Simultaneous attacks when there's no defense?

[Tor]

HU2p133 under the Hardware Weapons' W.P. Sharpshooting #7 it mentions that the real target of a richocet shot has no opportunity to parry or dodge.

Tactically it would seem like the smart thing to do in that case is simultaneous attack, since you have nothing to lose. But should it still even be possible to do that when you're not sacrificing an opportunity.

This got me wondering about other circumstances. You can't defend against a surprise attack for example.. but is there anything preventing the target of a surprise attack from doing a simultaneous attack instead?

I don't like the feel of it since it seems to neutralize the benefits of these defense-compromising maneuvers but I can't really find anything preventing it. The only logistical limit is if you use a richochet/surprise against someone with low-range attacks while using a long-range gun.

[eliakon]

I would say, personally, that a Simultaneous Attack, since it is used in the place of a parry or dodge can only be used against such attacks as allow the replaced defense.
If you can't make a defense roll in the first place you cant choose to replace said roll with something else....as there is nothing to replace.

[Alrik Vas]

How would that interact with a psychic character that has Sixth Sense, or other types of characters that can't be surprised?

Or are we going to say that a bank shot is denying defense for a reason other than the opponent counting as unaware of where the attack is coming from?

[The Artist Formerly]

How would that interact with a psychic character that has Sixth Sense, or other types of characters that can't be surprised?

Or are we going to say that a bank shot is denying defense for a reason other than the opponent counting as unaware of where the attack is coming from?

Anyone with the "can't be blind sided" type rules, always gets their normal defense checks. Sixth sense, heightened awareness, danger sense, those sorts.

[eliakon]

Unless they are a juicer they don't get a special ability to dodge/parry/react to all attacks.
A ricochet shot explicitly says you don't get a defense, ergo you don't get a defense.
If you have some power that makes it not a surprise attack....its still a ricochet shot, you just aren't surprised by it.

As for the ability to know about and not be surprised, unless the power explicitly lets you know what is coming, where and when and/or says that it prevents surprise then it can still be a surprise attack for rules purposes. Even if you have an existential feeling of dread that started somewhere between 15seconds and 60 seconds before the shot you still don't know WHEN the shot is coming precisely enough to avoid getting hit let alone returning fire.

[The Artist Formerly]

Unless they are a juicer they don't get a special ability to dodge/parry/react to all attacks.
A ricochet shot explicitly says you don't get a defense, ergo you don't get a defense.
If you have some power that makes it not a surprise attack....its still a ricochet shot, you just aren't surprised by it.

As for the ability to know about and not be surprised, unless the power explicitly lets you know what is coming, where and when and/or says that it prevents surprise then it can still be a surprise attack for rules purposes. Even if you have an existential feeling of dread that started somewhere between 15seconds and 60 seconds before the shot you still don't know WHEN the shot is coming precisely enough to avoid getting hit let alone returning fire.

But you're alert and super human. Chalk the "no defense" part up to palladium's way with words.

[Alrik Vas]

Yah, if it's before combat begins, or during the first melee round when 6th sense would be in affect, and the shooter is within 90ft, I'd give them a dodge. It's so circumstantial it's fair.

[The Artist Formerly]

Yah, if it's before combat begins, or during the first melee round when 6th sense would be in affect, and the shooter is within 90ft, I'd give them a dodge. It's so circumstantial it's fair.

Plus if you burned a power selection and still have to eat these attacks, a player is feeling kind of cranky. I mean they could have bought something that gives fast healing, SDC boosts or an AR so they could either soak it or snicker as it bounces off.

[eliakon]

Unless they are a juicer they don't get a special ability to dodge/parry/react to all attacks.
A ricochet shot explicitly says you don't get a defense, ergo you don't get a defense.
If you have some power that makes it not a surprise attack....its still a ricochet shot, you just aren't surprised by it.

