Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

If Super Heroes/Heroines & Super Villains are your game, discuss them here.

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The Artist Formerly
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Daniel Stoker wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:Maybe? I quit rifts back when Free Quebec came out, and then I got a couple of the siege on Tolkeen books much later from Hasting used section, but that was still the rules as of then for Rifts as well. I used to tease Darklord about Psionics>Magic.

The rules as I have them for Heroes however don't give such an advantage. In terms of game play, this is significant mechanical disadvantage. In a game setting where fifteen seconds game time can take three minutes to sort out, spending more then half that time sitting on your thumbs while other players are having fun is dull.


Yeah, until a new book comes out with magic in it I don't expect to see an official switch to the Rifts casting, but it's a lot better then what we have right now in HU2. And Psionics does have a lot of advantages but then you have things like Psi-Sword needing you to wait a melee round to summon it and 5 hours of meditation to recover from. In theory with magic you can at least meditate on a Ley Line or use a Talisman etc, but still there are some major issues with both in a Super Hero universe.


Daniel Stoker

Eh, in Rifts, I tended towards controller type psionics, if I needed to fight, I'd have a mind slave kick someone's ass.

In heroes, plenty of legit ways to mix psionics with super powers at a one psi-action to one attack swap. You're not giving up much and you don't have a big mechanical deficiency in play. Even as a pure psioinic, while you have that cost to action ratio (which is an awful mechanic for this kind of game) that's the only big give you have to contend with and you do get some neat abilities and a variety of them that makes the trade off worth considering.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

You're still borked with the ISP regeneration and the cost of many powers though, and a lot of them aren't just one psi-action but losing a melee round like the psi-sword. I don't deny it can be done, but like I said it has it's advantages over magic, but it's got issues too.

The biggest problem in my opinion for both magic and psionics is they're dropping fantasy rules and limits into a comic book inspired universe and they really don't translate all that well. Yes you can bend and twist stuff until it does, but there's a reason why I use the old Palladium Telepathy in my games and have redone both PPE and ISP regeneration.


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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Daniel Stoker wrote:You're still borked with the ISP regeneration and the cost of many powers though, and a lot of them aren't just one psi-action but losing a melee round like the psi-sword. I don't deny it can be done, but like I said it has it's advantages over magic, but it's got issues too.

The biggest problem in my opinion for both magic and psionics is they're dropping fantasy rules and limits into a comic book inspired universe and they really don't translate all that well. Yes you can bend and twist stuff until it does, but there's a reason why I use the old Palladium Telepathy in my games and have redone both PPE and ISP regeneration.

Daniel Stoker
Plus there is a lot of keeping track of numbers you don't have to deal with when using powers. Both psionics and magic have costs you have to keep track of.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

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Daniel Stoker wrote:You're still borked with the ISP regeneration and the cost of many powers though, and a lot of them aren't just one psi-action but losing a melee round like the psi-sword. I don't deny it can be done, but like I said it has it's advantages over magic, but it's got issues too.

The biggest problem in my opinion for both magic and psionics is they're dropping fantasy rules and limits into a comic book inspired universe and they really don't translate all that well. Yes you can bend and twist stuff until it does, but there's a reason why I use the old Palladium Telepathy in my games and have redone both PPE and ISP regeneration.


Daniel Stoker

Eh... okay on the psi thing. Never been a problem for me, but I can't recall the last time I played a psionic in Heroes who didn't have some super powers to go along with it, and Psi-sword has never done it for me as a power, ever (8 ISP, WP Telekinesis, WP Telekinesis paired, 2 vibro knives from Fab Inc, psi-sword can suck it). TK gets it done, much more efficiently, so not really my thing. Most of my tricks for psionic characters is based on tricks I picked up playing Rifts WAAAAAAAY back in the day and works on rules exploits.

Back to the topic, magic is mechanically deficient, and I totally agree with you on the why it is. We have something designed for Fantasy in game about super humans. I'd compare it to dropping a world of Darkness character into a game of Aberrant. Just not a great fit for a game. The spell cap of two spells per 15 seconds is terrible, damage to PPE ratio is poor and requires a great deal of leveling to get to where it will be sufficient to be useful, the power curve is terrible with new spells per level being horrid.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

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The Artist Formerly wrote:
Glistam wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Glistam wrote:Magic vs Superpowers is almost the same tired argument as Magic vs Technology. If you want to punch things hard, or do a lot of damage in your attacks, don't play a mage. You play a mage because you want a unique character with a varied toolbox. A Mystic Study or another character who uses magic spells is a different type of character for a different type of superhero game.

Washed into a group of other PCs, though, it's mechanically inferior. What you're talking about is basically the GM building a campaign just around the mage PC. That puts constraints on the rest of the group. In standard play, the mage character is the weak link, he gets two spells and then waits while the other PCs pound on the bad guys. In focused on the mage play the other players are cooling their heels. Neither are these fun. Razorwing is looking to address the problems, and this is what I've encountered.

The only issue I've encountered mixing mages with superheroes is that the heroes have a hard time believing in magic. That's always been an RP thing though, and nothing to do with the mechanics.

Huh. How big is your group? Does your group tend towards certain themes or play styles?

It was six or so players. The mage usually had to time to at least pre-buff herself with spells. She also played to the strengths of Palladium magic - stealth and incapacitation. Invisibility, Shadow Meld, and Magic Net were her common spells of choice. She was never in it to try and "out-damage" the others. She was there to identify magical threats and play a little crowd control if needed. If not, then sneak her way to a more practical objective while the rest of the heroes engaged in their slug fest.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Glistam wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Glistam wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Glistam wrote:Magic vs Superpowers is almost the same tired argument as Magic vs Technology. If you want to punch things hard, or do a lot of damage in your attacks, don't play a mage. You play a mage because you want a unique character with a varied toolbox. A Mystic Study or another character who uses magic spells is a different type of character for a different type of superhero game.

Washed into a group of other PCs, though, it's mechanically inferior. What you're talking about is basically the GM building a campaign just around the mage PC. That puts constraints on the rest of the group. In standard play, the mage character is the weak link, he gets two spells and then waits while the other PCs pound on the bad guys. In focused on the mage play the other players are cooling their heels. Neither are these fun. Razorwing is looking to address the problems, and this is what I've encountered.

The only issue I've encountered mixing mages with superheroes is that the heroes have a hard time believing in magic. That's always been an RP thing though, and nothing to do with the mechanics.

Huh. How big is your group? Does your group tend towards certain themes or play styles?

It was six or so players. The mage usually had to time to at least pre-buff herself with spells. She also played to the strengths of Palladium magic - stealth and incapacitation. Invisibility, Shadow Meld, and Magic Net were her common spells of choice. She was never in it to try and "out-damage" the others. She was there to identify magical threats and play a little crowd control if needed. If not, then sneak her way to a more practical objective while the rest of the heroes engaged in their slug fest.


Group is big enough that they can be down a player when the fights pop off, that tracks. Still seems like a lot of time on your hands in a fight where 15 seconds of game time can take five minutes of real time to sort out. Epsecially among five other players and the GM's bad guys. Perform two actions and then wait. Also would limit the GM. One would have to anticipate that event and provide more practical objective for the player to engage in. That seems problematic over the long term of gaming. Most of the fights one has to write a portion of the battle so the magic player has something to do.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

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The Artist Formerly wrote:Group is big enough that they can be down a player when the fights pop off, that tracks.

I scale my battles to the abilities of the participants. They were never "down a player" in a fight because of the mage.
The Artist Formerly wrote:Still seems like a lot of time on your hands in a fight where 15 seconds of game time can take five minutes of real time to sort out. Epsecially among five other players and the GM's bad guys. Perform two actions and then wait.

No different than doing a power punch, or any number of super powers which take multiple actions to perform/resolve. Or weapon burst firing. Did you know the power Mental Stun takes three actions to use? So does Energy Expulsion: Plasma! I used the optional knockdown table so my players had plenty of reason to do power punches.
The Artist Formerly wrote:Also would limit the GM.

I never once felt "limited."
The Artist Formerly wrote:One would have to anticipate that event and provide more practical objective for the player to engage in. That seems problematic over the long term of gaming. Most of the fights one has to write a portion of the battle so the magic player has something to do.

My style of GM-ing tends to reward the people who want to think critically - a role which the "typical" mage should excel in.

Like I said, it wasn't an issue for us. Our mage always found something useful she could do, either with magic directly or with her skills. I also had a support structure in place for her. I pulled in The Shadowboard from Nightbane and I created a group called The Telestic Society for her to find contacts and mentors. Both were used to great effect.

Bottom line - I'm not trying to say a Magic Unlimited would be unwanted by me, or not useful. I made my stance clear early in the topic and I still stand by it. I can also say that the inclusion of either the Rifts: Ultimate Edition (and Palladium Fantasy) spell casting times, or P.P.E. Channeling, wouldn't hurt at all either. Ultimately what I maintain is that comparing magic to super powers is the same argument as comparing magic to technology, and should be considered and handled in much the same way. Each excels in different things and trying to make magic do what the other does well, or vice versa, isn't the right solution.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

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The problem isn't that magic is weak... but rather the design of Super Abilities is too strong.

You have mages and psychics that have actual limits to their abilities... while super powered characters more or less have no restrictions on their powers. A super hero with energy expulsion powers can fire off max power blasts every action of every melee for literally hours without getting tired. In fact, the whole exhaustion rules in the game are skewed to be honest (only -2 to speed, initiative and damage and a -1 to parry and dodge after over an hour of intense activity like fighting... and the same every hour).

Seriously... yes this is a game of superheroes and such, but one really should play what they are capable of. There is no way that a hero with an average PE (9 to 12) is in such prime physical condition. Throwing massive energy blasts and such (especially those that take up 2 or more actions) should be exhausting... as is flying or running at full speed (even for super speedsters).

When I physically exhaust myself (from running flat out or such), I am barely able to do anything other than catch my breath... maybe some simple light activity (nothing too strenuous)... and it often takes me much longer to recover from such exertion than I took to exert myself. The game mentions that it about pacing oneself... but can one pace one's actions when in the middle of life-and death combat? Unlikely.

More to the point, you often do see heroes in comic books getting tired and exhausting themselves... especially after combat with big bads. The bigger the fight, the more exhausted even the more powerful heroes become. Superman's fight with Doomsday back in the 90s saw Superman fighting to such exhaustion that he used up most of the energy that sustained his powers (he died as much from exhaustion as he did from his wounds). Less powerful characters are even more prone to exhaustion.

To represent this, I have come up with a more... plausible reflection of Exhaustion. Like strength, there are 3 levels of Endurance that a person can have... normal, superhuman and supernatural. Most mortals, including super heroes will have normal levels of endurance. Some major powers (namely those that grant a person superhuman levels of strength, like some APS powers and such) will give a person superhuman levels of endurance. Some minor powers also do this (like Extraordinary Endurance and Healing Factor). Rarely will a hero have supernatural endurance (usually only Mega Heroes and those few powers that grant supernatural levels of strength or toughness). Now why doe the level of Endurance matter... because it will determine how quickly the hero tires when he exerts himself. But before we go there, we also need to know what constitutes Exertion.

