Demon Fists vs Invulnerability

[Prodigy]

Armageddon Unlimited offers the Major Ability: Demon Fists that allows a character to do 2D6 damage "against mortal beings of evil and selfish alignments." Does this mean evil and selfish beings with the Major Super Ability of Invulnerability as well?

[jaymz]

I would say yes as the damage has more to do with alignment not physical toughness.

[Tinker Dragoon]

IMHO, because the power seems be inherently "magical" in nature, it would be able to damage invulnerable characters (possibly for only half damage). Your GM may have a different opinion.

[Razorwing]

No... unless the character acquired this power through some mystical means (Power categories that specifically say that the character is magical or supernatural in some way), then the power itself isn't magical and will not affect those who can not be harmed except by magical means. Super Powers are in no way "inherently" magical. The only way for such abilities to be considered magical is if they were acquired by magical means... and even then it isn't always guaranteed.

[jaymz]

Except the damage is because of the targets alignment. To me that infers ignoring the "physical" per se thus not affected by invulnerability of the target.

[Razorwing]

It doesn't matter.

If the character is invulnerable to harm except by magic... then any damage that isn't magic does NO HARM. A power that doesn't come from someone with a magical origin isn't magical in any way.

Super Powers aren't magic... unless the person using them is magical... and even then it isn't always guaranteed to be magical. To be honest... all super powers appear magical... you have beings that can fly without any apparent means to do so, burst into living flames, control the weather and many other abilities that appear to defy the laws of physics to one degree or another... but just because something appears to be magical, it doesn't make it magic. Unless the power actually states that it by-passes any invulnerabilities a character may have... it doesn't. This power doesn't state it does so... so it doesn't (regardless of the character's alignment).

[Nightmask]

It doesn't matter.

If the character is invulnerable to harm except by magic... then any damage that isn't magic does NO HARM. A power that doesn't come from someone with a magical origin isn't magical in any way.

Super Powers aren't magic... unless the person using them is magical... and even then it isn't always guaranteed to be magical. To be honest... all super powers appear magical... you have beings that can fly without any apparent means to do so, burst into living flames, control the weather and many other abilities that appear to defy the laws of physics to one degree or another... but just because something appears to be magical, it doesn't make it magic. Unless the power actually states that it by-passes any invulnerabilities a character may have... it doesn't. This power doesn't state it does so... so it doesn't (regardless of the character's alignment).

Since when does Invulnerability work against everything save magic? A Physical Training character isn't magical but can inflict some damage on an otherwise invulnerable character, and an attack that harms based on your alignment doesn't seem to qualify as conventional damage that invulnerability would work against.

[SpiritInterface]

It doesn't matter.

If the character is invulnerable to harm except by magic... then any damage that isn't magic does NO HARM. A power that doesn't come from someone with a magical origin isn't magical in any way.

Super Powers aren't magic... unless the person using them is magical... and even then it isn't always guaranteed to be magical. To be honest... all super powers appear magical... you have beings that can fly without any apparent means to do so, burst into living flames, control the weather and many other abilities that appear to defy the laws of physics to one degree or another... but just because something appears to be magical, it doesn't make it magic. Unless the power actually states that it by-passes any invulnerabilities a character may have... it doesn't. This power doesn't state it does so... so it doesn't (regardless of the character's alignment).

Since when does Invulnerability work against everything save magic? A Physical Training character isn't magical but can inflict some damage on an otherwise invulnerable character, and an attack that harms based on your alignment doesn't seem to qualify as conventional damage that invulnerability would work against.

Demon Fist is magic that is why it does Supernatural damage. The Physical Training ability to harm Invulnerable beings uses their "Chi" to turn their punch Supernatural {i.e. magical}.

[Razorwing]

Demon Fists isn't magic... it is a Super Power that affects DEMONS! While it may be possessed more often by magical characters, the power in and of itself (like all super powers) isn't inherently magical.

It is not intended to get past invulnerabilities that would normally prevent damage. Physical Training characters have attacks that specifically states that their attacks does damage to otherwise INVULNERABLE characters. Demon Fists doesn't have that qualifier... therefore if a mortal character who has an evil alignment happens to have Invulnerability... he takes NO DAMAGE. This power doesn't say it trumps invulnerability... it doesn't even say it does less damage to those who have invulnerability... there for it does NO DAMAGE to those with invulnerability.

Magic is one of the few things that can hurt a character with the Invulnerability power. Anything else that can hurt such a character will say so... even if it is a reduced amount of damage. Unless it is mentioned in the Invulnerability power's description that a form of attack (magical, psionic or otherwise) inflicts damage or a given power says so... IT WILL NOT HARM AN INVULNERABLE CHARACTER!