As for the ability to know about and not be surprised, unless the power explicitly lets you know what is coming, where and when and/or says that it prevents surprise then it can still be a surprise attack for rules purposes. Even if you have an existential feeling of dread that started somewhere between 15seconds and 60 seconds before the shot you still don't know WHEN the shot is coming precisely enough to avoid getting hit let alone returning fire.

But you're alert and super human. Chalk the "no defense" part up to palladium's way with words.

Why?
I mean seriously why should a power grant something that is not written into its definition. ESPECIALLY something that is explicitly available to some people and was explicitly mentioned in their write up?
If you want to be allowed to dodge or parry any and all attacks then you should play a juicer. Otherwise you have to settle for the abilities of what ever are playing.
Sixth Sense for instance says nothing at all about giving a defense against attacks ergo it does not.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would take it that if there is no defensive actions that can be taken vs said attack then the target of the attack cannot be aware the attack. Since they can't be aware of the attack they cannot make a Simultaneous attack in response to that attack.
This would also apply to juicers.
The sneak attacks (things like back stab and sniping attacks from a concealed position) and firearm/laser ricochet shots would fall into this topic.

[The Artist Formerly]

Unless they are a juicer they don't get a special ability to dodge/parry/react to all attacks.
A ricochet shot explicitly says you don't get a defense, ergo you don't get a defense.
If you have some power that makes it not a surprise attack....its still a ricochet shot, you just aren't surprised by it.

As for the ability to know about and not be surprised, unless the power explicitly lets you know what is coming, where and when and/or says that it prevents surprise then it can still be a surprise attack for rules purposes. Even if you have an existential feeling of dread that started somewhere between 15seconds and 60 seconds before the shot you still don't know WHEN the shot is coming precisely enough to avoid getting hit let alone returning fire.

But you're alert and super human. Chalk the "no defense" part up to palladium's way with words.

Why?
I mean seriously why should a power grant something that is not written into its definition. ESPECIALLY something that is explicitly available to some people and was explicitly mentioned in their write up?
If you want to be allowed to dodge or parry any and all attacks then you should play a juicer. Otherwise you have to settle for the abilities of what ever are playing.
Sixth Sense for instance says nothing at all about giving a defense against attacks ergo it does not.

Palladium texting, the love of cut and pastes. Different authors not knowing the rules. Poor planning and coordination at Palladium's staff. Plus if I blew a power selection on never being caught flat footed, I'd be pissed at getting caught flat footed. That pushes down the value of such powers. I could have bought a NAR power and got a SDC bump along with it. Or another psionic for tossing tables around cover at gunslingers. A ambush attack doesn't happen all the time, which limits the character with such powers. But NAR is almost always useful. And extra SDC never ever hurts.

[eliakon]

Unless they are a juicer they don't get a special ability to dodge/parry/react to all attacks.
A ricochet shot explicitly says you don't get a defense, ergo you don't get a defense.
If you have some power that makes it not a surprise attack....its still a ricochet shot, you just aren't surprised by it.

As for the ability to know about and not be surprised, unless the power explicitly lets you know what is coming, where and when and/or says that it prevents surprise then it can still be a surprise attack for rules purposes. Even if you have an existential feeling of dread that started somewhere between 15seconds and 60 seconds before the shot you still don't know WHEN the shot is coming precisely enough to avoid getting hit let alone returning fire.

But you're alert and super human. Chalk the "no defense" part up to palladium's way with words.

Why?
I mean seriously why should a power grant something that is not written into its definition. ESPECIALLY something that is explicitly available to some people and was explicitly mentioned in their write up?
If you want to be allowed to dodge or parry any and all attacks then you should play a juicer. Otherwise you have to settle for the abilities of what ever are playing.
Sixth Sense for instance says nothing at all about giving a defense against attacks ergo it does not.

Palladium texting, the love of cut and pastes. Different authors not knowing the rules. Poor planning and coordination at Palladium's staff. Plus if I blew a power selection on never being caught flat footed, I'd be pissed at getting caught flat footed. That pushes down the value of such powers. I could have bought a NAR power and got a SDC bump along with it. Or another psionic for tossing tables around cover at gunslingers. A ambush attack doesn't happen all the time, which limits the character with such powers. But NAR is almost always useful. And extra SDC never ever hurts.

