Natural combat ability.

[SittingBull]

This is referring to the major, should be minor I found out, power in the Heroes Unlimited 2nd edition book. Under the powers write up it says the following.

"The superbeing can fight in the same style as his opponent, enabling him to counter and strike effectively. Thus, if an opponent has expert hand to hand, the charater with the Natural Combat Ability fights roughly the same level (with the bonuses listed below)."

Now from what I have heard from GMs running games on this sight I am inclined to think this is not how they are running the power. If the hero gets the hand to hand AND physical skills bonuses, his opponent has, in addition to the bonuses listed for the power then YES this is a major power. If the hero gets ONLY the bonuses his opponent has then this is truly a 'MINOR' power.

[eliakon]

The power works exactly like it says
You would look at the hand to hand chart for the hand to hand that your opponent is using (assuming that it is expert or better), then you get all the bonuses for if you were using that hand to hand (so if your opponent is H2H martial arts, and you are level 4 you now have all the abilities of a level 4 martial arts) You add to this the very impressive abilities that it offers as well.
Example
You are level 4. Thus you automatically have
7 APM
+3 Initiative
+2 Disarm/Entangle
+3 Pull Punch
Automatic Dodge
Back Flip of 78%
Paired Weapons
Exceptional Balance 76%
W.P. Everything +2

You walk up on a low grade minion who has H2H basic. You use the better of your natural Expert
+3 APM (10 Total now!)
+3 Parry
+3 Dodge
+2 Strike
+2 Initiative (for a total of +5)
Pretty impressive!
When you get to the boss who has H2H Martial Arts though with in a round now you have (added onto you base and any bonuses from other powers, stats or non physical skills recall)
+3 APM (10 again)
+3 Roll with punch
+2 Initiative (5 total)
+3 Pull Punch (+6 total)
+3 Parry
+3 Dodge
+2 Strike
+2 Disarm (+4 total)
And get kick attacks

It does not mimic physical skills unless those physical skills are plausibly hand to hand combat skills. Then depending on the GMs ruling you may or may not be able to also mimic those bonuses (so you might get to copy Boxing, but you wouldn't copy Gymnastics)
I would say that by the description that if the boss has Boxing and Wrestling then you get to add the bonuses from those too.
(That would be +1 APM, +2 Parry, +2 Dodge, +2 Roll with Punch, Automatic KO on n20, Pin/Incapacitate on a natural 18+, body block attack, crush attack....just from those two skills)

I don't know about you but I would say that starting with 10 APM is "major power" level in and of itself, before we add in the insane levels of bonuses.

[SittingBull]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

[Glistam]

You get the bonuses from the power only. What you get from the opponent's hand to hand skill is the moves from that hand to hand style.

[SittingBull]

The opinions begin, just keep things civil is all I ask.

[eliakon]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

Why would it be a minor power?
I mean it starts you off with 9 APM, the equivalent to several dozen W.P. skills (as in all of them in existence), some pretty major bonuses, and a guarantee that no foe ever will out skill you in hand to hand (Ancient Masters, Physical Training and N&SS Martial Artists fear these people...)

As for the skills, the two skills I mentioned are both explicitly combat skills, and are called out in the power description. Simply being part of a fighting style is to broad a criteria. Super Powers, Spells, Languages, Tactics....to many things fall in the realm of 'fighting style'
If a skills sole purpose in existence is hand to hand combat, then I would say it qualifies. If it simply can be used in hand to hand combat it doesn't.

[SittingBull]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

Why would it be a minor power?
I mean it starts you off with 9 APM, the equivalent to several dozen W.P. skills (as in all of them in existence), some pretty major bonuses, and a guarantee that no foe ever will out skill you in hand to hand (Ancient Masters, Physical Training and N&SS Martial Artists fear these people...)

As for the skills, the two skills I mentioned are both explicitly combat skills, and are called out in the power description. Simply being part of a fighting style is to broad a criteria. Super Powers, Spells, Languages, Tactics....to many things fall in the realm of 'fighting style'
If a skills sole purpose in existence is hand to hand combat, then I would say it qualifies. If it simply can be used in hand to hand combat it doesn't.

What about kick boxing?

