Robotic AR, how does it work?

[Saitou Hajime]

I been working on a new campaign for Heroes unlimited that I looking to maybe run online. i have come up with a issue that I don't quite know how AR and Robots are suppose to work. [grumblings about how AR some times seems to be like cover and sometimes seems to be something else aside] Each can buy AR to certen levels

Exoskeltons and Pilot Robots have an AR which I figure works like normal armour [*Grumbles*]

The problem becomes that using robot armour like that doesn't make sense with Robots and Androids because what are you hitting when you roll above AR then? What would make sense [not that sense and RPG in General play nicely] is that they get natural AR, thus only take damage when above AR. what what is the real answer at least according to Palladium [or a general feeling at least]

[say652]

Like a natural ar. Above to damage the robot.

I house ruled Supernatural strength inflicts half damage on his below ar that land.

[Glistam]

The A.R. that robots from the Robot power category get is equivalent to "Natural" A.R., where attacks above the A.R. number damage the armor and attacks below the A.R. number damage nothing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Natural AR, Robotic AR, and Vehicle AR share the same mechanic.

Below the AR score no damage is taken. Above the AR score damage is taken.

Note there are exceptions but they are specificly listed in the weapons that have those exceptions.

Armor Piercing rounds will reduce the AR score of the target (Penitration Value, detailed in the HUGMG). And some sonic weapons will have damage pass through.

[Dakchronos]

some what of a related question, does the AR apply to the natural roll of the d20, or the modified roll. I've seen/done some dumb min/maxings in my game days.

[say652]

I believe Bonuses to strike are added then the total Strike is vs AR. The only game line that changed was Deadreign, also why I've never purchased a Deadreign product.

[eliakon]

some what of a related question, does the AR apply to the natural roll of the d20, or the modified roll. I've seen/done some dumb min/maxings in my game days.

Officially it is the modified roll.
This can lead to houserules quickly as it is very easy to make characters that are "immune to AR"

[Dakchronos]

some what of a related question, does the AR apply to the natural roll of the d20, or the modified roll. I've seen/done some dumb min/maxings in my game days.

Officially it is the modified roll.
This can lead to houserules quickly as it is very easy to make characters that are "immune to AR"

That's what I thought. I've only ever seen AR go as high as 19, so it seemed a bit underwhelming.

[Axelmania]

I believe Bonuses to strike are added then the total Strike is vs AR. The only game line that changed was Deadreign, also why I've never purchased a Deadreign product.

Dead Reign doesn't change it, strike bonuses always work versus a zombie's natural AR.

The only case where you need to roll natural unmodified 17+ is with head/neck shots which are not AR but a special rule.

[say652]

I believe Bonuses to strike are added then the total Strike is vs AR. The only game line that changed was Deadreign, also why I've never purchased a Deadreign product.

Dead Reign doesn't change it, strike bonuses always work versus a zombie's natural AR.

The only case where you need to roll natural unmodified 17+ is with head/neck shots which are not AR but a special rule.

Another reason that i find these wonky impossible to kill zombies of no use

[drewkitty ~..~]

some what of a related question, does the AR apply to the natural roll of the d20, or the modified roll. I've seen/done some dumb min/maxings in my game days.

Officially it is the modified roll.
This can lead to house-rules quickly as it is very easy to make characters that are "immune to AR"

That's what I thought. I've only ever seen AR go as high as 19, so it seemed a bit underwhelming.

A normal AR of 19 is not all that bad. It just means that it is very hard to bypass the artificial armor to do the damage to the wearer.

With Natural AR, I think the highest I've seen is NAR 14 or NAR 16. (is thinking it was APS Metal) Which would be a tough cookie to crack. Good for a Tank/Brick type char.

[eliakon]

some what of a related question, does the AR apply to the natural roll of the d20, or the modified roll. I've seen/done some dumb min/maxings in my game days.

Officially it is the modified roll.
This can lead to house-rules quickly as it is very easy to make characters that are "immune to AR"

That's what I thought. I've only ever seen AR go as high as 19, so it seemed a bit underwhelming.

A normal AR of 19 is not all that bad. It just means that it is very hard to bypass the artificial armor to do the damage to the wearer.

With Natural AR, I think the highest I've seen is NAR 14 or NAR 16. (is thinking it was APS Metal) Which would be a tough cookie to crack. Good for a Tank/Brick type char.

The point I was making I think is best demonstrated.
Take a level 2 mystic weapon character with a magic sword (+1 strike) with PP 24 (+5 strike), H2H Martial Arts (+2 strike), W.P. (+2 strike), the two minor powers of EX SPD (+2 strike), and Wingless Flight (+2 strike).
This character has a +14 to strike... or put another way they automatically hit and bypass nAR 14 on a 1+. They only need a 6+ (75% chance) to bypass nAR19. Yes this is a 'combat optimized' character. But it isn't outrageously so by HU terms and is a good example of what I mean by "immune to AR".