Exertion accumulates whenever someone pushes themselves beyond a reasonable level of activity. In the vehicle construction rules, the speed factor not only tells you the top speed of a vehicle, but also its ideal cruising speed... the speed where it can maintain itself for the longest period of time (going above cruising speed means that you will run out of fuel faster in most cases). Like a car, people also have a cruising speed... a level of activity they can maintain for hours with little sign of exhaustion. For simplicity sake, we will consider this at about 1/2 of their maximum output (not entirely realistic, but we'll give people the benefit of the doubt in this case). This means lifting/carrying more than half their weight or running faster than half their maximum speed will lead to exhaustion. In the case of many powers, using at more than half their maximum output will also do the same. So, throwing full powered energy blasts will tire a person out much quicker than throwing low powered shots. Finally, these rules will also consider combat as an exhausting endeavor... for one is often going all out when fighting for one's life (at least when facing an opponent of equal or greater power).

So... how long can a hero maintain such peak performance in combat? It depends on two factors... his PE score and his level of endurance. Those with normal levels of endurance can maintain peek performance for a number of melee rounds equal to their PE score. Superhuman levels of Endurance see this increased to minutes (4 melee rounds per point of PE) while those rare individuals with Supernatural levels of Endurance can maintain peak performance for a number of hours equal to their PE score. Once this has been reached, they will suffer from exhaustion and will see all combat bonuses (including the number of attacks per melee) reduced by half (round down). Even the maximum output of many powers (energy blasts and such) will be reduced by half as the character is more or less running on fumes by this point. Now, of course, many heroes will continue to fight, even with exhaustion setting in... but the more they continue to fight, the more exhausted they will become. Treat their PE scores as 1/2 their value when calculating when their next level of exhaustion will kick in... and then reduce their remaining bonuses by 1/2 again. In theory... a hero can keep fighting to the point where he is more or less ineffectual (a mere 1 attack per melee with little or no combat bonuses) and where his powers are no longer so impressive.

So, let us show an example of such a character in action. Let's say we have a hero with an impressive PE score of 20 (not too shabby all things considered) and 4 attacks per melee (a trained fighter, but not great at it). Let's also give him an energy blast that can deal 10d6 at most. Now... with a normal level of Endurance, he can fight full out for roughly 5 minutes (20 melees) before he starts to get winded. Once he reaches this limit, he will see his attacks reduced to 2 per melee, other combat bonuses also reduced by half and even his energy blasts will be down to a mere 5d6 per shot. He can continue to fight even at this reduced level for another 10 melee rounds (2 1/2 minutes) before he is seriously exhausted (down to 1 attack per melee, combat bonuses down to 1/4 normal and can barely muster the energy for 2d6 energy blasts). Another 5 melee rounds at this pathetic level of fighting will force the character to bow out of the fight (no more attacks available per melee). The total amount of time it took is 35 melee rounds... 8 minutes, 45 seconds.

Now, let's say that this character had superhuman levels of endurance (not that uncommon for many super powered heroes). This character wouldn't be winded until after 20 minutes of fighting (80 melee rounds). He could keep fighting at half power for another 10 minutes. He can even fight at extreme exhaustion for another 5 minutes (at 1/4 his usual bonuses) before finally succumbing to complete exhaustion after a total of 35 minutes... 4x as long as someone with normal levels of endurance.

Finally... if this character had supernatural levels of endurance, he could fight at peak efficiency for 20 hours before showing any sign of exhaustion, another 10 hours while winded and an additional 5 hours at extreme exhaustion before he had finally pushed even his level of endurance to the point of complete exhaustion... nearly 1 1/2 days of constant exertion to reach this point.

The amount of time needed to recover from exhaustion will depend on how exhausted they are and their level of endurance. Normal levels of endurance will require 1 hour of rest (no more than light activity, preferably sleep) per factor of exhaustion (in the above example, if he fought to complete exhaustion, it would take about 3 hours to recover to a point where he regains his full number of attacks and combat bonuses. Superhuman levels of endurance allows a hero to recover in half that time while supernatural endurance only takes about 15 minutes (1/4) of the time to recover per level of exhaustion.

Yes, this does require a little more book keeping to be effective, but it also highlights just how exhausting pushing oneself (even super heroes) to the limits should be... and can bring even those with super abilities down to the level of other heroes that can become exhausted over time (mages and psychics). Only the most powerful of characters... like Superman or Thor, should be able to fight for hours on end with little sign of exhaustion. Additionally, this doesn't take into account powers that allow one to last longer than one normally would at their level of endurance (which should be factored into the above times... someone with a power that allows them to last twice as long before exhaustion sets in will see this added to the time provided by their level of endurance).

Of course, many fights are not likely to last hours (or even an hour). If the fight with our above hero at normal levels of endurance lasted less than 5 minutes (20 melees), then he wouldn't really be winded by the fight (perhaps it was just a typical thug that took only a minute or two to subdue) and would need only a minimum of rest (light activity, such as merely flying at cruising speed).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

As for Mages and Psychics, the recovery times are woefully inadequate... often taking days of rest to recover after the use of powers.

I am a huge fan of the PPE channeling rules that allow mages to channel PPE per action/attack into fueling spells and think that a similar adaptation to PPE/ISP recovery is also a good idea.

With the PPE channeling, a full blown mage can channel 5 PPE/level per action into a spell. At level 1 they can put 5 PPE per action into a spell... at level 2 it is 10 PPE... by level 10, they can channel 50 PPE per action... allowing them to cast spells at a much faster rate the higher they get while the most powerful spells (the ones costing 1000s of PPE to cast) still require time to channel the PPE into. Dabbler mages like Mystics can only channel 3 PPE/level per action while supernatural creatures often can channel 8+ PPE/level per action (specialist mages can channel 5 PPE/level in the area of their specialty while other areas see a mere 3 PPE/level per action).

Now applying this to PPE recovery will mean than proper mages can recover 5 PPE/level per hour of light activity... and twice that while meditating. Mere dabblers will recover at 3 PPE/level per hour (twice that amount while meditating) and supernatural beings at 8+ PPE/level per hour (and x2+ while meditating). The same can happen with psychics (Major and minor psychics gain 6 ISP/level per hour of meditation or 2 ISP/level per hour of rest/sleep, while Master Psychics regain twice this amount).

Yes, it still takes time for Mages and Psychics to recover their energies... but more experienced Mages and Psychics regain energy faster than those with less experience... (though with also larger pools, this difference may not always be apparent).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

Only problem with channeling is it severely gimps the mages abilities at level 1. After that it isn't too bad until level 8 that they start to outstrip everyone else.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

It depends on how you look at it... yes, it may take 2 or 3 actions to cast a spell, but that also means that they won't blow through their PPE reserves within the first melee round (something that more experienced mages have to be careful of because of how much energy they can channel into their spells... allowing more powerful spells to be cast much faster... sometimes in one action).

Ironically, a 1st level mage may last longer in a fight with this method since it will take two or more actions to cast many combat related spells... meaning his PPE reserves won't dwindle as quickly as a more experienced mage's might casting the same spells more quickly.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

Razorwing wrote:It depends on how you look at it... yes, it may take 2 or 3 actions to cast a spell, but that also means that they won't blow through their PPE reserves within the first melee round (something that more experienced mages have to be careful of because of how much energy they can channel into their spells... allowing more powerful spells to be cast much faster... sometimes in one action).

Ironically, a 1st level mage may last longer in a fight with this method since it will take two or more actions to cast many combat related spells... meaning his PPE reserves won't dwindle as quickly as a more experienced mage's might casting the same spells more quickly.

Nope...
1st level mages die in droves...
AoI? 10ppe... even with the initiative they get stuck in an interrupt loop. And a Mage Superhero hiding until they can call up enough reserves to cast spells breaks the tropes of the genre.

if one is going to use the PPE Channeling rules I suggest a mod of a minimum of 10/action and a cap of 25/action (blowing through spells isn't the issue... a mage being able to go nova and end things decisively on their first action is).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Re: Psionics.

This is a half formed idea, so just roll with it (and flesh it out), but Animal Psionics do not have an ISP cost to use (they do have BIO-E cost to purchase). What would be involved with adapting that Psionic system to be system wide to get rid of ISP? We know that some Psionics can be selected to be permanent (ex. Mind Block Auto-Defense) and impose no ISP cost in the base system (and some classes/races can develop variants of powers with reduced/no-cost).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

RE: The Exhaustion rules... I would prefer a Magic Unlimited sourcebook focus on Magic, and not on introducing nerfs to those who use super powers.

RE: Psionics... They could have a place in Magic Unlimited, if only because I don't think a full sourcebook for psionics would never be in the cards. It would be a great way to both pad the book and expand on psionics. BtS and Nightbane offer some pretty cool psionics and other things that could all be incorporated.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

I never suggested the exhaustion rules would be in the Magic Book... they are a house rule creation of mine that my group uses to make a far more realistic portrayal of exhaustion. Think about it.. you have super powered heroes that can literally go flat out with strength, speed and energy blasts for hours without any kind of serious penalty. Super Powers are too powerful in this respect... do you really think that firing off your most potent energy blast every 2 or 3 seconds for hours on end won't exhaust you... or that running at Mach 1 won't tire you out after a while? The current exhaustion rules doesn't care if you have a PE of 3 or 30... you don't suffer penalties until after an hour of intense combat... and even those are merely token penalties that are unlikely to hinder anyone before combat is over (and having combat last that long in the first place is unlikely). When a game has one or two types of heroes (out of 10+ types) that exhaust themselves faster than all the others (who don't actually do so), one has to ask... are these two types really so weak... or are the others too strong. I feel the others are too strong. Even most tech-based heroes (Hardware, Cyborgs, Robots and such) have some limitiation... even if it is on the amount of ammo they have to shoot with (and even that is easily overcome).

As for the Animal Psionics not costing ISP... that is because they can only be used ONE AT A TIME. This means they can not combine powers with long durations. To use a different power they must stop using the one they currently have active. Depending on how many power they have, this can be a major drawback. They can either protect themselves completely from psionic intrusion (Mind Block) or they can communicate with others (Mind Speak)... they can't do both at the same time. Applying this to humans would seriously limit the power of human Psychics that do not gain the animal abilities that many Mutant Animals have.

As for adding a Psychic section to a book on magic... I seriously think that people are underestimating the amount of material that can be added with a psychic book. Just take a look at Beyond the Shadows for Nightbane to see just how psychics can delve into some rather strange places... like the Astral Plane or the Dreamstream (both of which can be brought to Heroes Unlimited as well). The possibilities for psionics are as endless as they are for magic... both are universal forces that are barely understood... even by societies more advanced than ours (in the context of the game). Both can be used to create civilizations as advanced as Modern Earth... and even more so (The Mechanoids are psionic cyborgs that use psionics as much as technology to terrifying effect).

Ironically... magic is the most likely means that Earth-bound games are ever going to get to other worlds... barring Alien abduction scenarios. Earth level techonology is barely able to take people into interplanetary space... let alone into interstellar adventures. It would take Alien technology to accomplish that (don't let Alpha Prime or her allies know about such things... least you want another incident like the Daedalus Project). It is rare for Super Abilities to provide the ability to make interstellar travel possible for a single character... let alone a group. Magic on the otherhand... can open gateways to other worlds and even other dimensions. It isn't easy... but is a more likely way to get Earth-bound heroes into space (well... other worlds at least).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Razorwing wrote:The problem isn't that magic is weak... but rather the design of Super Abilities is too strong.

You have mages and psychics that have actual limits to their abilities... while super powered characters more or less have no restrictions on their powers. A super hero with energy expulsion powers can fire off max power blasts every action of every melee for literally hours without getting tired. In fact, the whole exhaustion rules in the game are skewed to be honest (only -2 to speed, initiative and damage and a -1 to parry and dodge after over an hour of intense activity like fighting... and the same every hour).

