The spells Energy Field versus Mystic Shield

[Glistam]

The Heroes Unlimited Second Edition book offers the level four spell Energy Field and the level six spell Mystic Shield. They are identical in every way save for one crucial difference (two, if using Rifts: Ultimate Edition casting time rules):

1. Energy Field provides a static/constant amount of S.D.C. regardless of caster level, while Mystic Shield provides an amount of S.D.C. which scales according to caster level.
2. If using Rifts: Ultimate Edition casting times, Energy Field can be cast in one action while Mystic Shield takes two actions to cast. Otherwise by Heroes Unlimited Second Edition rules both spells take the same amount of time to cast (two melee actions).

In review of these spells I definitely feel Mystic Shield is still too unbalanced when compared to Energy Field. A solution I am considering is to make the extra amount of S.D.C. which Mystic Shield provides cost a proportional amount of P.P.E.. So for example, if a Level 3 caster were to cast the spell and only spent 10 P.P.E., they would only get the 60 S.D.C. field. But if they spent 30 P.P.E. when the spell was cast, they would get a 180 S.D.C. field.

This is the version of the spell I am proposing, and I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this, either from their own experiences with the spell or just in general.

Mystic Shield
Range: Self or others up to 60 feet ( 18.3 m) away.
Duration: One minute (4 melees) per level of experience or until it is destroyed.
Saving Throw: None
P.P.E.: Ten, up to ten per level of experience.
Spell Level: Six

The spell creates a protective field of energy around the mage, others, or an object. The maximum area of protection is a diameter of 8 feet, which means it can protect a small roomful of people (about 6-8 individuals). The energy field appears as a semi-transparent wall or bubble that shimmers with a blue-white light. The field normally provides a total protection of 60 S.D.C., but for every 10 extra P.P.E. spent at the initial casting the field strength will increase by an extra 60 S.D.C.. Maximum strength is 60 S.D.C. per level of experience. The S.D.C. protection provided by this field is doubled at ley lines and tripled at ley line nexuses. Armor Rating is only a 4.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*nods*
Don't you just love it when the writers converting similar spells don't coordinate the conversions or didn't research other previous conversions.
And both have ARs of 4. Which if it is a normal AR does not block anything.

[Axelmania]

Is there some spell which can be used to boost AR? I just figured it had to be a natural AR, in which case it still wouldn't come into play unless you had something to boost natural ARs.

[eliakon]

Just my two cents worth here but...Mystic Shield is two levels higher. The level 4 attack spell Firebolt for instance has fixed damage but the level 6 attack spell fireball scales based on level, they both cost the same amount of PPE. This to me suggests that level 6 spells are intended to be superior to level 4 spells.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I just fix the AR by the word Natural to it, so it act just like tech Force Fields.

Sort of like how you need to Add the word Robotic or Vehicle to the AR term in HU to the AR mentioned there.

Or

Another fix would be to just omit the AR term entirely from the text, So it acts just like tech FF.

[Glistam]

Just my two cents worth here but...Mystic Shield is two levels higher. The level 4 attack spell Firebolt for instance has fixed damage but the level 6 attack spell fireball scales based on level, they both cost the same amount of PPE. This to me suggests that level 6 spells are intended to be superior to level 4 spells.

So then you believe the modifications I made to the Mystic Shield spell make that Level 6 spell inferior to the Level 4 Energy Field?

[eliakon]

Just my two cents worth here but...Mystic Shield is two levels higher. The level 4 attack spell Firebolt for instance has fixed damage but the level 6 attack spell fireball scales based on level, they both cost the same amount of PPE. This to me suggests that level 6 spells are intended to be superior to level 4 spells.

So then you believe the modifications I made to the Mystic Shield spell make that Level 6 spell inferior to the Level 4 Energy Field?

Yes
Mystic shield was superior
it scaled up DC, but was a level 6 spell
Energy Field does not, is level 4 (and may or may not be mobile depending on how the GM interprets the spell text)
Thus I don't really see a reason to tinker further with the spell...
This variation though does a lot to weaken the spell significantly. Now as written if a medium to high level caster wants to have a potent defensive spell they are going to have to spend a rather large chunk of their PPE to do so....

[drewkitty ~..~]

Just my two cents worth here but...Mystic Shield is two levels higher. The level 4 attack spell Firebolt for instance has fixed damage but the level 6 attack spell fireball scales based on level, they both cost the same amount of PPE. This to me suggests that level 6 spells are intended to be superior to level 4 spells.

So then you believe the modifications I made to the Mystic Shield spell make that Level 6 spell inferior to the Level 4 Energy Field?

Yes
Mystic shield was superior
it scaled up DC, but was a level 6 spell
Energy Field does not, is level 4 (and may or may not be mobile depending on how the GM interprets the spell text)
Thus I don't really see a reason to tinker further with the spell...
This variation though does a lot to weaken the spell significantly. Now as written if a medium to high level caster wants to have a potent defensive spell they are going to have to spend a rather large chunk of their PPE to do so....