One of the boards major posters said it supposed to be a minor power after they weakened it from the Rifter #1 version.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

Why would it be a minor power?
I mean it starts you off with 9 APM, the equivalent to several dozen W.P. skills (as in all of them in existence), some pretty major bonuses, and a guarantee that no foe ever will out skill you in hand to hand (Ancient Masters, Physical Training and N&SS Martial Artists fear these people...)

As for the skills, the two skills I mentioned are both explicitly combat skills, and are called out in the power description. Simply being part of a fighting style is to broad a criteria. Super Powers, Spells, Languages, Tactics....to many things fall in the realm of 'fighting style'
If a skills sole purpose in existence is hand to hand combat, then I would say it qualifies. If it simply can be used in hand to hand combat it doesn't.

The power states that at level on you start with +3 APM....this adds with the 2 APM for living to start with 5 APM. The text even states "(five total, to start)".

The char with the HU2MB NCA can not take any hand to hand skills; including boxing and wrestling and Martial Art Forms; and can not take any WP.

The WP equivlents.....only +2 strike/aimed and +2 Parry... no level bonuses for modern weapons.

[eliakon]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

Why would it be a minor power?
I mean it starts you off with 9 APM, the equivalent to several dozen W.P. skills (as in all of them in existence), some pretty major bonuses, and a guarantee that no foe ever will out skill you in hand to hand (Ancient Masters, Physical Training and N&SS Martial Artists fear these people...)

As for the skills, the two skills I mentioned are both explicitly combat skills, and are called out in the power description. Simply being part of a fighting style is to broad a criteria. Super Powers, Spells, Languages, Tactics....to many things fall in the realm of 'fighting style'
If a skills sole purpose in existence is hand to hand combat, then I would say it qualifies. If it simply can be used in hand to hand combat it doesn't.

What about kick boxing?

One of the boards major posters said it supposed to be a minor power after they weakened it from the Rifter #1 version.

Yes, the skill Kick Boxing would, IMHO be copied. But something like Aerobic Kick Boxing would not.

As for being 'weakened' from Rifter #1. Every one of the powers in Rifter #1 was revised significantly before they were put into the game officially. And every one of them still stayed a major power. The power in Rifter #1 was basically Hand to Hand: Super that got a lot of bonuses. The power in HU2 added some things (mimicry, WPs, more APM) and put in some limits (no physical skills). But its overall power level is comparable to the other major powers (broad powers in a wide range) and not the minor powers (focused in scope to one area)

Now I might accept the argument that the Rifter #1 version was a Minor Power....
Since that one is a lot weaker.

[eliakon]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

Why would it be a minor power?
I mean it starts you off with 9 APM, the equivalent to several dozen W.P. skills (as in all of them in existence), some pretty major bonuses, and a guarantee that no foe ever will out skill you in hand to hand (Ancient Masters, Physical Training and N&SS Martial Artists fear these people...)

As for the skills, the two skills I mentioned are both explicitly combat skills, and are called out in the power description. Simply being part of a fighting style is to broad a criteria. Super Powers, Spells, Languages, Tactics....to many things fall in the realm of 'fighting style'
If a skills sole purpose in existence is hand to hand combat, then I would say it qualifies. If it simply can be used in hand to hand combat it doesn't.

The power states that at level on you start with +3 APM....this adds with the 2 APM for living to start with 5 APM.

The char with the HU2MB NCA can not take any hand to hand skills, including boxing and wrestling and Martial Art Forms) and can not take any WP.

+3 APM onto their basic 2
Then they get another +2 or more from the copied H2H skill on top of this.
And as I said the physical skills here would be mimicked (thus the discussion on if you mimic combative physical skills or not)
And you start with the equivalent of all W.P.s with a fixed +2 to strike.
But yeah, okay my bad it starts you off with Seven APM not Nine I will admit the correction.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

Why would it be a minor power?
I mean it starts you off with 9 APM, the equivalent to several dozen W.P. skills (as in all of them in existence), some pretty major bonuses, and a guarantee that no foe ever will out skill you in hand to hand (Ancient Masters, Physical Training and N&SS Martial Artists fear these people...)

As for the skills, the two skills I mentioned are both explicitly combat skills, and are called out in the power description. Simply being part of a fighting style is to broad a criteria. Super Powers, Spells, Languages, Tactics....to many things fall in the realm of 'fighting style'
If a skills sole purpose in existence is hand to hand combat, then I would say it qualifies. If it simply can be used in hand to hand combat it doesn't.