[drewkitty ~..~]

The point I was making I think is best demonstrated.
Take a level 2 mystic weapon character with a magic sword (+1 strike) with PP 24 (+5 strike), H2H Martial Arts (+2 strike), W.P. (+2 strike), the two minor powers of EX SPD (+2 strike), and Wingless Flight (+2 strike).
This character has a +14 to strike... or put another way they automatically hit and bypass nAR 14 on a 1+. They only need a 6+ (75% chance) to bypass nAR19. Yes this is a 'combat optimized' character. But it isn't outrageously so by HU terms and is a good example of what I mean by "immune to AR".

I will note that within the canon grammar lexicon (how the terms are used in the books) the term 'bypass' is only used to describe when a strike roll is greater then the 'normal AR' of body armor. It is used to say the attack somehow found a place that was not protected and damage is done to the character inside the body armor.

And that within the mechanics of NAR/VAR/RAR there is no way to bypass the armor to damage the char(s) inside till the SDC of the armor is gone. And when the roll is above the NAR it is said to have beat the NAR. Otherwise the strike misses or 'bounces of' doing no damage.

Yes, a char with a +14 to strike would only need a nat roll of 6 or more to Beat a NAR 19. This does not mean it bypasses the NAR.

[eliakon]

The point I was making I think is best demonstrated.
Take a level 2 mystic weapon character with a magic sword (+1 strike) with PP 24 (+5 strike), H2H Martial Arts (+2 strike), W.P. (+2 strike), the two minor powers of EX SPD (+2 strike), and Wingless Flight (+2 strike).
This character has a +14 to strike... or put another way they automatically hit and bypass nAR 14 on a 1+. They only need a 6+ (75% chance) to bypass nAR19. Yes this is a 'combat optimized' character. But it isn't outrageously so by HU terms and is a good example of what I mean by "immune to AR".

I will note that within the canon grammar lexicon (how the terms are used in the books) the term 'bypass' is only used to describe when a strike roll is greater then the 'normal AR' of body armor. It is used to say the attack somehow found a place that was not protected and damage is done to the character inside the body armor.

And that within the mechanics of NAR/VAR/RAR there is no way to bypass the armor to damage the char(s) inside till the SDC of the armor is gone. And when the roll is above the NAR it is said to have beat the NAR. Otherwise the strike misses or 'bounces of' doing no damage.

Yes, a char with a +14 to strike would only need a nat roll of 6 or more to Beat a NAR 19. This does not mean it bypasses the NAR.

I really have no interest in arguing grammatical pedantry. However if you can pm me a copy of your degree in English (masters or higher), and your teaching certificate then I will be willing to bow to your qualifications to decide on the subtleties of grammar and word choice. Until you do so I am going to say that words that let you get around the defense offered by something all work. I.e. that beat, defeat, go through are all synonyms AND that if something always beats/defeats/goes through something that a synonym for that IS circumvents/by passes/ignores/ goes around.
Because they all mean the same thing, to wit they mean that the AR provides no function per se and all damage is applied immediately to the SDC. The only question being what SDC. Objects with nAR/rAR/vAR/etc have the SDC of the armored thing itself taking the damage, where as things with other "regular" AR have the SDC applied to the object protected. But in either case the AR itself as a thing which has any effect at all has been gone through or bypassed to get to that stage. This is because until you settle with the AR there isn't any damage to apply.
Roll to strike-->check AR-->once that step is done then and ONLY then can you move on to the 'roll damage' phase.

[Razorwing]

It sort of sounds like people are complaining that they aren't able to ignore an attack from someone who is as extraordinary as they are.

Super heroes are just as extraordinary as super villains... which means that they are just as likely to be able to strike someone that an ordinary individual can't. Heroes that use Natural AR powers shouldn't expect their resistance to damage to hold up when dealing with a villain with powers on their level... nor should villains be surprised by this... unless these individuals are not used to fighting others of their kind. If a hero is only fighting ordinary criminals... then he is likely to be surprised when he fights his first true super villain and that villain can land a strike that actually hurts him. Same is true of those villains who are normally only dealing with average cops... their first opponent of equal power and skill is going to be able to hurt them.

You see this in comics a lot... where a hero who is taking on gangs or mobsters in his neighbourhood and relies on his incredible resistance to damage (bullets bouncing off his metal form) to win the day now faces off against a super villain hired/created by his ordinary level enemies and learns the hard way that he isn't fighting the same mooks he was before. This opponent has skills and abilities comparable to his own... forcing him to either change his tactics (relying more on avoiding attacks) or be beaten senseless by someone who isn't as challenged by his metal form as a punk or a mobster normally is.

When fighting opponents of equal skill and power... one can't always rely on being able to resist damage due to high ARs... thus the need to actually learn to dodge or parry... or to have a ton of SDC to hopefully last until he can knock his opponent unconscious.

Heroes and villains are both extraordinary individuals. This creates a level playing field... where tactics and skill are more important that what powers one has. This has always been the nature of Palladium Games. Powers add a little extra flavor... but one shouldn't expect them to make your career as a Hero or a Villain a cake-walk.