As they stand in the books and the rewrite in the OP they are all equal (a fish) till you fix the AR. Cause till you fix the AR problem how much SDC the spell makes is moot if the magic does not stop the damage from getting to what is meant to be protected.

[eliakon]

Just my two cents worth here but...Mystic Shield is two levels higher. The level 4 attack spell Firebolt for instance has fixed damage but the level 6 attack spell fireball scales based on level, they both cost the same amount of PPE. This to me suggests that level 6 spells are intended to be superior to level 4 spells.

So then you believe the modifications I made to the Mystic Shield spell make that Level 6 spell inferior to the Level 4 Energy Field?

Yes
Mystic shield was superior
it scaled up DC, but was a level 6 spell
Energy Field does not, is level 4 (and may or may not be mobile depending on how the GM interprets the spell text)
Thus I don't really see a reason to tinker further with the spell...
This variation though does a lot to weaken the spell significantly. Now as written if a medium to high level caster wants to have a potent defensive spell they are going to have to spend a rather large chunk of their PPE to do so....

As they stand in the books and the rewrite in the OP they are all equal (a fish) till you fix the AR. Cause till you fix the AR problem how much SDC the spell makes is moot if the magic does not stop the damage from getting to what is meant to be protected.

Since most people can figure out what is intended and do not assume that the spell was really designed to do nothing, for a lot of PPE its not a real issue.

[drewkitty ~..~]

That was sort of mostly aimed at a higher pay-grade then you eli.


The problem is that it would take a shadow update or one in the rifter to fix their brokenness in the SDC settings. And I don't see KS or someone else being willing to make the effort to actually do something to correct this.

It would probably help the conversation if Glistam posted an update to the "fixed" Mystic Shield that incorporated the fixes we have pointed out so we can discuss other minutia.

[eliakon]

:P
That was sort of mostly aimed at a higher pay-grade then you eli.


The problem is that it would take a shadow update or one in the rifter to fix their brokenness in the SDC settings. And I don't see KS or someone else being willing to make the effort to actually do something to correct this.

It would probably help the conversation if Glistam posted an update to the "fixed" Mystic Shield that incorporated the fixes we have pointed out so we can discuss other minutia.

Since the only 'fix' so far is to assume that the spell is operating........

[Glistam]

Just my two cents worth here but...Mystic Shield is two levels higher. The level 4 attack spell Firebolt for instance has fixed damage but the level 6 attack spell fireball scales based on level, they both cost the same amount of PPE. This to me suggests that level 6 spells are intended to be superior to level 4 spells.

So then you believe the modifications I made to the Mystic Shield spell make that Level 6 spell inferior to the Level 4 Energy Field?

Yes
Mystic shield was superior
it scaled up DC, but was a level 6 spell
Energy Field does not, is level 4 (and may or may not be mobile depending on how the GM interprets the spell text)
Thus I don't really see a reason to tinker further with the spell...
This variation though does a lot to weaken the spell significantly. Now as written if a medium to high level caster wants to have a potent defensive spell they are going to have to spend a rather large chunk of their PPE to do so....

Ah, good. Then my intention did come across with the re-write I implemented to the spell in my game. Thank you.

[Glistam]

:P
That was sort of mostly aimed at a higher pay-grade then you eli.


The problem is that it would take a shadow update or one in the rifter to fix their brokenness in the SDC settings. And I don't see KS or someone else being willing to make the effort to actually do something to correct this.

It would probably help the conversation if Glistam posted an update to the "fixed" Mystic Shield that incorporated the fixes we have pointed out so we can discuss other minutia.

So far the "fixes" discussed were to either add the word "Natural" in front of the A.R. or to remove the line about A.R. entirely, and to make no changes whatsoever to the original spell. Though I value the input and discussion which led to those comments I hope it's clear why I might not have implemented these contradictory changes.

[Sir_Spirit]

The OPs original fix ignored the difference in spell level. Since this affects when one can figure out the spell on ones own, without being taught or learning it from a scroll or others spellbook that is an important distinction. Since a level sixth spell should be better than a level four spell, I see no need or reason for the OP's stated change.
OTOH, since 4 or less is an autonatic miss anyway, just putting Natural in front isn't doing anything. So, I would get rid of the AR. And work it like the FF power.

[Glistam]

The OPs original fix ignored the difference in spell level. Since this affects when one can figure out the spell on ones own, without being taught or learning it from a scroll or others spellbook that is an important distinction. Since a level sixth spell should be better than a level four spell, I see no need or reason for the OP's stated change.
OTOH, since 4 or less is an autonatic miss anyway, just putting Natural in front isn't doing anything. So, I would get rid of the AR. And work it like the FF power.

No, I didn't ignore the difference in spell level. I was well aware of that difference and even mentioned it in my original post. True, I did not call out the fact that, if the spell were not selected at first level, the Wizard could select one two levels sooner than the other. Since either could be selected at Level 1 I did not feel that was enough of a difference to justify the significant increase in power that Mystic Shield represents when compared to Energy Field.

As the spells are written, a level 6 spell caster casting Energy Field gets a 60 S.D.C. shield. The same level caster casting Mystic Shield gets a 360 S.D.C. shield for the exact same cost in P.P.E.! If your spell caster knew both spells, why would they ever use Energy Field again?

