Ever have a GM disallow a power, you wanted, because...

[SittingBull]

it was too weak to take?

[Bill]

Not an excuse I've used. I usually throw an extra power at people that are running under the power level I want rather than shoot down what they want.

[Nightmask]

Not in Heroes Unlimited (haven't gotten to play a super-heroes game using it to date) but had a GM reject Catalytic Control (basically the ability to control chemical reactions, although you have to develop each type of reaction like slowing corrosion separately) because in spite of not banning it as an option during development decided it was 'too powerful' because he wasn't sure what all it could do supposedly. Even though the other players were running powerhouses with his 'GM's friend' having the max number of powers possible (only a 2% chance of that happening) and could take out the Hulk without much difficulty.

[Grell]

As a general rule, I don't allow content from the Rifter but powers from the books I usually allow without additional restriction unless it's not appropriate for the current campaign. I have never disallowed a power for being too weak though...

[say652]

That's why I stated gming actually.
Many people ate Leary of fan created material, for good reason.
There are good and balanced fan sites many from here actually.
And that Say652 guy his stuff is really awesome. Lol.

[SittingBull]

This was a power from the main HU book.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Which power was it?

[SittingBull]

Control static electricity.

[say652]

I have no words.
Um why??

[SittingBull]

I guess the power is deemed to weak to be a major power.

[say652]

It is a weak major but with a few minor psionic or minor powers it's pretty cool.

[The Artist Formerly]

Can't say I've ever encountered that.

[Nightmask]

I guess the power is deemed to weak to be a major power.

That would be a really odd reason to disallow a power.

[Regularguy]

Control static electricity.

What jumped out at you about that one? What did you hope to use it for?

[SittingBull]

Was just a character centering around electrical powers.

[Pepsi Jedi]

While I don't do it. I could understand some reluctance to allow 'super weak" and or "silly" powers into the game.

1) The power... is pretty much there as a throw away, even the signature character is pretty much a hammy idiot. The Incredible Static man or what ever they call him is a 'joke' char.
2) It's nature being weaker and or silly could make the GM's job harder. You can't really put him up against 'real' or 'dangerous' villians or what have you, as there's only so much that Mr Static could do to combat them. Yes... some Role players would see it as a challenge to rise above their crappy power, but for the GM he's stuck with built in 'restrictions' for his games. bad guys. As he has toi be careful not to just squish the weak lame hero first minute into the game/out of the gate.
3) being a gimmic/silly power it could also mess up the tone of many games. if you're playing grittier or what have you then someone comes along deadpoolin' around acting a fool with a silly power it could mess up the GM's hard work he's put in, to making a 'serious' game.
4) As the char's 'will' be weaker to this extent, the gm is then saddled to make things happen to cater to it, and allow the usage of the powers, or he's ignoring his group. So he has to design some sort of bad guy or situation where in the weak power can shine. A situation that can be 'saved' by static electricity, or changing the color on a wall, or what have you

So Yeah... I could see a GM not wanting to be restricted in what he could throw at the players... and not be 'hobbled' by having to 'dumb down' everything for a player with a silly power to be able to overcome.. or... end up killing off the char that someone's put work into building straight out of the gate if the GM refuses to dumb stuff down.

RP is a collabroative effort. The players do their part and the GM does his part and together you tell the story. if the GM can't tell the story with a character concept, you should speak with the gm. Ask him why. if he has honest reasons then work with him to make something he can work with. If he's just being a jerk. Tell him he's being a jerk.

But if you have... Just for example... A bad guy that's trying to take over the city with an army of spider bots and he's in a large spider mech himself with missles and what have you, running ramshod over the local cops and just tearing up the town... and the hero group consists of
Mr Static with "control static electricity"
Chemelon with "Manipulate color" (( Note.. this is not the chemellon power but the ability to make something green, look red, or something purple look pink etc)
Clear Eyes with "Immune to illusions"
and Narnia man with "Instant Wardrobe"

Your team isn't going to do all that well. The robots are going to kick their butts and the boss in the mech really is. Sure they could do what ever a 'normal' person could do but as a 'hero' game you're going to have to keep it extremely low level to cater to them. A mugger holding someone up with a simple pistol or knife would put these guys in fear for their lives.

The only way this team would work is if the GM custom built an adventure where someone needed to chage the color of an item right away, and that illusions were present often enough for the other guy to have use.. and then the one guy get caught so often out of his super hero costume that his power came in handy and some how static electricity could overcome some obsticle.

Just doing that for ONE adventure would be crazy but having to do it in an ongoing game? Yikes.

So... yeah I can see why. This might not be the GM in question is vetoing it... but there is reason that's not 'jerky' to.

I've disallowed 'Silly' stuff in my game. One guy wanted APS Liquid and wanted to have it be "Mault beverage" So he could get drunk all the time. I vetoed it. Not because "APS Liquid alcohol' is an utterly stupid power (You can do some interesting things with it) but because he was doing it to be silly and disruptive and annoying. I had a guy that wanted APS earwax one time. (Modification of APS wax) I vetoed it too.

[flatline]

I've never known a GM to disallow a power because it was too weak.

I have, personally, disallowed a power because it makes players play stupidly. But that's not quite the same thing.

--flatline

[Regularguy]

But if you have... Just for example... A bad guy that's trying to take over the city with an army of spider bots and he's in a large spider mech himself with missles and what have you, running ramshod over the local cops and just tearing up the town... and the hero group consists of
Mr Static with "control static electricity"

Isn't that arguably a great time to be the CSE guy?

Say you blanket the area with the blinding 'cloud' effect that, yes, okay, inflicts some damage and a -8 to strike/dodge/parry on whatever's in there, which is icing; but it also inflicts the "disruption of electrical equipment and power tools" effect, rendering electronic devices useless and erasing computer disks, sure as every monitor's gone blank and nobody's broadcasting or receiving television or radio signals -- and isn't that cake, against a guy in a mech who was coordinating little bots?