The power states that at level on you start with +3 APM....this adds with the 2 APM for living to start with 5 APM.

The char with the HU2MB NCA can not take any hand to hand skills, including boxing and wrestling and Martial Art Forms) and can not take any WP.

+3 APM onto their basic 2
Then they get another +2 or more from the copied H2H skill on top of this.
And as I said the physical skills here would be mimicked (thus the discussion on if you mimic combative physical skills or not)
And you start with the equivalent of all W.P.s with a fixed +2 to strike.
But yeah, okay my bad it starts you off with Seven APM not Nine I will admit the correction.

The text does not support this.
It says they get the moves....not the bonuses of their opponent.
And if it is as you say...that would only be 7 apm.

[eliakon]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

Why would it be a minor power?
I mean it starts you off with 9 APM, the equivalent to several dozen W.P. skills (as in all of them in existence), some pretty major bonuses, and a guarantee that no foe ever will out skill you in hand to hand (Ancient Masters, Physical Training and N&SS Martial Artists fear these people...)

As for the skills, the two skills I mentioned are both explicitly combat skills, and are called out in the power description. Simply being part of a fighting style is to broad a criteria. Super Powers, Spells, Languages, Tactics....to many things fall in the realm of 'fighting style'
If a skills sole purpose in existence is hand to hand combat, then I would say it qualifies. If it simply can be used in hand to hand combat it doesn't.

The power states that at level on you start with +3 APM....this adds with the 2 APM for living to start with 5 APM.

The char with the HU2MB NCA can not take any hand to hand skills, including boxing and wrestling and Martial Art Forms) and can not take any WP.

+3 APM onto their basic 2
Then they get another +2 or more from the copied H2H skill on top of this.
And as I said the physical skills here would be mimicked (thus the discussion on if you mimic combative physical skills or not)
And you start with the equivalent of all W.P.s with a fixed +2 to strike.
But yeah, okay my bad it starts you off with Seven APM not Nine I will admit the correction.

The text does not support this.
It says they get the moves....not the bonuses of their opponent.

It explicitly says that you fight with the comparable style of Hand to Hand expert, and it goes to pains to say that you copy the bonuses of the skill you are using.
Hand to Hand expert skill gives +2 APM at level one. Thus you get two more attacks when using Expert (you will only get one attack if using Assassin or some other styles) Unless the claim is that you do not get any of the bonuses of the hand to hand skills. Because you either get all the bonuses or none of them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The HU2MB NCA states that that they only get the moves from the copied h2h.

It specifically states that they only get the bonuses listed in the power.

It specifically states that the char fights at his own level and not the levels of the opponent copied.

It specifically states that when fighting wimps and unskilled their style is equivalent to h2h ex.

Yes, there is some of the text that could be misread to mean something else if the rest of the text is not considered in their meaning.

[13eowulf]

There are others on the boards so say its supposed to be a minor power though.

Why would you get some physical skills and not others. What if the opponent was one who used, say, gymnastics in their fighting style?

I have not seen this (arguments that Natural Combat Ability should be a Minor) mentioned anywhere, would you be able to link to such a thread?

[SittingBull]

Side question. Why does Natural Combat Ability give NO bonus to strike unless you have a weapon? I always thought that weird.

[eliakon]

The HU2MB NCA Clearly states that that they only get the moves from the copied h2h.

I missed that, can you provide the exact quote that states this?

It specifically states that they only get the bonuses listed in the power.

Incorrect it states that they automatically get the bonuses. There is no exclusive language that makes these the sum total of all their bonuses ever. They get the bonuses listed on top of the copied skill. (this is one of the reasons why this is the major power Natural Combat Ability and not the Minor Power Hand to Hand: Super Power)
This is why my original post was broken down like it was.

t specifically states that the char fights at his own level and not the levels of the opponent copied.

Which is why in my example I used H2H Expert and H2H Martial Arts level 4 bonuses. Even if the minion was level 1 you would fight at level 4, and even if the boss was level 6 you would still fight at level 4.

It specifically states that when fighting wimps and unskilled their style is equivalent to h2h ex.

