Some thoughts on Armageddon Unlimited

[barna10]

OK, just getting around to reading some of this, and here are my comments (sry, Carl)

Complete Possession: How is this any better then Transferral / Possession? In fact it seems much worse. Almost so bad I'd make it a minor power.

Energy Drain & Expulsion: Because you need to touch to drain and it's useless without a victim, I'd make this a minor power. On one hand it's a minor attack power (the drain), on the other it's a minor EE power (the bolt). So you spend two actions doing two weak attacks. Can you use this like other EE powers, maybe draining two or more victims at once (as long as your touching all of them) and then expel a more powerful blast? Then, it's not clarified, but can the power user heal himself? With this being a major, that better be the case, but even then it's pretty weak since it relies on a victim / fuel. On top of it, you can't drain someone to death! I always find it hilarious that game designers have no qualms about including guns in their game but then draw the line at powers that kill or are too powerful.

"Let me get this straight, I can pick up that railgun and do 1d6x10 damage and you're complaining about my energy draining power killing someone? What if I just drain him down to 13 HP and then shoot his with his own life energy, can I kill him then? How about I just slap him.

[Nekira Sudacne]

OK, just getting around to reading some of this, and here are my comments (sry, Carl)

Complete Possession: How is this any better then Transferral / Possession? In fact it seems much worse. Almost so bad I'd make it a minor power.

It does have a lot of limitations, but it does have one thing up on it. Transferal/possession works same as a psionic saving throw, which means all bonuses to save vs. psionics apply, as well as any to possession. Complete Possession is a battle of wills, where a person with a strong MA (say having the extradordinary MA minor power as well) has a much higher chance of taking possession of someone, even if they are psychic. the fact that this power is not psionic in nature also means mind block isn't a defense. It's up to you if this one strength outweighs the weakness.

Energy Drain & Expulsion: Because you need to touch to drain and it's useless without a victim, I'd make this a minor power. On one hand it's a minor attack power (the drain), on the other it's a minor EE power (the bolt). So you spend two actions doing two weak attacks. Can you use this like other EE powers, maybe draining two or more victims at once (as long as your touching all of them) and then expel a more powerful blast? Then, it's not clarified, but can the power user heal himself? With this being a major, that better be the case, but even then it's pretty weak since it relies on a victim / fuel. On top of it, you can't drain someone to death! I always find it hilarious that game designers have no qualms about including guns in their game but then draw the line at powers that kill or are too powerful.

"Let me get this straight, I can pick up that railgun and do 1d6x10 damage and you're complaining about my energy draining power killing someone? What if I just drain him down to 13 HP and then shoot his with his own life energy, can I kill him then? How about I just slap him.

It's not the greatest major power, no, but you are overlooking something, in return for needing a battery, you get a power that can heal, as well as harm, not something any other power in the game can do. It's not a good attack power, it is however a great support power. if you have some victem/volenteer with a ton of Hit points/SDC (say a pal with the tremendous SDC power), you can drain tons of life from him to heal your allies. in a beam.

this major power gives you a heal beam.

I hope this answers your questions

[barna10]

Healing beam is interesting, but still not worth a Major Power slot.

Why is it that Healing is SO penalized in Palladium? Why can you do hundreds of points of damage, every round without penalty, but to heal someone you need to cause damage to yourself or another?

[eliakon]

Healing beam is interesting, but still not worth a Major Power slot.

Why is it that Healing is SO penalized in Palladium? Why can you do hundreds of points of damage, every round without penalty, but to heal someone you need to cause damage to yourself or another?

Partly because originally the Palladium system was designed around the idea that players had low health totals, that battles were scary and that healing was impressive not just hum-drum.
As the system has evolved Healing has more and more become the province of side of the house with Psionics secondary and Super Powers third (I am including clerics in magic here). This is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing.

[barna10]

Partly because originally the Palladium system was designed around the idea that players had low health totals, that battles were scary and that healing was impressive not just hum-drum.
As the system has evolved Healing has more and more become the province of side of the house with Psionics secondary and Super Powers third (I am including clerics in magic here). This is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing.

Hmm..I just noticed something with your comment. It's almost as if Palladium, and a good deal of it's fans, have developed in a vacuum, sort of a relic community of gamers. While games, gaming, and gamers have evolved over the last 4 decades, Palladium hasn't changed much. This isn't meant to be an insult, just an observation. I think it's what causes many of my pains with the system: I've evolved and it hasn't.

[flatline]

Partly because originally the Palladium system was designed around the idea that players had low health totals, that battles were scary and that healing was impressive not just hum-drum.
As the system has evolved Healing has more and more become the province of side of the house with Psionics secondary and Super Powers third (I am including clerics in magic here). This is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing.

Hmm..I just noticed something with your comment. It's almost as if Palladium, and a good deal of it's fans, have developed in a vacuum, sort of a relic community of gamers. While games, gaming, and gamers have evolved over the last 4 decades, Palladium hasn't changed much. This isn't meant to be an insult, just an observation. I think it's what causes many of my pains with the system: I've evolved and it hasn't.

Games don't generally evolve, they're simply replaced by different games.

[eliakon]

Partly because originally the Palladium system was designed around the idea that players had low health totals, that battles were scary and that healing was impressive not just hum-drum.
As the system has evolved Healing has more and more become the province of side of the house with Psionics secondary and Super Powers third (I am including clerics in magic here). This is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing.

Hmm..I just noticed something with your comment. It's almost as if Palladium, and a good deal of it's fans, have developed in a vacuum, sort of a relic community of gamers. While games, gaming, and gamers have evolved over the last 4 decades, Palladium hasn't changed much. This isn't meant to be an insult, just an observation. I think it's what causes many of my pains with the system: I've evolved and it hasn't.

Games don't generally evolve, they're simply replaced by different games.

^this^
It is pretty rare for a game system to 'evolve' drastically
A few times you will see it (D&D going to 3rd edition is one of the most pronounced examples)
But generally each game has a conceptual backing to it, where there is an overall 'this is the parts of reality we want to simulate' and 'this is what we don't want to simulate' starts. Also there is a 'this is the feel of what we want to accomplish' there.
Then the game is built so that that feel can be captured by simulating what is wanted to be simulated. Sometimes you want to simulate reality. Sometimes you want to simulate UNreality. What ever you do the system is usually built with a goal in mind. Massive changes would require you to be changing the goals of what you want to be doing with the game as a whole.

