Munchkin vs Minor Hero O.o

[say652]

Today, I shall attempt to munchkin up a Minor Hero.
Using the minor hero power category.so no sdc bonus. Attributes limited to 30. But reducing attacks, um that's dumb. Not reducing powers, again dumb.

So Begins, The Munchkin Minor Hero Build. Muahahahaha.

[say652]

Education: Trade School.
Physical: Blackvault skills.
Espionage: Blackvault Skills.
10 secondary skills.

One major.1/2 range, damage, duration & sdc reduced 30%.
Alter physical structure Ice.

One Minor.
Sidestep.

[say652]

Ok agreed upon Penalties:-1/3sdc, -2 attacks,All super powers ranges, duration,damage and effect 1/2.

Chill.
"Watch your mouth! I'll be on you like a spider monkey!"

Captured at 10 by a demon possessed serial killer held captive for three years. He first found Strength, his Symbiote. The Sentient being bonded with Chill and helped him dispatch his torturer. He then helped and encouraged his host to strengthen his mind and body. Three years later. The hero Chill emerged.

Minor Symbiote Hero.
Level 1.
Unprincipled Alignment.
IQ:17.
Me:21.
Ma:11.
Ps:17(Extraordinary Ice form).
Pp:25.
Pe:25.
Pb:11.
Spd:17(x2 ice form).
Hp:40+1D6per level.
Sdc:37 Ice Form Sdc:72. Ar:14.
Host Benefits: Increased Reflexes, Breathe water, air and vacuum no time limit, Resistant to Fire and Extreme Heat, Impervious to Disease.

Age:16 sex:male Height: 4'11" weight:98 lbs x2 ice form.
Appearance: a scrawny pale kid with poofy Brown hair and brown eyes with 80% of his body Covered in a slimy wrap, looks like an icy blue and white coating.

Super Powers.
Alter Physical Structure Ice.
Regrow Limbs.
Sidestep.

Feat:Combat Reflexes.

Trade School Education.
3 physical.
2 espionage.
1 Combat Related.
2 Expulsion Power Control.
+15% these Skills.

Skills.
Horror Desensitization.
Torture Resistance.
Savingthrow skill.
Detect Powers 35%+4% level.
(Energy) Ice Attack Precision.
Impact Zone.
Wrestling(revised).
Pilates.

Secondary Skills.
Hand to hand Martial Arts.
First Aid.
Athletics.
Climbing.
Prowl.
Swim.
Pilot Automobile.
Math Basic.
American.
Literacy American.
Wp:knife.

Combat Style: Martial Arts.
+5: Iniative.
2: Attacks.
+7: Strike.
+8: Parry.
+8: Dodge.
+16:Auto Sidestep.
+8:Auto Sidestep Bullets& Energy.
+8: AutoDodge.
+6: Roll with Impact.
Half damage failed roll.
No damage kinetic if made.
+3: Pull punch.

Other Bonuses.
+2 vs Horror Factor.
+8 vs Insanity.
+5 vs Possession.
+11 vs Pain.
+6 vs Mind Control.
+5 vs Psionics.
+7 vs Magic.
+40% coma/death.
+6 vs Poison.

[NMI]

Why have "Energy Attack Precision" skill when the PC does not have any energy attacks?

[say652]

I have a wide variety of ice, snow and frost powers that deal damage. Ice daggers or ice manacles for example.
I really wanted to give him Hand to Hand Brick. The image of the tiny hero manhandling villians would have been amusing. Lol. Especially in his normal form.

[Regularguy]

Minor Hero with Invulnerability and Wingless Flight could work.

Or a Minor Hero with Mimic and, say, Vocalization; figure he usually mimics his physical powerhouse teammate, who (a) can bodyguard him when the Minor Hero needs to work some mind control -- and figure said teammate (b) gets located in the first place via said mind control?

(At that, Invulnerability plus Vocalization would be pretty solid.)

[say652]

It was a fun exercise in mediocrity. Lol.

