Enchanted Objects: Why No Control Powers?

[Regularguy]

If you're a Keeper Of An Enchanted Object hero, you get your choice of one Major Super Ability "excluding Immortality or any of the Control powers."

I'm guessing the ban on Immortality is because you're supposed to just be the latest in a line of characters who've used the object; you weren't the first, you won't be the last, it changes hands every generation or something, you're the mere mortal du jour fielding the role for now. Okay. Sure. I maybe see a couple of problems with that, but I think I see the point.

But why the ban on Control powers? It doesn't seem to make thematic sense, and I don't see any game-balance reason for it either.

(I don't even really see what it's going for. I mean, yeah, you can't take Control Elemental Force: Fire, so you -- just take APS: Fire, or Super-Energy Expulsion: Fire? What's the intent, there? You can't take Control: Others, so you -- just use Divine Aura to order people around? Why? You can't take Control Kinetic Energy to speed people up and slow them down, so you -- just do it with Gravity Manipulation instead? What does that accomplish?)

[Glistam]

The Keeper Of An Enchanted Object Power Category is in bad need of a re-write and upgrade.

[Razorwing]

Even if such an object does grant the Immortality power (Major, not Mega), that doesn't mean that the character isn't the latest in a long line of individuals... but rather it may take more time before a new person is worthy of wielding such an item. Besides... even Immortals can die... it is merely harder to kill them.

That said... of all the power categories currently available, Enchanted Objects are by far the weakest. They have a very limited selection of bonuses, the number of powers available to them are woefully small... and all such abilities are permanently frozen at a given level of power... never to increase beyond that.

Compare that to what an Enchanted Weapon gets... well... the number of abilities beyond those possessed by the weapon are just as small (actually maybe a little weaker), but aren't frozen at a given level. The innate bonuses given by the weapon are generally better... and the powers possessed by the weapon itself are both more numerous and more powerful.

Overall... Enchanted Weapons got a bit of a power boost in the Revised 2nd Edition... while Enchanted objects didn't.

[Regularguy]

Even if such an object does grant the Immortality power (Major, not Mega), that doesn't mean that the character isn't the latest in a long line of individuals... but rather it may take more time before a new person is worthy of wielding such an item. Besides... even Immortals can die... it is merely harder to kill them.

Like I said, I can see some problems with that idea -- but I can still figure that's what they were shooting for when they banned Immortality.

And I agree with you and Glistam about how the category would benefit from an overhaul.

But I still don't get why, of all things, they banned the Control powers.

If they'd banned, say, Cloaking and Mechano-Link -- sure, what you and Glistam say would still be true, but I could still say I'm guessing the idea was, ancient magic wasn't supposed to anticipate modern electronics. I could go on to argue that the limit should be dropped regardless -- and I'd maybe even be wrong about what the intent was in the first place -- but at least I could make that guess.

Here, though, I honestly can't even make a half-assed guess.

The intent eludes me entirely.

[The Baron of chaos]

Yeah the whole Enchanted Object has some serious flaws overall. Consider that even an average Rifts TW device can do more.
As for Immortality...I always thought it should be possible(Super Regeneration is ok, so why not immortality) but is a double edged sword in that you are immortal untill you have the magic object. The very moment you lose it, well classical instant superaging. But is somethign tha tis better left to GM.

[eliakon]

The "Ancient magic shouldn't let you control technology" thing is easy.
GM says "No I am sorry, that doesn't make sense, pick a different power."
BOOM Source/Power disconnect solved.
Next problem?
Oh hmmm, can't take a power that makes sense?
GM "I think this doesn't make sense. You can have your ring of Fire Control, sure."
PC "but the rules say"
GM "You do realize I am the GM right? Rule Zero."

Okay, next issue?
Ohhh balance and overhaul of the class?
Yah, not going to touch that with a three meter pole.

[Regularguy]

The "Ancient magic shouldn't let you control technology" thing is easy.
GM says "No I am sorry, that doesn't make sense, pick a different power."
BOOM Source/Power disconnect solved.
Next problem?
Oh hmmm, can't take a power that makes sense?
GM "I think this doesn't make sense. You can have your ring of Fire Control, sure."
PC "but the rules say"
GM "You do realize I am the GM right? Rule Zero."

No, I get that; it's obvious.

If you think ancient magic shouldn't control technology -- but should control other stuff -- then you simply overrule what the book says. Sure. Fine. Whatever.

What I'm asking is, why ban the 'Control' powers in the first place?

They could've picked, y'know, anything; they picked this; why? It's a weird restriction that, as you say, people may think doesn't make sense; I can think of equally unnecessary restrictions that would make slightly more sense, since this one makes -- well, none, as far as I can tell.

Is there something I'm missing?

Or is it, as far as anyone can tell, just there for no special reason?

[eliakon]

I think it is from when they were transitioning from the first edition of the game. Back then those Control Elemental Force powers were the only 'control' powers out there and were some of the most powerful abilities in the game. I think that it started as "you cant have the best powers in the game"....but as things evolved the powers changed, the system changed and 'control powers' no longer became the best of the best....but the text was never updated to reflect this.
Result? We have a power limit in place to solve a problem that hasn't existed since the revised edition of the game.

[Razorwing]

Magic shouldn't control technology? Why? There are many settings in Palladium's Megaverse where Magic and Technology co-exist (and surprisingly Heroes Unlimited is one of them). Who says that these items are originally from Earth?