In the case of Palladium the evolution has been to add technology, then add super powers, to scale back the different forms of energy i.e. Chi in books now is done using ISP or PPE usually (And no, this isn't to start a fight, just an observation so don't threadjack on it.) Healing has slowly spread from priestly magic/psionics to other forms of magic. Magic has gone from spells per day to PPE. SDC was added....
There has been a lot of changes and evolution. But it has been incremental and has been in keeping with the general 'design philosophy'. Could they throw in super powers that allow massive AoE healing or technological regenerators? Sure. But so far that hasn't been something that fits the desired flavor of the setting. It might someday....but it hasn't ever made sense and it would defeat a lot of the purposeful design choices that have been made.

[barna10]

It might someday....but it hasn't ever made sense and it would defeat a lot of the purposeful design choices that have been made.

I think you are operating under a false presumption that anything you are reading is "purposeful". This implies some sort of logic or consistency. If this were the case Power Touch would be fueled by PPE, psionics would have the same description from one rule book to the next, and there wouldn't be three different sections of the Battle Magus description where starting spells are defined.

Palladium is a game created by artists...not mathematicians...not philosophers...not even business people...artists. Artists are not ruled by logic, they operate on "feel" and "a sense of (insert X here)". This is evident in the MANY examples you can find in the various books of the writers and editor trying to convey their vision of how you (the gamer) are supposed to use their creation. Only an artist gets so emotionally invested in his or her creation that actually pains them when someone uses it wrong.

[eliakon]

It might someday....but it hasn't ever made sense and it would defeat a lot of the purposeful design choices that have been made.

I think you are operating under a false presumption that anything you are reading is "purposeful". This implies some sort of logic or consistency. If this were the case Power Touch would be fueled by PPE, psionics would have the same description from one rule book to the next, and there wouldn't be three different sections of the Battle Magus description where starting spells are defined.

Palladium is a game created by artists...not mathematicians...not philosophers...not even business people...artists. Artists are not ruled by logic, they operate on "feel" and "a sense of (insert X here)". This is evident in the MANY examples you can find in the various books of the writers and editor trying to convey their vision of how you (the gamer) are supposed to use their creation. Only an artist gets so emotionally invested in his or her creation that actually pains them when someone uses it wrong.

I am not saying that it is always perfect.
I am saying that the game is, as a whole, designed for certain thematic elements (That would be your Artists by the way). And that those themes are what are considered to be important.
So no. Power Touch would not ever be powered by PPE. Why? Because its a super power. Super powers are never powered by PPE. That is why they had to make up a super power points to power it. Because PPE has been thematically set as 'this is potential psychic energy'. It would be a radical change to make a super power that was powered by PPE. That would be a huge change in the theme.

And yes, the editing could be better. But editing =/= design.

Also yes the different games have different versions of the various powers/skills/spells/ect. That is because they are different games.
If you want to import bits from another game like PF into your HU game that's great. They both use the same basic game engine. But they have slightly different rules, and their spells, skills, psionics, magic items and the like have slightly different effects. This is a consequence of the fact that one game is designed for one thing and one game is designed for another.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Healing beam is interesting, but still not worth a Major Power slot.

Why is it that Healing is SO penalized in Palladium? Why can you do hundreds of points of damage, every round without penalty, but to heal someone you need to cause damage to yourself or another?

Because the lack of healing gives bio Regen a kind of primacy along with the regeneration super powers. A demon or hero who Regen's 1d6 a melee and can come back an hour later fully healed while you are worn down is intended to be a big thing in this system. Easy healing makes this not work, so healing isn't easy.

It isn't so visible in HU where bad guys are custom made from a selection of interchageable power slots or types, but in Rifts, creatures with a high regeneration are frequently cited as being terrors because they will almost always simply run away while low on health and come back shortly, and much story fluff is given to such things. if healing magic were easy and effective, it wouldn't be scarey because then most groups would be full up too.

[barna10]

Is it just me or are the Mega-Heroes in Armageddon Unlimited...not so mega? Sure the Demon-Bestowed can be a power house with 5 majors, but what if just take the two minor and one major powers? In the later case you aren't any more powerful than a Super Soldier. Plus, they don't get any of the Mega-Hero specials...

I'm left scratching my head...

[Sir_Spirit]

Pretty sure they can get all the mego hero perks.
ANd comparing them to a regular mystically bestowed they are great.
But the good guys are kinda lame.

[eliakon]

Is it just me or are the Mega-Heroes in Armageddon Unlimited...not so mega? Sure the Demon-Bestowed can be a power house with 5 majors, but what if just take the two minor and one major powers? In the later case you aren't any more powerful than a Super Soldier. Plus, they don't get any of the Mega-Hero specials...

I'm left scratching my head...

Well there is their giant budget, their skill set, their supernatural stats, the conditional imortality......
Its a package and not just "how many super powers do I get" thing. The comparison is that of the entire package to other entire packages. Otherwise we get silliness like
"But this class has no super powers at all, why are they any good?"
"Uhhhh, because you have a boat load of skills with really good bonuses?"
"But they have more super powers than I do"

[barna10]

Is it just me or are the Mega-Heroes in Armageddon Unlimited...not so mega? Sure the Demon-Bestowed can be a power house with 5 majors, but what if just take the two minor and one major powers? In the later case you aren't any more powerful than a Super Soldier. Plus, they don't get any of the Mega-Hero specials...

I'm left scratching my head...

Well there is their giant budget, their skill set, their supernatural stats, the conditional imortality......
Its a package and not just "how many super powers do I get" thing. The comparison is that of the entire package to other entire packages. Otherwise we get silliness like
"But this class has no super powers at all, why are they any good?"
"Uhhhh, because you have a boat load of skills with really good bonuses?"
"But they have more super powers than I do"

Yeah, that's true for the Heroic Hellion but not even close for the alternate Mystically Bestowed

Pretty sure they can get all the mego hero perks.
ANd comparing them to a regular mystically bestowed they are great.
But the good guys are kinda lame.