All around solid character. The education helped a lot. Losing two attacks, nut really a fan. And the 1/3 sdc reduction, again ugh.

I still feel a fairly useful battle buddy character was created.

[Regularguy]

I might be missing something, but: for full munchkininess, couldn't he still be a Minor Hero while also being a Mega-Hero?

[say652]

I was attempting to stay with guidelines of power category.

Personally, if you give the 2 attacks back, Chill is pretty awesome.

[Regularguy]

I was attempting to stay with guidelines of power category.

What guidelines? I didn't see anything in there about ruling out Supernatural Strength in particular, or being a Mega-Hero in general.

[NMI]

To whoever asked about making the PC a "minor hero / mega hero"... no. Read the "template" for Minor Hero.

I like how the PC is meant to be a minor hero, but yet, you made your own penalties for one.

The secondary skill selections make more sense than the regular skills you took - still not a single one of your powers is an "energy expulsion" based power so I dont see how Energy Expulsion Precision is of use to you.

Where / why did they learn the "saving throw skill" or Horror Desensitization Torture Resistance

[say652]

Involuntary he was just tortured and mentally strong enough to come through. The symbiote is a sentinent psionic and bonded with him young enough and soon enough to counter the damage. I figured I have the Rescuer be The Rhinotaur, Power Master. Witches are far stronger than originally thought. No.way a Minor Hero could defeat one.

[say652]

Cold is an energy attack. It deals energy damage.
He has ranged versions of this ability that affect others, the skills apply.

[Regularguy]

To whoever asked about making the PC a "minor hero / mega hero"... no. Read the "template" for Minor Hero.

I did. I didn't see a 'no' on making an Alien a Mega-Hero; I didn't see a 'no' on making a Mutant, or a Latent Psionic, a Mega-Hero; I didn't see a 'no' on making a Supersoldier, or an Empowered character, a Mega-Hero; I did see that one should "avoid the Bionic, Robot, Hardware and Special Training Power Categories" -- followed by a quick note that the "others, even Physical Training, are all suitable for becoming a Mega-Hero" -- but try as I might, I honestly didn't see a 'no' on making a Minor Hero a Mega-Hero.

[Razorwing]

To whoever asked about making the PC a "minor hero / mega hero"... no. Read the "template" for Minor Hero.

I did. I didn't see a 'no' on making an Alien a Mega-Hero; I didn't see a 'no' on making a Mutant, or a Latent Psionic, a Mega-Hero; I didn't see a 'no' on making a Supersoldier, or an Empowered character, a Mega-Hero; I did see that one should "avoid the Bionic, Robot, Hardware and Special Training Power Categories" -- followed by a quick note that the "others, even Physical Training, are all suitable for becoming a Mega-Hero" -- but try as I might, I honestly didn't see a 'no' on making a Minor Hero a Mega-Hero.

Just as the Mega-Hero is an option to make a base power category template more powerful by giving them enhancements, the Minor Hero option is designed to make the base power category templates less powerful by imposing limits on their powers and abilities. To combine the two options on one category more or less defeats the purpose of either. Mega Heroes are intended to battle world wide and galactic level threats... while minor heroes are meant to take on small town or neighborhood threats.

The simple fact that the Minor Hero has options to making every power category less powerful while not mentioning a thing about Mega Heroes should indicate that the two should not be combined. The Mega-Hero isn't a power category of its own... rather just an optional addition for existing power categories... just like the Minor Hero.

[Regularguy]

Just as the Mega-Hero is an option to make a base power category template more powerful by giving them enhancements, the Minor Hero option is designed to make the base power category templates less powerful by imposing limits on their powers and abilities.

The Mega-Hero isn't a power category of its own... rather just an optional addition for existing power categories... just like the Minor Hero.

Well, that's not quite true, is it? I mean, yeah, there's stuff in there on how to apply the Minor Hero option to a Mutant or a Supersoldier and so on -- but right before all of that, they spell out how you can just play a Minor Hero as a standalone power category in its own right.