Yes, and if we look on page 71 of HU we can see what that entails

[eliakon]

Side question. Why does Natural Combat Ability give NO bonus to strike unless you have a weapon? I always thought that weird.

Because you can simply leech a Strike Bonus from the H2H style your using at the time, and don't forget your PP (I have rarely seen a person take this power and not also have a massive PP), or any other super powers you have.

[drewkitty ~..~]

moves: End of the 2nd sentence.
bonuses: end of the third sentence in (). and the 1st sentence in #1. nat fighting ability, grace and speed:

I was stating what the text did say.
------------
No where in the NCA in the MB does it say that the hero leaches bonuses from their opponent.

[eliakon]

moves: End of the 2nd sentence.
bonuses: end of the third sentence in ().

I was stating what the text did say.
------------
No where in the NCA in the MB does it say that the hero leaches bonuses from their opponent.

If you get no bonuses then you cant exactly be fighting at their equivalent can you

The best support for this though is in Skraypers where the NPC with the power lists their bonuses and then explicitly goes to pains to say that "Note, this ability enables the character to fight with the same skill level, style, moves and Hand to Hand Bonuses as his opponent, plus his own bonuses from the Natural Combat Ability and Attribute. The minimal bonuses to strike parry and dodge are equal to Hand to Hand: Expert"

<Edit> An interesting note to this. It was pointed out to me that the sample NPC does not get the APM boost from their H2H skill. Which suggests that either 1) that ability is not copied or 2) this NPC has fewer APM than they should

[drewkitty ~..~]

Looking at the Scrapers' NCA text I find a Third version of the power. And has the opinion that KS should not of changed the Scrapers text when he moved it to the HU2 MB. Cause the changes of the text made it weaker.....for a 2nd time.

The HU2 MB the power does not leach off bonuses the opponent.
The Scrapers the power does leach off the opponents h2h bonuses to strike parry dodge and damage. It does not leach off APM nor Init bonuses.

Even if using the Scrapers' NCA the starting APM is still 5.

[13eowulf]

moves: End of the 2nd sentence.
bonuses: end of the third sentence in (). and the 1st sentence in #1. nat fighting ability, grace and speed:

I was stating what the text did say.
------------
No where in the NCA in the MB does it say that the hero leaches bonuses from their opponent.

Second sentence in full is:
"He can face and use virtually any fighting style imaginable (type of martial arts, boxing, wrestling, etc.) and within 15 seconds, adapt to fight on roughly the same level, using the same techniques and moves."

To me the explicit inclusion of boxing and wrestling, physical skills in all canon Palladium books, not H2H styles, lends credence to the idea that bonuses are emulated (after the 15 seconds), for otherwise there is no need to list them at all.

Further the phrase 'techniques and moves' indicates MORE than 'just' moves are emulated, which, from a mechanics standpoint, can only mean bonuses.


The Third sentence in full is:
"The superbeing can fight in the same style as his opponent, enabling him to counter and strike effectively."

I think you may have been referring to the fourth sentence:
"Thus, if an opponent has expert hand to hand, the character with Natural Combat Ability fights on roughly the same level (with the bonuses listed below)."

The underlined portion would indicate that the bonuses listed later in the power are in addition to any emulated bonuses, given the definition and use of the word 'with' (in particular the definition of 'In addition to; as an accessory to').

[drewkitty ~..~]

As with most of the PB game text, they are maddeningly not quite specific. Thus I was only saying what they specifically said without 'interpretation'.

Another interpretation of the use of the word techniques in that sentence might lead them to include the MA techniques from N&S and MC.
-----
Again I was only saying what the text actually said w/o interpretation. So..... Without the techniques interpretation the "(with the bonuses listed below)." phrasing means only the bonuses from the power.
----------------
Besides with the discovery of the Scrapers version of the power I have basically conceded most points, so long as the scrapers version is used.

I still don't like the HU2 MB version of the power due to the reasons I have stated.

[eliakon]

As with most of the PB game text, they are maddeningly not quite specific. Thus I was only saying what they specifically said without 'interpretation'.

No such thing. You automatically have to interpret the words and derive which meaning you will choose to weight them with when you read them. This isn't math where things can exist in a vacuum.

Another interpretation of the use of the word techniques in that sentence might lead them to include the MA techniques from N&S and MC.