Okay...so lets look first at Surprise

-If you bought Danger Sense super power you can not be caught by surprise (it says so in the text) so they obviously never get flat footed....because it explicitly says the do not.

-If you bought Heightened Sense of Awareness you "can not usually be caught by surprise" ...so they CAN be caught flat footed.

-And as BOTH of these specifically talk about surprise it follows that Sixth Sense does not negate surprise as if it did, that would have to be included in the power description, and it is not. Also known as abilities only grant you the abilities listed and not any additional ones.

Lesson here seems to be "if you want to never be flat footed, then take Danger Sense as it is the only power that says that it prevents being flat footed."

Now lets look at Ricochet.
The shot says 'can not be dodged or parried' which seems pretty clear...unless something says that it DOES allow a dodge or parry against all attacks....it doesn't.
Since there are AFAIK no super powers or psionics that say this, then there is nothing that can be selected with the expectation of getting this ability.

[Alrik Vas]

Wait...sixth sense doesn't actually state that it makes it so you cannot be surprised? I'm skeptical, it's something the power offers at least in Rifts. With all the cutting and pasting they do, I find it odd it wouldn't make it into HU2 or HU.

[eliakon]

Wait...sixth sense doesn't actually state that it makes it so you cannot be surprised? I'm skeptical, it's something the power offers at least in Rifts. With all the cutting and pasting they do, I find it odd it wouldn't make it into HU2 or HU.

"Can not be surprised by a sneak attack from behind" is not the same thing as "can not be surprised"
And since it explicitly goes to make the specific, limited statement it is pretty obvious that they did not mean a broader "can not be surprised at all" but that the one, specific form of surprise listed was not possible.

[say652]

I just Said No.
A simo strike hits at the same time you hit, no defense I care not for your loopholing or munchkinery.
No Exceptions.
Don't like it, Buy Palladium and make your thoughts Canon

[The Artist Formerly]

Okay...so lets look first at Surprise

-If you bought Danger Sense super power you can not be caught by surprise (it says so in the text) so they obviously never get flat footed....because it explicitly says the do not.

-If you bought Heightened Sense of Awareness you "can not usually be caught by surprise" ...so they CAN be caught flat footed.

-And as BOTH of these specifically talk about surprise it follows that Sixth Sense does not negate surprise as if it did, that would have to be included in the power description, and it is not. Also known as abilities only grant you the abilities listed and not any additional ones.

Lesson here seems to be "if you want to never be flat footed, then take Danger Sense as it is the only power that says that it prevents being flat footed."

Now lets look at Ricochet.
The shot says 'can not be dodged or parried' which seems pretty clear...unless something says that it DOES allow a dodge or parry against all attacks....it doesn't.
Since there are AFAIK no super powers or psionics that say this, then there is nothing that can be selected with the expectation of getting this ability.

You're not wrong.

But you not right either. That literal reading damages play. If the PC is going to blow a power selection rather then just something that lets them soak damage or push damage out put, a GM has to pay it off. This is a very limited use of an ability, so it's not a big give. Making sure a player feels like that's a power well spent, very valuable.

[eliakon]

Okay...so lets look first at Surprise

-If you bought Danger Sense super power you can not be caught by surprise (it says so in the text) so they obviously never get flat footed....because it explicitly says the do not.

-If you bought Heightened Sense of Awareness you "can not usually be caught by surprise" ...so they CAN be caught flat footed.

-And as BOTH of these specifically talk about surprise it follows that Sixth Sense does not negate surprise as if it did, that would have to be included in the power description, and it is not. Also known as abilities only grant you the abilities listed and not any additional ones.

Lesson here seems to be "if you want to never be flat footed, then take Danger Sense as it is the only power that says that it prevents being flat footed."