[Pepsi Jedi]

But if you have... Just for example... A bad guy that's trying to take over the city with an army of spider bots and he's in a large spider mech himself with missles and what have you, running ramshod over the local cops and just tearing up the town... and the hero group consists of
Mr Static with "control static electricity"

Isn't that arguably a great time to be the CSE guy?

Say you blanket the area with the blinding 'cloud' effect that, yes, okay, inflicts some damage and a -8 to strike/dodge/parry on whatever's in there, which is icing; but it also inflicts the "disruption of electrical equipment and power tools" effect, rendering electronic devices useless and erasing computer disks, sure as every monitor's gone blank and nobody's broadcasting or receiving television or radio signals -- and isn't that cake, against a guy in a mech who was coordinating little bots?

MMM kinda sorta but mostly no. Robots aren't going to 'get things in their eyes'. And they're unlikely (Though possible) To be wearing clothes to whip around infront of their eyes either. That would have to be a GM Call as to wither the penalties are applied to things that need to blink or use 'eyeballs' to see. Sure you can cover camera lens and such but that's not the same thing as "OH GOD!! SOMETHING IN MY EYE!" as you tear upa nd try and blink it out. Even then it's not going to work in the same fashion.

So you'd have to ask your GM if robots even suffer the penalties, or reduced penalties.

As for the "Disruption" power... kinda... but not. If you read to the end, it says that it only works up to and through 'simple power tools'. Anything that would qualify as a 'robot' (Especially one used by a super villain) Is going to far exceed the mechanical complexity of a 'Simple power tool'. Also remember the 'tech' that these powers were aimed at, was late 70s, to 1980 tech at best. Televisions were huge 50 pound deals for small once if they weren't giant sit on the floor things with transistors in them and stuff. The copy right over all tech level is from 1984 at the very best. After that it's cut and pasted as they go forward. So... what might disrupt a TV from quite -literally- THIRTY TWO YEARS AGO wouldn't affect things that are, unable to be truly made even by the tech we have now, but for convenience sake, would be 'hyper tech'. The power cites "Computer disks and audio tapes" At this point (in 1984) They weren't even using CDs yet. Things were still on floppys, and yes, "Audio tapes" The first CDs weren't even produced till after the book saw print, (Technically they were shown at a convention in 85, but wouldn't see adoption across the board for over a decade and really into the 2000s) and CD roms not even until 1990. So the power couldn't really even target something as old as CD's (As they hadn't even been invented yet) much less the tech needed to produce a mobile robot (Which we're juuuust now in2016, -starting- to approach, and even then haven't actually mastered)

So the static power wouldn't really work against any robots, unless you're running one's from the 50s-70s. (Some people do, but those robots are basicly "magic" in that they don't actually follow 'science' anyway)

At first glance it might appear so, but when you look at it, the robots are going to laugh their little roboty laughs and rip him into chunks as he's trying to hurt them with 1D4 or 1D6 attacks.

He'd be better served using a baseball bat against them.

[Regularguy]

As for the "Disruption" power... kinda... but not. If you read to the end, it says that it only works up to and through 'simple power tools'. Anything that would qualify as a 'robot' (Especially one used by a super villain) Is going to far exceed the mechanical complexity of a 'Simple power tool'.

Well, it says "power tools and electrical equipment", much like how it says "electronic devices".

I take that to mean it renders the item useless if it's electrical equipment in general or an electronic device in particular -- even though, yes, it could also be used to render some power tools useless, without causing a 'but does a simple power tool count as an electronic device' debate.

The point is, it was certainly supposed to stop a clock that was running on battery power, or stop a radio that was running on battery power, or stop a television that was running on battery power, or whatever; a moment ago the electricity was flowing, and a moment later the disruptive force simply made the "electrical equipment" stop working. Is the cellphone running on battery power? Is the videocamera running on battery power? Is the electricity in that electrical equipment flowing? Well, then, it's not, any more, I guess.

The power cites "Computer disks and audio tapes" At this point (in 1984) They weren't even using CDs yet. Things were still on floppys, and yes, "Audio tapes" The first CDs weren't even produced till after the book saw print, (Technically they were shown at a convention in 85, but wouldn't see adoption across the board for over a decade and really into the 2000s) and CD roms not even until 1990. So the power couldn't really even target something as old as CD's

I don't follow you. We're told that the Control Static Electricity power "causes a sudden energy overload" that will erase computer disks -- and, as far as I know, a sudden electrical overload can in fact erase compact discs, because of course it can.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As for the "Disruption" power... kinda... but not. If you read to the end, it says that it only works up to and through 'simple power tools'. Anything that would qualify as a 'robot' (Especially one used by a super villain) Is going to far exceed the mechanical complexity of a 'Simple power tool'.

Well, it says "power tools and electrical equipment", much like how it says "electronic devices".

I take that to mean it renders the item useless if it's electrical equipment in general or an electronic device in particular -- even though, yes, it could also be used to render some power tools useless, without causing a 'but does a simple power tool count as an electronic device' debate.

The point is, it was certainly supposed to stop a clock that was running on battery power, or stop a radio that was running on battery power, or stop a television that was running on battery power, or whatever; a moment ago the electricity was flowing, and a moment later the disruptive force simply made the "electrical equipment" stop working. Is the cellphone running on battery power? Is the videocamera running on battery power? Is the electricity in that electrical equipment flowing? Well, then, it's not, any more, I guess.