Let's put in terms that are easy to understand... Do you expect a Samurai to be able to beat a Ninja (or vice versa) with ease... or do you expect such a duel to be somewhat in doubt as both are skilled warriors... possibly evenly matched in abilities (with unique strengths and weaknesses). This is what it is like with Heroes and Villains... they both have powers that put them on a level playing field where damage resistance such as Natural ARs won't decide who wins... it will be their skill, tactics and a little luck that will determine the winner.

One sided fights where one can't hurt his opponent are rarely fun for players... whether they are the one trying to hurt such an opponent... or where they are the one who can't be touched. Fair fights are so much more fun and challenging... for players and GM. Who really wants to go into a fight they know they can't loose or one they can't win?

[eliakon]

It sort of sounds like people are complaining that they aren't able to ignore an attack from someone who is as extraordinary as they are.

Super heroes are just as extraordinary as super villains... which means that they are just as likely to be able to strike someone that an ordinary individual can't. Heroes that use Natural AR powers shouldn't expect their resistance to damage to hold up when dealing with a villain with powers on their level... nor should villains be surprised by this... unless these individuals are not used to fighting others of their kind. If a hero is only fighting ordinary criminals... then he is likely to be surprised when he fights his first true super villain and that villain can land a strike that actually hurts him. Same is true of those villains who are normally only dealing with average cops... their first opponent of equal power and skill is going to be able to hurt them.

You see this in comics a lot... where a hero who is taking on gangs or mobsters in his neighbourhood and relies on his incredible resistance to damage (bullets bouncing off his metal form) to win the day now faces off against a super villain hired/created by his ordinary level enemies and learns the hard way that he isn't fighting the same mooks he was before. This opponent has skills and abilities comparable to his own... forcing him to either change his tactics (relying more on avoiding attacks) or be beaten senseless by someone who isn't as challenged by his metal form as a punk or a mobster normally is.

When fighting opponents of equal skill and power... one can't always rely on being able to resist damage due to high ARs... thus the need to actually learn to dodge or parry... or to have a ton of SDC to hopefully last until he can knock his opponent unconscious.

Heroes and villains are both extraordinary individuals. This creates a level playing field... where tactics and skill are more important that what powers one has. This has always been the nature of Palladium Games. Powers add a little extra flavor... but one shouldn't expect them to make your career as a Hero or a Villain a cake-walk.

Let's put in terms that are easy to understand... Do you expect a Samurai to be able to beat a Ninja (or vice versa) with ease... or do you expect such a duel to be somewhat in doubt as both are skilled warriors... possibly evenly matched in abilities (with unique strengths and weaknesses). This is what it is like with Heroes and Villains... they both have powers that put them on a level playing field where damage resistance such as Natural ARs won't decide who wins... it will be their skill, tactics and a little luck that will determine the winner.

One sided fights where one can't hurt his opponent are rarely fun for players... whether they are the one trying to hurt such an opponent... or where they are the one who can't be touched. Fair fights are so much more fun and challenging... for players and GM. Who really wants to go into a fight they know they can't loose or one they can't win?

The problem is that it makes it virtually impossible to play anything that ISNT a tank.
Since the demonstration character can get a good 6d6 hit on anyone... so all those people who foolishly decided to play vigilanties, or hardwares, or, mages, or psychics, or really any character at all that was stupid enough to be designed wear body armor instead of racking up huge personal pools of SDC is useless.
Literally useless.
If body armor is utterly pointless and provides no protection what so ever then it means that the only viable characters are those that can soak up the damage themselves or that can avoid ever being hit.
THAT is the problem. It's not that you face equal foes it's that the defenses offered to characters are utterly inadequate to actually provide any meaningful defense.

[Razorwing]

And how is dodging or parrying an attack not a viable defense strategy? Or how about actually using cover?

Body Armor isn't useless... it just shouldn't me a character's soul means of defense against an attack... especially against someone who is just as extraordinary as they are. It will work against all the mooks and minions one has to slog through to get to the Mastermind, but when you get to him, don't count on it to be as effective as it was against average people who were never a threat to you (while the Mastermind behind them is supposed to be one).

This game isn't always about who can hit harder, faster and more often than the other guy. There will actually *shock* be times when you have to out think your opponent rather than just beat him into the ground. Even the Invulnerable character that can't normally be harmed has to change his tactics when dealing with magic (one of the few things that can actually harm him).

If you look at comic books you tend to see this quite often to those who use armor. Against punks and minions, all the bullets they fire just bounce off characters like Iron Man and Colossus... but when those characters face off against someone like Juggernaut or Doctor Doom... their armored forms aren't quite as effective. Why? Because they are now facing off against someone as extraordinary as they are.

Then you have characters like Black Widow and Hawkeye... your "normal" vigilante types... who go up against the likes of Thanos and Abomination... beings they can't really hurt, yet still manage to take down by using tactics to get around the superior power of these opponents while avoiding their attacks. They aren't foolish enough to make themselves easy targets by standing their ground and hoping what little armor they might be wearing will protect them, but they will take cover and wait for an opportunity (or make their own opportunity) to strike in a way that is more effective.

I mean... what would the point of Iron Man facing off against Doctor Doom if neither could harm the other person's armor? At best, it would end in a stalemate as neither could get any kind of advantage on the other.