Now lets look at Ricochet.
The shot says 'can not be dodged or parried' which seems pretty clear...unless something says that it DOES allow a dodge or parry against all attacks....it doesn't.
Since there are AFAIK no super powers or psionics that say this, then there is nothing that can be selected with the expectation of getting this ability.

You're not wrong.

But you not right either. That literal reading damages play. If the PC is going to blow a power selection rather then just something that lets them soak damage or push damage out put, a GM has to pay it off. This is a very limited use of an ability, so it's not a big give. Making sure a player feels like that's a power well spent, very valuable.

How does it damage play to make a person play with the actual written stats of the powers they picked rather than what they would like that power to do?
I mean sure the GM can always house rule things to be whatever they like, but the actual written powers seem to have been specifically designed a certain way, to do a specific certain thing. This is why they address stuff like Surprise in each power and carefully spell out how it works...because the power was intended to do a certain thing and not do other things.
I mean look at Heightened Sense of Awareness Vs. Danger Sense.
Danger Sense makes you immune to surprise, but Heightened Sense of Awareness provides an Autododge. Totally different bonuses for the same 'combat sense'
Sixth Sense can be taken by almost any sensitive and makes them very hard to kill with traps or tricks, and gives them a chance to react to many things before they should know about it....but it is a minor psionic power not a super psionic power, which is why it is not an Infallible Shield Against All Surprise and Danger

[Alrik Vas]

Wait...sixth sense doesn't actually state that it makes it so you cannot be surprised? I'm skeptical, it's something the power offers at least in Rifts. With all the cutting and pasting they do, I find it odd it wouldn't make it into HU2 or HU.

"Can not be surprised by a sneak attack from behind" is not the same thing as "can not be surprised"
And since it explicitly goes to make the specific, limited statement it is pretty obvious that they did not mean a broader "can not be surprised at all" but that the one, specific form of surprise listed was not possible.

Aahhhh, ok. It does say they can't be surprised. Thought I.was.losing my mind for a second.

[The Artist Formerly]

How does it damage play to make a person play with the actual written stats of the powers they picked rather than what they would like that power to do?
I mean sure the GM can always house rule things to be whatever they like, but the actual written powers seem to have been specifically designed a certain way, to do a specific certain thing. This is why they address stuff like Surprise in each power and carefully spell out how it works...because the power was intended to do a certain thing and not do other things.
I mean look at Heightened Sense of Awareness Vs. Danger Sense.
Danger Sense makes you immune to surprise, but Heightened Sense of Awareness provides an Autododge. Totally different bonuses for the same 'combat sense'
Sixth Sense can be taken by almost any sensitive and makes them very hard to kill with traps or tricks, and gives them a chance to react to many things before they should know about it....but it is a minor psionic power not a super psionic power, which is why it is not an Infallible Shield Against All Surprise and Danger

Fair questions.

Ask yourself, in play what is the point of a power? How often does the player get to use it? What steps can you the GM take to validate that selection? What can I do to make the play who picked that power feel like s/he's shining center stage?

Never flat footed. How frequently do you as the GM use ambush style attacks, vs sneak attacks? To my experience, a good ambush requires set up on the part of the bad guys, set up the PCs could well detect with a detect ambush skill check. It's complex, and requires everything to be just so. Sneak attacks tend to be situational just require the baddies realizing that the good guys have a vulnerability and look to exploit those openings. During the course of play, the players will seek to close those openings down. That is to say, they'll get better at not getting caught flat footed. So their active play will discourage that, separate from powers. So we have combat format that's not going to be used in every combat format, something that can be reduced down through the use of skill selection, and active play is reducing the opportunities for such tricks. So why take one of those powers?

A subset of the above and good demonstration is the static trap. Poison dart flying out of the wall, explosives sections of floor, a giant bolder that chases you or spring loaded blades in a wall, these set ups require a bunch of set up on the part of the villains and don't pay out too well in a world in which people can turn into air, fly, teleport or walk through walls. And that's provided they aren't just flat out immune to the effects of the trap. In D&D a trap might have some function, in Heroes Unlimited, it's questionable without the GM using it as a plot point.