The power cites "Computer disks and audio tapes" At this point (in 1984) They weren't even using CDs yet. Things were still on floppys, and yes, "Audio tapes" The first CDs weren't even produced till after the book saw print, (Technically they were shown at a convention in 85, but wouldn't see adoption across the board for over a decade and really into the 2000s) and CD roms not even until 1990. So the power couldn't really even target something as old as CD's

I don't follow you. We're told that the Control Static Electricity power "causes a sudden energy overload" that will erase computer disks -- and, as far as I know, a sudden electrical overload can in fact erase compact discs, because of course it can.

It's not that hard to follow. The power as written targets technology from 30 to 40 years ago. 1980 or before. it's 2016. The technological advances we've had in that time are staggering.

It wouldn't do anything against today's technology. It would be viable if you were in Cuba and going up against tech from before the blockade or soemthing, but.. when was the last time you saw a casset tape? or a Floppy that wasn't used as a coaster? CD's are even mostly out now. Companies don't even like making them. But even CD's came up decades after the tech this power targets, you literally have to go all the way back to cassette tapes.

If it can't even affect complex power tools it's not going to do anything to a robot. It's a joke power, written as a joke power for a throw away villain that was a joke character. The guy uses the power to look up people's dresses and stuff. He's there for a lvl 1 char or lvl 1 group to totally smack around and 'capture/defeat' to get their toes wet in the system.

[flatline]

CD's will not be damaged by static electricity unless you manage to melt them.

As far as data loss goes, static electricity is really only dangerous to storage media that use magnetic regions on disk to encode data (hard drives, tapes, floppy disks) or possibly solid state drives.

--flatline

[Regularguy]

It's not that hard to follow. The power as written targets technology from 30 to 40 years ago. 1980 or before. it's 2016. The technological advances we've had in that time are staggering.

It wouldn't do anything against today's technology.

I just don't see it. So long as "today's technology" is an electronic device, then -- what? The power's description says what happens to electrical equipment and electronic devices in the area, so I figure it (a) would've worked against a 1980 television, and (b) would work against a 2016 television, if and only if they're both "electronic devices". And I figure it would've worked against a radio back when, and would still work against a brand-new radio, provided they're both "electronic devices".

A modern laptop is an electronic device. An iPhone is an electronic device. An iPad is an electronic device. And I've read what this power does to "electronic devices".

If it can't even affect complex power tools it's not going to do anything to a robot.

Can't do anything? That seems a bit strong.

Picture one of those spider-bots: does it 'see' with a videocamera? If so, can CSE temporarily disrupt that electronic device? Is the bot in radio contact with the guy in the mech? If so, can CSE temporarily disrupt that electronic device? Is electrical equipment making electricity flow from a battery to where it needs to go? If so, can CSE temporarily disrupt that electrical equipment?

(I note that flatline popped in to mention the danger to hard drives; would the bot have a hard drive?)

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's not that hard to follow. The power as written targets technology from 30 to 40 years ago. 1980 or before. it's 2016. The technological advances we've had in that time are staggering.

It wouldn't do anything against today's technology.

I just don't see it. So long as "today's technology" is an electronic device, then -- what? The power's description says what happens to electrical equipment and electronic devices in the area, so I figure it (a) would've worked against a 1980 television, and (b) would work against a 2016 television, if and only if they're both "electronic devices". And I figure it would've worked against a radio back when, and would still work against a brand-new radio, provided they're both "electronic devices".

A modern laptop is an electronic device. An iPhone is an electronic device. An iPad is an electronic device. And I've read what this power does to "electronic devices".

If it can't even affect complex power tools it's not going to do anything to a robot.

Can't do anything? That seems a bit strong.

Picture one of those spider-bots: does it 'see' with a videocamera? If so, can CSE temporarily disrupt that electronic device? Is the bot in radio contact with the guy in the mech? If so, can CSE temporarily disrupt that electronic device? Is electrical equipment making electricity flow from a battery to where it needs to go? If so, can CSE temporarily disrupt that electrical equipment?

(I note that flatline popped in to mention the danger to hard drives; would the bot have a hard drive?)

I think you're purposefully trying to adhere to the general while ignoring the specific as it doesn't help your ends.

If it 'tops out' at "Simple power tools" then no, it's not going to affect things stronger/more complex than them. If it affects floppy disks and casset tapes it's not going to affect more modern things.

TVs with transistors in them and tech from 30-40 years ago are not the same as TV's today. No.. a tv from 1980 is not the same machine as the tv from today. They don't work the same. At all. I mean we see a picture, but beyond that he technology is different. LCD's and plasma's aren't the same thing as projection on glass from transitors and vaccume tubes.

Static electricity doesn't blow TV's or Iphones. Pick up your Iphone and skate across the carpet in yoru socks. Nothing happens.

You're talking about static electricity doing something to hyper advanced technology (In the case of robots) It can't even do anything against a complex power tool. If a circular saw is unaffected how's it going to affect a robot that can move around under it's own power. Radios and clocks? People build those in the boy scouts. They've been doing that since the 50s. You're not talking about complex machinery there. (Most especially when you factor in the "power" was written in the early 80s. not modern day) It stipulates Radio's clocks, and simple power tools, being 'overloaded' and shutting off.

The electronics we have now won't even kill you if you throw them in the bath tub with yourself. They're just not the same. the "Computer monitors" that existed when the power was written where the huge CRT ones. We've got flat screens now.

Note it says "When directed at electronic devices LIKE...." then it gives a list. That's not all electronics. It's old tv's, radios, clocks and simple power tools. It doesn't even say it could go up to or effect a motorcycle or car or anything and our technology is far past that (and cars are full of electronics). Modern technology, once put together is shielded from static discharge and effect.

Sort of like on old TV's you coould run your hand over the screen and feel the static built up, but the thing kept right on working. Modern eletronics are even more sturdy and robust. If you opened one up and started trying to put charge though the metal it might work but as built, they're buitl so 1) They can't hurt people so people can't sue and 2) Built so somthing as casual as walking across the room in socks doesn't blow the electronics, so they don't get sued.