There is absolutely no doubt that you would get them. It is pretty explicit that you get all techniques known and used by your foe, if they have a MAF that grants a MA Technique you explicitly get it.

-----

Again I was only saying what the text actually said w/o interpretation. So..... Without the techniques interpretation the "(with the bonuses listed below)." phrasing means only the bonuses from the power.

No you were stating what you feel the text says when weighted with the interpretation you use. As Wulf pointed out for instance you can not simply read a couple words of a sentence out of context, but must read the entire sentence. Also as Wulf pointed out you have to choose which interpretation of each word you want to decide if it means only the bonuses or if it is inclusive. Deciding that it is exclusive requires interpreting the text as it does not explicitly state this.


----------------

Besides with the discovery of the Scrapers version of the power I have basically conceded most points, so long as the scrapers version is used.

I still don't like the HU2 MB version of the power due to the reasons I have stated.

I do not think that there is a difference. I think that Scrapers is explicitly making clear what the HU2 book says. Or more simply that these are the exact same power, with the exact same bonuses, the exact same abilities. Just one goes the extra mile and spells everything out explicitly for us. Possibly because people were not using the HU2 power in the correct way and assigning it limitations and weaknesses that it did not RAW posses.

[drewkitty ~..~]

sorry but words can be as specific as math if the words are chosen well. Being chosen well to mean 'a specific idea' is not the normal state of affairs with most PB writing that gets argued over. This is one of those times.
-------
Sorry again but I am not going to get into a philosophical discussion about word meanings. I said what I meant, that sticking to it that the non-ambiguous sections, and not adding my interpretations to the ambiguous sections of the text, of the MB version of the power only gets the bonuses listed in the listed stats.
Again I am not going to argue about things that you want to argue about because of the non-specific nature of the text you want to argue about all sides are equal.
--------
Sorry again, but they are different versions of the power in two books of different settings. They are two because the text is different. If you as a GM want to have the HU2 MB version's text to mean what the text of the Scrapers' version Actually Says...that is your prerogative in your games. But when push comes to shove the MB version does not say what the Scrapers' version does. So the two versions of the power are different because the texts are different.
-------
techniques: I did point out that to some people would jump on the interpretation that way. However, this falls under GM choice if it will be allowed. Because there is doubt about whether or not they would get them at all because said MA techniques are not of the HU setting. The NCA MIGHT!!! be able to copy the N&S MAT, but not the CMATs from MC. Then there is the 1 shot -life -kill MAT that is not a melee combat MAT and how is the NCA char going to copy someone who's 1st action is to kill the char?

Which is why I try not to make broad statements so I don't get foot in mouth. Which does mean I try to read the text critically when arguing a points.
--------------
'Could be implying' is not saying it specifically.
'Could be interpreted as' is not saying it specifically.
'Actually saying what is meant' is saying it specifically.

[SittingBull]

Wow...

[eliakon]

sorry but words can be as specific as math if the words are chosen well. Being chosen well to mean 'a specific idea' is not the normal state of affairs with most PB writing that gets argued over. This is one of those times.

I would say that no, I am sorry that you can not make a concrete expression of ideas that takes no interpretation.
<edit> revised due to point 3

-------

Sorry again but I am not going to get into a philosophical discussion about word meanings.

Then don't start one. This is exactly that your arguing that there is a special philosophical meaning to the words that you are privy to that allows you to make an ex-cathedra statement on meaning, intent and ambiguity. That is pretty much the definition of starting a discussion on word meanings.

I said what I meant, that sticking to it that the non-ambiguous sections,

Of which there are none. As in no part of this text is explicit clear cut and dried with no ambiguity. This was made excrutiatintly clear by Wulf when he specifically pointed out each section you had and its multiple meanings. By definition if something has multiple meanings then it sort of requires interpretation to read and that is the definition of ambiguous. (that at least is a word area that is pretty clear and not ambiguous, I will revise my first statement)

and not adding my interpretations to the ambiguous sections of the text, of the MB version of the power only gets the bonuses listed in the listed stats.

Again your choosing to interpret the text the way you want, and claiming that only the word use you deem valid is the true one. This is by definition interpretation.

Again I am not going to argue about things that you want to argue about because of the non-specific nature of the text you want to argue about all sides are equal.