The Descriptions for the Mystically Bestowed doesn't state this anywhere, and a few of their power sets mention granting Supernatural Strength which wouldn't be necessary if the character already received the Mega-Hero perks.

[Sir_Spirit]

The Descriptions for the Mystically Bestowed doesn't state this anywhere, and a few of their power sets mention granting Supernatural Strength which wouldn't be necessary if the character already received the Mega-Hero perks.

Well, that would be a concern if PB had top notch editting and crack staff of consistancy checkers, but they don't. So, with all due respect to PB's staff(whom I am sure do work hard) that could just be an editting oversight.
As it is, you could decide they are or are not mega's per your tastes and not be nonCanon....

Edit: I am going to look through my copy again. See if there is a general comment around the mystically bestowed section that might clear this up any...

[barna10]

Well, there's this quote:

The variations listed below should not be combined with the Mega-Hero option as the characters could become unbalanced, plus some aspects of the Mega-Hero have already been incorporated into these specific Mystically Bestowed characters.

The problem is, the only "Mega-Hero" feature I see incorporated is Achilles Heel! So, since they already have a limitation, don't give them another one?

[Sir_Spirit]

That works for me.

[Niji]

Its likely clasified as mega-hero BECAUSE of how powerful they COULD be, don't forget you can make a character with 2 minor powers and 1d4 psionic powers, or even a hardware character a mega-hero and their stats and abilities wouldn't change very much. It makes....whatever you happen to be about 50% better for almost double the exp required to level. So POTENTIALLY the power category is VERY powerful, or if rolling randomly and you are terrible at rolling desired numbers on dice it can be devistatingly weak....but if you rolled that poorly in another category you'd be half as weak as the megas present in ArmU

[Sir_Spirit]

Maybe, I was thinking that you could just say they are fully "Mega" by saying they get all the 1-8 listed benefits that all Mega's get. Then basically say they don't get to roll or pick the one or two mega-abilities you can get.
Assume the SDC you are listed as getting for the MB in ArU is already calculated to include the extra SDC you get()though stuff from powers gives you the extras SDC as normal).
Should still be balanced then.

[eliakon]

Maybe, I was thinking that you could just say they are fully "Mega" by saying they get all the 1-8 listed benefits that all Mega's get. Then basically say they don't get to roll or pick the one or two mega-abilities you can get.
Assume the SDC you are listed as getting for the MB in ArU is already calculated to include the extra SDC you get()though stuff from powers gives you the extras SDC as normal).
Should still be balanced then.

The thing that some people forget is that Megahero isn't an add on.
Really
There is a Mystic Imbued, and a Mega-Mystic Imbued. A Mutant and a Mega-Mutant, etc.
When turning a 'base line' class into its 'mega version' you add the various abilities yes...
...but if you are already starting as a Mega class then you might be trading off some of the 'normal' powers for something else...
which is basically what happened here. These classes are not megafications of something else...they, like the Immortal, were built from the ground up as megas and thus will follow different rules than something being simply megafied.

[SolCannibal]

Doing into something of an U-turn on the discussion but still sort of on topic, what can you people say to me about on Armageddon Unlimited as a setting book?

What does it offer up in terms of inserting elements of the Minion War and its apocalyptic/infernal invasion set-up in already existing HU campaigns?

How much of it would be useful/adaptable to other contemporary/near future settings like Beyond the Supernatural, TMNT, Nightbane, Dead Reign, Robotech or others?

It has crossed my mind that the whole "causing a 3rd world war to bring a premeditated Time of Rifts-like event" conceit of the book could work in any alternate earth with a 40s to near-future political and technological context, so would like to get some input from other people on the subject of "other armageddons"...

[Razorwing]

There are those on this forum who have said that the plot as presented is doomed to failure as any Tom, Dick or Harry (they don't even have to be super heroes or villains) would be able to stumble upon it very easily due to the side effects of the Chaos Generators being so obvious.

To be honest, I don't believe it is as simple as that. Yes, the side-effects are rather obvious, but discovering the source of them (the generators) may not be quite so easy... let alone the origin of these generators (or the fact that there are hundreds of them around the world). No one knows exactly how many generators need to survive to trigger the Armageddon Event. Even the Gateway Arc suddenly being magical isn't readily detectible... it is located on a major Nexus Point which will mask such a signature to some degree (many powers that detect magic fail to be reliable near ley lines and nexus points... too much magic in the area to get a clear reading). Even the few Magical Heroes in the area (and Magical origin characters are believed to be the rarest origin for heroes and villains in a modern setting) are unlikely to notice without actually being at the arc (again, they expect the area to be magical... so sensing magic there isn't likely to draw attention).

This is honestly why the Armageddon Plot has a very real chance of success... most heroes do not take magic as a serious threat. An individual demon or deevil isn't much of a threat... at least the lesser one's aren't. However, such demons are rarely encountered alone and are often lead by a more powerful demon who even on its own could be a threat. Add in their ability to bring more demons/deevils to the area quickly... and even a team of heroes could be facing a small army.

Played intelligently (both with the demons and how players/heroes can come across this plot) and it could be a very interesting campaign... or it could devolve into a farce if one assumes it is too easy to discover and the enemies are played like fools (too arrogant to use their abilities to their full potential).

[Sir_Spirit]

Well, the books settting has it share the verse with Century station. And it's trying to turn HU-Earth into a Dyval controlled version of Rifts Earth.
This plot doesn't require the Minion War to be going on. Though it does mention that some Demons of Hades might be wiling ot aide heroes to stop it.
So preventing that could lead to some crosstime shinnanigans if you like that sort of thing.
Or there are various plots around it you could use(did someone get empowered by a DemonLord without knowing it, and now have to worry about being tempted to evil?).
Then there are demonic teams of supervillians any Superhero could use(the Supers aren't all demons either, though telling which is which might be a bit confusing. There is a super powered demon, a socialpath with a magic wakizashi, a fanatical monk form N. Korea who wants Korea spared/under his rule, and even a super vampier/zombie dude, and a potentially helpful DemonSnakeLady[her write up mentions she loves to help the underdog]).