The power is clearly stipulated to be weak, and only affect certain things. It only has a area of 20 feet, which, seems big if you're trying to stab someone in the face but robots generally have means of attack beyond simple melee. Takes two actions to activate, that's 2 actions to stop someone's concentration or flee 20 feet. Then it takes away actions per round to maintain.

But seriously. It doesn't indicate all electronics. Just low level ones on the list, and unless you're trying to go after someone with a nail gun or bash them with a radio or old time clock, I'm not sure how it would affect them.

To answer your final questions, no, the robot isn't using a 'videocamera' at the very worst it'd be using a digital camera, no tape to effect. That and the rest of the bot would be made of tech far more advanced than a simple power tool. Again the power doesn't read "All electronic devices' it reads "electonics like... this and this and this" Which tops out at 'simple power tool'.

Your GM may rule differently. This is a game about mutants and aliens and super heroes and super villians. Real science only has as much sway as you let it.

But as a GM. No. I'm not letting Static shut down all electronics it touches. To me, that's silly.

To be honest, I'd ask someone WHY they wanted THIS power so badly, as it'd be tough to build adventures/foes/intresting games for. If they could give me an honest answer that was past "I wanna look up girls dresses" Etc I might think about it. To me it doesn't really have any place in a serious game. (Serious as, we're all playing to enjoy our selves and have fun and try and honestly play the game. Not just jerk around making goofballs). lots of people want to be Deadpool these days. Which is kinda funny considering the reason the char is like that, is to make fun of people that like char's like that. That aspect seems to be lost on them. Which just makes it more ironic. *chuckles*

But yeah... now that we're talking about it. I -would- ask a player why they'd purposefully choose .... How to put it.... "Powers that seem to be jokes, or purposefully there to be silly"
Static man.
Color Manipulation.
The beans/fart power from the rifter.

Stuff like that. In silly goofball games it's one thing but those typically aren't the default.

I wouldn't ban 'A power' sight unseen, but if someone came to me with a power like that, I WOULD vet the character/player to make sure they weren't just making something to dork around with trying to be deadpool while others are trying to play the game 'traditionally'. (And note I'm putting it 'traditionally' not saying there's a 'right' or 'wrong' way to play. Some groups might get loads of fun from Fartman, Static man and the Fart-masters. But it's not the 'traditional' game style played.)

[flatline]

(I note that flatline popped in to mention the danger to hard drives; would the bot have a hard drive?)

A robot would have volatile memory (aka RAM or something similar) and some sort of persistent memory. I would expect both kinds to be, in theory, vulnerable to being disrupted by severe levels of static electricity.

But I think this discussion had taken a wrong turn. Rather than moan about how a particular power is no good in the face of modern or future technology, remember that the purpose of the game is to have fun. If a player can't have fun because their super power doesn't cut it, then it behoves the GM to find ways to let the player be useful. That might mean bending the rules a bit to make a power more effective (without ruining the flavor of the game or character), or customizing the scenario a bit to give the bad guys weaknesses that the player can exploit.

--flatline

[Regularguy]

I think you're purposefully trying to adhere to the general while ignoring the specific as it doesn't help your ends.

I think you're not even doing that!

The power says it works on "electronic devices, like televisions". I read that to mean it works on yet other electronic devices; you say it wouldn't even work on televisions.

It works on electronic devices, like computer monitors; I read that to mean it works on yet other electronic devices; you apparently think that, no, it wouldn't work on today's computer monitors. It works on electronic devices, like radios and clocks; I read that to mean it works on yet other electronic devices; you don't seem to think it affects radios and clocks, because modern electronic devices are "more sturdy and robust" and "is shielded from static discharge".

You put a lot of emphasis on how, in addition to working on "electronic devices" and "electrical equipment", it works on "simple power tools" -- and I of course admit it's a good point: that "simple" limits the range of "power tools" that it affects. But you seem to likewise read in some extra limitation on electronic devices or electrical equipment, as if it read "televisions, computer monitors, radios, clocks -- unless they're, like, sophisticated and high-tech televisions or computer monitors or radios or clocks." But that's not in there.

Note it says "When directed at electronic devices LIKE...."

Well, no, it doesn't; if you're going to split that hair, note that it says "electronic devices, like". Which is arguably pretty significant: "I hate superhero movies like FANT4STIC" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say; it just means you have good taste. "I hate superhero movies, like FANT4STIC" means something else entirely; it means you have no taste.

it reads "electonics like... this and this and this"

No, it doesn't. "I despise methods of execution like the guillotine" means one thing. "I despise methods of execution, like the guillotine" means something else entirely.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think you're purposefully trying to adhere to the general while ignoring the specific as it doesn't help your ends.

I think you're not even doing that!

The power says it works on "electronic devices, like televisions". I read that to mean it works on yet other electronic devices; you say it wouldn't even work on televisions.

Yes, I did, but for a reason. That reason being that HU was written in the early 80s. TV's from 1980 are not the same technology that we use today. That'd be like saying a power works on "Those fancy new horseless carriages that some call... cars!" and expecting it to work 100% the same on a Tesla roaster. yes they both have wheels yes they both get you from point a to point B but the technology is not the same. the Tesla is many generations past the 'horseless carriage' that would predate the model T.

You are ignoring that when the power was written TV's might have still had vaccume tubes. That they were massive monstosities that took up square footage (If not square yardage). Used to be a TV could kill you if it fell off a dresser or something. They'd take two people to move sometimes. Many of the one's from the late 70s to early 80s were 'floor units' that were like 3 foot by 3 foot by 3 foot.

When the power was written (Purposefully) To be weak, it related TV's to "Radios" and "clocks".

And we're not talking digital radios or clocks. It's like... radios that kids would build on planks in boy scouts and such.