What we are arguing about is which interpretation of the text as a whole is valid. Cherry picking one or two words out of context does not prove anything since there is no 'specific nature' to them any more than simple stating that the word "Hero" was used in the power so it can only be take by good guys, and never used by criminals.....

Sorry again, but they are different versions of the power in two books of different settings. They are two because the text is different. If you as a GM want to have the HU2 MB version's text to mean what the text of the Scrapers' version Actually Says...that is your prerogative in your games. But when push comes to shove the MB version does not say what the Scrapers' version does. So the two versions of the power are different because the texts are different.

Except that they DO say the same thing.
The Scrapers version just says more fully what the HU2 version says
This is what is know as 'expanding on' When I write more on a subject that does not mean that I have suddenly written a new topic. A digest of a journal article is not a different research study than the full article....

-------

techniques: I did point out that to some people would jump on the interpretation that way. However, this falls under GM choice if it will be allowed. Because there is doubt about whether or not they would get them at all because said MA techniques are not of the HU setting. The NCA MIGHT!!! be able to copy the N&S MAT, but not the CMATs from MC. Then there is the 1 shot -life -kill MAT that is not a melee combat MAT and how is the NCA char going to copy someone who's 1st action is to kill the char?

We are now back to arguing interpretations though aren't we? Or can is the claim that words only mean what they say when it agrees with your position. The power explicitly says 'copies the techniques' ergo if a person has an MAF and that MAF has a Technique, RAW those are copied. Techniques are Techniques are Techniques. Period. Dot. End of story. The GM can choose to change things from what is written of course to make this not so of course. And this says nothing of any of the other abilities from MAFs, but Techniques are explicitly copied.
The argument that the MAF forms are not in the HU setting is sophistry at its finest since the explicit statement was about the interaction of the power and the MAF. Thus for the interaction to occur the power and the MAF would have to exist simultaneously in the same setting, world, and infact the wielders of each would have to personally face off. Thus trying to claim that they don't really exist together so they cant copy is sophistry, as the claim put forth had as one of its implied premises that they were.

Which is why I try not to make broad statements so I don't get foot in mouth. Which does mean I try to read the text critically when arguing a points.
'Could be implying' is not saying it specifically.
'Could be interpreted as' is not saying it specifically.
'Actually saying what is meant' is saying it specifically.

[/quote][/quote]
However you are making broad statements here. When you make a universal claim about the exact meaning of a sentence that is pretty broad. When you claim that the meaning of a sentence is one thing and one thing alone that is pretty broad.
If you do not wish to make broad claims then use such words as "I do not feel that this sentence has multiple interpretations" or "I feel that this sentence is clearly saying that" This is different than saying "This sentence says"
The second is a universal categorical statement and thus is about as broad as it get. And yes people should expect universal categorical statements to be challenges and sourced. (Note 'Because I said so' is not considered a valid support)

[The Beast]

moves: End of the 2nd sentence.
bonuses: end of the third sentence in (). and the 1st sentence in #1. nat fighting ability, grace and speed:

I was stating what the text did say.
------------
No where in the NCA in the MB does it say that the hero leaches bonuses from their opponent.

Second sentence in full is:
"He can face and use virtually any fighting style imaginable (type of martial arts, boxing, wrestling, etc.) and within 15 seconds, adapt to fight on roughly the same level, using the same techniques and moves."

To me the explicit inclusion of boxing and wrestling, physical skills in all canon Palladium books, not H2H styles, lends credence to the idea that bonuses are emulated (after the 15 seconds), for otherwise there is no need to list them at all.

Further the phrase 'techniques and moves' indicates MORE than 'just' moves are emulated, which, from a mechanics standpoint, can only mean bonuses.


The Third sentence in full is:
"The superbeing can fight in the same style as his opponent, enabling him to counter and strike effectively."

I think you may have been referring to the fourth sentence:
"Thus, if an opponent has expert hand to hand, the character with Natural Combat Ability fights on roughly the same level (with the bonuses listed below)."

The underlined portion would indicate that the bonuses listed later in the power are in addition to any emulated bonuses, given the definition and use of the word 'with' (in particular the definition of 'In addition to; as an accessory to').

I'm reading it as "You have your opponent's Hand-to-Hand style, but you use the bonuses listed below instead of your opponent's bonuses."