Seriously... yes this is a game of superheroes and such, but one really should play what they are capable of. There is no way that a hero with an average PE (9 to 12) is in such prime physical condition. Throwing massive energy blasts and such (especially those that take up 2 or more actions) should be exhausting... as is flying or running at full speed (even for super speedsters).

When I physically exhaust myself (from running flat out or such), I am barely able to do anything other than catch my breath... maybe some simple light activity (nothing too strenuous)... and it often takes me much longer to recover from such exertion than I took to exert myself. The game mentions that it about pacing oneself... but can one pace one's actions when in the middle of life-and death combat? Unlikely.

More to the point, you often do see heroes in comic books getting tired and exhausting themselves... especially after combat with big bads. The bigger the fight, the more exhausted even the more powerful heroes become. Superman's fight with Doomsday back in the 90s saw Superman fighting to such exhaustion that he used up most of the energy that sustained his powers (he died as much from exhaustion as he did from his wounds). Less powerful characters are even more prone to exhaustion.

To represent this, I have come up with a more... plausible reflection of Exhaustion. Like strength, there are 3 levels of Endurance that a person can have... normal, superhuman and supernatural. Most mortals, including super heroes will have normal levels of endurance. Some major powers (namely those that grant a person superhuman levels of strength, like some APS powers and such) will give a person superhuman levels of endurance. Some minor powers also do this (like Extraordinary Endurance and Healing Factor). Rarely will a hero have supernatural endurance (usually only Mega Heroes and those few powers that grant supernatural levels of strength or toughness). Now why doe the level of Endurance matter... because it will determine how quickly the hero tires when he exerts himself. But before we go there, we also need to know what constitutes Exertion.

Exertion accumulates whenever someone pushes themselves beyond a reasonable level of activity. In the vehicle construction rules, the speed factor not only tells you the top speed of a vehicle, but also its ideal cruising speed... the speed where it can maintain itself for the longest period of time (going above cruising speed means that you will run out of fuel faster in most cases). Like a car, people also have a cruising speed... a level of activity they can maintain for hours with little sign of exhaustion. For simplicity sake, we will consider this at about 1/2 of their maximum output (not entirely realistic, but we'll give people the benefit of the doubt in this case). This means lifting/carrying more than half their weight or running faster than half their maximum speed will lead to exhaustion. In the case of many powers, using at more than half their maximum output will also do the same. So, throwing full powered energy blasts will tire a person out much quicker than throwing low powered shots. Finally, these rules will also consider combat as an exhausting endeavor... for one is often going all out when fighting for one's life (at least when facing an opponent of equal or greater power).

So... how long can a hero maintain such peak performance in combat? It depends on two factors... his PE score and his level of endurance. Those with normal levels of endurance can maintain peek performance for a number of melee rounds equal to their PE score. Superhuman levels of Endurance see this increased to minutes (4 melee rounds per point of PE) while those rare individuals with Supernatural levels of Endurance can maintain peak performance for a number of hours equal to their PE score. Once this has been reached, they will suffer from exhaustion and will see all combat bonuses (including the number of attacks per melee) reduced by half (round down). Even the maximum output of many powers (energy blasts and such) will be reduced by half as the character is more or less running on fumes by this point. Now, of course, many heroes will continue to fight, even with exhaustion setting in... but the more they continue to fight, the more exhausted they will become. Treat their PE scores as 1/2 their value when calculating when their next level of exhaustion will kick in... and then reduce their remaining bonuses by 1/2 again. In theory... a hero can keep fighting to the point where he is more or less ineffectual (a mere 1 attack per melee with little or no combat bonuses) and where his powers are no longer so impressive.

So, let us show an example of such a character in action. Let's say we have a hero with an impressive PE score of 20 (not too shabby all things considered) and 4 attacks per melee (a trained fighter, but not great at it). Let's also give him an energy blast that can deal 10d6 at most. Now... with a normal level of Endurance, he can fight full out for roughly 5 minutes (20 melees) before he starts to get winded. Once he reaches this limit, he will see his attacks reduced to 2 per melee, other combat bonuses also reduced by half and even his energy blasts will be down to a mere 5d6 per shot. He can continue to fight even at this reduced level for another 10 melee rounds (2 1/2 minutes) before he is seriously exhausted (down to 1 attack per melee, combat bonuses down to 1/4 normal and can barely muster the energy for 2d6 energy blasts). Another 5 melee rounds at this pathetic level of fighting will force the character to bow out of the fight (no more attacks available per melee). The total amount of time it took is 35 melee rounds... 8 minutes, 45 seconds.

Now, let's say that this character had superhuman levels of endurance (not that uncommon for many super powered heroes). This character wouldn't be winded until after 20 minutes of fighting (80 melee rounds). He could keep fighting at half power for another 10 minutes. He can even fight at extreme exhaustion for another 5 minutes (at 1/4 his usual bonuses) before finally succumbing to complete exhaustion after a total of 35 minutes... 4x as long as someone with normal levels of endurance.

Finally... if this character had supernatural levels of endurance, he could fight at peak efficiency for 20 hours before showing any sign of exhaustion, another 10 hours while winded and an additional 5 hours at extreme exhaustion before he had finally pushed even his level of endurance to the point of complete exhaustion... nearly 1 1/2 days of constant exertion to reach this point.

The amount of time needed to recover from exhaustion will depend on how exhausted they are and their level of endurance. Normal levels of endurance will require 1 hour of rest (no more than light activity, preferably sleep) per factor of exhaustion (in the above example, if he fought to complete exhaustion, it would take about 3 hours to recover to a point where he regains his full number of attacks and combat bonuses. Superhuman levels of endurance allows a hero to recover in half that time while supernatural endurance only takes about 15 minutes (1/4) of the time to recover per level of exhaustion.

Yes, this does require a little more book keeping to be effective, but it also highlights just how exhausting pushing oneself (even super heroes) to the limits should be... and can bring even those with super abilities down to the level of other heroes that can become exhausted over time (mages and psychics). Only the most powerful of characters... like Superman or Thor, should be able to fight for hours on end with little sign of exhaustion. Additionally, this doesn't take into account powers that allow one to last longer than one normally would at their level of endurance (which should be factored into the above times... someone with a power that allows them to last twice as long before exhaustion sets in will see this added to the time provided by their level of endurance).

Of course, many fights are not likely to last hours (or even an hour). If the fight with our above hero at normal levels of endurance lasted less than 5 minutes (20 melees), then he wouldn't really be winded by the fight (perhaps it was just a typical thug that took only a minute or two to subdue) and would need only a minimum of rest (light activity, such as merely flying at cruising speed).


You're right, for the reasons Daniel and I were talking about, we have a system for mages (and psychics) for a swords and sorcery setting that is cut and pasted into high tech and super human game. The system just isn't balanced towards that style of play. Rather then slowing everyone else down, and add more book keeping to a system that already tends towards a math test, I'd like to see stuff that brings magic up to par with the rest of the game world.

The ideas you outlined in your first post on the thread getting magic up to snuff, that appeals to me.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

Razorwing wrote:I never suggested the exhaustion rules would be in the Magic Book... they are a house rule creation of mine that my group uses to make a far more realistic portrayal of exhaustion. Think about it..

Then why are we talking about it in a topic designed to collect ideas for inclusion into a potential Magic Unlimited sourcebook for Heroes Unlimited?
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Glistam wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:Group is big enough that they can be down a player when the fights pop off, that tracks.

I scale my battles to the abilities of the participants. They were never "down a player" in a fight because of the mage.
The Artist Formerly wrote:Still seems like a lot of time on your hands in a fight where 15 seconds of game time can take five minutes of real time to sort out. Epsecially among five other players and the GM's bad guys. Perform two actions and then wait.

No different than doing a power punch, or any number of super powers which take multiple actions to perform/resolve. Or weapon burst firing. Did you know the power Mental Stun takes three actions to use? So does Energy Expulsion: Plasma! I used the optional knockdown table so my players had plenty of reason to do power punches.
The Artist Formerly wrote:Also would limit the GM.

I never once felt "limited."
The Artist Formerly wrote:One would have to anticipate that event and provide more practical objective for the player to engage in. That seems problematic over the long term of gaming. Most of the fights one has to write a portion of the battle so the magic player has something to do.

My style of GM-ing tends to reward the people who want to think critically - a role which the "typical" mage should excel in.

Like I said, it wasn't an issue for us. Our mage always found something useful she could do, either with magic directly or with her skills. I also had a support structure in place for her. I pulled in The Shadowboard from Nightbane and I created a group called The Telestic Society for her to find contacts and mentors. Both were used to great effect.

Bottom line - I'm not trying to say a Magic Unlimited would be unwanted by me, or not useful. I made my stance clear early in the topic and I still stand by it. I can also say that the inclusion of either the Rifts: Ultimate Edition (and Palladium Fantasy) spell casting times, or P.P.E. Channeling, wouldn't hurt at all either. Ultimately what I maintain is that comparing magic to super powers is the same argument as comparing magic to technology, and should be considered and handled in much the same way. Each excels in different things and trying to make magic do what the other does well, or vice versa, isn't the right solution.


Respectfully, your statement is contradictory. You point out that you weren't limited, but that you pulled stuff from online, other game systems and added specific to the mage character elements to reinforce the build. Eh, that's problematic. Stand alone rules as written, magic just doesn't cut it and as you agree, needs something to make it pop. You also point out that your mage player often used her skills in place of her magic. Weapon proficiencies are skills. That is to say, rather then using the eldrich powers that created the megaverse and allow the instantaneous creation of matter or energy, I'm better off using a 9mm pistol, should some street punk decide he wants my wallet, cell phone and car keys. Or you stated that the mage found something else useful to do. One of the supposed strengths of a mage character is that they have a tool box of abilities and powers.

When you add to those limits, the power point system, the spell-actions per melee limits, the crappy spell duration, low damage arcs at low play levels for a high energy-high action costs, you have a bunch of reasons not to bother with a mage. This system needs a significant rules update, something that resets the rules governing magic to a rough parity with the tech and super power characters.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Glistam wrote:
Razorwing wrote:I never suggested the exhaustion rules would be in the Magic Book... they are a house rule creation of mine that my group uses to make a far more realistic portrayal of exhaustion. Think about it..

Then why are we talking about it in a topic designed to collect ideas for inclusion into a potential Magic Unlimited sourcebook for Heroes Unlimited?

Likely because this is Palladium and we all have a sheaf of house rules we use to make the game system work. Those house rules inform how we play and what ideas we bring to this forum and Razor is just trying to inform us to his thought process.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Glistam wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:Group is big enough that they can be down a player when the fights pop off, that tracks.

I scale my battles to the abilities of the participants. They were never "down a player" in a fight because of the mage.
The Artist Formerly wrote:Still seems like a lot of time on your hands in a fight where 15 seconds of game time can take five minutes of real time to sort out. Epsecially among five other players and the GM's bad guys. Perform two actions and then wait.

No different than doing a power punch, or any number of super powers which take multiple actions to perform/resolve. Or weapon burst firing. Did you know the power Mental Stun takes three actions to use? So does Energy Expulsion: Plasma! I used the optional knockdown table so my players had plenty of reason to do power punches.
The Artist Formerly wrote:Also would limit the GM.

I never once felt "limited."
The Artist Formerly wrote:One would have to anticipate that event and provide more practical objective for the player to engage in. That seems problematic over the long term of gaming. Most of the fights one has to write a portion of the battle so the magic player has something to do.

My style of GM-ing tends to reward the people who want to think critically - a role which the "typical" mage should excel in.