It really is as simple as that.

[eliakon]

We already have Karmic Power which is a super power that is tied to alignment as is not magical.
Put me down for the "its just a super power and is no more or less effective than any other power possessed by a person" with the caveat that this is based on source of powers and nature of person. If your a mutant with Karmic Power, Demon Fists, and Energy Expulsion: Divine Energy you would still be a totally mundane person

I would note though that if the bearer or source of that Invulnerability was a demon then I would say that it would affect them as the power is explicitly designed to harm demons. So it will harm demons, even if they are otherwise invulnerable.....that is after all what the power DOES. But outside of that narrow exception, no.

[Razorwing]

Unfortunately no one is arguing whether the power affects demons (invulnerable or not)... as the power states that it does affect them... and is actually the intent of the power.

What is being argued is that it can be used to harm a mortal (non-demonic) person with the Invulnerability Power without the character who possesses this power being magical in origin... that the power itself is somehow inherently magical enough to bypass such protections.

[eliakon]

Unfortunately no one is arguing whether the power affects demons (invulnerable or not)... as the power states that it does affect them... and is actually the intent of the power.

What is being argued is that it can be used to harm a mortal (non-demonic) person with the Invulnerability Power without the character who possesses this power being magical in origin... that the power itself is somehow inherently magical enough to bypass such protections.

Right. And I am in the camp that says "No its not magic. Only magic is magic."

[Razorwing]

Okay... your original post seems a little confusing (at least the way I read it originally).

Rereading it, I see where I misinterpreted your intent when suggesting that it only bypasses Invulnerability if the target is a demon.

[jaymz]

I see this as invulnerability is invulnerable to what are essentially physical attacks of various types (even then there are exceptions iirc particle beams can damage invulnerable characters) and this power is not "physical" but does damage based on something non physical, your alignment. Thus it should affect invulnerable characters in my opinion.

[Daniel Stoker]

Well considering we never reached a consensus on Psi-Sword effecting someone with invulnerability I'm not sure we'll reach one with this power.


Daniel Stoker

[jaymz]

Likely not.

[Razorwing]

Why? Why should Demon Fists... a power specifically aimed at demons be allowed to trump the invulnerability of a mortal who happens to be evil? Yes, it does a little extra damage to people who are evil... but if one of those people has invulnerability... why should he have to worry about a punch from a demon fighter... he isn't a demon after all.

Demon Fists is meant to fight demons, not by pass any invulnerabilities evil mortals might have.

Let's put it another way... does a person with Demon Fists have to roll above a person's Natural AR to do damage? If you are fighting an person of evil alignment with say, APS Metal... would you let them do the extra damage to the villain even if their roll to strike was below the AR of that form? That high AR value is a form of Invulnerability in that any attack below it does no damage (with some exceptions). Or do you still have your hero with Demon Fists only doing damage (including the extra) when the AR has been penetrated (rolled above it)? It really is the same deal... if a mortal villain's high AR from a power will protect them, then so too would Invulnerability.

Now do you see just how much power you are giving trying to give this power? If it can bypass an Invulnerable mortal's power, then it should bypass any other defense too, like Natural ARs, right? If the villain is evil... it will harm them no matter what... and all they really need to do is hit (and with even the most basic combat bonuses, who can't strike a person an opponent). This means that as long as such a hero can hit the target (rolls a strike above 4) he will harm his target unless the villain can parry/dodge the attack. Not even APS Water, Air, Intangibility or any other powers that make it hard to hurt a person will be effective... because it doesn't matter if they are invulnerable to harm... if they are evil, then this power hurts them. This is what you are saying... this power trumps all defenses because of alignment.

As for Psi-Sword harming such a character... even though it is psychic in nature it is still creating an physical energy... just like a fireball or lightning bolt created by magic... and thus will do no damage (Invulnerability explicitly states that such manifestations of energy, even created by magic or psionics will do no damage).

[Daniel Stoker]

As for Psi-Sword harming such a character... even though it is psychic in nature it is still creating an physical energy... just like a fireball or lightning bolt created by magic... and thus will do no damage (Invulnerability explicitly states that such manifestations of energy, even created by magic or psionics will do no damage).

Well it’s creating psionic energy and putting it into blade form and bio-manipulation says that “The psychic is able to induce physical trauma to the nervous system of others by sheer force of will and psychic energy.” (bolding mine) which sounds like using psionic energy and just more ‘detailed’ poking. So we could argue that neither works on the invulnerable character but unlike magic psionics doesn’t have any qualifiers in what can effect them, “The character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However energy type magic, like fireballs does no damage.” Which makes me think it really should work for both.