[SolCannibal]

So overall it's Dyvval actively trying to turn HU-Earth into their own version of Rifts Earth, with forces from Hades (or even other minor powers for a number of reasons) indirectly running interference, because they know the deevyls are up to something but not quite WHAT and also possibly busy with plots of their own in a number of other places? Is that it mostly?

How important are the Chaos Generators to their strategy exactly and how applicable might this plot be to a modern setting without superheroes or villains?

[barna10]

So overall it's Dyvval actively trying to turn HU-Earth into their own version of Rifts Earth, with forces from Hades (or even other minor powers for a number of reasons) indirectly running interference, because they know the deevyls are up to something but not quite WHAT and also possibly busy with plots of their own in a number of other places? Is that it mostly?

How important are the Chaos Generators to their strategy exactly and how applicable might this plot be to a modern setting without superheroes or villains?

Sounds like a great one for N&SS or BTS, or even Nightbane. The Nightlords could be the opposing force there.

[SolCannibal]

So overall it's Dyvval actively trying to turn HU-Earth into their own version of Rifts Earth, with forces from Hades (or even other minor powers for a number of reasons) indirectly running interference, because they know the deevyls are up to something but not quite WHAT and also possibly busy with plots of their own in a number of other places? Is that it mostly?

How important are the Chaos Generators to their strategy exactly and how applicable might this plot be to a modern setting without superheroes or villains?

Sounds like a great one for N&SS or BTS, or even Nightbane. The Nightlords could be the opposing force there.

VERY good point indeed - i had completely missed the possibility of the Nightlords running interference in place of the demons of Hades in a Nightbane game, pre- or post- Dark Day...

[Glistam]

So overall it's Dyvval actively trying to turn HU-Earth into their own version of Rifts Earth, with forces from Hades (or even other minor powers for a number of reasons) indirectly running interference, because they know the deevyls are up to something but not quite WHAT and also possibly busy with plots of their own in a number of other places? Is that it mostly?

How important are the Chaos Generators to their strategy exactly and how applicable might this plot be to a modern setting without superheroes or villains?

Sounds like a great one for N&SS or BTS, or even Nightbane. The Nightlords could be the opposing force there.

VERY good point indeed - i had completely missed the possibility of the Nightlords running interference in place of the demons of Hades in a Nightbane game, pre- or post- Dark Day...

The Armageddon Unlimited plot can easily be re-purposed into a pre-Darkday plot, where the activation of the devices across the globe would bring about Dark Day.

[barna10]

So overall it's Dyvval actively trying to turn HU-Earth into their own version of Rifts Earth, with forces from Hades (or even other minor powers for a number of reasons) indirectly running interference, because they know the deevyls are up to something but not quite WHAT and also possibly busy with plots of their own in a number of other places? Is that it mostly?

How important are the Chaos Generators to their strategy exactly and how applicable might this plot be to a modern setting without superheroes or villains?

Sounds like a great one for N&SS or BTS, or even Nightbane. The Nightlords could be the opposing force there.

VERY good point indeed - i had completely missed the possibility of the Nightlords running interference in place of the demons of Hades in a Nightbane game, pre- or post- Dark Day...

The Armageddon Unlimited plot can easily be re-purposed into a pre-Darkday plot, where the activation of the devices across the globe would bring about Dark Day.

Truthfully I'd thought about using the plot to implement a Chaos Earth setting, but not Dark Day. Either would be pretty cool, IMO.

[SolCannibal]

So overall it's Dyvval actively trying to turn HU-Earth into their own version of Rifts Earth, with forces from Hades (or even other minor powers for a number of reasons) indirectly running interference, because they know the deevyls are up to something but not quite WHAT and also possibly busy with plots of their own in a number of other places? Is that it mostly?

How important are the Chaos Generators to their strategy exactly and how applicable might this plot be to a modern setting without superheroes or villains?

Sounds like a great one for N&SS or BTS, or even Nightbane. The Nightlords could be the opposing force there.

VERY good point indeed - i had completely missed the possibility of the Nightlords running interference in place of the demons of Hades in a Nightbane game, pre- or post- Dark Day...

The Armageddon Unlimited plot can easily be re-purposed into a pre-Darkday plot, where the activation of the devices across the globe would bring about Dark Day.

Truthfully I'd thought about using the plot to implement a Chaos Earth setting, but not Dark Day. Either would be pretty cool, IMO.

I thought of taking things in a nastier direction actually, with the Deevyls (or any other group that catches my fancy) trying to bring a controlled Chaos Earth setting, with the Nightlords running indirect interference but actually gunning for the coming of a Dark Day.

Read, the poor protagonists would eventually find themselves between the apocalyptic fires and the frying pan, so to speak, with the dubious blessing of at least turning Nightbane in one of the bad endings.

[eliakon]

Commenting on what Razorwing said...(note I am one of the doubters)
While it is not as 'farsical' as he attempts to make out, making the plot work does require having certain predicated assumptions in play. Those assumptions are not actually written into the rules so a lot of the argument about it ended up being a clash of Headcanon vs Headcanon.
A good way to tip off the Heroes is a clairvoyant vision. Just like the Edict of Planetary Distress in Rifts, an event that if not stopped will cause the end of the world as known should set off every oracle capable of sensing the future. What the GM does with this, is up to them.

A couple other things that will be very important is to determine the frequency of mages in the GMs setting. Critical to this is not just how many, but also how large are the various magical organizations. There are indications in the books for both mages being very rare, and for mages being rather common....the GM will need to pick one, and what they pick will heavily affect the direction of the plot.

Another issue that will have to be covered is how difficult the GM wants to make it to trace the Chaos Generators. The materials used in them are not exactly common and it should be possible to trace them, especially if you have psychics/mages helping. Figuring out ahead of time what you will do will be important.

Another issue that will need to be tied to the Clairvoyance one is deciding when the group gets to start on it. Getting to work on stopping the plan when its a year out is going to be easier than if it kicks off in a week.