Revisiting this, while I like the flavor of the change I made to the spell in the first post, I think unless I was changing other spells to have variable effects based on amount of P.P.E. spent that it is too radical a change. In retrospect I feel just changing the P.P.E. cost to 20 is probably enough. That puts it in line with other Level 6 spells and still gives a reason for a caster who knows both spells to chose to use either.

[Sir_Spirit]

No, I didn't ignore the difference in spell level.

I can quote you saying there is not difference except for an increase in SDC.
So, from my perspective, you did.

[Glistam]

No, I didn't ignore the difference in spell level.

I can quote you saying there is not difference except for an increase in SDC.
So, from my perspective, you did.

I clearly stated in the first sentence that Energy Field was a fourth level spell, and Mystic Shield was a sixth level spell. You are talking about my remarks regarding the spell effect, where I stated there was no difference between the spells. Would you also like to hit me on the fact that I didn't specify the names of the spells were different, too? There's another difference between the spells I ignored and didn't mention in that part of my post.

I already conceded that I did not discuss how that difference in level impacts when someone can learn this spell. I also already admitted that it wasn't a relevant enough factor to convince me that my initial assessment was wrong.

But I am interested in either learning:

1. If a spell-casting character has both spells as written in Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition, why would they ever choose to use Energy Field when they have Mystic Shield available?

2. Are there examples of other spells which are completely replaced by a higher level spell in such a way that the new spell removes all reason to ever use the lower level spell again?

[eliakon]

There are a lot of spells in books that are made pointless by other spells. And not always a higher level one.
The example that springs to mind is the Sustain spell which makes a whole host of other spells pointless or nearly so.
There are also a number of healing spells that make lesser versions pointless.

[Glistam]

There are a lot of spells in books that are made pointless by other spells. And not always a higher level one.
The example that springs to mind is the Sustain spell which makes a whole host of other spells pointless or nearly so.
There are also a number of healing spells that make lesser versions pointless.

I disagree.

Sustain is a great example of another spell which wildly invalidates one earlier spell (Breathe Without Air), depending on how Sustain is interpreted. I have interpreted Sustain's ability to allow the recipient to go without breathing to essentially be a "hold your breath forever" type of ability. Whereas Breathe Without Air literally allows you to breathe in areas where you couldn't. It's a small difference but it's enough to give Breathe Without Air it's usefulness back.

Healing spells, on the other hand, all have different P.P.E. costs and different amounts of S.D.C. and/or H.P. healed. Even if all of them are known by a single caster, each has a reason to be used.

It also amuses me that Rifts had to be brought into the discussion in order to try and prove a point about spells not being broken. Because Rifts is the shining beacon of balance.

[Nightmask]

There are a lot of spells in books that are made pointless by other spells. And not always a higher level one.
The example that springs to mind is the Sustain spell which makes a whole host of other spells pointless or nearly so.
There are also a number of healing spells that make lesser versions pointless.

A bit of a problem there with your position though, since not every spell is available to everyone so you might not have a choice but to select what you might consider a 'lesser' spell because you just don't have access to or even knowledge that it exists for a 'superior' one.

[eliakon]

There are a lot of spells in books that are made pointless by other spells. And not always a higher level one.
The example that springs to mind is the Sustain spell which makes a whole host of other spells pointless or nearly so.
There are also a number of healing spells that make lesser versions pointless.

I disagree.

Sustain is a great example of another spell which wildly invalidates one earlier spell (Breathe Without Air), depending on how Sustain is interpreted. I have interpreted Sustain's ability to allow the recipient to go without breathing to essentially be a "hold your breath forever" type of ability. Whereas Breathe Without Air literally allows you to breathe in areas where you couldn't. It's a small difference but it's enough to give Breathe Without Air it's usefulness back.

Healing spells, on the other hand, all have different P.P.E. costs and different amounts of S.D.C. and/or H.P. healed. Even if all of them are known by a single caster, each has a reason to be used.

It also amuses me that Rifts had to be brought into the discussion in order to try and prove a point about spells not being broken. Because Rifts is the shining beacon of balance.

Rifts has the advantage of having the most spells for it.
I could probably go through the spell lists of one of the other games and find examples of this as well...
...its just easier in Rifts because it has the most spells.

[eliakon]

There are a lot of spells in books that are made pointless by other spells. And not always a higher level one.
The example that springs to mind is the Sustain spell which makes a whole host of other spells pointless or nearly so.
There are also a number of healing spells that make lesser versions pointless.

A bit of a problem there with your position though, since not every spell is available to everyone so you might not have a choice but to select what you might consider a 'lesser' spell because you just don't have access to or even knowledge that it exists for a 'superior' one.

Since the entire discussion is predicated on people that do know all the spells in question....
After all if you only know either Energy Field or Mystic Shield you will of course use the one you have. We were discussing how if you know both then the one makes the other obsolete. So yeah, in any discussion about 'if you know both of these, why use the lesser' then one can generally safely assume that both spells will be known.