How often does this get used? A power that sits on a character sheet and doesn't get used is by definition, useless. Situational powers are already several steps behind something that's always going to pay off. These types of powers tend to go into themed builds. If the player starts to feel like his themed power set isn't as good a build as the guy who just went for the straight combat god, they get frustrated. As the GM we need to put this power center stage.

How does the GM validate this selection? As I've been pointing out, a player can take these niche powers, or they can take something that just gives them an AR and SDC bump. Under the rules reading (which is legit) you gave out, harden skin pays out much better then heightened awareness. Consider these statements: 1)So this guy is shooting at me from behind cover, and there isn't anything my heightened awareness can do about it. I'll just have to soak it. 2)So this guy is shooting at me from behind cover, but he still has to beat my NAR, and I have a bunch of SDC to soak the damage that does get through from hardened skin.

How do you help the character shine? This is really the crux of the trouble. As the GM you need to validate that power selection. Not all psionics, minor powers or major powers are equal. Or even kind of equal. Or even in the same state as equal. Sometimes not even on the same continent as equal. But the GM has to build that illusion or player builds will tend towards what's the most useful. Yes heightened awareness gives you autododge, but EX:PP gives you better autododge. That is to say, you have to build the idea of equality in a game about being far more then most everyone else.

Yeah, I know.

How do you do that? Little gives. Like never being flatfooted. I'm the GM, and I have ten billion and six ways to either inflict damage on the PCs or just straight up kill the characters should I so choose. This doesn't cost me anything.

[eliakon]

How does it damage play to make a person play with the actual written stats of the powers they picked rather than what they would like that power to do?
I mean sure the GM can always house rule things to be whatever they like, but the actual written powers seem to have been specifically designed a certain way, to do a specific certain thing. This is why they address stuff like Surprise in each power and carefully spell out how it works...because the power was intended to do a certain thing and not do other things.
I mean look at Heightened Sense of Awareness Vs. Danger Sense.
Danger Sense makes you immune to surprise, but Heightened Sense of Awareness provides an Autododge. Totally different bonuses for the same 'combat sense'
Sixth Sense can be taken by almost any sensitive and makes them very hard to kill with traps or tricks, and gives them a chance to react to many things before they should know about it....but it is a minor psionic power not a super psionic power, which is why it is not an Infallible Shield Against All Surprise and Danger

Fair questions.

Ask yourself, in play what is the point of a power? How often does the player get to use it? What steps can you the GM take to validate that selection? What can I do to make the play who picked that power feel like s/he's shining center stage?

Never flat footed. How frequently do you as the GM use ambush style attacks, vs sneak attacks? To my experience, a good ambush requires set up on the part of the bad guys, set up the PCs could well detect with a detect ambush skill check. It's complex, and requires everything to be just so. Sneak attacks tend to be situational just require the baddies realizing that the good guys have a vulnerability and look to exploit those openings. During the course of play, the players will seek to close those openings down. That is to say, they'll get better at not getting caught flat footed. So their active play will discourage that, separate from powers. So we have combat format that's not going to be used in every combat format, something that can be reduced down through the use of skill selection, and active play is reducing the opportunities for such tricks. So why take one of those powers?

A subset of the above and good demonstration is the static trap. Poison dart flying out of the wall, explosives sections of floor, a giant bolder that chases you or spring loaded blades in a wall, these set ups require a bunch of set up on the part of the villains and don't pay out too well in a world in which people can turn into air, fly, teleport or walk through walls. And that's provided they aren't just flat out immune to the effects of the trap. In D&D a trap might have some function, in Heroes Unlimited, it's questionable without the GM using it as a plot point.