The main issue that I see is that running the book purely as written with out doing any prep-work first results in a rather unbelievable plot...which is basically the argument I had against it before. To be honest I have found that simply the threat of the plot is often enough to get things going, and I don't need to have already secreted generators away in places that it seems they should have been noticed already.....or explain why no one got any warnings. I simply start with the psi-warning as 'issue 1 of the mini-series' and work from there.

[Razorwing]

The Edict of Planetary Distress was actually incredibly vague in the information it provided. It only gave impressions of disaster and doom... but was very sketchy on details like who was doing what and where they were doing it. More importantly though, the City of Lazlo had something that is rare in a modern setting like Heroes Unlimited... access to thousands of known psychics who got this kind of vision... and the means to analyze and decipher these visions.

Such a Edict isn't possible in Heroes Unlimited. Psychics aren't as common as they are on Rifts Earth. Many try to keep a low profile as their abilities are not really understood by the average person who is likely to persecute them for legitimate or imagined reasons (how do you keep secrets from a telepath who can invade your mind without you ever knowing... the ultimate invasion of privacy... and can you really trust them when they say they wouldn't do it?). The visions they get are often more feeling than information, metaphor than data. More importantly... only those with Sensitive Powers are even likely to get such visions... those with Healing or Physical Powers won't be much help detecting such a threat. So even with the psychic population... only a few of these few people have a chance of getting such a vision.

Yes, there may be some organizations that have access to a few psychics (though it is doubtful anyone has access to more than a few dozen) and may have suspicions that something terrible is on the horizon... but even then, they may choose to withhold such information. As before, they likely don't have a lot to go on... just a vague impression of doom that gets stronger the closer the Armageddon plot gets to fruition. More importantly, they likely have no idea who else has had such visions or who they can trust... or even who would believe such a vague warning. Additionally, there are also organizations who might feel it is in their best interests not to tip their hand before they can take advantage of the situation. This is especially true of some Magical Brotherhoods who may realize what is happening... the rebirth of the Earth into a world rich in magic where they would be like unto gods... much more powerful than they are presently with Earth's current levels of magic. For those who feel like the world is leaving them behind... the possibility of turning back the clock and regaining lost levels of power might be very enticing to let the plot play out... and then take over before whomever is running the show can consolidate their rule.

Then there is the plot itself... which is purposely decentralized with cells operating around the world... making any visions that psychics get of destruction very vague on where to even start looking. That many of these Generators are located along ley lines and nexus points that are known to cause some interference with sensitive powers makes it that much harder to pinpoint an exact location for such danger. Add in the fact that many Deevils also have some level of psychic and magical power... which means that they can be just as aware of any psychic warning their plot is generating as human psychics are... and can use that to either lay a trap for would-be heroes or slow things down to quiet such warnings and minimize the risk of being detected too soon.

Yes, clairvoyance is a great way to tip off players of such a plot... if anyone is playing a character with clairvoyance. Unfortunately, psychics and magic characters dependence on an energy they can run out of (ISP and PPE) and takes a long time to recover (the more you have, the longer it takes to recover it all) is one of the reasons many players avoid these Power Categories. Why play a Mage character who can only throw a few fireballs before he runs out of energy in a fight when you can play a mutant with fire powers who can throw similar fireballs continuously for hours without worry of running out of energy? Why play a psychic who needs to meditate for days after a fight when you can play an alien who can fight for days without the need to meditate and renew his energy?

Yes, there are many holes in the plot that need to be addressed... depending on how much of a threat you want this plot to be. One also has to remember, this is not the only plot being hatched on HU Earth... there are many other World Threats rising and falling every day on the world that psychics are likely to get information on... and the closer they are to such a threat (as in physically closer) and the closer it is to fruition... it may be seen psychically as more important than a potential threat on the other side of the country (or world) that is months or years away from fruition. This is also something that the Deevils are likely counting on to keep the world's heroes distracted from what they are doing... at least until it is too late (Deevils are a little arrogant after all).

[SolCannibal]

Indeed, remembering that the Minion War and the Deevils' project is far from the only thing - or even the only world-shaking thing - going on in the world can provide considerable smokescreen to their own plot while it builds up steam.

Not to mention even those aware of the Minion War might make critical mistakes of judgement on analyzing clues and threads - why would THIS particular earth or world, not even a powerhouse of mystical energies of the kind usually prefered by supernatural predators - be a strategically important target among the hundreds of worlds and dimensions also serving as fronts of the conflict between Hades and Dyval? Why would it matter more NOW? Bringing this kind of detail to the foreground or keeping it stealthy is the key.

Not to mention a bunch of local stuff and complications that could turn things into unexpected directions or throw a spammer in the works of the Deevils, among other possibilities. It all depends on what kind of stories and craziness a GM want to bring up to its game.

[The Artist Formerly]

OK, just getting around to reading some of this, and here are my comments (sry, Carl)

Complete Possession: How is this any better then Transferral / Possession? In fact it seems much worse. Almost so bad I'd make it a minor power.

Energy Drain & Expulsion: Because you need to touch to drain and it's useless without a victim, I'd make this a minor power. On one hand it's a minor attack power (the drain), on the other it's a minor EE power (the bolt). So you spend two actions doing two weak attacks. Can you use this like other EE powers, maybe draining two or more victims at once (as long as your touching all of them) and then expel a more powerful blast? Then, it's not clarified, but can the power user heal himself? With this being a major, that better be the case, but even then it's pretty weak since it relies on a victim / fuel. On top of it, you can't drain someone to death! I always find it hilarious that game designers have no qualms about including guns in their game but then draw the line at powers that kill or are too powerful.

"Let me get this straight, I can pick up that railgun and do 1d6x10 damage and you're complaining about my energy draining power killing someone? What if I just drain him down to 13 HP and then shoot his with his own life energy, can I kill him then? How about I just slap him.

Hehehe, first you have to understand that Palladium books has a moratorium on anything that could result in a save or die situation. I'd guess that Kevin was traumatized by a disintegrate spell back in the red box D&D days. Just killing a regular Joe can be fairly difficult to do in a single regular damage attack, you need to break forty points (assuming 10 SDC and 20 hit points with a PE of 10, which is average Joe from the GMs guide if I recall correctly).