This is one of the cases that something written in 1980, doesn't 'age well.'. Palladium's grasp of technology is...... er...... at best... "TV Sort of knowledge". They're RPG writers. Making super powers in 1980 they didn't think about what technology might be like in 2016. Have you looked through the hardware category lately? Even the heroes that are supposed to be "SUPER HI TECH MASTERS OF MACHINES" Still have stuff like Hot wiring a car as a major class skill. There's also a quarter page on penalties for trying to hot wire a car. lol including one for 'Cars after 1985.'

Have you googled cars from 1985? You'd probably laugh. In the write up in the book, cars that are THIRTY ONE YEARS OLD now... are considered high tech by the book. there's penalties to tapping into cable tv. you know.. the actual cable that plugs into the tv. lol When it talks about computers it talks about the super high tech devices like.. telephone modems! There's actually a penalty to skill rolls to surf the net. The 'electronics' goes on about building calculators and toasters.

Now those are listed under the char that is equated to super powers.

Palladium (You see it in HU Alot but other places too) Are not very Tech savy. You may notice there's no weapons in the books after about 1980? That the 'high tech' looks like someone watched the 70s mission impossible show? Now sometimes it doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter you just update and move on. But sometimes it does matter. In this case the static electricity power was written to marginally effect technology from the 70s and very early 80s.

That technology is not the technology we use today.

It works on electronic devices, like computer monitors; I read that to mean it works on yet other electronic devices; you apparently think that, no, it wouldn't work on today's computer monitors.

Right. because today's computer monitors are not the same tech that was used in 1980. They're different. LCD Flat screens do not work the same as giant 40 pound CRT boxes. Again when the power was written, technology was not as far down the line as it is now.

It works on electronic devices, like radios and clocks; I read that to mean it works on yet other electronic devices; you don't seem to think it affects radios and clocks, because modern electronic devices are "more sturdy and robust" and "is shielded from static discharge".

Well... 1... yes, They are. The technology is much more advanced than it was 35 years ago. I'm not really sure how or why that is difficult to comprehend. and 2) it's just different tech.

You're acting like.... something that might effect phones that used to hang on the wall with 10 foot cords effects ALL PHONES "Hey... An Iphone is a phone, same same!

It's not. It's not remotely the same thing. It's not useing telephone lines, it's not plugged into a wall, no cord to get tangled up in, the technology to use a cell phone via cell phone carrier has NOTHING to do with telephones that used to be pluged into the walls etc.

They have some of the same effects. Communication over distance. But the technology is not the same.

I'm going "Hey man... that Iphone isn't what they meant when they wrote 'phones' in 1980. The technology couldn't even be dreamed of out of sci fi shows back then"
Your going "Hey man it says PHONE on it so it's the same thing!"

You put a lot of emphasis on how, in addition to working on "electronic devices" and "electrical equipment", it works on "simple power tools" -- and I of course admit it's a good point: that "simple" limits the range of "power tools" that it affects.

It's important because it sets a limitation on the complexity of mechanical/electrical items that can be effected.

But you seem to likewise read in some extra limitation on electronic devices or electrical equipment, as if it read "televisions, computer monitors, radios, clocks -- unless they're, like, sophisticated and high-tech televisions or computer monitors or radios or clocks." But that's not in there.

By default it is. Sure if you go to an area that has tv's and stuff from the 80s or before, the power might work on them for a few minutes. But out side of third world nations or such, it's not going to.

Note it says "When directed at electronic devices LIKE...."

Well, no, it doesn't; if you're going to split that hair, note that it says "electronic devices, like". Which is arguably pretty significant: "I hate superhero movies like FANT4STIC" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say; it just means you have good taste. "I hate superhero movies, like FANT4STIC" means something else entirely; it means you have no taste.

it reads "electonics like... this and this and this"

No, it doesn't. "I despise methods of execution like the guillotine" means one thing. "I despise methods of execution, like the guillotine" means something else entirely.

No. Not really. One is just more specific than the other. The first says you hate some methods, the other implies you hate all methods but they both describe methods that you hate. They're not 'entirely different'. And yes. I can play with language if I choose.

I was pointing out that in the power write up it gives a list of things that the power can effect and implies others like them. The list is low tech stuff from 30+ Years ago. Regardless you're trying to quibble. The power clearly is intended to affect low tech from 1980 or before.

If you think that's the same thing as high tech from 2016... *Shrugs* Ok. It's your game. I can't make you play the way we play. Nor would I try.

As a GM I wouldn't allow it. And if someone tried to use the lame power (Some powers are lame. but neither you nor I wrote them) to try and affect an F22 or something I'd just laugh at them. If they.. tried to use it to affect pretty much anything after 1985 I'd just inform them that it doesn't seem to have any effect. "Why?" "Because it's technology that's not 30 years old and that doesn't affect them"

It doesn't really need to get any deeper than that for me. No more so than I would apply a skill penalty to surfing the web on a computer, or plugging in cable. (Though I do know some people that couldn't plug in cable... my grandmother can surf the web.) I might apply penalties for using a telephone modem, but not because it is super high tech, but because it's obsolete tech. They even make fun of it on commercials now. The current generation doesn't understand what a telephone modem is. That 'sound' when they connect is totally alien to them.

Go on you tube and google 'Kids trying to use tape players' or something. Watch the videos of kids that can get on computers and surf the web, use complex video game systems, and they can't figure out a cassette tape. heck watch modern professional gamers try and play Megaman. They can't do it. Not because it's 'too advanced' but because we've moved beyond that technology and such.


I do think flatline's right. The discussion has taken a bit of a turn.

Thing is the turn that is pointing to a particular power and the weaknesses in it. Which isn't really the point.