Daniel Stoker

[jaymz]

It should work because it specifies it does damage to mortal of evil alignments. It has zero to with physical or otherwise types of attacks. It thus is NOT just for use against demons it is just MORE effective against demons, and since it specifies the damage based on the alignment of the character, to me that means whatever invulnerability they have is not protection against.

It could be argued that this power is "different" just as particle beams are "different" and can actually harm an invulnerable character.

[eliakon]

So the question then is which is it
is it Psionics?
Is it Spell Magic?
Is it a Magic Illusion?
Is it a Magic Weapon?
Is it a Particle Beam?
Is it a Chi Punch from a Physical Training Specialist?
Which one of the listed "You are immune to everything except the following" is it?
Because it doesn't say "Oh yeah, and various other nebulous other things that do 'stuff'"
Especially since now we are in the position of allowing minor powers to bypass Invulnerability (EE Divine Energy does alignment damage too....so it should harm anyone with Invulnerability right?)
Or what about Karmic Power? Do we assume that its abilities to knock people out allow you to knock out an Invulnerable person? After all it is set off by evil so its 'moral power' and not just a super power....
More pressingly Do we allow these powers to by pass all OTHER defenses? Can a EE:DE blast bypass impervious to energy (after all, its morally powered so it should ignore all restrictions that hinder it). Can a Karmic KO an evil robot (even though its immune to Knock Out, its evil so.....)

This is a dangerously slippery slope and at the bottom is an infinitely large can of worms.

[Prodigy]

Why? Why should Demon Fists... a power specifically aimed at demons be allowed to trump the invulnerability of a mortal who happens to be evil? Yes, it does a little extra damage to people who are evil... but if one of those people has invulnerability... why should he have to worry about a punch from a demon fighter... he isn't a demon after all.

Demon Fists is meant to fight demons, not by pass any invulnerabilities evil mortals might have.

Let's put it another way... does a person with Demon Fists have to roll above a person's Natural AR to do damage? If you are fighting an person of evil alignment with say, APS Metal... would you let them do the extra damage to the villain even if their roll to strike was below the AR of that form? That high AR value is a form of Invulnerability in that any attack below it does no damage (with some exceptions). Or do you still have your hero with Demon Fists only doing damage (including the extra) when the AR has been penetrated (rolled above it)? It really is the same deal... if a mortal villain's high AR from a power will protect them, then so too would Invulnerability.

Now do you see just how much power you are giving trying to give this power? If it can bypass an Invulnerable mortal's power, then it should bypass any other defense too, like Natural ARs, right? If the villain is evil... it will harm them no matter what... and all they really need to do is hit (and with even the most basic combat bonuses, who can't strike a person an opponent). This means that as long as such a hero can hit the target (rolls a strike above 4) he will harm his target unless the villain can parry/dodge the attack. Not even APS Water, Air, Intangibility or any other powers that make it hard to hurt a person will be effective... because it doesn't matter if they are invulnerable to harm... if they are evil, then this power hurts them. This is what you are saying... this power trumps all defenses because of alignment.

As for Psi-Sword harming such a character... even though it is psychic in nature it is still creating an physical energy... just like a fireball or lightning bolt created by magic... and thus will do no damage (Invulnerability explicitly states that such manifestations of energy, even created by magic or psionics will do no damage).

You ask "why would it affect a mortal's invulnerability", when the power specifically states "2D6 damage against MORTAL BEINGS of evil and selfish alignments" It specifically separates is power to damage demons, Deevils and mortals. The argument of the effect on A.R. can be argued as in anyone can affect an A.R. with a good enough roll.

Thoughts?

[eliakon]

Why? Why should Demon Fists... a power specifically aimed at demons be allowed to trump the invulnerability of a mortal who happens to be evil? Yes, it does a little extra damage to people who are evil... but if one of those people has invulnerability... why should he have to worry about a punch from a demon fighter... he isn't a demon after all.

Demon Fists is meant to fight demons, not by pass any invulnerabilities evil mortals might have.

Let's put it another way... does a person with Demon Fists have to roll above a person's Natural AR to do damage? If you are fighting an person of evil alignment with say, APS Metal... would you let them do the extra damage to the villain even if their roll to strike was below the AR of that form? That high AR value is a form of Invulnerability in that any attack below it does no damage (with some exceptions). Or do you still have your hero with Demon Fists only doing damage (including the extra) when the AR has been penetrated (rolled above it)? It really is the same deal... if a mortal villain's high AR from a power will protect them, then so too would Invulnerability.