[SittingBull]

Then why have your opponents hand to hand if you get no bonuses?

[13eowulf]

moves: End of the 2nd sentence.
bonuses: end of the third sentence in (). and the 1st sentence in #1. nat fighting ability, grace and speed:

I was stating what the text did say.
------------
No where in the NCA in the MB does it say that the hero leaches bonuses from their opponent.

Second sentence in full is:
"He can face and use virtually any fighting style imaginable (type of martial arts, boxing, wrestling, etc.) and within 15 seconds, adapt to fight on roughly the same level, using the same techniques and moves."

To me the explicit inclusion of boxing and wrestling, physical skills in all canon Palladium books, not H2H styles, lends credence to the idea that bonuses are emulated (after the 15 seconds), for otherwise there is no need to list them at all.

Further the phrase 'techniques and moves' indicates MORE than 'just' moves are emulated, which, from a mechanics standpoint, can only mean bonuses.


The Third sentence in full is:
"The superbeing can fight in the same style as his opponent, enabling him to counter and strike effectively."

I think you may have been referring to the fourth sentence:
"Thus, if an opponent has expert hand to hand, the character with Natural Combat Ability fights on roughly the same level (with the bonuses listed below)."

The underlined portion would indicate that the bonuses listed later in the power are in addition to any emulated bonuses, given the definition and use of the word 'with' (in particular the definition of 'In addition to; as an accessory to').

I'm reading it as "You have your opponent's Hand-to-Hand style, but you use the bonuses listed below instead of your opponent's bonuses."

Which definition of the word 'with' are you using to arrive at that?

[Glistam]

Then why have your opponents hand to hand if you get no bonuses?

Because different moves are available based on the Hand to Hand style. It's much more noticable at higher levels but even at low levels it can make a difference. It's probably a lot more useful though when N&SS martial arts forms are allowed in the game. But even a Physical Training character or Ancient Master can be suitably caught off guard when the mutant with this power starts using their own combat style tricks against them.

[SittingBull]

If they dont get bonuses AND attacks per melee, then I wouldn't count it as a major power.

[Glistam]

If they dont get bonuses AND attacks per melee, then I wouldn't count it as a major power.

I feel the bonuses the power already provide make it worth remaining a major power. Remember that it also provides proficiency with every weapon. That's a pretty powerful "minor" ability. But, I suppose if a G.M. were to tell me that in their game the power was downgraded to being a Minor power, I would absolutely jump all over that without a second thought!

[13eowulf]

If they dont get bonuses AND attacks per melee, then I wouldn't count it as a major power.

The way I read the power it gets quite the bonuses, and even though it wouldnt get the extra attacks it seems to me more than potent enough to be a major.

[SittingBull]

With bonuses, then yes, a major.

[SittingBull]

If they dont get bonuses AND attacks per melee, then I wouldn't count it as a major power.

I feel the bonuses the power already provide make it worth remaining a major power. Remember that it also provides proficiency with every weapon. That's a pretty powerful "minor" ability. But, I suppose if a G.M. were to tell me that in their game the power was downgraded to being a Minor power, I would absolutely jump all over that without a second thought!

If it were a minor I wouldnt automatically take it, it would have to fit the charact concept.

[Glistam]

If they dont get bonuses AND attacks per melee, then I wouldn't count it as a major power.

I feel the bonuses the power already provide make it worth remaining a major power. Remember that it also provides proficiency with every weapon. That's a pretty powerful "minor" ability. But, I suppose if a G.M. were to tell me that in their game the power was downgraded to being a Minor power, I would absolutely jump all over that without a second thought!

If it were a minor I wouldnt automatically take it, it would have to fit the charact concept.

If you're building to a specific concept then it doesn't matter if it's major or minor.

[SittingBull]

If they dont get bonuses AND attacks per melee, then I wouldn't count it as a major power.

I feel the bonuses the power already provide make it worth remaining a major power. Remember that it also provides proficiency with every weapon. That's a pretty powerful "minor" ability. But, I suppose if a G.M. were to tell me that in their game the power was downgraded to being a Minor power, I would absolutely jump all over that without a second thought!

If it were a minor I wouldnt automatically take it, it would have to fit the charact concept.

If you're building to a specific concept then it doesn't matter if it's major or minor.

