Plastic surgery and the PB stat

[The Artist Formerly]

Just out of curiosity how do you guys handle that?

The physical Beauty stat is just that, no personality or personal charisma, just straight up physical attractiveness. I've always figured that most characters could add up to 3 points to PB, with some super powers (such as the healing factor types) precluding that. And characters who have artificial bodies (Borgs and endoskeleton types) could simply set the stat as high as 20 (drawing from robot rules in the core book).

Thoughts?

[eliakon]

In the realm of house rules?
I have long sense discarded the PB stat and gone with a described appearance for my games. This solves issues like "But they are the wrong race/gender/species/class/social status/what ever how could I think they look good?"

In the books I believe there is mention of surgical alterations to beauty though I can't recall where off hand (since as I said, I have not used the stat for years)

[Bill]

I'm not aware of canon rules for improving beauty through surgery, though there probably ought to be. Even the Rifts Bionics Sourcebook, which specifically includes cosmetic implants, only has negative modifiers for being disfigured by replacing your parts with machines.

If I were going to house rule it, I'd let a surgeon add 1D4 to PB per -15% penalty applied to the skill roll before it is made; and on a failed roll subtract an equal amount. So a perfectly skilled surgeon (98%; very expensive) could attempt to improve a character's appearance by 3D4 by taking a -45% penalty. If she rolls over 53%, the character loses that amount and may be a disfigured horror show!

[Sir_Spirit]

No offense, but those rules seem arbitrary/punative to me.

Easier to just say, it's easy for surgeons to remove penalties/negatives to ones appearance. To make you more symmetrical, to do a skin tuck, or remove a wart/mole/scar/etc than it is to improve upon a base. There is an upper limit to what they can do.
Thus it's easy to get your PB up to 9-12(average), but trying to get it from 16-20 is harder/more expensive and time consuming.
There is a certain amount of diminishing returns.

[Bill]

No offense, but nobody asked you. I think they're fun, and that matters a lot more than if they make sense.

[Sir_Spirit]

No offense, but nobody asked you..

Well, ask me darnit!

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would guess for surgery it would depend on the surgeon.

Genetic engineering….
AUGG page 144, increased attributes.

[The Artist Formerly]

I would guess for surgery it would depend on the surgeon.

Genetic engineering….
AUGG page 144, increased attributes.

Those get a little out of hand, moving into the realm of better then human, less then super human. Though it does make for an interesting story idea.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just out of curiosity how do you guys handle that?

The physical Beauty stat is just that, no personality or personal charisma, just straight up physical attractiveness. I've always figured that most characters could add up to 3 points to PB, with some super powers (such as the healing factor types) precluding that. And characters who have artificial bodies (Borgs and endoskeleton types) could simply set the stat as high as 20 (drawing from robot rules in the core book).

Thoughts?

I think up to three points, works. If it takes you over 15 you don't get the additional die though. A skilled doctor and plastic surgeon, could likely pull that off. I'd add in some penalties here or there depending on scarring or... just a butt ugly. For ease I'd say 1D4. So that gives you the possibility of +4 but it's not ensured. Between 1-4 is ok.

if the medicine roll is failed, I'd say -2D4 from the base stat.

Good plastic surgery can look ok, and can be (almost)indistinguishable.

BAD Plastic surgery, is BAD and you can tell it from a ways off.

TOO MUCH Plastic Surgery is even worse. I wouldn't let the bonus from it exceed 4 points. The other proceedures just 'polish the gem' not actually make it better. I'd start taking points off after the second or third plastic surgery. (Though really who RP's that sort of thing?)

[Pepsi Jedi]

In the realm of house rules?
I have long sense discarded the PB stat and gone with a described appearance for my games. This solves issues like "But they are the wrong race/gender/species/class/social status/what ever how could I think they look good?"

In the books I believe there is mention of surgical alterations to beauty though I can't recall where off hand (since as I said, I have not used the stat for years)

This is addressed in canon. Aliens unlimited page 8 addresses it.

In short, the 'PB stat in palladium is based on HUMAN perceptions of Beauty and what is attractive and or ugly. It also stipulates that attractiveness need not be sexual attractiveness.

Someone can look at a tiger and go "That's a beautiful animal" and not want to bed down with it and have sex. Likewise someone like ... Matt Damon or Brad Pitt or ScarJo or Jennifer Lawrence for example, can be recognized as being beautiful, even if you're not sexually attracted to that gender. I'm a firmly hetero male but I can look at mat Damon or Jason Mamoa and be like 'Dayum.... that's a good looking dude".