Like I said, it wasn't an issue for us. Our mage always found something useful she could do, either with magic directly or with her skills. I also had a support structure in place for her. I pulled in The Shadowboard from Nightbane and I created a group called The Telestic Society for her to find contacts and mentors. Both were used to great effect.

Bottom line - I'm not trying to say a Magic Unlimited would be unwanted by me, or not useful. I made my stance clear early in the topic and I still stand by it. I can also say that the inclusion of either the Rifts: Ultimate Edition (and Palladium Fantasy) spell casting times, or P.P.E. Channeling, wouldn't hurt at all either. Ultimately what I maintain is that comparing magic to super powers is the same argument as comparing magic to technology, and should be considered and handled in much the same way. Each excels in different things and trying to make magic do what the other does well, or vice versa, isn't the right solution.


Respectfully, your statement is contradictory. You point out that you weren't limited, but that you pulled stuff from online, other game systems and added specific to the mage character elements to reinforce the build. Eh, that's problematic.

I pulled nothing from online. I re-skinned the Magic Guild from the Heroes Unlimited GM's Guide and posted those changes to my Obsidian Portal site. It is true that I included the message board from Nightbane that provides plot hooks and questionable information (the Shadowboard). I have hardly done something that is problematic to either my stance or my gameplay in doing so.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Stand alone rules as written, magic just doesn't cut it and as you agree, needs something to make it pop.

I don't agree it needs to "pop." Everything I need for magic is in the Heroes Unlimited series of books. That's the cake. Looking for icing to put on top doesn't mean the cake isn't delicious all on its own.

The Artist Formerly wrote:You also point out that your mage player often used her skills in place of her magic. Weapon proficiencies are skills. That is to say, rather then using the eldrich powers that created the megaverse and allow the instantaneous creation of matter or energy, I'm better off using a 9mm pistol, should some street punk decide he wants my wallet, cell phone and car keys. Or you stated that the mage found something else useful to do. One of the supposed strengths of a mage character is that they have a tool box of abilities and powers.

I'm really at a loss here. The only skills you can think of for a mage to use are weapon proficiencies? What about Criminal Science & Forensics? Or Computer Hacking? Paramedic? Surveillance Systems? Cryptography? Research? Intelligence? Must I list the entire selection of skills from the book to make the point clear?

The Artist Formerly wrote:When you add to those limits, the power point system, the spell-actions per melee limits, the crappy spell duration, low damage arcs at low play levels for a high energy-high action costs, you have a bunch of reasons not to bother with a mage. This system needs a significant rules update, something that resets the rules governing magic to a rough parity with the tech and super power characters.

I concede this one point - you have made it clear that there is no reason to bother with a mage in your games. There almost appears to be no reason to play any character who isn't designed for non-stop action and hack/slash adventures. In that sense then your points have a lot of validity. A Palladium Mage, regardless of system, is not designed for those sorts of games.

My games are different in that I design my adventures to support action elements as well as investigative and personal/RP elements. Every power category has an opportunity to be useful during an adventure. When they are not directly useful they typically can do things to aid the person(s) who have the required skills/tools/powers to accomplish the goal of the scene.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Glistam wrote:I pulled nothing from online. I re-skinned the Magic Guild from the Heroes Unlimited GM's Guide and posted those changes to my Obsidian Portal site. It is true that I included the message board from Nightbane that provides plot hooks and questionable information (the Shadowboard). I have hardly done something that is problematic to either my stance or my gameplay in doing so.


I don't agree it needs to "pop." Everything I need for magic is in the Heroes Unlimited series of books. That's the cake. Looking for icing to put on top doesn't mean the cake isn't delicious all on its own.

I'm really at a loss here. The only skills you can think of for a mage to use are weapon proficiencies? What about Criminal Science & Forensics? Or Computer Hacking? Paramedic? Surveillance Systems? Cryptography? Research? Intelligence? Must I list the entire selection of skills from the book to make the point clear?

I concede this one point - you have made it clear that there is no reason to bother with a mage in your games. There almost appears to be no reason to play any character who isn't designed for non-stop action and hack/slash adventures. In that sense then your points have a lot of validity. A Palladium Mage, regardless of system, is not designed for those sorts of games.

My games are different in that I design my adventures to support action elements as well as investigative and personal/RP elements. Every power category has an opportunity to be useful during an adventure. When they are not directly useful they typically can do things to aid the person(s) who have the required skills/tools/powers to accomplish the goal of the scene.


Again, respectfully, what you've done is reached out to Nightbane for extra materials. At first blush, looks like stuff from the Rifter as well. That's fine in practice, but the original post is about addressing the deficiencies in the mystic study wizard builds as is rules as written. Most notable is the combat issue. Outside of combat, the mage is basically the same as any other character, nothing special or unique, and doesn't bring much to the table that other builds don't have. Mechanically, out of combat the wizard is the same as any other character. Spell acquisition is a pain in the ass and recharging your PPE batteries is time consuming, but that's an annoyance, not a reason not to play one, simply be aware of the limitation.

In combat however, we very much see these game mechanic flaws. Yes I point the use of a WP, because the 9mm pistol is a good base line for figuring and comparing a character's combat abilities. A criminal science check, a paramedic check, hacking, those are all skills any character can have, and none of them can be performed in a single action (three to four seconds) in the middle of a fire fight. If you want to play a skill monkey build, the genius categories do that much better. Which brings us back to the mage sitting on his thumbs while the other PCs are having all the fun. There is a reason why so many of the pictures from the Doctor Strange movie center around the Doc or the ancient one using magic-fu to slap the crap out of each other (and I suspect Baron Mordo when the film drops).

Yes, you are correct, my fight scenes are high octane events with players having to balance defeating the bad guys, saving the lives of civilians too dumb to run away, staying alive themselves and keeping buildings and bridges from collapsing. They are running gun/power fights between an armored truck loaded with weapons tech, being assisted by other bad guys in a helicopter while the players purse in a 1987 Yugo they had to swipe from a college kid (but they'll buy him a new one, when they get the chance). It's landing a motor bike in the back of a transport air craft after ramping it off of priceless Italian architecture in Rome. It's a series of deck by deck defensive action to keep a "walking undead" infestation outbreak on a cruise ship from killing the current survivors, buying the improbably skilled medical team (who just happened to be on the ship because of reasons) time to come up with a cure before the US Navy opens fire on the ship. I am absolutely in love with the idea that a decade later my players are still talking about some of the events in my games. The underlying point of a Super Heroic game is to be larger then life. Super Human in some way. Not every day boring average guy.

There is plenty or room for stealth and skill applications in any game of Heroes, the mage is neither exceptional nor particularly hindered in those applications. If the goal is to sneak by opposition and hack into a computer, any character can achieve that. If it's to make a paramedic check during a fight scene, then again, any character with the skill can do that.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Things I would include with a MU book….
● The SDC conversions of hard to convert MDC spells. (the MDC healing spells come to mind)
● New Magic
● Expanded Magic section.
● Magic Guilds detailed. for players.
● Covens & Cults detailed for GM's.
● expantion of the Alien Magic section. (because it came up here)
● expantion of the Immortals magic text.
● More options for the weapons of Chaos and Order.
● Include (new) Weapons of Good and Evil.
● expanded Magic Object text. Including a table for what sort of objet it is.
● expanded mystically bestowed abilities
● Magic Tattoos & Line Drawing magic (both converted and expanded)
● magic related skills

Things I would not want to include
◆ changes to the Mystic Study/Wizard text.
◆ Anything Psionics
◆ anything Techno Wizardry
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

The problem with bring magic and psionics up to the levels of Super Abilities... where they can be used without limit or restriction... well... kind of breaks the game. Mages that can cast any spell at any time without regard to the power of that spell is just asking for a player to go into God-Mode... where he can do anything to anyone at any time.

Let's just look at how far Magic has come from the first Edition of the game. Back then, Mages didn't have PPE (yet Psychics still had ISP... go figure), but rather had a number of spells they could cast per day. They could cast any spell they knew... regardless of how powerful it may be... but once they hit that maximum spell limit... no more spells until the next day. It didn't matter if you used your weakest spells or your most powerful ones.

In the current rules, magic is just a little more flexible... giving players a pool of energy they can work with to cast spells (much like Psychics have ISP). Now, Mages can cast spells until their pools run dry... whether that is with one powerful spell... or dozens of lower powered spells. Unfortunately, the amount of time it takes to get that energy back is now hindering... for the rules to recover that energy are almost as crippling as having X number of spells per day. You only get about 5 PPE back per hour of rest/Meditation... yet can have pools into the triple digits (some gods have them into the 4 or 5 digits).

One solution is to increase the regeneration of these energies... sort of like what I proposed with a variation of PPE Channeling. At first level, a mage can only recover 5 PPE per hour; 10 per hour at level 2, and so on... at level 10 he could recover 50 PPE per hour of rest/meditation. Thus, even with a maxed out PPE pool for a Mystic Study at level 10 (assuming a PE of 20) of about 228 PPE would only take about 5 1/2 hours of sleep/meditation to replenish... a good overnight sleep does the trick... as opposed to needing 46 hours of rest/meditation with a mere 5 PPE per hour (nearly 2 days of sleeping... likely spread out at a rate of 8 hours per day... the character would require 6 days of inactivity to replenish his reserves). This helps Mages recover quickly but still doesn't quite bring them up to the level of Super Abilities that don't cost any energy to use and don't tire out the user at all (which, quite frankly is bull $#!^).

Now in my games... we have implemented both the more realistic exhaustion rules (yes, it is a bit more paperwork, but not nearly as much as you think) and this increased PPE recovery rate (Mega Mages and Psychics can get an even faster rate of regeneration)... and both the magic heroes and super powered heroes feel that they are more or less equal.

To simplify things, I keep track of everyone's PE scores and what level of Endurance they have (and any factors that increase their staying power), then as each melee round ends, I place a tick by that character's name. When the ticks equal the PE scores (factoring the level or endurance and other factors), I tell them to reduce their attacks and combat bonuses by half to represent the exhaustion that character is starting to feel. They can then rest for a few rounds or continue fighting (most choose to continue fighting)... in which case I continue to check off the melee rounds until the next interval for exhaustion penalties to be applied. It works remarkably well for us... since each interval gets smaller and the bonuses are always reduced by half each time (rounding down). Of course, I only track Normal and Superhuman levels of Endurance as most fights never last long enough for even the lowest possible Supernatural Endurance to be bothered (our longest fight hasn't even lasted half an hour).

All in all... the Mages and Psychics in my games have more than kept pace with the Super Powered heroes with both rules... and on the few instances when they have run out of power in our longer fights, they started to surprise me with just how heroic the could be even without their powers... by making daring rescues of innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire between their comrades and the villains. They weren't stupid in thinking they could continue duking it out with the bad guys in their current condition... so while their allies kept the villains distracted, they got hostages and other innocents out of harms way (some would even do this while they still had power... knowing that their friends could handle the bad guys on their own for some time). In many ways they were behaving similar to how Black Widow or Hawkeye would when Thor and Hulk takes on the big bads... they clear the area of those who could get hurt before helping their allies who are more than capable of holding their own for a few minutes... and might buy their comrades a little breathing time later on when they need it (such as when their endurance finally wears out, these types can step in and keep the pressure on the bad guys while their comrades take a brief break to recover).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

Moving away from the subject of why people see Magical Heroes as being "Weak", one of the things that Palladium does well is providing specific world for people to play their games in. Unfortunately, of all the various games, Heroes Unlimited is the most generic... meaning that there really isn't much to differentiate a Heroes Unlimited game from say a... Marvel Heroes Game or any other game that deals with super heroes.