Armor is only one aspect to one's defenses. The ability to dodge or parry an attack is just as important. When going up against someone with powers equal to one's own (not to mention skill)... don't expect your armor to prevent damage as well as when you go up against someone with no powers and barely any combat skills.

We are talking about heroes/villains just as skilled, just as powerful as you are. Just as your example shows, one's opponent can be statted out with similar bonuses so that hitting you is just as easy as hitting them. It really depends on who or what you are facing as to how effective armor will be (and most armor powers do add SDC that will protect you when your Natural AR can't and you are unable to dodge/parry that incoming attack).

[eliakon]

And how is dodging or parrying an attack not a viable defense strategy? Or how about actually using cover?

Body Armor isn't useless... it just shouldn't me a character's soul means of defense against an attack... especially against someone who is just as extraordinary as they are.

Well armor is rather nice for someone who, for example is, oh I don't know trying to build a mage, or a psychic who isn't ALSO amazingly a master swords man. You will note that the same bonus to strike that makes their body armor useless also makes parrying and dodging impossible for most people.
Which is why they put on armor. So that they have a chance to survive an attack or two so that they get to do something.
But in palladium that was a fools errand since their body armor (and defensive spells, and psionic shields...) all got bypassed by the level 2 guy.

It will work against all the mooks and minions one has to slog through to get to the Mastermind, but when you get to him, don't count on it to be as effective as it was against average people who were never a threat to you (while the Mastermind behind them is supposed to be one).

LOL. This IS just a 'minion'
This is a level two base character that is doing the thwacking here.
This isn't some high level raid boss. This is the sort of thing that a group can reasonably expect to see in their first adventure out.
Unless your games use level 2 characters as the Masterminds I guess.

This game isn't always about who can hit harder, faster and more often than the other guy. There will actually *shock* be times when you have to out think your opponent rather than just beat him into the ground. Even the Invulnerable character that can't normally be harmed has to change his tactics when dealing with magic (one of the few things that can actually harm him).

Yeah it would be nice to think that you can do that.
It really would.
It would be nice to think that you can build a character that can survive the game if you don't build a tank. And if you and your GM have a nice long talk and the GM agrees to change the combat system from the one written into something that will support a more thinking style of play... if the GM agrees to a 'truce' against fighting and promises to make sure that there will be puzzles and that it will be about solving it can work. But in the game as written? Yeah there is this really big tendency for bad guys to try and beat up on you, and for people to solve things with super brawls.

If you look at comic books you tend to see this quite often to those who use armor. Against punks and minions, all the bullets they fire just bounce off characters like Iron Man and Colossus... but when those characters face off against someone like Juggernaut or Doctor Doom... their armored forms aren't quite as effective. Why? Because they are now facing off against someone as extraordinary as they are.
Then you have characters like Black Widow and Hawkeye... your "normal" vigilante types... who go up against the likes of Thanos and Abomination... beings they can't really hurt, yet still manage to take down by using tactics to get around the superior power of these opponents while avoiding their attacks. They aren't foolish enough to make themselves easy targets by standing their ground and hoping what little armor they might be wearing will protect them, but they will take cover and wait for an opportunity (or make their own opportunity) to strike in a way that is more effective.

Ummm okay.
You realize that none of that has the slightest relevance. NONE? I really hate to break it to you, but this is Heroes Unlimited we are talking about here, not Marvel Super Heroes. The Heroes Unlimited game system doesn't work that way. This isn't a comic book, you can't replicate the comic books with out a lot of GM hand waving. And if you ARE hand waving then that really doesn't do a darn thing to demonstrate that the rules work does it. No seriously. This is a discussion about how the mechanics of HU work. Talking about how comic book writers plot out their highly contrived stories has no relevance in the slightest. No one in a comic book has to make a skill roll. Everyone does exactly what the plot needs them to, exactly when the plot needs them to, no more no less. In a game that would be called "railroading" and is usually seen as one of the worst crimes a GM can commit. So I don't really think it is a good example of how to make a game great,

I mean... what would the point of Iron Man facing off against Doctor Doom if neither could harm the other person's armor? At best, it would end in a stalemate as neither could get any kind of advantage on the other.

Armor is only one aspect to one's defenses. The ability to dodge or parry an attack is just as important. When going up against someone with powers equal to one's own (not to mention skill)... don't expect your armor to prevent damage as well as when you go up against someone with no powers and barely any combat skills.

We are talking about heroes/villains just as skilled, just as powerful as you are. Just as your example shows, one's opponent can be statted out with similar bonuses so that hitting you is just as easy as hitting them. It really depends on who or what you are facing as to how effective armor will be (and most armor powers do add SDC that will protect you when your Natural AR can't and you are unable to dodge/parry that incoming attack).

I see you REALLY DONT GET IT DO YOU. Let me spell it out.