Now do you see just how much power you are giving trying to give this power? If it can bypass an Invulnerable mortal's power, then it should bypass any other defense too, like Natural ARs, right? If the villain is evil... it will harm them no matter what... and all they really need to do is hit (and with even the most basic combat bonuses, who can't strike a person an opponent). This means that as long as such a hero can hit the target (rolls a strike above 4) he will harm his target unless the villain can parry/dodge the attack. Not even APS Water, Air, Intangibility or any other powers that make it hard to hurt a person will be effective... because it doesn't matter if they are invulnerable to harm... if they are evil, then this power hurts them. This is what you are saying... this power trumps all defenses because of alignment.

As for Psi-Sword harming such a character... even though it is psychic in nature it is still creating an physical energy... just like a fireball or lightning bolt created by magic... and thus will do no damage (Invulnerability explicitly states that such manifestations of energy, even created by magic or psionics will do no damage).

You ask "why would it affect a mortal's invulnerability", when the power specifically states "2D6 damage against MORTAL BEINGS of evil and selfish alignments" It specifically separates is power to damage demons, Deevils and mortals. The argument of the effect on A.R. can be argued as in anyone can affect an A.R. with a good enough roll.

Thoughts?

Since the power doesn't say that it bypasses AR nor does it say that it ignores other invulnerabilities that 2d6 damage is just 'generic' damage.
Its not 'good' damage, its not 'magic' damage, its not +5 damage....its just 2d6 damage.
Thus the mortal gets all their normal defenses what ever those are. (Unless we are also going to say that it completely ignores worn armor, and parries, and anything ELSE that could interfere with doing the 2d6 damage). Since Invulnerability says it stops all damage that is not of a certain kind, and this power is not one of those kinds. It does 2d6 damage, which is then stopped harmlessly by the Invulnerability.

[Prodigy]

Why? Why should Demon Fists... a power specifically aimed at demons be allowed to trump the invulnerability of a mortal who happens to be evil? Yes, it does a little extra damage to people who are evil... but if one of those people has invulnerability... why should he have to worry about a punch from a demon fighter... he isn't a demon after all.

Demon Fists is meant to fight demons, not by pass any invulnerabilities evil mortals might have.

Let's put it another way... does a person with Demon Fists have to roll above a person's Natural AR to do damage? If you are fighting an person of evil alignment with say, APS Metal... would you let them do the extra damage to the villain even if their roll to strike was below the AR of that form? That high AR value is a form of Invulnerability in that any attack below it does no damage (with some exceptions). Or do you still have your hero with Demon Fists only doing damage (including the extra) when the AR has been penetrated (rolled above it)? It really is the same deal... if a mortal villain's high AR from a power will protect them, then so too would Invulnerability.

Now do you see just how much power you are giving trying to give this power? If it can bypass an Invulnerable mortal's power, then it should bypass any other defense too, like Natural ARs, right? If the villain is evil... it will harm them no matter what... and all they really need to do is hit (and with even the most basic combat bonuses, who can't strike a person an opponent). This means that as long as such a hero can hit the target (rolls a strike above 4) he will harm his target unless the villain can parry/dodge the attack. Not even APS Water, Air, Intangibility or any other powers that make it hard to hurt a person will be effective... because it doesn't matter if they are invulnerable to harm... if they are evil, then this power hurts them. This is what you are saying... this power trumps all defenses because of alignment.

As for Psi-Sword harming such a character... even though it is psychic in nature it is still creating an physical energy... just like a fireball or lightning bolt created by magic... and thus will do no damage (Invulnerability explicitly states that such manifestations of energy, even created by magic or psionics will do no damage).

You ask "why would it affect a mortal's invulnerability", when the power specifically states "2D6 damage against MORTAL BEINGS of evil and selfish alignments" It specifically separates is power to damage demons, Deevils and mortals. The argument of the effect on A.R. can be argued as in anyone can affect an A.R. with a good enough roll.

Thoughts?

Since the power doesn't say that it bypasses AR nor does it say that it ignores other invulnerabilities that 2d6 damage is just 'generic' damage.
Its not 'good' damage, its not 'magic' damage, its not +5 damage....its just 2d6 damage.
Thus the mortal gets all their normal defenses what ever those are. (Unless we are also going to say that it completely ignores worn armor, and parries, and anything ELSE that could interfere with doing the 2d6 damage). Since Invulnerability says it stops all damage that is not of a certain kind, and this power is not one of those kinds. It does 2d6 damage, which is then stopped harmlessly by the Invulnerability.

That is actually a good point...

[Nightmask]

Considering an Invulnerable character can be harmed by gross physical damage if it's large enough (since they specify something like fiery reentry can cause injury or death to an Invulnerable character) there is justification for something like the Demon Fists power working, particularly since 'the Invulnerable character is only truly vulnerable...' text does not actually mean 'only these things can harm an Invulnerable character', it only means 'Invulnerability provides no protection against these attacks'.