I don't see a section on playing a Mega Hero in its own right; it's just an option for other power categories. But I sure as heck see one for the Minor Hero, which -- like the Mutant or the Supersoldier or whatever -- can be its own power category whether or not a template modifies it.

To combine the two options on one category more or less defeats the purpose of either. Mega Heroes are intended to battle world wide and galactic level threats... while minor heroes are meant to take on small town or neighborhood threats.

Well, again, (a) this is a thread explicitly asking for a munchkin approach to the Minor Hero; and (b) the fact that a Mega-Hero can be a Physical Training guy is arguably even weirder -- unless you think that guy can be expected to handle worldwide-and-galactic stuff, with or without throwing in a vulnerability to some common substance and a slower experience progression.

I can readily imagine a Minor Hero -- the standalone power category, not the modifier -- pulling his weight at that level without actually being a Mega Hero; I'm less ready to imagine a Physical Training guy managing it, Mega Hero or no.

(Heck, I can more readily imagine a Minor Hero pulling his weight at that level than imagine an Enchanted Object guy doing it, Mega Hero or no.)

[Glistam]

Ugh. Don't get me started on the Enchanted Object hero category.

[Razorwing]

Well, that's not quite true, is it? I mean, yeah, there's stuff in there on how to apply the Minor Hero option to a Mutant or a Supersoldier and so on -- but right before all of that, they spell out how you can just play a Minor Hero as a standalone power category in its own right.

Actually... I don't see where you found the information to play a Minor Hero as its own power category when it explicitly tells you that you construct the character as normal by choosing one of the normal Power Categories (Hardware, Physical Training, etc.) and then apply the following limitations. It sounds... almost word for word... the same as how you build a Mega Hero (though in that case you add extra bonuses and abilities rather than limitations).

[Regularguy]

Actually... I don't see where you found the information to play a Minor Hero as its own power category when it explicitly tells you that you construct the character as normal by choosing one of the normal Power Categories (Hardware, Physical Training, etc.) and then apply the following limitations.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong? I'm at the bit that says "Roll on the following table if making a Minor Hero right off the bat, here and now: 01-25% Two Minor super abilities (no Major). 25-50% One Major super ability (no Minor). 50-75% Three Minor super abilities (no Major). 76-00% One Major super ability and one Minor. Otherwise, each existing Power Category is limited in a slightly different way to create a minor hero. The following is a list of the modifications to each category to create the Minor Hero."

That's of course followed by a new heading: Modifying Other Power Categories.

It then adds that you can play an Immortal as a Minor Hero -- without stopping to rule out the Immortals who are Mega-Heroes, because that's apparently fine, which I guess makes the rest of this dispute kind of irrelevant, since you can totally "Roll up as a Mega-Hero" for a Minor Hero godling who has Supernatural Strength and "does not need to eat or drink for nourishment" and has the Immortal power described "in the Mega-Hero section".

But that's not my point.

My point is, if it's not an "otherwise" case -- if it's not modifying one of the "other" power categories -- then we don't look at the rule for modifying a Mutant, or, or the somewhat different rule for modifying a Eugenic character, or the somewhat different rule for modifying an Immortal Mega-Hero; we simply make a Minor Hero right off the bat, and we're, like, already ready already.

[Glistam]

There were changes made between the first printing and the subsequent printings of the PU2 book (for example, Natural Genius is a Mega-Hero according to the second and later printings). Perhaps you two should compare which printing you are referencing?

[Nekira Sudacne]

To whoever asked about making the PC a "minor hero / mega hero"... no. Read the "template" for Minor Hero.

I did. I didn't see a 'no' on making an Alien a Mega-Hero; I didn't see a 'no' on making a Mutant, or a Latent Psionic, a Mega-Hero; I didn't see a 'no' on making a Supersoldier, or an Empowered character, a Mega-Hero; I did see that one should "avoid the Bionic, Robot, Hardware and Special Training Power Categories" -- followed by a quick note that the "others, even Physical Training, are all suitable for becoming a Mega-Hero" -- but try as I might, I honestly didn't see a 'no' on making a Minor Hero a Mega-Hero.