No everyone is NOT "just as skilled, just as powerful as you are" In theory everyone will be different. The whole POINT of my example though was that the level two opponent renders entire character types virtually unplayable. Why? Because they CAN'T dodge, or parry that attack, and with the AR rules as written nor can they ever soak it in any way shape or form. That level two person is going to hit them, and do damage to their personal SDC/HP with every single hit. Which means that unless that wizard, or psychic, or gadgeteer, or hunter, or the like spends a huge chunk of their skills on physical skills (which means that they are not being allowed to build what THEY want but that they HAVE to build) two or three hits and they are out of the fight possibly one if the guy has the 6d6 sword and rolls well. THAT is what I am saying is the problem with the AR system.
It makes it so that suddenly to survive, unless you have a special pact with your GM about how the game will be run, that you HAVE to have giant SDC/HP pools, or have armor with n/v/rAR, or have defenses high enough to handle attackers with +10 or better to strike. And that sort of radically narrows down what sorts of characters are viable.

[Razorwing]

Let's see... your 2nd level combat oriented Magical Weapon character meant make ARs useless going up against a Mage or Psychic character.

Well off hand, I doubt they would be relying on armor to begin with... but let's start with the Psychic. First of all.. I am going to assume a Natural Psychic as only those with Super Psychic powers are likely to confront such a character head on. Already I can see many powers that would more or less reduce the effectiveness of such a maxed out character... without the need for Armor. Bio-Manipulation is very effective... with most inflicting -3 to -9 to strike penalties. Invisible Haze would make it hard for that character to see and strike the Psychic... also inflicting a penalty to strike. Telekinesis can be incredibly effective... can't strike a person with a sword if one is being held in the air out of range (more or less neutralizing the PP, magic weapon, Hand to Hand, and WP bonuses to strike). Both Telekinetic Force Field and Psychic Body Field can provide extra SDC protection, making it harder for this combat character to deal damage to them. Steal Skills could strip the combat character of vital training (the Hand to Hand Martial Arts and/or the WP skill) and give them to the Psychic (who, at 2nd level will retain them for 10 minutes). Combine with body armor, a psychic with any or all of these abilities could more or less shut down your 2nd level combat character easily and their armor wouldn't be useless. And this doesn't even take into account any combat skills they already have.

As for mages, a mage is going to have quite a few spells that can hinder your combat character that can make any armor they have not as useless as you claim. Again, I will limit myself to what a 2nd level character is likely to know... (4 spells from each lvl 1-4 and 8 total spells from levels 5-10).
Level 1 Spells: Blinding Flash and Cloud of Smoke are very effective in reducing your character's bonus to strike (-5 each... -10 combined).
Level 2 Spells: Befuddle and Darkness can also reduce your character's strike bonus while Chameleon ca make it difficult for your character to find the mage (can't effectively strike what one can't clearly see, yes?).
Level 3 Spells: Armor of Ithan means that the mage can create his own armor (though there is debate as to whether the AR on this spell is natural or not); Invisibility: Simple allows the character to fight while invisible... making your strikes very hard to land; Paralysis Lesser can be quite devastating to your character... depending on which limb is affected (how can you swing that sword if your arm can't move?).
Level 4 Spells: Blind is a good one against your character, as would Carpet of Adhesion or Magic Net and even Charismatic Aura may prove useful (why would you strike someone you trust?) while Energy Field can provide extra protection and Multiple Image makes it hard to tell which image to hit, then disappear with Shadow Meld.
Level 5 Spells: Charm and Sleep can be surprisingly effective while Circle of Flame can make it difficult to get at the mage... and even Horrific Illusion can make your character think twice about attacking the mage.
Level 6 Spells: Mystic Shield, like Energy Field can add a little more protection to the mage.
Level 7 Spells:Invisibility: Superior can make it hard to find the character, but it can't be maintained if the mage attacks; Life Drain can weaken and reduce your character's speed and attacks by half for the duration (4 melee rounds).
Level 8 Spells: Love Charm can be particularly nasty against your character... while Wisps of Confusion can confuse and debilitate him (reducing his strike bonus).
Level 9 Spells: Age is a particularly debilitating spell; Havoc could play... well... havoc with your character; Speed of the Snail will eliminate your speed advantage nicely (or at least reduce it).

Now, it is unlikely that a 2nd level mage will have all of these spells... but he is likely to have at least a few of them... especially the lower level ones. Many of these spells will reduce your strike bonus... making the Armor or Ithan Spell (with its AR 18) a significantly less useless... especially when combining effects.

Even tech heroes will have gimmicks such as flash grenades and other items that can debilitate a character like yours, reducing your strike bonus with penalties, making it less likely that you will get past their artificial armor. Even others with extraordinary powers can have abilities that make high strike bonuses less effective... and when combined with Armoring powers, the AR they have isn't as useless as you think. Even with spell casting times (depending which you use), a mage will likely get a few of these off before your character does serious damage to them.

Like I said... tactics and combining abilities can be far more effective than just slugging it out without any strategy... and your combat optimized character may not be quite as effective as you believe when going against these characters.

[eliakon]

Let's see... your 2nd level combat oriented Magical Weapon character meant make ARs useless going up against a Mage or Psychic character.