How often does this get used? A power that sits on a character sheet and doesn't get used is by definition, useless. Situational powers are already several steps behind something that's always going to pay off. These types of powers tend to go into themed builds. If the player starts to feel like his themed power set isn't as good a build as the guy who just went for the straight combat god, they get frustrated. As the GM we need to put this power center stage.

How does the GM validate this selection? As I've been pointing out, a player can take these niche powers, or they can take something that just gives them an AR and SDC bump. Under the rules reading (which is legit) you gave out, harden skin pays out much better then heightened awareness. Consider these statements: 1)So this guy is shooting at me from behind cover, and there isn't anything my heightened awareness can do about it. I'll just have to soak it. 2)So this guy is shooting at me from behind cover, but he still has to beat my NAR, and I have a bunch of SDC to soak the damage that does get through from hardened skin.

How do you help the character shine? This is really the crux of the trouble. As the GM you need to validate that power selection. Not all psionics, minor powers or major powers are equal. Or even kind of equal. Or even in the same state as equal. Sometimes not even on the same continent as equal. But the GM has to build that illusion or player builds will tend towards what's the most useful. Yes heightened awareness gives you autododge, but EX:PP gives you better autododge. That is to say, you have to build the idea of equality in a game about being far more then most everyone else.

Yeah, I know.

How do you do that? Little gives. Like never being flatfooted. I'm the GM, and I have ten billion and six ways to either inflict damage on the PCs or just straight up kill the characters should I so choose. This doesn't cost me anything.

I guess I am just used to playing in games where characters picked their powers and abilities because they fit the concept of the character they were making, and not to maximize their combat potential that I don't consider trying to make every power equally useful in straight up fights.
If you want to get a combat sense power there are several options if you DON'T want combat sense and instead want something like more armor then pick an armor power, if you want autododge pick a power for autododge. If you want a whole bunch of powers for one choice ask the GM if you can make a new major power or something. What ever you do as a player though don't whine to the GM that you cant take one power and also get portions of another couple powers. Because seriously not all powers SHOULD be equally useful in every situation.

And as for questions of 'how to use powers' or 'how to run battles' that is so utterly far into the Individual GM/Player Game Style area that you can't see it from the rule book.
If a group is running games where they are constantly getting ambushed and caught flat footed it suggests to me that the intent of that particular game is to actually have ambushes and flat footing. So why would I go and say "well this campaign has this theme...but tell you what if you take this power I will toss in Immunity To Campaign Problem for free"
Validating powers is a GM job yes. But that doesn't mean that powers that are situational should be given MORE power just so that they can be more valuable. It means that the GM just has more work to make those powers/players have situations where their powers are useful (this is seen in the comic books all the time. Where no matter what the power set of a hero/group the problem can always be solved by them and doesn't require other powers that they don't have....and how even the most useless seeming power will save the day every so often)

In short no, I don't see any reason why a person that deliberately takes Heightened Sense of Awareness should get all of its bonuses PLUS the perk of the guy who took Danger Sense. If he wants Danger Sense's perk than take that power as well as Heightened Sense of Awareness. But if they take a bunch of sensory powers then chances are they are not going to have the selections to also take a bunch of physical boosts....such is life not every super hero can have every power. They have to pick and choose which ones they want.

If a group doesn't like the Palladium system of doing things they can change the system for their table, or they can use a different system that allows them to build the heroes they want.....but I can literally see no good reason to assume that the RAW should be ignored simply because some players want to get a second power for free.

<EDIT> I also think that we have gotten way off topic of "Simultaneous attacks when there's no defense" and that if we want to continue discussing the intent behind different powers and their implementation in the game that we should take it to a new topic.

[Tor]

Indefensibility of richochet might be related to the angle of attack more than the surprise.

Kind of like in N&SS I think you can't parry a sweeper knockdown attack, you're limited to dodging it.

[Niji]

HU2p133 under the Hardware Weapons' W.P. Sharpshooting #7 it mentions that the real target of a richocet shot has no opportunity to parry or dodge.

Tactically it would seem like the smart thing to do in that case is simultaneous attack, since you have nothing to lose. But should it still even be possible to do that when you're not sacrificing an opportunity.