The point is that some powers are so weak or useless as to put additional work on the GM to try and design adventures or challenges for such a 'hero'. while simultaneously limiting the adventures they CAN do, as the heroes would be outclassed by most every sort of super villain there was. I can see under some circumstances a GM going "This game is going to be on a level where that power isn't going to do anything for you. You should pick a power that will" or "That power is silly and will only cause disruption. So I'm not going to allow it"

GM's don't want to have to modify all their stuff to dumb it down for the one guy that refuses to get with the program. if people are flying through the skys and punching godzilla in the face, the one player that demands to have "Manipulate color" Just isn't going to fit in.

no. Not everyone has to be superman. I actually like heroes that have to think and use their heads. Creative usages of powers are great. I love doing it myself.

If your group is trying to take down Magneto and the Brother hood of evil mutants... changing his cape from purple to hot pink isn't going to win the day. To have that character be effective the GM would have to resort to ever more arcane gimmics to have the power be of use. Other wise he's just some guy tagging along with the heroes. Which would very rapidly borderline on the absurd.

And yes "low or silly power games" are a thing. I love street level campaigns. One offs, or games where everyone is PURPOSEFULLY extremely low powered can be fun. But that's not the game by default. trying to play that character when the group is fighting Thanos or something.... could be something the GM just doesn't want to deal with.

[Regularguy]

That'd be like saying a power works on "Those fancy new horseless carriages that some call... cars!" and expecting it to work 100% the same on a Tesla roaster. yes they both have wheels yes they both get you from point a to point B but the technology is not the same. the Tesla is many generations past the 'horseless carriage' that would predate the model T.

Well, let's take that example: I figure Mechano-Link grants a bonus to operating old-timey auto-mobiles, and grants the same bonus to operating a Tesla Roadster that was science fiction in 1985, and will grant that same bonus to whatever Car Of The Future gets unveiled decades from now. It works if you're piloting a biplane, or a 1985 jet, or the most futuristic aircraft that currently exists, or whatever comes next.

I likewise figure Clock Manipulation works on antique clocks, and 1985 clocks, and 2016 clocks, and whatever new clock they roll out next.

I read this power the same way. I figure they just write powers that way.

it related TV's to "Radios" and "clocks".

And we're not talking digital radios or clocks. It's like... radios that kids would build on planks in boy scouts and such.

This is one of the cases that something written in 1980, doesn't 'age well.'. Palladium's grasp of technology is...... er...... at best... "TV Sort of knowledge". They're RPG writers. Making super powers in 1980 they didn't think about what technology might be like in 2016.

I think that's my point: if they're RPG writers with a grasp of technology that you're reluctant to even describe as "TV Sort of knowledge" -- if, as you go on to say, they're "not very Tech savy" -- then it's entirely possible that they intended for it to work on electronic devices regardless of whether static electricity works that way in the first place and regardless of whether we're discussing future radios or future clocks or future TVs.

Maybe that's what they meant. Is that what they wrote?

Well, kinda, yeah:

Note it says "When directed at electronic devices LIKE...."

Well, no, it doesn't; if you're going to split that hair, note that it says "electronic devices, like". Which is arguably pretty significant: "I hate superhero movies like FANT4STIC" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say; it just means you have good taste. "I hate superhero movies, like FANT4STIC" means something else entirely; it means you have no taste.

it reads "electonics like... this and this and this"

No, it doesn't. "I despise methods of execution like the guillotine" means one thing. "I despise methods of execution, like the guillotine" means something else entirely.

No. Not really. One is just more specific than the other. The first says you hate some methods, the other implies you hate all methods but they both describe methods that you hate.

See, this one, I'm sure is my point: as you just explained, leaving that comma in as per the book (instead of removing it, as per your quote) implies "all". And so the comma after "electronic devices" implies -- well, all electronic devices, if I'm reading you right.

They could've written it differently; after all, that bit where they spelled out "simple power tools" could've easily been paired with "and simple electronic devices". But while they took pains to limit CSE's effect on some power tools but not others, they didn't so limit its effect on clocks or radios or TVs or electronic devices; they instead just threw in a comma that I'm told implies "all".

Is that what they implied? Is that what they wrote?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Eh. Play it anyway you want man.
Not trying to be dismissive but I've already put way way way too much time into a silly/stupid power and debating over if something written to minimally effect tech from the 80s can affect modern tech from 2016.

I'm not going to convince you. If that's how you wanna roll. Have fun with it.

No I don't think they envisioned someone would take the write up and try and extrapolate as you have but... The power sucks. So I don't really care to keep putting effort or time into the debate. lol even if I'm 100% right (and of course I think I am. just like you think you're right) It doesn't matter that much. I'm not taking the power. Noone I know would. Doesnt' mean NOONE would clearly some people are enchanted by it. So.. they can play it and have fun with it.

I roll in other ways.

[Sureshot]

In my case it was the Teleport power. Not because it was weak. As one of the the options of a failed teleport is instant death. Not very superheroic or fun really At least other supers rpgs have the character very injured or unable to use their power.

[Regularguy]

Eh. Play it anyway you want man.
Not trying to be dismissive but I've already put way way way too much time into a silly/stupid power and debating over if something written to minimally effect tech from the 80s can affect modern tech from 2016.

I'm not going to convince you. If that's how you wanna roll. Have fun with it.

No I don't think they envisioned someone would take the write up and try and extrapolate as you have but... The power sucks. So I don't really care to keep putting effort or time into the debate. lol even if I'm 100% right (and of course I think I am. just like you think you're right) It doesn't matter that much. I'm not taking the power. Noone I know would. Doesnt' mean NOONE would clearly some people are enchanted by it. So.. they can play it and have fun with it.

I roll in other ways.