Well off hand, I doubt they would be relying on armor to begin with... but let's start with the Psychic. First of all.. I am going to assume a Natural Psychic as only those with Super Psychic powers are likely to confront such a character head on. Already I can see many powers that would more or less reduce the effectiveness of such a maxed out character... without the need for Armor. Bio-Manipulation is very effective... with most inflicting -3 to -9 to strike penalties. Invisible Haze would make it hard for that character to see and strike the Psychic... also inflicting a penalty to strike. Telekinesis can be incredibly effective... can't strike a person with a sword if one is being held in the air out of range (more or less neutralizing the PP, magic weapon, Hand to Hand, and WP bonuses to strike). Both Telekinetic Force Field and Psychic Body Field can provide extra SDC protection, making it harder for this combat character to deal damage to them. Steal Skills could strip the combat character of vital training (the Hand to Hand Martial Arts and/or the WP skill) and give them to the Psychic (who, at 2nd level will retain them for 10 minutes). Combine with body armor, a psychic with any or all of these abilities could more or less shut down your 2nd level combat character easily and their armor wouldn't be useless. And this doesn't even take into account any combat skills they already have.

As for mages, a mage is going to have quite a few spells that can hinder your combat character that can make any armor they have not as useless as you claim. Again, I will limit myself to what a 2nd level character is likely to know... (4 spells from each lvl 1-4 and 8 total spells from levels 5-10).
Level 1 Spells: Blinding Flash and Cloud of Smoke are very effective in reducing your character's bonus to strike (-5 each... -10 combined).
Level 2 Spells: Befuddle and Darkness can also reduce your character's strike bonus while Chameleon ca make it difficult for your character to find the mage (can't effectively strike what one can't clearly see, yes?).
Level 3 Spells: Armor of Ithan means that the mage can create his own armor (though there is debate as to whether the AR on this spell is natural or not); Invisibility: Simple allows the character to fight while invisible... making your strikes very hard to land; Paralysis Lesser can be quite devastating to your character... depending on which limb is affected (how can you swing that sword if your arm can't move?).
Level 4 Spells: Blind is a good one against your character, as would Carpet of Adhesion or Magic Net and even Charismatic Aura may prove useful (why would you strike someone you trust?) while Energy Field can provide extra protection and Multiple Image makes it hard to tell which image to hit, then disappear with Shadow Meld.
Level 5 Spells: Charm and Sleep can be surprisingly effective while Circle of Flame can make it difficult to get at the mage... and even Horrific Illusion can make your character think twice about attacking the mage.
Level 6 Spells: Mystic Shield, like Energy Field can add a little more protection to the mage.
Level 7 Spells:Invisibility: Superior can make it hard to find the character, but it can't be maintained if the mage attacks; Life Drain can weaken and reduce your character's speed and attacks by half for the duration (4 melee rounds).
Level 8 Spells: Love Charm can be particularly nasty against your character... while Wisps of Confusion can confuse and debilitate him (reducing his strike bonus).
Level 9 Spells: Age is a particularly debilitating spell; Havoc could play... well... havoc with your character; Speed of the Snail will eliminate your speed advantage nicely (or at least reduce it).

Now, it is unlikely that a 2nd level mage will have all of these spells... but he is likely to have at least a few of them... especially the lower level ones. Many of these spells will reduce your strike bonus... making the Armor or Ithan Spell (with its AR 18) a significantly less useless... especially when combining effects.

Even tech heroes will have gimmicks such as flash grenades and other items that can debilitate a character like yours, reducing your strike bonus with penalties, making it less likely that you will get past their artificial armor. Even others with extraordinary powers can have abilities that make high strike bonuses less effective... and when combined with Armoring powers, the AR they have isn't as useless as you think. Even with spell casting times (depending which you use), a mage will likely get a few of these off before your character does serious damage to them.

Like I said... tactics and combining abilities can be far more effective than just slugging it out without any strategy... and your combat optimized character may not be quite as effective as you believe when going against these characters.

I see. I am completely wrong It is obvious that no one could possibly ever have a need or for armor, that there is no possible way that anyone would ever in any way, shape or form ever have the slightest risk of ever being attacked by surprise or from behind or in anyway but in a 10x10 foot room after getting to raise all of their defenses and cast what ever debuffs they want first. And that thus the uselessness of that armor is thus obviously totally irrelevant to actual game play and should be ignored as a totally spurious hypothetical problem that can never show up in any possible play.
Totally my mistake I beg your pardon I thought this was about games where people might actually want armor. My mistake, I will bow out now

[Razorwing]

Armor isn't useless... but it isn't a perfect defense either.

The point you seem to willfully ignore is that Heroes, as extraordinary individuals are going up against villains that are just as extraordinary as they are. These individuals will be just as capable of dealing with your abilities as you are able to deal with theirs. I know it may be shocking that someone may be just as capable of harming your character as you are at harming theirs... but that's the point of the game... providing a level playing field where you can actually win or even loose a fight.

As I showed you, mages and psychics have ways of dealing with your twink's high strike bonus that more or less eliminates it and makes any armor they may have less useless... but instead of conceding the point, you choose to mock it by trying to stack the deck in your favor with ambushes (which psychics may see coming... danger sense) and which many smart heroes will anticipate by layering their defenses.