[The Artist Formerly]

Commenting on what Razorwing said...(note I am one of the doubters)
While it is not as 'farsical' as he attempts to make out, making the plot work does require having certain predicated assumptions in play. Those assumptions are not actually written into the rules so a lot of the argument about it ended up being a clash of Headcanon vs Headcanon.
A good way to tip off the Heroes is a clairvoyant vision. Just like the Edict of Planetary Distress in Rifts, an event that if not stopped will cause the end of the world as known should set off every oracle capable of sensing the future. What the GM does with this, is up to them.

A couple other things that will be very important is to determine the frequency of mages in the GMs setting. Critical to this is not just how many, but also how large are the various magical organizations. There are indications in the books for both mages being very rare, and for mages being rather common....the GM will need to pick one, and what they pick will heavily affect the direction of the plot.

Another issue that will have to be covered is how difficult the GM wants to make it to trace the Chaos Generators. The materials used in them are not exactly common and it should be possible to trace them, especially if you have psychics/mages helping. Figuring out ahead of time what you will do will be important.

Another issue that will need to be tied to the Clairvoyance one is deciding when the group gets to start on it. Getting to work on stopping the plan when its a year out is going to be easier than if it kicks off in a week.

The main issue that I see is that running the book purely as written with out doing any prep-work first results in a rather unbelievable plot...which is basically the argument I had against it before. To be honest I have found that simply the threat of the plot is often enough to get things going, and I don't need to have already secreted generators away in places that it seems they should have been noticed already.....or explain why no one got any warnings. I simply start with the psi-warning as 'issue 1 of the mini-series' and work from there.

I would tend to agree. The book was written so it could be dropped into anyone's campaign. Problem is that it makes things sort of bland and highly variable. My game world is very super-human focused, taking the everything from Century Station and Gramercy Island while dissolving both of the locations into other places. Magic is a lesser in game force and mostly found in Europe. While Mrs.Taf game world is magic heavy, even though we share the same game elements and locations (the entire group does but everyone has their differences).

[Razorwing]

In all honesty... the Armageddon plot is presented in its current form so that it is fairly easy to insert in most games. Yes, one will have to adjust things to fit the specific game you are putting it in... and depending on whether or not you plan for it to succeed (and how easy you want it foiled) will determine how much change will be needed. All of this of course still fits within the given frame work.

Even if you decide that the Plot was never going to work and that the generators will be easily found and destroyed... it still makes a lot of sense since you can play up the arrogance of the Deevils in charge who have made some very big assumptions and grossly underestimate the abilities of the local super-humans. If you decide the plan has a chance of success, you can make the generators a little harder to find and better guarded... reasoning that the paranoia of the Deevils about this project is justified and that they are not taking chances with the humans (who prove to be annoyingly persistent at times). Both ways of looking at the plot are perfectly viable... depending on the desires of the group and the needs of the game.

[The Artist Formerly]

In all honesty... the Armageddon plot is presented in its current form so that it is fairly easy to insert in most games. Yes, one will have to adjust things to fit the specific game you are putting it in... and depending on whether or not you plan for it to succeed (and how easy you want it foiled) will determine how much change will be needed. All of this of course still fits within the given frame work.

Even if you decide that the Plot was never going to work and that the generators will be easily found and destroyed... it still makes a lot of sense since you can play up the arrogance of the Deevils in charge who have made some very big assumptions and grossly underestimate the abilities of the local super-humans. If you decide the plan has a chance of success, you can make the generators a little harder to find and better guarded... reasoning that the paranoia of the Deevils about this project is justified and that they are not taking chances with the humans (who prove to be annoyingly persistent at times). Both ways of looking at the plot are perfectly viable... depending on the desires of the group and the needs of the game.

It's just a eh... kind of deal. The author wasted too many pages on new power cats and the like and not enough of building the story. I didn't need new OCCs (take the instilled abilites, give it a demonic background, splash some world of darkness paint around, done), I needed more setting. Stronger ways to tie a super soldier, two mutants, a symbiote to the story. So I spend a bunch of time building a bridge for these characters. Then the baddies started in, and the PCs jumped on one of the tangents (that I want to post about but won't spoil for others). Their (the PCs) idea of what was going on was way better and more fun so we ditched the story and just went off on that.

I get where you're coming from Razor, the book worked for you. But for me it didn't.

[SolCannibal]

As an aside on references and inspiration for Armaggedon Unlimited, i would 100% and then some reccomend that people read the old X-titles "mega-series" Inferno, for how it slowly but surely weaves a progressive buildup of events and tensions centered on a major demonic - cyber-techno-demonic to boot - invasion of Earth with a number of superheroes COMPLETELY unsuited to dealing with this kind of threat and that yeat still manage to make it work and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in the end.

Great material to help a gamemaster get itself in the right mindset to weave hooks and red herrings along the way, with the heroes quite unaware that their priorities and main problems just took a 180 degrees shift.

[Sir_Spirit]

It's not the greatest major power, no, but you are overlooking something, in return for needing a battery, you get a power that can heal, as well as harm, not something any other power in the game can do. It's not a good attack power, it is however a great support power. if you have some victem/volenteer with a ton of Hit points/SDC (say a pal with the tremendous SDC power), you can drain tons of life from him to heal your allies. in a beam.

this major power gives you a heal beam.

I hope this answers your questions

So does Grant Super Powers/Abilities if you have a self healing power. Take diving healing or Super regeneration, beam healing.
Also, you can heal and harm with Power Touch.

[Axelmania]

The Armageddon Unlimited plot can easily be re-purposed into a pre-Darkday plot, where the activation of the devices across the globe would bring about Dark Day.

Nightlands indicates Moloch is an enemy of demons and Modeus...

Would this make him a possible ally for Dyval and Sahtalus?

I'd guess that Kevin was traumatized by a disintegrate spell back in the red box D&D days.
Just killing a regular Joe can be fairly difficult to do in a single regular damage attack, you need to break forty points (assuming 10 SDC and 20 hit points with a PE of 10, which is average Joe from the GMs guide if I recall correctly).