Earth has been visited by Aliens, Extra-dimensional Beings, Gods, Demons, Dragons and many, many more from all sorts of worlds where magic and technology are not always antagonistic. Additionally, many lost societies of the ancient world thought to be mere legends may have been surprisingly technological in their achievements... and if such an object hails from such a lost civilization... there is a good chance that its magic can control technology. True, until the modern age such items had very limited uses (magic that controls technology isn't much use without technology to control), but then perhaps that is why this item hasn't been seen until recently.

For every reason you can give as to why Magical Items shouldn't be able to control technology, I can give you an equally convincing reason why they can and should.

[Regularguy]

For every reason you can give as to why Magical Items shouldn't be able to control technology, I can give you an equally convincing reason why they can and should.

You're missing my point.

I agree that, for every reason why magic shouldn't control technology, you can supply "an equally convincing reason why they can and should".

But if the rules had banned the 'tech' powers, I'd at least be able to guess why -- even if I'd immediately follow it up with "an equally convincing reason why they can and should."

But with the 'control' powers, I can't even do that. I can't come up with a semi-plausible guess about intent before playing But On The Other Hand. I could've come up with a half-assed effort if it had been 'tech' powers, but I have no ass to give for 'control' powers.

Now, eliakon has offered up the following...

I think it is from when they were transitioning from the first edition of the game. Back then those Control Elemental Force powers were the only 'control' powers out there and were some of the most powerful abilities in the game.

...and I don't know enough to know whether that makes sense.

What other powers did they have in the first edition? Invulnerability, surely; APS: Fire seems like a classic; Mimic probably made the cut; does anyone have a list of the First Edition powers?

[Razorwing]

To be honest, it makes as much sense as the ban on APS powers for Enchanted Weapons. True, a lot of APS powers (especially the ones from the Powers Unlimited series) can be fairly powerful... but generally no more powerful than anything they are allowed to take. As you pointed out with various Control Powers, there are ways to achieve similar results with other powers.

Instead of becoming a walking juggernaut with APS Metal or Stone, such a character could become one with Invulnerability or Growth. Intangibility would allow one to slip past obstacles even easier than APS Air or Water and have similar invulnerability to physical attacks.

To be very honest, these limitations do seem rather arbitrary and pointless when it comes to limiting the power levels of such characters... especially with clever players who can find the means to achieve similar results with powers that aren't banned.

Then again, you don't see many Magic Weapon wielders or Enchanted Object users with these sorts of powers in comics or cartoons... at least not back when the original game came out (nowadays, it seems there are no powers barred from anyone in comics and cartoons... let alone TV or movies).

[Glistam]

There was no such restriction in the Revised version of the game. It seems they added the restriction when they made the "conversion" to Second Edition. The item now needs P.P.E. to activate the power and use it's abilities, and both your eyes and the item glow while you're using the power. That would make a subtle power, like Immortality, difficult to really use. As far as the "Control" powers... It makes no sense to me. Some of the restrictions they place on some of the power categories just seem arbitrary to me, and this is no exception.

The only explanations I can even begin to imagine for the "No control powers" is that maybe in their experience people were constantly using the power category to convert "Captain Planet and the Planeteers" characters, and due to their no-conversions policy decided to nip that right in the bud.

[Tinker Dragoon]

If you're a Keeper Of An Enchanted Object hero, you get your choice of one Major Super Ability "excluding Immortality or any of the Control powers."

I'm guessing the ban on Immortality is because you're supposed to just be the latest in a line of characters who've used the object; you weren't the first, you won't be the last, it changes hands every generation or something, you're the mere mortal du jour fielding the role for now. Okay. Sure. I maybe see a couple of problems with that, but I think I see the point.

But why the ban on Control powers? It doesn't seem to make thematic sense, and I don't see any game-balance reason for it either.

(I don't even really see what it's going for. I mean, yeah, you can't take Control Elemental Force: Fire, so you -- just take APS: Fire, or Super-Energy Expulsion: Fire? What's the intent, there? You can't take Control: Others, so you -- just use Divine Aura to order people around? Why? You can't take Control Kinetic Energy to speed people up and slow them down, so you -- just do it with Gravity Manipulation instead? What does that accomplish?)

My best guess for the restriction is that several of the Control powers effectively duplicate multiple spells, making the spellcasting options less attractive, but even that doesn't make much sense as there are plenty of other powers that can duplicate spell effects. It's just one of those rules that I normally ignore, unless the GM is strictly enforcing it.

[Razorwing]

Creative players will find ways around such restrictions.

Okay, I can agree with the glowing eyes and object making the Immortality power rather noticeable... but then people are likely to notice a person who doesn't seem to age much anyways... so again... not much of a reason. In ancient times, such a manifestation could be seen as a sign of divinity and such... and as a mark of the Devil during the Dark Ages. Not sure if people would even bat an eye at such an occurrence in a modern setting like Heroes... what with aliens, cyborgs and robots walking next to mutants and sorcerers. Add pointy ears and dye your skin purple and you could pass yourself off as a Kaldorei.

[boxee]

Wand grants the following: energy expulsion: electricity, turn invisible at will, and the following spells: armor of ithan, breathe without air, paralysis: lesser, energy field, swim as a fish, trance, domination, eyes of thoth, and sleep. Has 190 PPE and powers are at fifth level.

The above example seems like it would be fun.

I agree the enchanted object needs a boost to make it competitive.


As for characters with enchanted object like powers. Green Lantern and his ring. Doctor Fate and his helmet. Just to name two.......

[Regularguy]

I wouldn't mind an enchanted ring that grants Mimic (because lacking a second power is irrelevant when you're using Mimic) plus Invisibility.

(Wait, can the ring make you invisible while you mimic someone?)