Simply put, Palladium makes it so that there is no "I WIN" power... people actually have to do something you seem unwilling to do... THINK THOUGH A PROBLEM.

I can only think of two other solutions to the problem.

1) allow ARs to go above 19/20... which leads to the possibility that someone will create an armor that no one can damage... no matter how high their strike bonus gets (take the highest possible bonus from skills, stats and powers... and add 20).

2) have AR apply to just the natural roll of the die... which again, makes strike bonuses worthless and makes any power that has an AR a potential "I WIN" button.

Neither of these choices are any better than what we have... and in many ways are a lot worse... as no matter how skilled or exceptional you may be... you will never be good enough to take on these individuals, so why bother being a hero (or a villain)?

[dreicunan]

When we were playing in sdc environments we always played that you needed to make a called attack to hit anything other than the main body, so if you weren't making one then even a crit didn't bypass armor. If you were trying to bypass it, then you took the appropriate penalties and applied the appropriate bonuses.

[drewkitty ~..~]

When we were playing in sdc environments we always played that you needed to make a called attack to hit anything other than the main body, so if you weren't making one then even a crit didn't bypass armor. If you were trying to bypass it, then you took the appropriate penalties and applied the appropriate bonuses.

Note that most of the people here in this subject are omitting the 'natural' from the talk about 'natural AR'. Don't ask me 'why' cause the answer I would give would upset people, cause I would be blunt about it, and feelings might be hurt. And we are not really suppose to be commenting about the poster no matter how infuriating or annoying their own comments are.
(side-note: I don't like it that the canon books don't talk about which AR they are talking about ether in the main text section.)

Armor with a Natural AR can not be bypassed, even with targeted strikes. The strike only damages the SDC if the roll is over the NAR score.
Body armor with normal AR can be bypassed. And Is by passed automatically if the strike roll is over the AR score.

So, I take it you are saying that your group's house rule is that chars can try to by pass the armor of a Robot to damage the mechanisms inside the bot by use of a called shot? (using R-AR example cause the OP was about R-AR.)

[eliakon]

When we were playing in sdc environments we always played that you needed to make a called attack to hit anything other than the main body, so if you weren't making one then even a crit didn't bypass armor. If you were trying to bypass it, then you took the appropriate penalties and applied the appropriate bonuses.

Note that most of the people here in this subject are omitting the 'natural' from the talk about 'natural AR'. Don't ask me 'why' cause the answer I would give would upset people, cause I would be blunt about it, and feelings might be hurt. And we are not really suppose to be commenting about the poster no matter how infuriating or annoying their own comments are.
(side-note: I don't like it that the canon books don't talk about which AR they are talking about ether in the main text section.)

Natural AR can not be bypassed, even with targeted strikes. The strike only damages the SDC if the roll is over the NAR score.
normal AR (AKA as Body armor AR) can be bypassed. And Is by passed automatically if the strike roll is over the AR score.

So, I take it you are saying that your group's house rule is that chars can try to by pass the armor of a Robot to damage the mechanisms inside the bot by use of a called shot? (using R-AR example cause the OP was about R-AR.)

You do know that the definition of the word "bypassed" means "to pass by with out effect"
So unless you can cite a game effect that nAR provides to a subject if you roll above it (by book and page please) then yes, by definition it has by definition been bypassed.

I would not normally be this pedantic about it, but when you come in and try and be pendantic about it to use your personal definitions so that you can try and prove that everyone else is wrong for USEING THE DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS OF A WORD then yes, I will get pedantic.

[drewkitty ~..~]

An armor with a Natural AR can not be bypassed. No mater if it is natural armor with a N-AR, or a Robotic Armor with a R-AR, or vehicular armor with V-AR.
Yes, I did leave out that the N-AR was attached to an ARMOR.

And now I have edited that post to fix it.

[eliakon]

An armor with a Natural AR can not be bypassed. No mater if it is natural armor with a N-AR, or a Robotic Armor with a R-AR, or vehicular armor with V-AR.
Yes, I did leave out that the N-AR was attached to an ARMOR.

And now I have edited that post to fix it.

Ahh, now your talking about something totally different. After all not all nAR is on armor (in fact as far as I am aware, there is exactly one suit of non-living armor in the entire canon with nAR that works this way and that one is the ultra rare Antorian Diamond Armor), that is why it is called natural after all, it is generally the natural armor of a being.

Now moving on to your claim...
You have a book/page for this? I ask because I have never seen a rule that says that one can not take a called shot to try and take a shot to hit parts of being not covered by their armor if that armor has a nAR...
...but I HAVE seen discussions about using called shots to do exactly that... so I am really confused. Because I am not sure why I would be unable to take an aimed shot at someone in a vest of Antorian Diamond Armor (nAR 12) and try and shoot their head, or hand, or leg, or thigh, or... well anything that is not under the vest? Which is another way of saying "Make a called shot to bypass their armor." which seems to me to be a totally legal use of the called shot rules as written. Now if you have a citation that says that it is not legal I am all ears...

Now I will grant that on a normal shot do anything other than damage the armor, but that is not the same thing at all.