Heh. What's interesting to me is, I wonder if the player who started this thread sees CSE the way I do (disrupts clocks and radios and TVs and electronic devices) -- and got told 'no, that power is unacceptably weak' by a GM who sees it the way you do (doesn't disrupt clocks or radios or TVs or electronic devices unless they were old hat thirty years ago).

And I wonder if they never actually mentioned the parenthetical parts to each other.

Which would explain a lot, actually.

[flatline]

Eh. Play it anyway you want man.
Not trying to be dismissive but I've already put way way way too much time into a silly/stupid power and debating over if something written to minimally effect tech from the 80s can affect modern tech from 2016.

I'm not going to convince you. If that's how you wanna roll. Have fun with it.

No I don't think they envisioned someone would take the write up and try and extrapolate as you have but... The power sucks. So I don't really care to keep putting effort or time into the debate. lol even if I'm 100% right (and of course I think I am. just like you think you're right) It doesn't matter that much. I'm not taking the power. Noone I know would. Doesnt' mean NOONE would clearly some people are enchanted by it. So.. they can play it and have fun with it.

I roll in other ways.

Heh. What's interesting to me is, I wonder if the player who started this thread sees CSE the way I do (disrupts clocks and radios and TVs and electronic devices) -- and got told 'no, that power is unacceptably weak' by a GM who sees it the way you do (doesn't disrupt clocks or radios or TVs or electronic devices unless they were old hat thirty years ago).

And I wonder if they never actually mentioned the parenthetical parts to each other.

Which would explain a lot, actually.

That would be tragic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm thinking that might be misplaced...

[Daniel Stoker]

Maybe Bernie has Control Static Electricity? I mean it would explain his hair.


Daniel Stoker

[eliakon]

Eh. Play it anyway you want man.
Not trying to be dismissive but I've already put way way way too much time into a silly/stupid power and debating over if something written to minimally effect tech from the 80s can affect modern tech from 2016.

I'm not going to convince you. If that's how you wanna roll. Have fun with it.

No I don't think they envisioned someone would take the write up and try and extrapolate as you have but... The power sucks. So I don't really care to keep putting effort or time into the debate. lol even if I'm 100% right (and of course I think I am. just like you think you're right) It doesn't matter that much. I'm not taking the power. Noone I know would. Doesnt' mean NOONE would clearly some people are enchanted by it. So.. they can play it and have fun with it.

I roll in other ways.

Heh. What's interesting to me is, I wonder if the player who started this thread sees CSE the way I do (disrupts clocks and radios and TVs and electronic devices) -- and got told 'no, that power is unacceptably weak' by a GM who sees it the way you do (doesn't disrupt clocks or radios or TVs or electronic devices unless they were old hat thirty years ago).

And I wonder if they never actually mentioned the parenthetical parts to each other.

Which would explain a lot, actually.

That would be tragic.

I would wonder why the player was not talking to the GM about character creation.
I mean seriously when I run games I am rather insistent that the players and I work together to make sure that everyone's characters will fit. It doesn't always work of course. But when I say "no that won't work" I tell the person why. And when I am a player if something is rejected I ask "okay, that's cool. Can I ask what was wrong with it so I can adjust the concept to fit with in the game?"
If your not doing that, if your just got
<Player> *gets cool idea* "Oh! I want CSE"
<GM> "No, that's to weak"
<Player> "Dang it" *goes off to make a new character*
Then you have serious underlying issues already...

[flatline]

Eh. Play it anyway you want man.
Not trying to be dismissive but I've already put way way way too much time into a silly/stupid power and debating over if something written to minimally effect tech from the 80s can affect modern tech from 2016.

I'm not going to convince you. If that's how you wanna roll. Have fun with it.

No I don't think they envisioned someone would take the write up and try and extrapolate as you have but... The power sucks. So I don't really care to keep putting effort or time into the debate. lol even if I'm 100% right (and of course I think I am. just like you think you're right) It doesn't matter that much. I'm not taking the power. Noone I know would. Doesnt' mean NOONE would clearly some people are enchanted by it. So.. they can play it and have fun with it.

I roll in other ways.

Heh. What's interesting to me is, I wonder if the player who started this thread sees CSE the way I do (disrupts clocks and radios and TVs and electronic devices) -- and got told 'no, that power is unacceptably weak' by a GM who sees it the way you do (doesn't disrupt clocks or radios or TVs or electronic devices unless they were old hat thirty years ago).

And I wonder if they never actually mentioned the parenthetical parts to each other.

Which would explain a lot, actually.

That would be tragic.

I would wonder why the player was not talking to the GM about character creation.
I mean seriously when I run games I am rather insistent that the players and I work together to make sure that everyone's characters will fit. It doesn't always work of course. But when I say "no that won't work" I tell the person why. And when I am a player if something is rejected I ask "okay, that's cool. Can I ask what was wrong with it so I can adjust the concept to fit with in the game?"
If your not doing that, if your just got
<Player> *gets cool idea* "Oh! I want CSE"
<GM> "No, that's to weak"
<Player> "Dang it" *goes off to make a new character*
Then you have serious underlying issues already...

Yeah, I would be curious about that, too.

In the groups I played with, the players and the GM would design the party as a group, with lots of "what if" questions thrown about during character creation. This was especially true in HU campaigns when we were considering the potential synergies between powers.

example: "If I take Create Force Field, can I also take Healing Factor but instead of HF healing me, have it increase the recharge rate of my force fields?"

From that example, you might have guessed that we had very accommodating GMs...

--flatline

[Lone Stranger]

As an electronics technician, I have to add this...

Modern computer chips are far more vulnerable to static electricity than transistors and tubes. Especially the CRT displays in old televisions.
When working on a circuit board, the technician has to wear a static grounding strap, to make sure he doesn't accidentally fry the circuits with static electricity. The same strap is suggested for when working on computers - even if you're just swapping out one card for another (like updating a graphics card).
YES, it is possible to work on computers and electronics without the grounding strap... but not advisable.