Plus there's no reason to not let this power work on an Invulnerable character, the damage is low and only works against truly evil characters not all Invulnerable characters. It causes harm based on something of a spiritual level which should bypass Invulnerability.

[eliakon]

Considering an Invulnerable character can be harmed by gross physical damage if it's large enough (since they specify something like fiery reentry can cause injury or death to an Invulnerable character) there is justification for something like the Demon Fists power working,

So we are suddenly putting 2d6 damage punches in the same class of overwhelming damage as orbital rentry and nuclear weapons?

particularly since 'the Invulnerable character is only truly vulnerable...' text does not actually mean 'only these things can harm an Invulnerable character', it only means 'Invulnerability provides no protection against these attacks'.

By this reasoning then ANYTHING should be able to harm them, since anything at all can be considered to be 'well its not something your not especially vulnerable to'
At which point we have turned Invulnerability into 'lots of SDC'

Plus there's no reason to not let this power work on an Invulnerable character, the damage is low and only works against truly evil characters not all Invulnerable characters. It causes harm based on something of a spiritual level which should bypass Invulnerability.

Except of course all the reasons not to let it work....
You know the ones like the fact that the power of Invulnerability is supposed to make you invulnerable to stuff.
Or the one that simply saying "well yeah, your Invulnerability doesn't actually protect you from stuff'
Or the idea that equating 'low damage' AND 'massive gross damage' makes zero sense
Or the idea that you don't have to be 'truly evil' just 'not good, and not selfish'
Or the fact that as I pointed out there are a LOT of things that are based on 'spiritual level' which if this gets a pass, do we suddenly give all of THEM passes? (basically this is NOT the D&D 3 "Grant the Holy Damage modifier" its "if your a bad person it does a bit of extra damage")
Other than those sorts of reasons I guess there is nothing against such a house rule.
I mean if you really want to make a house rule that alignments are the ultimate cosmic force and that good/evil descriptors trump all other considerations, defenses, and protections that's cool. It would make for an interesting game....but its not the game that is written.

[Nightmask]

Considering an Invulnerable character can be harmed by gross physical damage if it's large enough (since they specify something like fiery reentry can cause injury or death to an Invulnerable character) there is justification for something like the Demon Fists power working,

So we are suddenly putting 2d6 damage punches in the same class of overwhelming damage as orbital rentry and nuclear weapons?

If you're going to respond respond to the entire comment in its entirety rather than cutting it up and removing qualifying content, since you're ascribing to me something I at no point said.

particularly since 'the Invulnerable character is only truly vulnerable...' text does not actually mean 'only these things can harm an Invulnerable character', it only means 'Invulnerability provides no protection against these attacks'.

By this reasoning then ANYTHING should be able to harm them, since anything at all can be considered to be 'well its not something your not especially vulnerable to'
At which point we have turned Invulnerability into 'lots of SDC'

That's YOUR reasoning, not MY reasoning.

Plus there's no reason to not let this power work on an Invulnerable character, the damage is low and only works against truly evil characters not all Invulnerable characters. It causes harm based on something of a spiritual level which should bypass Invulnerability.

Except of course all the reasons not to let it work....
You know the ones like the fact that the power of Invulnerability is supposed to make you invulnerable to stuff.
Or the one that simply saying "well yeah, your Invulnerability doesn't actually protect you from stuff'
Or the idea that equating 'low damage' AND 'massive gross damage' makes zero sense
Or the idea that you don't have to be 'truly evil' just 'not good, and not selfish'
Or the fact that as I pointed out there are a LOT of things that are based on 'spiritual level' which if this gets a pass, do we suddenly give all of THEM passes? (basically this is NOT the D&D 3 "Grant the Holy Damage modifier" its "if your a bad person it does a bit of extra damage")
Other than those sorts of reasons I guess there is nothing against such a house rule.
I mean if you really want to make a house rule that alignments are the ultimate cosmic force and that good/evil descriptors trump all other considerations, defenses, and protections that's cool. It would make for an interesting game....but its not the game that is written.

Making you invulnerable to stuff doesn't mean it makes you invulnerable to all stuff.

Invulnerability doesn't protect you from all stuff, pointing that out doesn't equate to saying it protects against nothing.

No effort was made to equate low damage with massive damage other than by you, that's your strawman to dismiss one example noting that Invulnerability doesn't actually make you totally invulnerable and can still be harmed even by things not on the specific exception list that bypass it.

No idea where you get the idea I said anything about it affecting others who weren't truly evil.