Yes, there have been some attempts to give Heroes Unlimited a more specific setting with its own iconic locations (Century Station is a start... giving an iconic city as richly detailed as Gotham, Metropolis or even Marvel's New York City)... but the world itself has very little detail. One of the things I would love to do is explore some of history that shaped the Earth of Heroes Unlimited (at least from a magic perspective), and show that while it superficially appears to be similar to our Earth... it is just as unique and historic as Marvel's or DC's version of Earth.

Of course such an exploration would have to begin with Earth's past... both known and lost. Once we see how magic (and its decline) has helped to shape the modern world of Heroes Unlimited, we could explore some of the places that are still important to magical heroes (and organizations). Throughout this section, we could even show how many of the "known" organizations have formed and also shaped how modern magical heroes behave. Now... as for whether or not any of this would be used in an actual game... it really depends on how much you want magic to be a part of your own games. Of course some of it may contradict what has already been established in your personal games, in which case the information that this book could provide would be considered as optional as any new information that is presented in newer books (how many games that don't deal with aliens or space make use of Aliens Unlimited or the Galaxy Guide information?), but it is provided to give players and Game Masters additional information and inspiration for future games. As the Golden Rule of Gaming states: Everything is optional (no one has to use anything they don't want to for their games).

Now, history in this book will likely be generic... covering eras of time rather than specific dates and even here it will likely note only important developments during these periods of time. Actual events... such as what caused magic to seriously decline throughout recorded history may be hinted at, but unlike in Rifts Earth, a definite cause isn't likely to be stated. This will be done in part to allow Game Masters to create specific events for their own games should they desire, without having to contradict what is provided in a book like this... and to allow all possible explanations from a deliberate attempt to isolate Earth from magical influence (perhaps Earth was on the loosing side of a conflict and doing so was seen as the best option to preserve humanity) to a magical experiment that got out of control (like the Atlantean experiment with dimensional rifts on Rifts Earth).

I have come up with a number of Eras that I would explore in the last 10,000+ years of human history. There is the Mythic Age, a virtually lost age where magical civilizations such as Mu, Lemuria, Shangri-La and Atlantis existed... an era that ended before our earliest historical records... likely with the event that caused magic to diminish (forcing these mystic civilizations into decline). Then there is the era of Ancient Civilizations... an era where the last remnants of the Mythic Age passed what mystic knowledge they could salvage on to other civilizations... such as the Sumerians, Egyptians and even Greek and Romans. Though these later civilizations couldn't match the grandeur of the Mythic Empires, they were able to create their own Empires with the remnants of knowledge from those great civilizations. Unfortunately, with the decline of the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the current era, magic's decline became such that it began to pass into myth and legend. This is the Dark Age for magical history... for with very few exceptions (such as a possible Camelot and King Arthur inspiration), magic was becoming seen as a dark and evil force with wizards being hunted as witches and warlocks. For over a thousand years, magical heroes would have fought from the shadows to protect societies that would hunt them as much as the evils they faced. It isn't until the Renaissance Era that things began to look up for magical heroes as a new revitalization of ancient ideas made magic something other than to tool of the devil (mostly in stories and plays... but it was a start). This leads us into the Modern Era, from the reign of Queen Victoria in the later parts of the 19th century all the way to the current year in the dawn of the 21st. So much has happened in this time frame that while it is possible to go into great detail, it would likely provide too much information. While science and technological development has dominated much of this timeframe, there has also been growing mystical movements... from the mesmerism of the Victorians to the New Age movements. The public appearance of actual Super Beings in the later part of the 20th Century (and reports of such even earlier) has also done a lot for Magical Heroes who no longer need to hide in the shadows of society (though many still do). Of course this leads us into the Future Era of the world... a future where there could be a resurgence of magic... or a future where what little magic is left on Earth vanishes completely (or at least so much that magical heroes more or less cease to be).

I am curious as to what sorts of information in these areas people would like to see explored... have explored themselves in their own games... and just how such historic perspective on magic would be received in various games. This part of the discussion is not to discuss current organizations except from a historic viewpoint... such as how they may have begun and when... not current or future plans they may have. Let's try not to bog this discussion as to the relevance of such information... as such opinions are just that... opinions. What may seem irrelevant to your games may be a source of vital inspiration for someone else's game (such as an ancient enemy that was defeated by ancient Atlantis at great cost... the gradual loss of magic on Earth... now returning to claim what was once denied them). Let us be respectful of the ideas and concepts people present... and not condemn them for our differing opinion on the subject in question. If such should happen, I will move us on to new subjects this book could discuss to end such arguments.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

PPE recovery.
You could just go to the BTS1 Arcanist's PPE recovery. They get it all back with a night's sleep. And only half back if only a partial night's sleep.

Then there is recovering PPE on a Ley Line. I for one when meditating on a Leyline the 1st PPE goes into the mage's base before counting it as temp.-overcharged PPE.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by RockJock »

This might be counterproductive as far as an actual HU book, but how to expand the Mystic Study class sounds like a great Rifter article.

Mages in both my games, and games I've played with have always been able to hold there own. I tend to give them various boosts. Take a look at famous comic mages for inspiration. You have buildings built on mystical hot spots(leyline/nexus boosted PPE regeneration and healing perhaps), mystical items/objects that are below the level of a mystic object power category, but give a background power or two(PPE battery, levitation, mystic shield to protect with a casting, and so on), and all the way up to things like a scroll/spell book to quick cast entering combat.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

RockJock wrote:This might be counterproductive as far as an actual HU book, but how to expand the Mystic Study class sounds like a great Rifter article.

Mages in both my games, and games I've played with have always been able to hold there own. I tend to give them various boosts. Take a look at famous comic mages for inspiration. You have buildings built on mystical hot spots(leyline/nexus boosted PPE regeneration and healing perhaps), mystical items/objects that are below the level of a mystic object power category, but give a background power or two(PPE battery, levitation, mystic shield to protect with a casting, and so on), and all the way up to things like a scroll/spell book to quick cast entering combat.


Mystic Study characters are the easiest to expand upon by allowing more specialized spell casters from other game lines into Heroes Unlimited. Both Mystic Weapons and Mystically Bestowed characters got a nice increase in overall power with 2nd Edition... while Enchanted Objects have more or less been left in the dust. Then there are those heroes from other power categories that can derive their power from mystic sources (though magic isn't the soul focus for such categories). Beyond this... there is an entire world(s) of magic to explore... something that often goes unseen and unexplored in most super hero comics and games (save for those one or two titles that deal specifically with mystic characters). Magic can be just as influential on a game as Aliens or Hardware or even Villains... all of which have gotten their own book focusing on what makes those facets worth the time to understand better... and enrich the unique world that Heroes Unlimited could be. There are aspects of magic that have barely been explored... such as the potential for living mystic weapons and objects (as suggested in the Runes to Ruins article from the Rifter which could be expanded upon for an entirely new mystic sub-category) or what happens to the Golems and Constructs that powerful wizards, priests and Gods empowered to protect people and places that have long since turned to dust... yet another version of the Mystically Bestowed sub-category that could be explored.

How many mystic organizations have been mentioned in various books to date? How much information has been provided on these factions? Not a lot... in most cases only a sentence or two... maybe a few paragraphs if we are lucky. Just what are these organizations doing... and exactly who knows about them (and who works for them for that matter).

Then there is the world itself. Earth had seen the ebb and flow of magic... likely many times. Rifts and Nightbane Earths shows us that magic can make a resurgence, given the right circumstances... both a violent rebirth (Rifts) and a more subtle resurgence (as is happening with Nightbane). We know from Palladium that magic can also diminish greatly (during the Age of Chaos, when the Old Ones ruled Palladium, the levels of magic were even greater than Rifts Earth... while the present Palladium sees levels nearly 1/3rd of Rifts Earth). Where does Heroes Unlimited fall in this scale? Probably lower than Palladium... though higher than Beyond the Supernatural or Splicers (the latter having virtually no known magic or even psionic potential). Armageddon Unlimited showed us one plot that could have resulted in a violent upsurge of magic similar to Rifts Earth... but is it the only plot along this line? The villain Epoch claims that there is a prophesy/vision of a new age of magic on the horizon... is there? What of other realms of existence... such as the Astral Plane or the dimension that Shadow Beasts come from... these seem very closely linked to Earth... could they have some influence on Earth's level magic?

To me... nothing embodies the shear unlimited nature of the Heroes Unlimited setting quite like magic... for the very nature of magic is one of virtually unlimited potential... a potential that seems to be overlooked by the flash and spectacle of super powers or technological innovations... the new kids on the block so to speak. Magic has been a part of Earth far longer than technology... some could argue it WAS the first technology of mankind. As for super powers... magic has been granting humanity such powers far longer (and likely with more reliability) than science or flukes or nature. Magic is by far the oldest source of power for heroes... and though it is currently in decline in a setting like Heroes Unlimited... it is still quite potent and deserves exploration.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

To get back to working on a possible mystic history for the Heroes Unlimited setting, let's focus on each of the eras I mentioned earlier... starting with the Mythic Age.

It is hard to determine exactly when this period would have begun but we can claim that it ended before the first recorded records of the earliest known ancient civilization... around 6000 years ago (about 4000 BCE). For simplicity sake, we will assume (as much as we can assume anything) that this period lasted from 10,000 BCE to about 4000 BCE... giving plenty of time for many of the Mythic Civilizations rumored to have existed to develop.

This would be the age where civilizations such as Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria, Thule and Ys... to name just a few. It is also the age when magic was at its most abundant... possibly with levels rivaling that of Rifts Earth (or at least close to the levels of Palladium during the start of the Age of Elves). It is likely that most of these civilizations used magic as their main source of power and "technology"... possibly to the point where nearly every citizen had as least some passing knowledge of magic... enough to use their civilization's "technology" to better their lives. In a magic rich environment such as Earth during this time... it stands to reason that magic would be as common to these people as cell phones and computers are to us. ironically... it is even possible that these mythic civilizations even began exploring the rest of our galaxy... and other dimensions through the use of magic... something we are barely beginning to do with technology.

The question now is... how did these various civilizations get along with each other. Did they even interact with one another? Given that they most likely used the same ley line networks to power their civilizations, it is likely that they would become aware of each other eventually... though whether these would be friendly interactions or lead to conflict is something that could be explored. What we do know is that more than a few enchanted weapons likely date all the way back to this period of time... indicating that there was a need to empower champions. Were these champions defenders of their people... or conquerors of others? Some enchanted objects may also date to this period... but since most are not sentient like many Mystic Weapons, it is hard to be sure.

The amount of mystic knowledge gathered by these civilizations would have been staggering... with possibly thousands of different mystic practices and specializations. The amount that has survived to the modern age would seem like a drop of water in a vast ocean of possibilities... and shows just how much was lost and forgotten in the ages to follow.

Which now brings us to what possibly ended this glorious age. The most likely answer is conflict. Much like the Elves and Dwarves of Palladium... it is very likely that there was some great conflict that involved at least one of these Mythic Civilizations. Whether it was a war with the others or one fought across the Megaverse is unknown... and likely will never be uncovered. It is possible that the world wide decrease in magic was also the result of some catastrophic mystical experiment gone wrong (like the Dimensional Rift created by the Atlanteans on Rifts Earth). It is even possible that the abundance of mystic civilizations used up too much magic... not unlike how our modern civilizations are consuming ever increasing amounts of natural resources (such as oil and gas that are not easily replenished). Imagine a dozen advanced civilizations consuming ever increasing amounts of magical energy... possibly even diverting ley lines in their regions to maintain the supply they need to power their civilizations). All we do know is that by 4000 BCE, these Mythic Civilizations were no more and magic was beginning to fade in power. For many... this was the end of the common man's reliance on magic (from here on, magic would be a tool of the rich, powerful and influential... or so it would seem).