So, unless the robots and mech are shielded against static electricity and/or grounded, they would be vulnerable to Control Static Electricty.

I'd much rather face that power with tech from the 1950's than with anything made in the last 3 or 4 decades.

[eliakon]

As an electronics technician, I have to add this...

Modern computer chips are far more vulnerable to static electricity than transistors and tubes. Especially the CRT displays in old televisions.
When working on a circuit board, the technician has to wear a static grounding strap, to make sure he doesn't accidentally fry the circuits with static electricity. The same strap is suggested for when working on computers - even if you're just swapping out one card for another (like updating a graphics card).
YES, it is possible to work on computers and electronics without the grounding strap... but not advisable.

So, unless the robots and mech are shielded against static electricity and/or grounded, they would be vulnerable to Control Static Electricty.

I'd much rather face that power with tech from the 1950's than with anything made in the last 3 or 4 decades.

Well since most electronic devices I am aware of do not have their circuit cards on the outside, but rather inside cases. Cases I might add that are in most instances specifically designed to provide electrostatic protection and grounding. Well I would feel pretty confidant that any robot or mech is going to be pretty well shielded and grounded. I mean I guess it might be possible that some hardware characters scratch build jury rig robot might have some ungrounded cases... But this isn't like the Chi-Spell that makes some sort of cloud. A grounded robot is just going to laugh at this. We can tell this since even when the book was written the power couldn't affect large, durable electronics. Even ones that had micro-electronic systems. I see no reason why this should suddenly change.

Now sure, if the player wants a power that is, for all intents and purposes a minor power. And if the proposed character doesn't disrupt the game's theme. Go for it. But don't take a joke power, and expect it to actually secretly be super powerful and helpful. Its not.

[Lone Stranger]

As an electronics technician, I have to add this...

Modern computer chips are far more vulnerable to static electricity than transistors and tubes. Especially the CRT displays in old televisions.
When working on a circuit board, the technician has to wear a static grounding strap, to make sure he doesn't accidentally fry the circuits with static electricity. The same strap is suggested for when working on computers - even if you're just swapping out one card for another (like updating a graphics card).
YES, it is possible to work on computers and electronics without the grounding strap... but not advisable.

So, unless the robots and mech are shielded against static electricity and/or grounded, they would be vulnerable to Control Static Electricty.

I'd much rather face that power with tech from the 1950's than with anything made in the last 3 or 4 decades.

Well since most electronic devices I am aware of do not have their circuit cards on the outside, but rather inside cases. Cases I might add that are in most instances specifically designed to provide electrostatic protection and grounding. Well I would feel pretty confidant that any robot or mech is going to be pretty well shielded and grounded. I mean I guess it might be possible that some hardware characters scratch build jury rig robot might have some ungrounded cases... But this isn't like the Chi-Spell that makes some sort of cloud. A grounded robot is just going to laugh at this. We can tell this since even when the book was written the power couldn't affect large, durable electronics. Even ones that had micro-electronic systems. I see no reason why this should suddenly change.

Now sure, if the player wants a power that is, for all intents and purposes a minor power. And if the proposed character doesn't disrupt the game's theme. Go for it. But don't take a joke power, and expect it to actually secretly be super powerful and helpful. Its not.

As for your last statement about minor powers - I personally think some of the "minor" powers are too major: Energy Emission, IMO, should be a major power. Super Energy Emission is on another level altogether. Again - my opinion.

[eliakon]

As an electronics technician, I have to add this...

Modern computer chips are far more vulnerable to static electricity than transistors and tubes. Especially the CRT displays in old televisions.
When working on a circuit board, the technician has to wear a static grounding strap, to make sure he doesn't accidentally fry the circuits with static electricity. The same strap is suggested for when working on computers - even if you're just swapping out one card for another (like updating a graphics card).
YES, it is possible to work on computers and electronics without the grounding strap... but not advisable.

So, unless the robots and mech are shielded against static electricity and/or grounded, they would be vulnerable to Control Static Electricty.

I'd much rather face that power with tech from the 1950's than with anything made in the last 3 or 4 decades.

Well since most electronic devices I am aware of do not have their circuit cards on the outside, but rather inside cases. Cases I might add that are in most instances specifically designed to provide electrostatic protection and grounding. Well I would feel pretty confidant that any robot or mech is going to be pretty well shielded and grounded. I mean I guess it might be possible that some hardware characters scratch build jury rig robot might have some ungrounded cases... But this isn't like the Chi-Spell that makes some sort of cloud. A grounded robot is just going to laugh at this. We can tell this since even when the book was written the power couldn't affect large, durable electronics. Even ones that had micro-electronic systems. I see no reason why this should suddenly change.

Now sure, if the player wants a power that is, for all intents and purposes a minor power. And if the proposed character doesn't disrupt the game's theme. Go for it. But don't take a joke power, and expect it to actually secretly be super powerful and helpful. Its not.

As for your last statement about minor powers - I personally think some of the "minor" powers are too major: Energy Emission, IMO, should be a major power. Super Energy Emission is on another level altogether. Again - my opinion.

Oh I agree in my games some of the canon Major Powers are minor ones, and some of the Minor Powers are major ones.
I will also freely admit that some of this is based on how I run things, and how my players like to play, which is why Impervious to Magic or Psionics are Major Powers, or why if I allow anyone else to take it EE: Sticky Globs is a major as well.

[Fermat]

I ban some powers to cut down on my paperwork (Mimic comes to mind), but for powers I can't say I would block a single power for being too weak. Maybe if the combination of powers really made them more of a minor hero class in a more powerful game. And I don't let anyone play a Super Sleuth as written. You can make the same character with almost any power category through skill selection, and most will be better.

However, that's just my duo of decapitated Abrahams.