Whether or not there are other things that deal damage on a spiritual level isn't really relevant, the discussion is about THIS particular super-power and how IT deals damage in a spiritual fashion. Given Invulnerability doesn't provide any protection against spiritual attacks and only protects against physical damage there's no reason it should be able to protect against an attack that deals its damage by directly attacking the person's spirit since Invulnerability doesn't apply to it.

The game as written doesn't make Invulnerability a 'protects against everything including spiritual attacks' power like you're wanting to house rule it either, in fact the exception list makes it pretty clear that Invulnerability provides no protection against it at all since the attack isn't physical it's spiritual. So that strawman you try to attach to things so you can easily knock it down fails in its entirety since no such claims were ever made except by you.

[SpiritInterface]

Demon Fists isn't magic... it is a Super Power that affects DEMONS! While it may be possessed more often by magical characters, the power in and of itself (like all super powers) isn't inherently magical.

It is not intended to get past invulnerabilities that would normally prevent damage. Physical Training characters have attacks that specifically states that their attacks does damage to otherwise INVULNERABLE characters. Demon Fists doesn't have that qualifier... therefore if a mortal character who has an evil alignment happens to have Invulnerability... he takes NO DAMAGE. This power doesn't say it trumps invulnerability... it doesn't even say it does less damage to those who have invulnerability... there for it does NO DAMAGE to those with invulnerability.

Magic is one of the few things that can hurt a character with the Invulnerability power. Anything else that can hurt such a character will say so... even if it is a reduced amount of damage. Unless it is mentioned in the Invulnerability power's description that a form of attack (magical, psionic or otherwise) inflicts damage or a given power says so... IT WILL NOT HARM AN INVULNERABLE CHARACTER!

It really is as simple as that.

All Supernatural Strength Damage is Magic!

[eliakon]

Considering an Invulnerable character can be harmed by gross physical damage if it's large enough (since they specify something like fiery reentry can cause injury or death to an Invulnerable character) there is justification for something like the Demon Fists power working,

So we are suddenly putting 2d6 damage punches in the same class of overwhelming damage as orbital rentry and nuclear weapons?

If you're going to respond respond to the entire comment in its entirety rather than cutting it up and removing qualifying content, since you're ascribing to me something I at no point said.

Ummm because your making multiple points and I'm addressing them one at a time?
And yah its releivent because your linking the punch from Demon Fists to the same overwhelming capability as orbital rentry since your citing the later as the reason that you can overcome invulnerability with enough force (implying that Demon Fists is 'enough force')

particularly since 'the Invulnerable character is only truly vulnerable...' text does not actually mean 'only these things can harm an Invulnerable character', it only means 'Invulnerability provides no protection against these attacks'.

By this reasoning then ANYTHING should be able to harm them, since anything at all can be considered to be 'well its not something your not especially vulnerable to'
At which point we have turned Invulnerability into 'lots of SDC'

That's YOUR reasoning, not MY reasoning.

Its basically the extension of your reasoning though.
When we have as a premise 'Invulnerability does not mean your invulnerable' and the second premise "Invulnerability provides no specific protection from attacks so as to allow attacks to by pass it when needed' the conclusion is "more or less anything can start to by pass it" Especially if we are allowing a 2d6 punch to be 'overwhelming force'

Plus there's no reason to not let this power work on an Invulnerable character, the damage is low and only works against truly evil characters not all Invulnerable characters. It causes harm based on something of a spiritual level which should bypass Invulnerability.

Except of course all the reasons not to let it work....
You know the ones like the fact that the power of Invulnerability is supposed to make you invulnerable to stuff.
Or the one that simply saying "well yeah, your Invulnerability doesn't actually protect you from stuff'
Or the idea that equating 'low damage' AND 'massive gross damage' makes zero sense
Or the idea that you don't have to be 'truly evil' just 'not good, and not selfish'
Or the fact that as I pointed out there are a LOT of things that are based on 'spiritual level' which if this gets a pass, do we suddenly give all of THEM passes? (basically this is NOT the D&D 3 "Grant the Holy Damage modifier" its "if your a bad person it does a bit of extra damage")
Other than those sorts of reasons I guess there is nothing against such a house rule.
I mean if you really want to make a house rule that alignments are the ultimate cosmic force and that good/evil descriptors trump all other considerations, defenses, and protections that's cool. It would make for an interesting game....but its not the game that is written.

Making you invulnerable to stuff doesn't mean it makes you invulnerable to all stuff.

Invulnerability doesn't protect you from all stuff, pointing that out doesn't equate to saying it protects against nothing.