[The Artist Formerly]

i would agree with Eliakon's position on this. Standard (body) armor has proven mostly useless in game play, even against very low ability/threat level badguys. I've ended combats where my character is all beat up and his body armor is in near pristine condition (like new except for my blood stains).

D20 roll to strike, average 10. Give an antagonist a revolver, and proficiency with the weapon, that's a +4 to strike. So we need a AR of 14 to match that, assuming average events. And that's for a single semi-skilled bad guy with an old gun. Literally a mook.

As we move up to battle more skilled opponents, as Eliakon's build shows, standard armors quickly becomes useless.

[Saitou Hajime]

i would agree with Eliakon's position on this. Standard (body) armor has proven mostly useless in game play, even against very low ability/threat level badguys. I've ended combats where my character is all beat up and his body armor is in near pristine condition (like new except for my blood stains).

D20 roll to strike, average 10. Give an antagonist a revolver, and proficiency with the weapon, that's a +4 to strike. So we need a AR of 14 to match that, assuming average events. And that's for a single semi-skilled bad guy with an old gun. Literally a mook.

As we move up to battle more skilled opponents, as Eliakon's build shows, standard armors quickly becomes useless.

Always a Beef of Mine, which is why I in the past played so much Rifts, where it didn't matter.

[Hunterrose]

In real life, if you get shot while wearing a bullet proof vest, you will still have a high chance of serious injury and/or death. So I agree with the view that Body Armor shouldn't be a catchall defense.

But from what I can see in this discussion, the big thing that isn't being addressed (and forgive me if I missed something) is that the GM's should be designing scenarios and campaigns to suit their players.

I don't think Hardware or Physical Training characters are "unplayable" but they also shouldn't be put in the same situations as the more fantastical characters.

Using the examples given above, Hawkeye should NEVER be in combat with Thanos. That's ludicrous. Often times I think A-List characters (ie- sell a lot of books) like Batman, Punisher, Wolverine get put in A-List stories (ie- Epic and fantastical) but that's a conceit due to their popularity, not actually due to their skills or powerlevel.

If you look at the types of threats that street level defenders (Punisher, Daredevil, Luke Cage, even Wolverine) normally confront, they're usually up against other street level threats. Their BIG BADS threaten neighborhoods, not planets.

eliakon indicates that this requires some "special pact" between the players and GM. And to that I would agree and disagree.
Yes, there should be an agreement between players and GMs about what type of game you are playing together, but no, this isn't something special, it should be common sense established at the beginning of a campaign.

[Razorwing]

I never did understand the whole Aimed and Wild shot difference they try to describe... it seems counter intuitive.

They say that a aimed shot takes time to aim and fire... yet claim that one can do so as many times as they have attacks. In other words, Aiming takes no time.

By contrast, shooting wild should happen much faster since one isn't bothering to aim... yet shooting wild takes up 2 or 3 attacks per wild shot (and if an automatic weapon, uses up one's ammo clip).

In effect, one is taking longer to fire without aiming than one does while aiming... shouldn't it be the other way around?

This is why I changed things around in my games. It takes 1 action to line up an aimed shot before one fires... and one can't be moving while doing so (this includes dodging or parrying an incoming attack). For those with the Sniper skill, one can aim for an entire melee round (using up all actions save for the last action to fire) so that the shot they make automatically does critical damage to HP if it hits (exceeds any AR... natural or otherwise)... but again, they can not move while doing so... not even to dodge or parry an incoming attack. Of course if one is hit while aiming (even in armor, taking a bullet will hurt unless the armor acts as natural), again the shot is ruined. Aiming in the middle of a battle is very difficult.

By contrast, shooting wild is a lot easier... since one is merely pulling the trigger while pointing it in the general direction of the target. Of course, without aiming the shot will not be that accurate... and is very much just a straight roll... no bonus to strike for one who knows how to use a gun (-6 to strike for those who don't). When, running, driving or otherwise doing anything other than standing still... the best one can do is a wild shot.

I find that this greatly changes the scope of how armor can help protect users... especially when up against mooks where their only real tactic is to fill an area with as many bullets as possible as quickly as they can and hope the shear volume of shots does what a few well placed shots could have done... Shooting the pip vs. American-Style shooting (as Allen Quartermain [played by Sean Connery] put it in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen). In this way, most thugs that heroes will be going up against will, at best be shooting wild... using up a lot of bullets (but hitting little with them)... while a smart hero with armor will choose his shots carefully, aiming when he can, to better effect... quality vs. quantity.

You see this a lot, especially with heroes like Batman, who will make himself into a target in one area, so that the thugs fire at that area while he dives for cover in the shadows where they loose sight of him... giving him time to get into another position to attack from surprise... sometimes with an aimed shot. He'll even fill an area with smoke to prevent anyone from getting a good aim on him (reducing everyone to wild shots with guns)... all the while using special optics and sensors to see through the darkness or smoke, allowing him to attack without penalty.

Armor alone isn't a great defense. Armor, plus tactics to maximize one's own bonuses and minimize an opponent's is always a better strategy.