Depends on relative to the concept natural combat ability would be. If there are more important powers, it could get bumped. You can only get so many major/minor powers.

[Tor]

I am getting an upsetting deja-vu as if I had already replied to this thread in extensive detail, but there was more discussion of Skraypers not just by myself but other posters... am I losing it? Could not find it in my post record... possibly I typed it up but didn't send it? I do recall being vary tired and just closing a bunch of open windows, I think some of them might've been threads... arg.

I'll reiterate the points I can remember addressing.

The best support for this though is in Skraypers where the NPC with the power lists their bonuses and then explicitly goes to pains to say that "Note, this ability enables the character to fight with the same skill level, style, moves and Hand to Hand Bonuses as his opponent, plus his own bonuses from the Natural Combat Ability and Attribute. The minimal bonuses to strike parry and dodge are equal to Hand to Hand: Expert"

<Edit> An interesting note to this. It was pointed out to me that the sample NPC does not get the APM boost from their H2H skill. Which suggests that either 1) that ability is not copied or 2) this NPC has fewer APM than they should

Not only the NPC, but also the reprint of the power in the back of the book also notes to use these bonuses.

I believe this was because in Rifts (pre-RUE) you did not get the 2 for living? Or is it short even considering that?

This is also why he doesn't get an initiative bonus from HtH expert because it only gave an initiative bonus in HU2 and the Rifts version of Expert did not provide one.

[SittingBull]

So... After one melee, adapt the hand to hand of your opponent, unless they have expert or basic then use the character's expert hth, gaining everything from the appropriate hth but at the character's level. Bonuses from combat oriented physical skills* are also gained. All this is in addition to the bonuses listed under the power.

[Glistam]

I guess if the power is copying the Hand to Hand bonuses along with the moves of the opponent, it maintains a sort of balance by forcing the character with Natural Combat Ability to have to wait a full melee round before they get those bonuses. Even if the character will get the "default" Hand to Hand Expert bonuses, it still takes a melee round for it all to kick in. I can approve of this interpretation.

[Tor]

Since Expert is a built-in default I'd let them have that from the get-go and after a melee round of Expert can opt to change to something else if the opponent has it.

[Glistam]

Since Expert is a built-in default I'd let them have that from the get-go and after a melee round of Expert can opt to change to something else if the opponent has it.

That doesn't seem to mesh with the spirit of the power to me. I'd make them wait a melee.

[say652]

I like the power as is, but do support making the book version a minor power.

[SittingBull]

The way, most say it is here, makes is a definite major power but to each GM their own.

[say652]

Using the power as written,i at first was like sure its a major.....that doesnt increase attributes or sdc....give any specific immunities or resistances...and is extremely under powered to be in the Major Power section.

Perhaps using a special ruling of Natural Combat Ability can be purchased for 2 minor power slots seems a little more balanced.

[SittingBull]

It gives massive bonuses.

[Tor]

Since Expert is a built-in default I'd let them have that from the get-go and after a melee round of Expert can opt to change to something else if the opponent has it.

That doesn't seem to mesh with the spirit of the power to me. I'd make them wait a melee.

Being able to use Expert when your opponent only has Basic doesn't mesh with the spirit of the power either.

Either ignore the bit about Expert entirely, or allow it to be used at all times, is all that makes sense to me.

doesnt increase attributes or sdc....give any specific immunities or resistances...

It gives you a resistance to horror factor, possession, mind control and strikes via savings throw bonuses against them.

[SittingBull]

Since Expert is a built-in default I'd let them have that from the get-go and after a melee round of Expert can opt to change to something else if the opponent has it.

That doesn't seem to mesh with the spirit of the power to me. I'd make them wait a melee.

Being able to use Expert when your opponent only has Basic doesn't mesh with the spirit of the power either.

Either ignore the bit about Expert entirely, or allow it to be used at all times, is all that makes sense to me.

doesnt increase attributes or sdc....give any specific immunities or resistances...

It gives you a resistance to horror factor, possession, mind control and strikes via savings throw bonuses against them.

Some have said that a few combat related physical skills, like boxing, would also be adapted so a few bonuses (in this instance) would occur.

[say652]

I let this one slide into an I over powered minor power list.

Just like Control Static Electricity...