Um when the power says differently I will beg to differ. The power goes to pains to say that you are "an almost indestructible juggernagut. Most physical attacks do no damage whatsoever! This means cold, fire, heat, electricity, lasers, other types of energy, bullets, punches, falls, and so on do no damage!" that yeah, it makes you invulnerable to all stuff that it doesn't say your not invulnerable to. And since Demon Fist is not on the list, is not magic, is not supernatural, is not psionic (and is not spiritual), then its Not On The List.

No effort was made to equate low damage with massive damage other than by you, that's your strawman to dismiss one example noting that Invulnerability doesn't actually make you totally invulnerable and can still be harmed even by things not on the specific exception list that bypass it.

Ummm when you explicitly link a 2d6 punch and the Massive Damage exemption (an exemption that I note might hurt the character. might)....then yah, I would say you equated the two....

No idea where you get the idea I said anything about it affecting others who weren't truly evil.

Because that's what the power says? It says "evil mortals' Period. Dot. End of story. It doesn't say truly evil mortals. It simply says evil. That means anyone who's alignment is not good, and not selfish will be harmed. Doesn't matter if your a little evil or Utterly Evil.

Whether or not there are other things that deal damage on a spiritual level isn't really relevant, the discussion is about THIS particular super-power and how IT deals damage in a spiritual fashion. Given Invulnerability doesn't provide any protection against spiritual attacks and only protects against physical damage there's no reason it should be able to protect against an attack that deals its damage by directly attacking the person's spirit since Invulnerability doesn't apply to it.

Two points
1) yes, it is relevant because if your making a ruling that first off this is spiritual damage, and second off that spiritual damage bypasses defenses then your saying that about EVERYTHING.
2) The power by the way does not do spiritual damage. The power does 'damage'. Its not spiritual, its NOT 'good' damage. or 'holy' damage. Its simply 'damage' The only thing special about it is that it can only affect evil people. There is a subtle but important difference.

The game as written doesn't make Invulnerability a 'protects against everything including spiritual attacks' power like you're wanting to house rule it either, in fact the exception list makes it pretty clear that Invulnerability provides no protection against it at all since the attack isn't physical it's spiritual. So that strawman you try to attach to things so you can easily knock it down fails in its entirety since no such claims were ever made except by you.

Well technically RAW it does
That "other energy" line? I do not see a "except for spiritual energy" line.
I see exemption for magic energy, I see exemption for psionic energy.
RAW it provides complete and total protection from spiritual energy. If we are going to argue what is written in the game....

But more to the point the attack isn't spiritual. Its a punch that has a variable damage. Its not a spirit attack.
If it was a spirit attack it would bypass armor. It doesn't. If it was purely spiritual it would only damage living things. It doesn't.
Ergo, its not purely spiritual. Its a spiritually regulated physical power (like Karmic Power) and not some sort of Smite Evil.

[13eowulf]

My two cents:

The power (at least in my copy) directly contradicts itself on the parrying of magic weapons possessed by an evil essence. This tells me that the power is in need of rulings/interpretation from the get-go, which usually means there will be no consensus.

Additionally any rulings made regarding the power Demon Fists would then also apply to EE Demonic/Deevil Fury and EE Divine Energy, since both also explicitly do damage based on alignment. These powers also give us two points of reference in addition to Demon Fists regarding damage via alignment, and neither explicitly reference bypassing Invulnerability.

What I am seeing is a lot of what Demon Fist isnt.
Demon Fist isnt Supernatural PS (it in fact explicitly has text for IF a character has this power AND Supernatural PS)
Demon Fist isnt chi
Demon Fist isnt Magic (not saying it cant be bestowed mystically, but the power in and of itself isnt magic)
Demon Fist isnt explicitly damaging to invulnerable characters (the previously reference Special Training ability on the other hand is explicitly damaging to invulnerable characters)

My take away is that it is more of an anti-supernatural (anti-magic, anti-evil) power, since it can parry evil magical weapons, and had fire & brimstone immunity.
So to me this power will effect evil aligned demons, even if they have the Invulnerable power, and deevils for that matter. But also, given it affects vampires, it will work against evil aligned characters who's powers (including invulnerability) are derived from a demonic or devil source, like witches, or the variants of the Mystically Bestowed in the same book.

It wont work on Heroic Hellions however, nor will it work on 'normal' invulnerable characters, regardless of alignment.

[The Beast]

My two cents:

The power (at least in my copy) directly contradicts itself on the parrying of magic weapons possessed by an evil essence. This tells me that the power is in need of rulings/interpretation from the get-go, which usually means there will be no consensus.

Additionally any rulings made regarding the power Demon Fists would then also apply to EE Demonic/Deevil Fury and EE Divine Energy, since both also explicitly do damage based on alignment. These powers also give us two points of reference in addition to Demon Fists regarding damage via alignment, and neither explicitly reference bypassing Invulnerability.