So there's no real issue with "But they are the wrong race/gender/species/class/social status/whatever. "

If you don't find green girls sexually attractive that's fine, but the PB stat dictates how attractive they are to humans (in general). So while you might not want to make green babies with her, you can still acknowledge her beauty, just like you can appreciate the beauty of a tiger or a wolf or something.

There's also a note that among the aliens or other species that humans might seem hideous but another.. Octoman for example might have SEXY tenticals.

~~

As a player I understand that beauty is subjective. Some people find Julia Roberts to be beautiful. I think she looks like a horse. Cameron Diez, some people think she's hot. She's made millions based on it. I think she looks like a halibut. Objective beauty is a thing. It's just not easily protrayed by Rp Stats.

In this case physical beauty is a generalized stat.

Sort of like MA. What some people find charming, I might find annoying as hell. What I think is charming, other people might find infuriating. Such things are subjective, but as a role playing game is an 'imperfect ruleset' trying to grasp the complexity of life and such, it's an imperfect translation. Thus stats like PB and MA and such are defined as social or species norms, vs individualistic preference. Some people find Charlie Sheen, charming or witty.
I think he's a frigging skeezeball.

To allow for rules and a game system to flow, the system gives stats for PB and for MA. it's part of the game.

[Shadowknight]

Surgery is dangerous specially plastic surgery. I wouldn't have a problem with a character that has a P.B between 3-11 pts having P.S to fix it such an operation could increase the stats by +2d4 if successful. Since it would mostly be fixing defect of nature, accidents or damage. Then there's characters who have a P.B 12-17 who wants to increase it further, those I would double the chance of a failure and it would increase the stat by +1d4 if successful but by -1d6 if the surgery failed. Characters with P.B of 18 or higher can only be increased their P.B by 1d2 pts if successful and I would triple the chance of failure. In a same manner a failure would cause them to lose -1d4 to P.B.

Having said all of this there's such a thing as recovery time, this is time spent in a hospital or at home where the character can't go adventuring with his teammates. Which depending on the type of P.S can vary from 3 wks to a couple of months. While team members might be sympathetic to a character with a P.B of 3-8 wanting to improve his or her looks, most team members aren't going to be sympathetic to someone with P.B of 14+ doing so and being unable to help the team when they're fighting Dr Destroyer because they want to be able to pick up women easier.

Lets not forget certain powers which might make getting plastic surgery almost impossible. Invulnerability would stop all attempts of performing P.S short of using magic scalpels, sutures, ect. But on the plus you would recover between 50% & 75% faster. All enhance healing or regeneration type abilities would double chances of failure due to the surgeon having to rush to complete the surgery before the regeneration kicks in. Lets not forget you now have at least 5 people (surgery team) who can make a reasonable guess to your identity as a superhero. This opens a door to blackmail, leaks to the press or national enquirer type exposes. Then there's the Alter Physical types of powers, while they won't stop the operation as long as you're in your human form. What happens because you heal faster in your altered form you decide to go adventuring? The staples and the sutures might fall or burn off specially if you have powers like APS Energy, Light, Fire, Plasma, Water, Air, Smoke then what? At the very least the P.B increase hadn't had time to set so no increase gained, must redo the operation. More likely than not you'll suffer from infections, loss of P.B and the general public knowing you went through a P.S

Finally if anyone has paid attention to the news the walking ken doll now has problem breathing due to his extensive use of P.S on his face. It's perfectly reasonable something similar could happens to a SH who goes against doctors orders and adventuring before the allotted time to rest is complete.

[Hunterrose]

Just out of curiosity, Are any other discussions on the actual in game usage of PB and MA.
I know there are some Rifters that codify some of the Charm and Seduce and Intimidate skills, but they seem a little more unweildly than I would like to deal with.

[Killer Cyborg]

When crafting robots, "Sculpted Facial Features" costs $150,000, and can give the robot a PB of 3 to 20.

I'd say offhand that if you can't make a robot with PB higher than 20, then you probably can't plastic surgery somebody to have a PB higher than 20 either.

Other than that, I think it's very dependent on the GM and the character in question.
There should be some description of why the character's PB is what it already is, and how it could be improved.

[Incriptus]

For what it's worth, myy Super Soldier with an Exoskeleton Replacement (PU2) says that with his Cosmetic Disguise the P.B. Attribute can be adjusted up or down by 8 points

[Vincent Takeda]

Also pretty sure the eugenics section of powers2 says their genetics can be rewritten in a way that raises any stat to 24. If we're talking about rifts instead, the gene splicers I think can go even higher than that, but as Mordo says.. the cost is high.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Don't forget the Uncanny valley. If you mess too much with something like human appearance, it's VERY easy to notice.