So... what sorts of details would the rest of you add to this Era to help shape the world of Heroes Unlimited to come?
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by RockJock »

If I was doing a HU magic book I would stay away from more then a timeline, and basic description of the "ancient magic types/races", and focus on how their remnants/descendants affected the modern HU world.

That being said, you already have several races/civilizations like the True Atlantean, Lemurians, Nazca, maybe Native American culture/Shamastic tradition, Red Giants from South America, maybe even something like the Danzi as a few starting points for ancient magic cultures.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

RockJock wrote:If I was doing a HU magic book I would stay away from more then a timeline, and basic description of the "ancient magic types/races", and focus on how their remnants/descendants affected the modern HU world.

That being said, you already have several races/civilizations like the True Atlantean, Lemurians, Nazca, maybe Native American culture/Shamastic tradition, Red Giants from South America, maybe even something like the Danzi as a few starting points for ancient magic cultures.


Those are in Rifts Earth... and while they can easily be brought over... Heroes Unlimited Earth isn't and may never become Rifts Earth.

Each game line has its own unique history... and while some similarities are shared by all versions of Earth... there are also distinct differences too. To make Heroes Unlimited Earth as unique as that of Rifts Earth, it will require looking back at how this Earth differs from the other Earth settings Palladium produces and our own world (not to mention all the other super hero games on the market).

More importantly... when discussing a subject like magic... it is very important to see how times have changed from when magic was at its height of power to what it is now. Unlike many other power categories, the Magical Heroes are the remnants of these ancient and mythic civilizations. The vast array of spells that Mystic Study characters enjoy are mere scraps from the grand buffet of what once was known. The Mystic Weapons and Enchanted Objects wielded by current champions and conquerors are but baubles of the grand panoply these civilizations were capable of. Even those bestowed mystic might are merely the last champions of the remnants of beings who have chosen to stay behind on Earth in the hope of rekindling what once was... and what might be again. No other Categories of heroes will have the same breadth of history to deal with... with both great achievements and terrible mistakes both lost and intentionally hidden... all od which has a nasty habit of being unearthed by those who have neither a clue as to what they are uncovering... nor the power to deal with what they unleash. Even other hero categories will be hard pressed to deal with magical threats... as evidenced with Armageddon Unlimited (where non-magical heroes are at a serious disadvantage in both knowing what they face and how to deal with it).

The key to understanding Magical Heroes is to see their origins... origins that date back to before the dawn of known civilizations. Robots and Cyborgs are easy to understand as their history and origins are fairly recent. Hardware characters may have been around for a few centuries (Leonardo da Vinci is arguably the first example of such a Hero)... while mutants and psychics may also have been around for as long as magic... though not in as great as numbers as they are now. Magic on the other hand... practically screams of ancient and forbidden knowledge lost to the sands of time.

Besides... I have no intention of creating a timeline that outlines every important event for the last 15-20 thousand years... it would take up far too much space (just look at the history of the Western Empire from Palladium Fantasy... 6000 years of history condensed into 3 or 4 pages). No... when looking back at the history of magic on Earth for Heroes Unlimited, my focus will be in the broadest strokes possible... more to provide story ideas and character hooks than to detail events. This is to allow players and GMs the freedom to determine for themselves what happened during these eras without having to deal with canon events that may interfere with their games. You want your character to have uncovered a mystic weapon that dates back all the way to Ancient Atlantis... there you go. Your character was created by one of the High Priests in service to an ancient Pharaoh to protect his ancient tomb... a tomb that has since been defiled by others... why not? You want to be part of a tradition that was started by the actual Merlin of Arthurian Legend... sounds great. No other hero category has such a connection to history... and thus discussing magic will require discussing the mystic history of the setting. Your character may be a part of the modern world, but the power he wields is likely very ancient... dating back hundreds if not thousands of years.

If all I wanted to do was copy and paste what others have done in other game lines... well... that wouldn't really be exploring anything new as it has already been done in other game lines. No... a Magic Unlimited book for Heroes Unlimited needs to explore new possibilities that directly relate to the world of Heroes Unlimited... and not make things from Rifts, Palladium or even Beyond the Supernatural fit into this setting. While they can be brought in easily enough... they were made for different settings (science fantasy, fantasy and horror respectively)... not for a Super Hero setting. Heroes Unlimited may allow for virtually any kind of super hero story you want to play... but that doesn't mean it has to be a kitchen sink filled with the left overs from other settings. It deserves the same respect and service to its own unique flavor of adventure that the other settings get. While magic is a universal force through out most of Palladium's various settings, each setting has a unique flavor to it. Beyond the Supernatural and Nightbane deal with the horrors that magic can unleash... while Palladium Fantasy deals with a more... well... fantastic version of magic, the kind you see in the works of Tolkien and even Terry Brooks. Rifts shows a clash between powerful magics and super science, but Heroes Unlimited is about modern heroes in a world we can somewhat understand and relate to. Thus, Magic Unlimited should try to help us understand the role of magic from a hero's perspective... where mystic heroes come from is the start of that understanding.

To quote a famous saying... "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." Never has that saying held more importance to heroes than it does with the various mystic heroes... for it is arguable that magic has the longest history and traditions of any power category... and their achievements and their mistakes have the longest reach. No other category can lead to as much adventure as delving into the past of magic can. Indiana Jones and Lara Croft are often confronted with ancient relics of unspeakable power that were created in ancient times, yet cause problems for modern heroes to deal with. Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate both deal with ancient enemies that have sought to dominate the world for thousands of years (and are merely the latest in a long line of protectors to hold their positions). Excalibur and Mjolnir are weapons of both great power and long pasts.

To put it bluntly... one can not discuss the topic of magic without delving into history. This doesn't mean creating a detailed timeline... but it does require discussion of what came before the modern world we live in.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

One of the things I have found useful in games is that a few 'throw away lines' can be amazingly powerful...
One of my games for instance I had in my time line
1923 Great Kanto Earthquake. First known appearance of a Magic Girl (Cherry Heart, and Twilight Kiss)

It was a total throw away bit put there because I liked magic girls and wanted to have them in the game... but a player ran with it and ended up basing their character off of it... and writing up a submission on the nature of "Magic Girl Magic" that we ended up using that became a plot point of that campaign.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

eliakon wrote:One of the things I have found useful in games is that a few 'throw away lines' can be amazingly powerful...
One of my games for instance I had in my time line
1923 Great Kanto Earthquake. First known appearance of a Magic Girl (Cherry Heart, and Twilight Kiss)

It was a total throw away bit put there because I liked magic girls and wanted to have them in the game... but a player ran with it and ended up basing their character off of it... and writing up a submission on the nature of "Magic Girl Magic" that we ended up using that became a plot point of that campaign.


This is the sort of thing I am talking about... little hooks that players and GMs can use or discard for their games without having to worry about whether or not it was a vital part of the game (canon, if you will). I am not trying to give a detailed history of Heroes Unlimited... but rather just trying to flesh out some of the more colorful areas that magical characters may choose to focus on.

One of the new concepts I am working on are Bestowed Constructs... golems and such if you will that have been imbued with magical power by sorcerers, priests and even gods... but that is not the only way such a character could be used. Imagine a steampunk-like mad scientist during the Victorian Age robbing graves to find the right parts to make his own construct... a being as much flesh as it is metal. Or the adventurous archaeologist who discovers an ancient tomb long believed myth... and awakes a guardian put there to protect it and the treasures that have long been stolen. What of the Golems that have been created throughout the centuries to protect villages and ethnic groups who had no other protectors. All of these characters come from ideas based on a past tradition of magic passed down through the ages... some may be the last of such traditions... other merely the latest link.

Just as Mystic Weapons and Enchanted Objects can come from virtually any time period... most are likely to be centuries or millennia old... and discovering their origins may be part of a character's concept. Why does the sword that claims it originated from Atlantis have such a big grudge against the scythe from Mu? Does this scarab truly originate from Ancient Egypt... or is it far older than that. Just who is this mysterious being that is granting a person such wondrous powers... and is their an ulterior motive for the missions that person is sent on? Only by exploring the history of the setting... both provided and that which players and GMs decide upon... can such answers be found.

Now... what kind of hooks would the rest of you put with in the broad time frames I have established. The Mythic Age is from about 15000 BCE to about 4000 BDC. The Ancient Age is from about 3500 BCE to about 400 AD. The Dark Age is from about 500 AD to 1400 AD. The Renaissance Age is from 1400 AD to 1900 AD. The Modern Age covers the 20th and early 21st centuries and finally the Future Age will be everything from the mid 21st century onward (likely with multiple paths the future may take). These are just broad dates... and are somewhat fluid.

Most of the legendary civilizations that could have given rise to the earliest traditions of magic would likely come from the Mythic Age... when Atlantis (not to be confused with the Atlantis of Rifts Earth) and other similar civilizations rose to power. Magic would likely continue to be practiced openly (though not commonly) through out the Ancient Age as well... only beginning to fade into the shadows near the end of this age with the rise of Christianity. The Dark Age would likely see most magical traditions being hunted down and purged... not unlike the Millennium of Purification seen on Palladium. During the Renaissance, mysticism and magic would be see an upsurge in popularity once more... but more as something tantalizingly dark and forbidden... something people tolerate out of necessity and curiosity but not condoning or encouraging (and remains mysterious). It isn't until the Modern Age with the ride of modern Heroes that magic is once again practiced somewhat openly... though it still remains dark and mysterious with most believing that is something only a few "chosen" individuals can do.

These are the eras that are most likely to have some influence upon a Mystic Hero's origins and abilities... and as such need to be explored to some degree. Maybe that witch your group is hunting is the latest in a line that sold their futures to some dark power so that they would be spared from the Plague during the Dark Age... with one member from each generation taking on the curse of their family line to do as their dark patron desires. Maybe the amulet a hero wears was made as a balance to this dark force... given to another in the hope that the wearer could keep their dark cousin from doing lasting harm. Maybe a sorcerer is the latest to follow in the tradition of Merlin or even Morgana leFay... and is sworn to protect or destroy the one who wields the legendary sword Excalibur (or Calburn... depending on which of Arthur's swords one wants to use). Every Magical Hero will have some connection to a past time through their powers... if not their very origin... and it would likely help many players to flesh out the mystic history of Heroes Unlimited... even if much of it remains lost or appears contradictory (like in Nightbane when discussing the origins of the Nightbane).

Remember, this will be just one small part of such a book though... more flavor and fluff to add spice to a game. No book should just be about rules, mechanics and powers... but should add to the setting to some degree as well. Century Station wouldn't have been nearly as interesting a book if all it did was give out locations and maps of a city rather than describe entire neighborhoods and the people that inhabit them. It gave a flavor to the city that mere rules and mechanics wouldn't. Yes, you have your typical Avengers-like team that are the city's champions, but they are fleshed out individuals with a past connected to their setting... something I hope a book like this would help players achieve with magical characters in the same way that Aliens Unlimited did with Alien Characters and that Hardware Unlimited will likely do for more tech oriented characters (not exclusively the Hardware category alone, but also cyborgs, robots and others who rely on gadgets and gimmicks).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

Okay... on to some of the optional character mechanic ideas I've had for the various magical power categories.