This got me wondering about other circumstances. You can't defend against a surprise attack for example.. but is there anything preventing the target of a surprise attack from doing a simultaneous attack instead?

I don't like the feel of it since it seems to neutralize the benefits of these defense-compromising maneuvers but I can't really find anything preventing it. The only logistical limit is if you use a richochet/surprise against someone with low-range attacks while using a long-range gun.

This is a special perk for Hardware's unique and exclusive special Sharpshooting. Its not a surprise, and someone would only be able to do somehing about it if they knew they were being target (danger sense doesn't grant specific details like that, just that they are in danger and cannot be caught by surprise). Some GMs might rule for it with auto dodge (and characters that can move and percieve considerably faster than the projectile is traveling) provided that you have some sort of mind reading power to know you are the real target, and some sort of time altering or lightning speed movement.... But the main thematic of ricohet shot is that you dont get to dodge (because say you do make a movement like you are dodging it, well they 'planed' for that and ricohets off where you dodged and hits you anyway!) so ultimately, nope no avoiding it if they succeed and its a later level skill(7th I think or so) and a very special perk of a category(well sub category category). No escape unless you have an auto defense that activates indepdent of your will and instead as a reaction to about to be struck (danger sense + hyperdensity, time stop, slow projectile field, or somehing as that isn't a dodge/parry but an avoid/save). Think of it more like Xena's boomerang chamram bouncing off multiple targets as the real target tries to evade and gloat only to be struck anyway from the follow up bounce (or any of those old ricochet sharp shooting westerns! 10 or so bounces and hits the target anyway ;D!).

Now, as for simultanious attack, this is usually declared at the start of combat if you are obviously not first in intiative and you want to give up all your defense to strike the enemy at the same time.... Why a sharpshooter would be be ricohet shotting you knowing that, I am not sure unless they were first in the round and optin for this, and there is many target for her but she is the only target for your group(wow what a disadvantage i don't think any hardware charaters woukd make such a move), or you were actively reading her mind prior to the start of that round anyway to know her targets. But basically you have presented an almost impossible scenario to occur, hardware characters don usually come in sub IQ 8 forms and only a sub 8 IQ character (assuming IQ scores are being roleplayed correctly) would put themselves in such an unfavorable match up AND then use ricochet shot.... But maybe in a one on one duel on first meeting or such (but a genius would have the odds stacked against you already anyway). But any which way, there isn't a scenario where this would actually come up with even a remote possibility that wasn't in the sharpshooting hardware character's favor (again, active psionics and some nice combat/speed supers, or also being a hardware sharpshooter).

TL;DR the victim doesn't know they are the target so they cannot simultanious attack, unless the shooter was the only enemy to attack and it isn't the first round of combat or a 1 on 1 duel (which precludes the need for that attack mostly, why is she making it?? Its illogical for the most part) or the victim is actively mind reading from the previous round still/viewing the future passively and knowingly they would not be able to simultaniously attack otherwise.


Its a great exclusive perk for that subset of hardware characters, and shows the genius and crazy technical skill they possess.


To be more general: you can't simultaniously attack aoe either (except with aoe, which also doesnt offer defense to begin with anyway), the only advantage here would be dealing damage/effect at the SAME TIME instead of say, dying first/losing conciousness first and being unable to respond. You can declare simultanious attack regardless of defensability against an attack or not, because you are straight up giving up defense for potentially that round (you aren't just giving up opportunity to dodge/parry THAT OPPONENT but anyone else that wants to attack you at that same moment, intiative order getting to be ignored for a hot moment aside)

I.e. Someone casts explosion at your group, you can cast explosion at the same at your opponent so both effects hit simultaniously, but....every single npc can also simultanious attack you at the same time, basically eveyone giving up any sort of defense for all attacks to hit at the same time. Massive death everywhere, especially for the person that declared simultanious attack.

