's possible that anyone so bamboozled by said psi wouldn't want to plead that, such that only folks who haven't been hit with mind control would ever -- falsely -- plead that A Psi Did It; can't tell whether that doubles the problem or solves it away entirely!
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Regularguy »

Nightmask wrote:Then his lawyer during the trial has to bring up compelling evidence to support the contention, it's not enough to simply claim 'I was mind-controlled into confessing' you have to prove you were. The prosecutor already has a confession and body, he doesn't need more at that point since he has proof beyond a reasonable doubt who did it and that the crime was done. Not that defense attorneys haven't tried baseless speculation to try and divert but juries in general will consider a confession as valid no matter what, they aren't likely to believe 'some psychic dude made me confess'.


But that's my whole point: what is "compelling evidence", if -- as it happens -- this is a "some psychic dude made me confess" scenario?

Yeah, the prosecutor now has a body along with that confession -- and so, like you said, now has proof beyond a reasonable doubt of whether there was a crime and whodunit. So if the murderer simply lies about having been mind-controlled, then, okay, his lawyer will have a really hard time finding compelling evidence to support that false contention; but if that murderer is telling the truth, then -- what changes, for a lawyer out to provide compelling evidence?
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Nightmask »

Regularguy wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Then his lawyer during the trial has to bring up compelling evidence to support the contention, it's not enough to simply claim 'I was mind-controlled into confessing' you have to prove you were. The prosecutor already has a confession and body, he doesn't need more at that point since he has proof beyond a reasonable doubt who did it and that the crime was done. Not that defense attorneys haven't tried baseless speculation to try and divert but juries in general will consider a confession as valid no matter what, they aren't likely to believe 'some psychic dude made me confess'.


But that's my whole point: what is "compelling evidence", if -- as it happens -- this is a "some psychic dude made me confess" scenario?

Yeah, the prosecutor now has a body along with that confession -- and so, like you said, now has proof beyond a reasonable doubt of whether there was a crime and whodunit. So if the murderer simply lies about having been mind-controlled, then, okay, his lawyer will have a really hard time finding compelling evidence to support that false contention; but if that murderer is telling the truth, then -- what changes, for a lawyer out to provide compelling evidence?


I think you're focusing on the wrong example here, whether he was mind-controlled into confessing his crimes or nor and revealing evidence certain to convict him I don't think you could get the results thrown out, he'd still end up convicted of murder. Only if you could prove that the police directly mind-controlled him or one of their agents did so might you get the confession and fruits of the confession thrown out. It also might not BE possible to provide compelling evidence someone was mind-controlled, not without the creation of reliable technology to detect such things or legal precedents making psychic testimony admissible in court and then you have to be able to vet them as expert witnesses.

Mind you Marvel decades ago DID have a case where someone (The Wraith) was mind-controlled by his father into committing various murders to suit his father's extremist views. The three-judge panel eventually found him innocent and his father guilty while leaving things vague in the law regarding how he was actually coerced into the crimes to avoid setting a precedent regarding mind-control powers, then you got the reveal that the judges were all psychics once they were back away in their private chambers together.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by RockJock »

I think the police response to Vigilantes and the baddies take down depends on what we are talking about. A gang banger being gift wrapped with a weapon, or a note telling where weapon and drug stashes are is not going to be handled by the police the same way as a russian mafia hitman.

In my games a vigilante IS going to have at least a working relationship with several individual cops that he can pass along tip, evidence etc.

If we are playing a vigilante type game it is going to be gritty. If I don't allow something like this things will quickly switch to the Punisher approach, and there will be lots of bodies until the vigilantes become the hunted.
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Re: Crime & Punishment

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

RockJock has it right.

You have to bend plausibility a bit in super hero games. If you don't , just as RockJock said, allow a few cops to help out your heroes (Like Batman before he basicly did ALL the cops jobs for them,) then your group is going to go from "Trying to help the city by bringing these guys in" To full out 'Punisher mode' PDQ.

if the police are just as bad on the heroes as the baddies and the baddies that the heroes do stop just get off free because of 'how' they were apprehended.

Then it's going to be "LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR! LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR! LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR!"
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