First up is Magical Weapons.

The basis of this idea is that those who use magical weapons will get two pools of points, one for abilities the weapon grants the champion and may be useable (at least for a brief amount of time) even when the character doesn't have the weapon with him (such as the super powers that one can get). The other pool is for granting the weapon powers that it can share with its champion (but can not be used without the weapon in hand... so to speak). Magical weapons will also have a number of baseline abilities that they all grant, though they can be modified to some degree as deemed appropriate by the player and GM (such as a bow not needing a bonus to parry instead getting a slightly higher bonus to strike).

I am also toying with the possibility that the player can choose to reduce or eliminate these base bonuses to increase the number of points in these pools... though with the reasonable restriction that they can not use any of the points gained (or had previous) to buy traits that would compensate for such a choice (directly by taking a trait that increases the one reduced, or indirectly by selecting a trait that provides such a bonus due to a different bonus). For example, if a player decides to eliminate the SDC bonus the weapon provides to gain more points to either pool, he should not be able to use those points on features that can add SDC including Major or Minor powers that offer bonus SDC even if that bonus isn't the focus of such power (such as some of the Flight Powers). Finally, there will also be a limit as to how many additional points can be added to either pool, again to limit the potential for abuse (though the limits sacrificing multiple baseline bonuses should curb this abuse greatly). The reason for including this mechanic is so that players could come close to creating weapons that are equivalent to some of the weapons that currently exist within the game, such as from Armageddon Unlimited (though exact copies are still not quite possible).

Of course I also plan on increasing the availaible selection of abilities that one can choose from for both the weapon and the one using it. This should allow heroes (and villains) who use magical weapons nearly unlimited possibilities.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

One of the abilities I am thinking of allowing for selection is the infamous "Soul Drinking" ability.

I'm most likely to go with the version presented in Armageddon Unlimited for while it is still a dangerous power (and one that should be given to players with care, though not recommended) isn't quite the instant kill most other versions are.

This version has the following abilities/restrictions:

1) A Soul Drinking attack must drink deeply from a person's blood... meaning that it must do damage to HP. SDC damage doesn't count. If the damage you deal comes from the person's SDC, then you can't activate a weapon's Soul Drinking power (yet).
2) The victim gets to Save vs. Magic to avoid the Soul Drinking attack (the exact save will depend on the potency of the weapon), but if they do save, they still take damage (sometime double, again depending on the power level of the weapon).
3) On a failed roll, the Soul is taken by the weapon, but the one who lost it isn't dead (not yet at least). The following applies to such "Soulless" Characters... Powers and Spell Casting abilities are reduced by 1/3 across the board (range, duration, damage, etc.), PPE and ISP are reduced by 1/3, healing is reduced by 1/2 and the character can no longer gain experience until the soul is recovered. Additionally, such characters can no longer save vs. possession (all such attempts automatically succeed unless there is an entity currently inhabiting such a character) and ME is reduced by 1/2. The body can only survive in this manner for 2d6 years (might reduce this as it seems rather long to be without one's soul; perhaps 2d6 months +1 month per PE?) before turning to dust, though the body can be killed in the meantime through normal damage. Should a soulless body die, only a miracle would be able to restore such a character.

As for the soul taken, it can be stored in the weapon indefinitely... and can be released if the weapon desires (or is commanded to do so by its wielder). There is no limit to the number of souls that can be taken, though there is often a limit to the number of times a soul drinking attack can be made (even if resisted, such attacks still count as an attempt). Often many villains who steal the souls of heroic characters... or those close to them will not destroy such souls, but rather keep them to torment a hero (and the soul) for some time. Souls can be transferred into gems (diamonds, sapphires, rubies and emeralds being the most commonly used) and can be used as currency with some demonic forces (the more potent/experienced the soul, the more it is worth to such beings). To release such imprisoned souls merely requires the gem to be shattered, at which time it returns to its body (assuming it is still alive).

I think this version leaves plenty of room for heroics... what could be more heroic than saving someone's soul from a villain with such a weapon? Does this sound like a version of the Soul Drinking ability that the rest of you would enjoy playing with? Even with all these restrictions, it will remain a costly ability to have in one's weapon (and likely only available to characters of Evil alignments).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

That's interesting. I'm a little leery of stuff like that in general but I don't think it's that over the top and it does lead to some interesting potential adventures as they try to help someone regain their soul.


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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

I've never liked the whole Soul Drinking as an instant kill mechanic... that once the soul is drained from a character, it is time to roll up a new character. The version presented in Armageddon Unlimited does help clarify just what happens to the victims of such attacks... and also clarifies how soul drinking attacks should work (in that they need to do HP damage, not merely SDC).

I have seen this power abused in so many games that I was actually thinking of not including the power in my optional Magic Weapon creation rules. Too many players and even GMs used this power to instantly kill characters that were too tough to defeat any other way. I have seen opponents with hundreds (or thousands) of SDC instantly killed from the first attack with such a weapon (only did SDC damage, not HP; merely a scratch that didn't draw blood) because the player or character failed a save. No character should die because of a single role. Not a Player Character. Not a Non-Player Character. Bad rolls happen... but shouldn't lead to instant death. Even the Save vs. Coma/Death roll is the best 2 of 3 rolls.

Now, with the version that appears in Armageddon Unlimited, Soul Drinking is no longer instant kill from a bad save... and a little more limited as to when it can be applied. I can now see a lot more potential adventures with this power than before... unlimited potential that is worthy of the game.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

My problem honestly is two fold.
One is a ship that has already sailed. Namely that once upon a time soul drinking was a rare ability found in a handful of legendary weapons... now its basically standard issue.
The second is that by watering down the powers as much as they have it basically makes it not soul drinking anymore. Its "take some random bit of your life force that is important but not THAT important and store it until the next mini-series" :?

The biggest issue with soul drinking as a power is that besides being ripe for abuse as you noted it opens up huge cans of worms... And worse, once again goes in and tinkers with the definition of souls. As a GM the less material I have to go through and 'fix' on souls and afterlives the better. Now if Palladium wants to sit down and finally make an explicit forma spelling out of the entire metaphysics behind souls, life, death, birth, afterlife, reincarnation, etc... because the current way of having each author just redo how souls work to fit what they think will be cool for their book is frustrating for people that want to try and use their collection of books.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

To be honest... I don't think the power actually explains exactly what it is taking. Yes, it claims it is one's "soul" or essence... an important part of what makes someone themselves... but whether or not it is actually the "soul" of a person is still up for debate.

Now, the version that is in Armageddon Unlimited (and even then, only in two of the many weapons described) is what I think was intended all along for this type of weapon... just that it has never been spelled out like this before. All that was really talked about soul drinkers is that they stole (and often devoured) the soul of their victims. It never really explained what was happening... thus most people assumed (myself included) that a mere scratch from such a weapon (any damage; HP or SDC) could rob one of their soul and instantly kill a character. Now that we have this version and what exactly it does (and when the power can be used), I am a little more comfortable allowing it to be selected as a power for Magical Weapon Characters.

That said... it is still a very potent power... and one that will cost a fair bit to have with my optional rules. Basically... with the rules I am working on, getting Soul Drinking and making it as powerful as it appears with most weapons that have it will take up most (if not all) the points one will get to make their weapon... sacrificing many other potential powers for this. This may seem harsh, but as has been mentioned in Armageddon Unlimited, Soul Drinking is a very rare power for a magical weapon to have on Earth... and I feel this will reinforce this perception while still making it available.

One can't claim that this sourcebook gives magic unlimited potential if it doesn't make such a ability available (even at a high cost). As with all other aspects of the game... it is up to individual GMs to decide if such a power is available to their players.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

I would argue that the claim of "Must be unlimited" is sophistry. Unless we are going to go through and spell out the exact, point for point conversion for every megadamage spell, and magic class in every palladium book it wont be 'Unlimited". After all, your limiting your mages by denying them cultural magic like Spirit Magic, or Druid Magic. And your denying them Temporal Magic, and Necromancy, and Shamanisim, and Cloud Magic, and Biomancy, and Stone Magic, and Cybermancy, and Fleshsculpting, and Diabolisim, and...

My point is that you are already going to have to make choices and cut stuff. There is no reason to include super high powered, potentially game breaking munchkin bait for no better reason than "you cant call it unlimited with out everything". If there is a separate, valid reason that standing on its own supports the inclusion of Soul Drinking as a selectable power then sure. But to include it as a selectable power IMHO defeats the entire "soul drinkers are rare" and in fact goes the wrong way by helping SD proliferation. I mean the solution to SD being seen as becoming not rare is... make it even MORE COMMON? And if your including SD as a selectable power, do you plan to include every other Rune Weapon ability and ability seen in any magic weapon or object ever printed as well? If not why not? Specifically how are you picking which powers get treated as "must be included to be considered unlimited" and which ones get treated as "well that doesn't count against being unlimited".

And the entire "soul" thing is STILL not touched. MAYBE if you are willing to sit down and address the fact that your retconing things and this isn't drinking the soul, and that all canon statements to the contrary in dozens of books aside, that as of now it is just drinking some other piece of life force that is not-a-soul-but-still-rather-important. Because otherwise your either drinking souls... or your ignoring the written canon that says that they are drinking souls. What we want it to have meant doesn't change what was written. What was written was the statement 'drinks souls" it has said over and over again, in an ex-cathedra rules book perspective that these weapons are drinking a persons soul. Thus soul drinkers (and other soul magic) affects souls. To now go through and make it some other part of the spirit to avoid the issues raise is fine... But it requires actually going in and making a canon "this is a retcon" statement. You cant just say "well we sort of want it to have worked this way and are going to assume it was really doing something different than what it has been saying all along" Well you can... but you need to come out and SAY it.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

What a soul drinking weapon is taking is not entirely understood... by even those who use such powers.

Is it actually a character's soul? Perhaps. Is it something vital to the person? Yes. Is it something that a character would move heaven and earth to reclaim? Definitely.

To be honest... it really doesn't matter what it is that a soul drinker is taking... but rather the stories and adventures that evolve and revolve around what is being taken. I don't see any real need to go into any real depth of what it is that is being stolen other than the penalties one suffers while it is missing... penalties that should motivate most to reclaim that which was taken from them.

Suffice it to say, the Soul Drinking power is one that should be rightfully feared, but not because it is an instant kill from a slight scratch (which most believe it to be)... but because it doesn't kill (at least not instantly) but takes something vital. One can get many more stories out of such a development than they could before... because at least now there is a chance to save the individual that had their soul stolen. Before... going up against such a weapon usually meant the death of at least one (possibly more) characters... now there is both more and less at stake.

As for the other magics you mentioned... not including them does not mean that they aren't allowed in HU... just that the conversion and inclusion in this book would be redundant. 1) there would not be enough space for anything new if done (we'd be looking at a close to 600 pg sourcebook... twice the size of the corebook). 2) the conversion of even MD spells is fairly easy. However, up until Armageddon Unlimited, there has been no published weapon in the setting (Heroes Unlimited) with Soul Drinking powers and no way to allow heroes/villains to acquire it... which does strongly suggest that it WAS a power that WASN'T allowed in the setting... thus limiting the kinds of stories that could be told. The misperception I had about the power was also limiting the way in which I would use such a power when it was available in other settings... which is why a clarification and clear definition of what the power can and can't do, plus an idea of how much such a power should cost is a little more important than a copy/paste of already printed material that is easily acquired and converted. Clearing up such misperceptions... including the misperception that magic in the HU setting is weak... is what Magic Unlimited is about... showing the unlimited potential for stories that magic is capable of, even in a heroic setting.