You can add a little bit.. or take a little bit away. No big deal.
Straighten a broken nose. Sure.
Even a nose job. Sure.
A bit of lipo sure.

No big deal. People aren't going to do double takes at you walking down the street.

But Surgeons can't just manifest from nothing.

If a woman goes from A cup breasts to FFF Cups, she's going to look freakish.

If someone starts out at app 3 (Just for an example) The type of ugly that people throw shoes at, to gain their attention or vomit a little in their mouth when they see them, Plastic surgery isn't going to take them up to Scar Jo, or J-Law appearance level. You might get them up to 6 or 7. So they're the lower end of average but if you go more than just a few steps it's going to look fake and plastic.

If someone gets 'too pretty' or 'too generic' or something, the mind trips when you see them. It registers as 'alien' and that's when you're dipping into the uncanny valley. The human mind/eye have developed for hundreds of thousands of years to pick out faces and at a distance. it's why special forces use face cammo to break up the 'lines' of the human face. If you put a picture of a bird, at 100 yards, it's going to just look like a blob to most people, but if you take a head shot of someone and put it at that distance the person will go "That's a picture of someone's face" Works in foilage and brush and obscured things too. you might not know details but you can pick out the shape of a human face way off. Like wise when close if someone's had a bunch of plastic surgery, it's easy to spot too. Even "good' plastic surgery can be spotted if you just look. Most people think Jessica Biel looks pretty. I agree. She does, but take one glance at her and you know that's not the nose she was born with.

[Coffee Zombie]

I would limit plastic surgery to improving PB by 1 point per surgery (it takes multiple rounds), and it would cap out at a net 4 points overall, and a limit of 16 possible through plastic surgery results. Those above 16 PB naturally can have certain features enhanced, but it doesn't actually raise the PB - a good way to simulate the tendency of certain Hollywood actress to get plastic surgery done and come out looking no better at all - sometimes people just think they need a certain look, and will pay for it, and the surgeon has a financial interest in saying "oh sure, this will make you look better".

You still have the same bone structure in the beginning to work from. As well, each surgery, the plastic surgeon needs to roll his/her surgery skill, and failures can decrease PB or cause injuries. It's can really go awful in a hurry if done poorly or mistakes are made, and there's a reason Hollywood super stars go to the best surgeons.

This doesn't touch on reducing PB loss due to aging, which can actually have some decent returns, because the Palladium system doesn't really have rules for this. I would also note that people who get plastic surgery then typically avoid getting into brawls and combat trauma, as some of these procedures have a lasting effect on the body. It depends on the surgery, but the GM could rule a permanent reduction to SDC for certain procedures overall.

[Sambot]

I would think that there should be two rolls. One to see if the Doctor did the surgery successfully or not. The other would be the patient's reaction to the surgery, especially if the surgery wasn't done to correct a problem. For example, fixing a cleft lip general improves the patient's appearance. A lip implant though could go either way. The bonuses would then be tied into how well the rolls were. You'd need both rolls to be successful to get a bonus.

I also wouldn't limit the bonus to just PB but also to MA since a lot of plastic surgeries are done so people feel better about themselves. Other people could see them as beautiful but they're not going to believe it without that surgery. Once they have it they feel a lot better about themselves if if it doesn't really make them more beautiful to others. In cases like this I would think that any bonuses should go to MA first. Then to PB.

As for skills, there's a magic OCC called the Fleshscultpor in WB3 that could be adapted as a Plastic Surgeon with spells becoming skills and so on. There's also some skills for increasing beauty in at least one of the Rifters. Possibly more.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Likewise someone like ... Matt Damon or Brad Pitt or ScarJo or Jennifer Lawrence for example, can be recognized as being beautiful, even if you're not sexually attracted to that gender. I'm a firmly hetero male but I can look at mat Damon or Jason Mamoa and be like 'Dayum.... that's a good looking dude".

So there's no real issue with "But they are the wrong race/gender/species/class/social status/whatever. "

If you don't find green girls sexually attractive that's fine, but the PB stat dictates how attractive they are to humans (in general). So while you might not want to make green babies with her, you can still acknowledge her beauty, just like you can appreciate the beauty of a tiger or a wolf or something.

This actually came up in conversation the other day. It's about aesthetics, not sexual attraction.