What I am seeing is a lot of what Demon Fist isnt.
Demon Fist isnt Supernatural PS (it in fact explicitly has text for IF a character has this power AND Supernatural PS)
Demon Fist isnt chi
Demon Fist isnt Magic (not saying it cant be bestowed mystically, but the power in and of itself isnt magic)
Demon Fist isnt explicitly damaging to invulnerable characters (the previously reference Special Training ability on the other hand is explicitly damaging to invulnerable characters)

My take away is that it is more of an anti-supernatural (anti-magic, anti-evil) power, since it can parry evil magical weapons, and had fire & brimstone immunity.
So to me this power will effect evil aligned demons, even if they have the Invulnerable power, and deevils for that matter. But also, given it affects vampires, it will work against evil aligned characters who's powers (including invulnerability) are derived from a demonic or devil source, like witches, or the variants of the Mystically Bestowed in the same book.

It wont work on Heroic Hellions however, nor will it work on 'normal' invulnerable characters, regardless of alignment.

I was thinking the same thing.

[jaymz]

Which is fine except for the specific line in the power that states it will do damage to mortal characters of evil alignments (thus not demons, deevils, vampires, or characters whose powers are derived from demons\deevils or supernatural in any other way)

The only qualifiers to the power at all is the level of damage done to the type of evil they attack with it. That is it. Nothing about how they got their power. Nothing about who their opponents got their power.

It only says x to lesser demons, x+ damage against greater demons/demon lords/evil gods/evil alien intelligences, y against evil/selfish deevils, y+ damage against evil/selfish greater deevils, and z damage against all evil/selfish mortals. It does not say except "invulnerable" or "non demon derived" or any other qualifier for that matter. The only thing that would escape what the power describes are evil immortals (which are possible thus they are not mortal and remember technically even dragons and even gods are "mortal"), and anyone of a good alignment.

I'm not sure why this even is a discussion. This power is one of the few that really isn't that vague.

The difference between this and Demonic Fury/Divine Energy is that these two powers damage everyone not just one alignment class. The level of damage is what changes. In this case I could see an argument for invulnerable being a protection (though I personally would say no it isn't as again it is not attacking the person's body but their "being")

In the end the damn thing is whatever you want it to be since no one here is gong to come to a consensus on it anyway. Which should surprise no one as the palladium rule set is rife with these cases.

[eliakon]

Which is fine except for the specific line in the power that states it will do damage to mortal characters of evil alignments (thus not demons, deevils, vampires, or characters whose powers are derived from demons\deevils or supernatural in any other way)

The only qualifiers to the power at all is the level of damage done to the type of evil they attack with it. That is it. Nothing about how they got their power. Nothing about who their opponents got their power.

It only says x to lesser demons, x+ damage against greater demons/demon lords/evil gods/evil alien intelligences, y against evil/selfish deevils, y+ damage against evil/selfish greater deevils, and z damage against all evil/selfish mortals. It does not say except "invulnerable" or "non demon derived" or any other qualifier for that matter. The only thing that would escape what the power describes are evil immortals (which are possible thus they are not mortal and remember technically even dragons and even gods are "mortal"), and anyone of a good alignment.

I'm not sure why this even is a discussion. This power is one of the few that really isn't that vague.

The difference between this and Demonic Fury/Divine Energy is that these two powers damage everyone not just one alignment class. The level of damage is what changes. In this case I could see an argument for invulnerable being a protection (though I personally would say no it isn't as again it is not attacking the person's body but their "being")

In the end the damn thing is whatever you want it to be since no one here is gong to come to a consensus on it anyway. Which should surprise no one as the palladium rule set is rife with these cases.

Damage doesn't have to say "but is stopped by Invulnerability" to be affected by Invulnerability though....
That's the whole point of having a protection power. It protects you from stuff.
THAT is why there is a discussion, because there is a discussion on if this damage is affected by invulnerability.
Since by this stance NOTHING would be stopped because they ALL say "does X damage" no other power says "except unless your invulnerable"

[Prodigy]

Thanks everyone for the vigorous debate. Great points to consider. One more thing to consider is that the Invulnerability power was written years before Demon Fists. I would lean on saying the Demon Fist power works sort of like the Demon Hunter's ability to harm the supernatural or the Physical Training's ability of Power Punch/Kick. It was meant to hurt the "unhurtable." JMO.

[flatline]

This isn't a video game where you're stuck with whatever rules the programmers put in the game. If you want something to work a certain way, simply make it work that way in your game.

I don't have the relevant book for the power being discussed, but from what's been said, I would totally let it harm someone with Invulnerability.