You may not agree with such decisions... which is fine. You are free to discard or include anything written in any book for the setting. But I am not working on this idea to please you... or anyone really. I am just working on it to show what potential magic has... potential that is clearly being overlooked by far too many people (though with Unlimited potential stories from other areas that seem flashier or shinier... it is hardly surprising). Magic... even the dark magic of Soul Drinking... should invoke a sense of wonder as much as terror in a story... especially one about heroic and villainous superbeings.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:What a soul drinking weapon is taking is not entirely understood... by even those who use such powers.

Is it actually a character's soul? Perhaps. Is it something vital to the person? Yes. Is it something that a character would move heaven and earth to reclaim? Definitely.

To be honest... it really doesn't matter what it is that a soul drinker is taking... but rather the stories and adventures that evolve and revolve around what is being taken. I don't see any real need to go into any real depth of what it is that is being stolen other than the penalties one suffers while it is missing... penalties that should motivate most to reclaim that which was taken from them.

Suffice it to say, the Soul Drinking power is one that should be rightfully feared, but not because it is an instant kill from a slight scratch (which most believe it to be)... but because it doesn't kill (at least not instantly) but takes something vital. One can get many more stories out of such a development than they could before... because at least now there is a chance to save the individual that had their soul stolen. Before... going up against such a weapon usually meant the death of at least one (possibly more) characters... now there is both more and less at stake.

THIS is the problem though.
This is EXACLTY the problem.
Its taking what has already been officially published and now retconning it into some form of doubt and uncertainty because the official, published material does not work for the current plot.
Which is fine I guess. But we need to call a spade a spade and address this right up front. Otherwise this will simply contribute to Palladiums reputation of having each book simply do what it wants and have no nod to continuity.
I really don't have a problem with changing what souldrinkers, and by extension soul magic does. I really don't. I LIKE it in fact. But if we only change some of it, and only do it part way, and let a lot of the changes just be in the "well its all in my head that its cooler this way" you get canon confusion which is Bad.

Razorwing wrote:As for the other magics you mentioned... not including them does not mean that they aren't allowed in HU... just that the conversion and inclusion in this book would be redundant. 1) there would not be enough space for anything new if done (we'd be looking at a close to 600 pg sourcebook... twice the size of the corebook). 2) the conversion of even MD spells is fairly easy. However, up until Armageddon Unlimited, there has been no published weapon in the setting (Heroes Unlimited) with Soul Drinking powers and no way to allow heroes/villains to acquire it... which does strongly suggest that it WAS a power that WASN'T allowed in the setting... thus limiting the kinds of stories that could be told. The misperception I had about the power was also limiting the way in which I would use such a power when it was available in other settings... which is why a clarification and clear definition of what the power can and can't do, plus an idea of how much such a power should cost is a little more important than a copy/paste of already printed material that is easily acquired and converted. Clearing up such misperceptions... including the misperception that magic in the HU setting is weak... is what Magic Unlimited is about... showing the unlimited potential for stories that magic is capable of, even in a heroic setting.

You may not agree with such decisions... which is fine. You are free to discard or include anything written in any book for the setting. But I am not working on this idea to please you... or anyone really. I am just working on it to show what potential magic has... potential that is clearly being overlooked by far too many people (though with Unlimited potential stories from other areas that seem flashier or shinier... it is hardly surprising). Magic... even the dark magic of Soul Drinking... should invoke a sense of wonder as much as terror in a story... especially one about heroic and villainous superbeings.

That is a slightly better, reason though than the trite (and one I hate) of "well it says unlimited soo"
Its a rational argument that "okay, Pandora's box has already been opened, so lets have stats for it" I would still suggest that Soul Drinking needs a SERIOUS "GM TOOL" warning around it, like the one for Mega Heroes. At a minimum. Because frankly it, alone, is a power on par with being a mega hero. Unless you are radically rewriting the entire mechanics of souldrinking itself... which is a totally different issue.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

And I intend to put a serious "GM TOOL" warning around the Soul Drinking power... one that a wise GM will read, listen to and think about before allowing in his games... either in the hands of his own villains or in to the hands of a Player. It is also going to be a very costly power... taking up a large chunk of a Magical Weapon's powers to possess (at least with the optional rules I am working on).

Suffice it to say, there will be degrees of potency for this feature... with lower levels of the power that MUST be taken to get access to the higher levels. For an idea of what I am thinking, take a look at Rifter 52... the article "Ruins to Runes" and the Soul Drinker RCC within. At it's most basic, it will require a low threshold to save (one that most heroes should be able to make) and can only be attempted once (1) per day, successful or not. Making it more potent (increasing the save that needs to be rolled against) and increasing the number of times per day that it can be used will require additional expenditures of the weapons power... limiting the potential powers the weapon can give. It is even possible to make it more potent than the usual level or power seen... if a Player or GM wants to sacrifice that much versatility for power. In short... making the most powerful version of a Soul Drinker weapon will more or less make it a one trick pony... in that all it can really do is drain one's soul, but even at its weakest, the power is still one to be feared (which such weapons really should be).

I'm not so sure that Soul Drinking is on par with being a Mega Hero... in in this I will agree to disagree with you. The powers of Magical Weapons... and the Rune Weapons they were in part based upon, have always been about deciding how much power one wants. You can make an incredibly potent soul drinker weapon, but at the cost of most, if not all other powers one could get. It is the same as when deciding on rune weapon abilities in other games... or any potent weapon/artifact. It is definitely a power that needs to be defined as to what it can and can not do, but beyond that... and a possible warning that this power can seriously change a game (but no more than any other rune weapon or power) it is up to those who select and use the power to decide how it is used.

Beyond this... any defining or retconing what is taken is more or less unnecessary. It really doesn't matter what is actually taken... one's soul, vital essence or some other metaphysical component of one's make up... it doesn't matter. What matters is that it is a vital part of the person that they are going to want back. That soul drinking is not an instant kill (and probably never was meant to be one) is also vital... in that it is now possible to tell far more interesting stories about rescuing one's soul than having one's friends seeking revenge for the villain killing a great hero. It also opens up some interesting... and questionable morality of some who use it... such as an anti-hero who takes the souls of criminals to force them to reform to have it returned before they die from a lack of soul.

In the end however, I think we are just going to continue dancing around in circles on this subject... stating our positions but doing little to convince the other (or anyone else) who is right or wrong in this case. You have made your opinion clear... and I hope I have made mine to... so I am going to move on to other aspects of this sourcebook that require my attention. Be assured, I do value the input you have provided and will modify the ability as I feel is needed to provide a better story. If this means retconing things for HU... then so be it. In the end it will be Palladium Books that decides what will see print and what won't.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Jack Burton »

So glad I found this thread! The search feature doesn't work for me, so I was about to create a new one asking about sources from which to draw ideas about magic in the HU world. Then I stumbled on this...

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels magic is not well represented. I bought a big Rifts magic book as well as the PF magic book in hopes of converting some mystical stuff over. When I read the introductory description of the Magic hero category in HU, Kevin Siembieda essentially said that the HU world was not overly filled with magic, therefore not a lot would be included. I was a bit disappointed. Afterall, this is Heroes UNLIMITED, right?

Thanks to all who posted. I will go back and read what everyone is thinking.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Jack Burton wrote:Afterall, this is Heroes UNLIMITED, right?
If it were truly unlimited there would be books on how to create basically every spell, power and whatnot imaginable. The system is not unlimited. Putting out more books of spells would be nice, but ultimately expensive.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Jack Burton »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:Afterall, this is Heroes UNLIMITED, right?
If it were truly unlimited there would be books on how to create basically every spell, power and whatnot imaginable. The system is not unlimited. Putting out more books of spells would be nice, but ultimately expensive.


Ya, I agree it would be expensive to put out all that material. It was just surprising to read in no uncertain terms that magic was intended to be curtailed. That's all.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Jack Burton wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:Afterall, this is Heroes UNLIMITED, right?
If it were truly unlimited there would be books on how to create basically every spell, power and whatnot imaginable. The system is not unlimited. Putting out more books of spells would be nice, but ultimately expensive.


Ya, I agree it would be expensive to put out all that material. It was just surprising to read in no uncertain terms that magic was intended to be curtailed. That's all.

I don't think that anyone who is actually in a position of power intends to 'curtail magic'
I do think that some individuals have personal views on magic that diverges from the official view, and that on the Forums and internet that is cool.
I also think that it would never get past first edit in a manuscript.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Jack Burton »

Ya, but it would be nice to have more HU magic than less of it. No biggie... That's why I got those sourcebooks to draw info from.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Jack Burton wrote:Ya, but it would be nice to have more HU magic than less of it. No biggie... That's why I got those sourcebooks to draw info from.

I agree.
And I think that there are a lot of things that could be done to make a "Magic Unlimited" sourcebook that would be good.
I made a few of those suggestions in this thread already in fact.
I just don't think that rewriting the game is one of them :D
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

eliakon wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:Ya, but it would be nice to have more HU magic than less of it. No biggie... That's why I got those sourcebooks to draw info from.

I agree.
And I think that there are a lot of things that could be done to make a "Magic Unlimited" sourcebook that would be good.
I made a few of those suggestions in this thread already in fact.
I just don't think that rewriting the game is one of them :D
They are basically saying they included the magic to make the system megaversal but don't see this game as one that is about magic, which it isn't. I agree that they would have to rewrite the game to make it such.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:Ya, but it would be nice to have more HU magic than less of it. No biggie... That's why I got those sourcebooks to draw info from.

I agree.
And I think that there are a lot of things that could be done to make a "Magic Unlimited" sourcebook that would be good.
I made a few of those suggestions in this thread already in fact.
I just don't think that rewriting the game is one of them :D
They are basically saying they included the magic to make the system megaversal but don't see this game as one that is about magic, which it isn't. I agree that they would have to rewrite the game to make it such.

Now see, I don't agree there.
I have run a lot of HU games, and have never had a problem including magic on both sides of the screen. To be honest it has been harder to include psychics and the "skilled normal" like the super spy, super sleuth, stage magician and the like.

Granted a mage isn't going to be cosmic brawler going head to head in a blast-o-thon where your throwing down 10+ dice attacks...
...but hey, the vast majority of heroes aren't either (At least not in my experience)
They tend to be the 'cosmic utility knife' type of character, who can do a little bit of everything and often fill the critical niche of 'fill in the missing spots". By which I mean that they can compensate for the areas that the team is weak for instance, or take a spell that can provide an emergency back up for something (the Thermo Alien will appreciate you having Impervious to Cold handy if his suit gets destroyed for instance...)

The other kind of magic hero that gets a lot of play is the 'special effect' hero. Which is a hero that has magic as their special effect. Magic Weapons, Mystic Imbued, Empowered, Immortals all fit in here...
...they are basically a regular hero with super powers... they just get their cosmically awesome powers from the Pink Diamond Queen instead of radioactive moon rocks.


What I see a lot of times happening though is that people complain that they can't use Power Category X in a stand up fight with Power Category Y and thus X sucks.
To me that saying its just some sort of arena battle sim. If I wanted that I would go play Mortal Kombat or something.
In a stand up fight, your always going to have a couple stand out categories (Mutant, Ancient Master, Physical Training, Eugenics all come to mind)...
...but Mr. Flying Blaster/Tank is rarely also highly skilled at infiltration. Or at researching the situation from clues. Or building gear. Or...

Basically... each different Power Category is supposed to be different. That's the point. They are not all supposed to be the same. They are supposed to fill in different niches and do different things.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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