Didn't Powers Unlimited 2 come after the Revised Second Edition? if so, then naturally it wouldn't reference minor heroes. they didn't exist at the time of writing.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Today, I shall attempt to munchkin up a Minor Hero.
Using the minor hero power category.so no sdc bonus. Attributes limited to 30. But reducing attacks, um that's dumb. Not reducing powers, again dumb.

So Begins, The Munchkin Minor Hero Build. Muahahahaha.

I want to do a minor hero that dosn't have the limitations of a minor hero? That seems Strange. if you want to munchkin a minor hero, don't houserule it at all. No rifter or blackvault powers or anything that isn't in the HU book or Powers Unlimited 1, 2, and 3. Make it 100% offical by the book. that's the true munchkin way

[Glistam]

Today, I shall attempt to munchkin up a Minor Hero.
Using the minor hero power category.so no sdc bonus. Attributes limited to 30. But reducing attacks, um that's dumb. Not reducing powers, again dumb.

So Begins, The Munchkin Minor Hero Build. Muahahahaha.

I want to do a minor hero that dosn't have the limitations of a minor hero? That seems Strange. if you want to munchkin a minor hero, don't houserule it at all. No rifter or blackvault powers or anything that isn't in the HU book or Powers Unlimited 1, 2, and 3. Make it 100% offical by the book. that's the true munchkin way

Show 'em how it's done, Nekira!

[Regularguy]

Didn't Powers Unlimited 2 come after the Revised Second Edition? if so, then naturally it wouldn't reference minor heroes. they didn't exist at the time of writing.

No, I get that. My point is, I see where the Mega-Hero entry ruled out certain stuff, and I see where the Minor Hero entry ruled out certain stuff, but I don't see where the Minor Hero entry ruled out being a Mega-Hero. I wouldn't expect to see it in the Mega-Hero entry, but I'd expect to see it in the Minor Hero one; I know they can write restrictions like that in such a place, they've proven perfectly capable of doing so various times; they just didn't bother here.

And, again, I see where they explicitly okay being a Minor Hero Immortal who gets the various powers and the perks of being a Mega-Hero: 100% by the book, no Rifter or Blackvault stuff.

[say652]

Today, I shall attempt to munchkin up a Minor Hero.
Using the minor hero power category.so no sdc bonus. Attributes limited to 30. But reducing attacks, um that's dumb. Not reducing powers, again dumb.

So Begins, The Munchkin Minor Hero Build. Muahahahaha.

I want to do a minor hero that dosn't have the limitations of a minor hero? That seems Strange. if you want to munchkin a minor hero, don't houserule it at all. No rifter or blackvault powers or anything that isn't in the HU book or Powers Unlimited 1, 2, and 3. Make it 100% offical by the book. that's the true munchkin way

First Blackvault has better powers and skills.
Second I kept the power category suggested and required restrictions.
Three I planned on using the character.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Today, I shall attempt to munchkin up a Minor Hero.
Using the minor hero power category.so no sdc bonus. Attributes limited to 30. But reducing attacks, um that's dumb. Not reducing powers, again dumb.

So Begins, The Munchkin Minor Hero Build. Muahahahaha.

I want to do a minor hero that dosn't have the limitations of a minor hero? That seems Strange. if you want to munchkin a minor hero, don't houserule it at all. No rifter or blackvault powers or anything that isn't in the HU book or Powers Unlimited 1, 2, and 3. Make it 100% offical by the book. that's the true munchkin way

First Blackvault has better powers and skills.
Second I kept the power category suggested and required restrictions.
Three I planned on using the character.

First: that's exactly why I say it shouldn't be used--because it's not really munchkining the rules if you are allowed to make up overpowered powers and use those.
Second: Only using half the restrictions is still ignoring half the challange.
Third: Okay. Why not just play a cannonical minor hero then?

I mean, your GM can allow whatever he wants, naturally, but as a munchakinism challange, if it's not offical, it dosn't count.