He wrote the original Palladium RPG after red box D&D though and back then he had instant-kill death blows and no SDC for the living, and nobody started out with any armor, just 'a set of clothes' which at best might have qualified as either a cloth (AR 5 SDC 6) or quilt (AR 8 SDC 16) or soft leather (AR 9 SDC 20) full suit. I can't see a GM interpreting 'clothing' as including hard/studded leather.

If you wanted to start with anything better you'd have to spend your gold on it. Only the Noble started with enough to afford anything. Plate and Chain was possible for the main classes but would only leave a clergy with 5 gold, a mage with 10 and a warrior with 20. This would mean they couldn't afford any repairs.

Cheaper self-repair for hard/studded leather or chain/double mail or scale/splint/plate was all theoretical anyway since there wasn't a skill for it. Tailor as a secondary to repair light armor would be essential for someone to have, since it halved the cost of repairing cloth/quilt and reduced soft leather repair cost by 2/7 (100 gold per 20 SDC instead of 140 gold per 20 SDC).

Presumably if you were a Kobold/Dwarf you might have repaired the higher-tier armor but there was never a skill explaining how you did it. You'd need a 6th level Earth Warlock (or 4th level Summoner to summon a Greater Earth Elemental) to use the 'Mend Metal' spell, though that never solved how to restore hard/studded leather.

It would also slow them down, meaning someone with a sling could simply damage their armor in a surprise attack (stones were free, unlike arrows/bolts) and then outrun them and go make another surprise attack later, whittling them down.

This could be countered with a horse, but nobody starts with them (not even knights/palladin) and not even a noble could afford them. Even a basic donkey or pony cost 400 gold, double a merchant's starting wealth

In theory it would make sense to give them barding too, to keep them alive, to avoid losing your money. Although in practice, I'd probably just try to kill the rider to keep their horse alive to use or sell. There's not exactly any good rules to reflect the idea of injuring the horse so it will throw you off. They had decent HP so it would be easier to kill the rider (even enjoying their parry bonus) directly than to kill the horse first and then the rider with their standard parry.

Warriors were also the only ones who could select a weapon of choice, others only got a knife and would have to buy anything else.

So does Grant Super Powers/Abilities if you have a self healing power. Take diving healing or Super regeneration, beam healing. Also, you can heal and harm with Power Touch.

Energy Drain & Expulsion: Life Source from Armageddon page 15 too.

I know Super Regeneration is AU Galaxy Guide 223 (perfect combo for Grant since it offsets the HP drain from using it) but where's this Beam Healing?

[The Artist Formerly]

As an aside on references and inspiration for Armaggedon Unlimited, i would 100% and then some reccomend that people read the old X-titles "mega-series" Inferno, for how it slowly but surely weaves a progressive buildup of events and tensions centered on a major demonic - cyber-techno-demonic to boot - invasion of Earth with a number of superheroes COMPLETELY unsuited to dealing with this kind of threat and that yeat still manage to make it work and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in the end.

Great material to help a gamemaster get itself in the right mindset to weave hooks and red herrings along the way, with the heroes quite unaware that their priorities and main problems just took a 180 degrees shift.

This is basically just D&Ds the blood war. One side opens a front on the prime material, starts recruiting and enslaving, then the other side gets involved. Wash rinse repeat.

[barna10]

OK, just getting around to reading some of this, and here are my comments (sry, Carl)

Complete Possession: How is this any better then Transferral / Possession? In fact it seems much worse. Almost so bad I'd make it a minor power.

Energy Drain & Expulsion: Because you need to touch to drain and it's useless without a victim, I'd make this a minor power. On one hand it's a minor attack power (the drain), on the other it's a minor EE power (the bolt). So you spend two actions doing two weak attacks. Can you use this like other EE powers, maybe draining two or more victims at once (as long as your touching all of them) and then expel a more powerful blast? Then, it's not clarified, but can the power user heal himself? With this being a major, that better be the case, but even then it's pretty weak since it relies on a victim / fuel. On top of it, you can't drain someone to death! I always find it hilarious that game designers have no qualms about including guns in their game but then draw the line at powers that kill or are too powerful.

"Let me get this straight, I can pick up that railgun and do 1d6x10 damage and you're complaining about my energy draining power killing someone? What if I just drain him down to 13 HP and then shoot him with his own life energy, can I kill him then? How about I just slap him.

Hehehe, first you have to understand that Palladium books has a moratorium on anything that could result in a save or die situation. I'd guess that Kevin was traumatized by a disintegrate spell back in the red box D&D days. Just killing a regular Joe can be fairly difficult to do in a single regular damage attack, you need to break forty points (assuming 10 SDC and 20 hit points with a PE of 10, which is average Joe from the GMs guide if I recall correctly).

Yeah, pretty lame that there can be "save or die" stuff in the real world, but not in a fantasy world...Especially when there's RIFTS...with M.D....and squishy humans....no save allowed, just point and vaporize.

[SolCannibal]

As an aside on references and inspiration for Armaggedon Unlimited, i would 100% and then some reccomend that people read the old X-titles "mega-series" Inferno, for how it slowly but surely weaves a progressive buildup of events and tensions centered on a major demonic - cyber-techno-demonic to boot - invasion of Earth with a number of superheroes COMPLETELY unsuited to dealing with this kind of threat and that yeat still manage to make it work and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in the end.

Great material to help a gamemaster get itself in the right mindset to weave hooks and red herrings along the way, with the heroes quite unaware that their priorities and main problems just took a 180 degrees shift.

This is basically just D&Ds the blood war. One side opens a front on the prime material, starts recruiting and enslaving, then the other side gets involved. Wash rinse repeat.

Oversimplification, much?

- Yes, except for the part where the 20th century - even in a 80s Marvel comics version - is no fantasy world where gods, demons & such are, if not commonplace, accepted as undeniable facts of life, instead of the province of myth, religion and conjecture to most, heroes included.

- Or how the X-men as a group had no particular skills or experience with effectively dealing with the supernatural beyond a "pull/cut/blast it apart until it's gone" sort of way...