Finally: Simultanious attack is more intended as a cinematic tool in that epic 1v1 brawl in the middle of combat, each's fist slaming into the others jaw at the same moment, both samurais cuting each other in half with their blades simultaniously(except one lives because one didnt roll very high on damage dice, or they both crit and fall in half), two sharpshooters bouncing bullets everywhere and both getting hit at the same time and taking a draw (and dead$, or the two boxers throw their punches at the same time and its a double KO, etc.

Plenty of ways to exploit it, but any sane GM reserves this for cinematic fight, 1v1s, non tricky NPCs, and would overturn it anyway. So again, this situation just would never come up. Relax, and get into the cinematic aspect and stop worrying so much about really odd scenarios even if it did come up the dice would be too fickle for it to be a deal anyway (or it would be crazy spectacular) and any thinking on thhe scenario would be meaningless !!!

BENEFIT from an overthinker's suggjestions hahah

[Sir_Spirit]

Wait...sixth sense doesn't actually state that it makes it so you cannot be surprised? I'm skeptical, it's something the power offers at least in Rifts. With all the cutting and pasting they do, I find it odd it wouldn't make it into HU2 or HU.

"Can not be surprised by a sneak attack from behind" is not the same thing as "can not be surprised"
And since it explicitly goes to make the specific, limited statement it is pretty obvious that they did not mean a broader "can not be surprised at all" but that the one, specific form of surprise listed was not possible.

That bit I bolded is utter BS, PB's editting is NOT that clear and consistant. So no, you can't get away with making declaritive statements like that.
It's quite clear that 6th sense and HS of Awareness are meant to prevent you from being supprise attacked.(PB doesn't have a "flat footed" state of being anyway).

[Sir_Spirit]

if they knew they were being target (danger sense doesn't grant specific details like that, just that they are in danger and cannot be caught by surprise).

You don't need to know where at attack is coming from if you know where all the danger is (because you can sense danger) and thus where it's safe to move.

Some GMs might rule for it with auto dodge (and characters that can move and percieve considerably faster than the projectile is traveling) provided that you have some sort of mind reading power to know you are the real target, and some sort of time altering or lightning speed movement....

I see no reason for requiring any of that.

But the main thematic of ricohet shot is that you dont get to dodge (because say you do make a movement like you are dodging it, well they 'planed' for that and ricohets off where you dodged and hits you anyway!)

OK, now that is just a bit of made up fluff there. The reason one wouldn't be able to stop/avoid a ricochet is because the attack isn't coming head on, but form an unusual angle, not because it's an undetectable super attack. Let's not make it out to something other than what it is.

[eliakon]

Wait...sixth sense doesn't actually state that it makes it so you cannot be surprised? I'm skeptical, it's something the power offers at least in Rifts. With all the cutting and pasting they do, I find it odd it wouldn't make it into HU2 or HU.

"Can not be surprised by a sneak attack from behind" is not the same thing as "can not be surprised"
And since it explicitly goes to make the specific, limited statement it is pretty obvious that they did not mean a broader "can not be surprised at all" but that the one, specific form of surprise listed was not possible.

That bit I bolded is utter BS, PB's editting is NOT that clear and consistant. So no, you can't get away with making declaritive statements like that.
It's quite clear that 6th sense and HS of Awareness are meant to prevent you from being supprise attacked.(PB doesn't have a "flat footed" state of being anyway).

Actually there IS a full on surprised status. When attacked from surprise (All surprise, not just from behind) you do not get to defend against the first attack...
Since this does explicitly say that it only stops one kind of surprise, and there are explicitly more than one surprise then yes, it does mean that non-rear surprises are not detected. This is why the ricochet shot works...it is classed as a surprise attack You can house rule different if you like, but the book clearly says what it means.

And sorry people DO get to make declarative statements that what is written is what is meant. If you want to make an affirmative statement something is not what was written the burden of proof is on you to prove that it is NOT what was written. And simply saying "well no, that's not what was supposed to be said" only works if your the author.