- How, though all involved directly or indirectly in some way with the matter, the mutant groups of the time were in a particularly rough and disjointed patch, with the X-men considered dead though actually in hiding in the australian outback, Xavier though that for possibly an year or more, the New Mutants in quite the low ebb with Magneto (involved in a number of dealings with the Hellfire Club) as basically their only mentor figure with the Professor & X-men presumed dead, Cyclops and the first team in what seemed back then as a mutant-hunting & containment business in the form of X-factor (and a group of youthful pupils, the X-terminators, of their own) and Ilyanna Rasputin's mounting difficulties with trying to balance her rule/containment of the demonic hosts of Limbo she conquered from her previous mentor/slave-master Belasco and the growing corruption from actually using the power and teachings necessary to do so. Not to mention Excalibur, a mutant team formed in England where half the members were going through some sort of survivor guilt over the X-men's deaths...

- The fact each mutant team was dealing with a plotline of their own - Excalibur trying to deal with weird stuff from Mojo and Saturnine crossing from their dimensions into Earth to hunt down one of them or worse, X-factor seeing through the ruse of a false friend (Cameron Hodge) manipulating them into becoming a propaganda tool for the opposite of what they intended, not to mention crazy stuff with Apocalypse, the X-men trying to find out clues of the demented mutants that massacred the Morlocks and a number of related operations & problems, beside the bunch of personal issues and drama they are wont to do, but also make pretty good fodder for roleplaying and dramatic twists of their own.

So, basically not the same really... Similar ingredients doesn't have to mean same cake, or even that it will be cake. Arrangement & preparation are essential because, well, the devil is in the details, you know?

[The Artist Formerly]

Oversimplification, much?

- Yes, except for the part where the 20th century - even in a 80s Marvel comics version - is no fantasy world where gods, demons & such are, if not commonplace, accepted as undeniable facts of life, instead of the province of myth, religion and conjecture to most, heroes included.

- Or how the X-men as a group had no particular skills or experience with effectively dealing with the supernatural beyond a "pull/cut/blast it apart until it's gone" sort of way...

- How, though all involved directly or indirectly in some way with the matter, the mutant groups of the time were in a particularly rough and disjointed patch, with the X-men considered dead though actually in hiding in the australian outback, Xavier though that for possibly an year or more, the New Mutants in quite the low ebb with Magneto (involved in a number of dealings with the Hellfire Club) as basically their only mentor figure with the Professor & X-men presumed dead, Cyclops and the first team in what seemed back then as a mutant-hunting & containment business in the form of X-factor (and a group of youthful pupils, the X-terminators, of their own) and Ilyanna Rasputin's mounting difficulties with trying to balance her rule/containment of the demonic hosts of Limbo she conquered from her previous mentor/slave-master Belasco and the growing corruption from actually using the power and teachings necessary to do so. Not to mention Excalibur, a mutant team formed in England where half the members were going through some sort of survivor guilt over the X-men's deaths...

- The fact each mutant team was dealing with a plotline of their own - Excalibur trying to deal with weird stuff from Mojo and Saturnine crossing from their dimensions into Earth to hunt down one of them or worse, X-factor seeing through the ruse of a false friend (Cameron Hodge) manipulating them into becoming a propaganda tool for the opposite of what they intended, not to mention crazy stuff with Apocalypse, the X-men trying to find out clues of the demented mutants that massacred the Morlocks and a number of related operations & problems, beside the bunch of personal issues and drama they are wont to do, but also make pretty good fodder for roleplaying and dramatic twists of their own.

So, basically not the same really... Similar ingredients doesn't have to mean same cake, or even that it will be cake. Arrangement & preparation are essential because, well, the devil is in the details, you know?

The two forms of hell going to war with each other over nebulous and ill defined ideology, devyals and demons, is a carry over from PF-RPG though.

[Sir_Spirit]

So does Grant Super Powers/Abilities if you have a self healing power. Take diving healing or Super regeneration, beam healing. Also, you can heal and harm with Power Touch.

Energy Drain & Expulsion: Life Source from Armageddon page 15 too.

I know, that's what I was responding to.

I know Super Regeneration is AU Galaxy Guide 223 (perfect combo for Grant since it offsets the HP drain from using it) but where's this Beam Healing?

The Grant super abilities can be used at a range. To give people Super-Regeneration (from PU1) or Regeneration Ultima(PU3).
At Range.

[Axelmania]

ah okay, thought I was missing an ability named that, instead it's a cool-sounding custom name for this

[SittingBull]

OK, just getting around to reading some of this, and here are my comments (sry, Carl)

Complete Possession: How is this any better then Transferral / Possession? In fact it seems much worse. Almost so bad I'd make it a minor power.

It does have a lot of limitations, but it does have one thing up on it. Transferal/possession works same as a psionic saving throw, which means all bonuses to save vs. psionics apply, as well as any to possession. Complete Possession is a battle of wills, where a person with a strong MA (say having the extradordinary MA minor power as well) has a much higher chance of taking possession of someone, even if they are psychic. the fact that this power is not psionic in nature also means mind block isn't a defense. It's up to you if this one strength outweighs the weakness.

Energy Drain & Expulsion: Because you need to touch to drain and it's useless without a victim, I'd make this a minor power. On one hand it's a minor attack power (the drain), on the other it's a minor EE power (the bolt). So you spend two actions doing two weak attacks. Can you use this like other EE powers, maybe draining two or more victims at once (as long as your touching all of them) and then expel a more powerful blast? Then, it's not clarified, but can the power user heal himself? With this being a major, that better be the case, but even then it's pretty weak since it relies on a victim / fuel. On top of it, you can't drain someone to death! I always find it hilarious that game designers have no qualms about including guns in their game but then draw the line at powers that kill or are too powerful.

"Let me get this straight, I can pick up that railgun and do 1d6x10 damage and you're complaining about my energy draining power killing someone? What if I just drain him down to 13 HP and then shoot his with his own life energy, can I kill him then? How about I just slap him.

It's not the greatest major power, no, but you are overlooking something, in return for needing a battery, you get a power that can heal, as well as harm, not something any other power in the game can do. It's not a good attack power, it is however a great support power. if you have some victem/volenteer with a ton of Hit points/SDC (say a pal with the tremendous SDC power), you can drain tons of life from him to heal your allies. in a beam.

this major power gives you a heal beam.

I hope this answers your questions

Mind block would help in the extra bonus to save vs psionics it gives.