minion wars

[Baronminuit]

what is the minion wars

[Lord_Dalgard]

To be brief, the Overlords of Dyval and Hades start a conflicts(essentially devils vs. demons) that spills over into the Palladium Megaverse.

[Sir_Spirit]

Vaguely analogous to the d&d Bloodwar while being its own thing.

[say652]

So you could just use the chaos earth books as add ons, Psyscape, Phaseworld, for a level 2 add on for Heroes Unlimited.
Hu and Mdc,

[Sir_Spirit]

Actually there is an Armegeddon Unlimited book for it that's is also an HU suppliment.

[NMI]

It's like the Elf / Dwarf wars but with Demons and Deevils

[eliakon]

Since this is the HU forum I will use the comic book analogy.

Its the big summer cross over event extravaganza that involves all the titles in the franchise. The big kind that finishes by having some continuity reboots and maybe killing off a minor hero or two.

[Nekira Sudacne]

what is the minion wars

Metaplot war line that crosses over Palladium Fantasy, Heroes Unlimited, Phase World, and Rifts as demon armies from Hades and Dyval fight to wrest control of several major worlds.

[SittingBull]

Its a very Biblical Apocalypse feel if you were just doing Heroes Unlimited with the Minion Wars.

[Razorwing]

I was contemplating doing a game in the aftermath of the Armageddon Event, where the players are some of the last surviving supers trying to free their world... and probably have them finding a way to go back in time to prevent the activation of the Chaos Generators. One interesting twist is that some of their allies in their "present" would be their adversaries in the "past".

Sort of the Heroes Unlimited version of "Days of Future Past" meets "Age of Apocalypse".

[SittingBull]

Sounds like a good idea. Imagine the heroes of the current "future" having to fight like criminals or terrorists almost; oh the role-playing potential concerning alignments.

[Razorwing]

While the potential for alignment conflicts is there, the whole "survival" and "demonic invasion" themes are likely to take a higher place in the long run. Of course, given the world wide scope of such a setting (the entire world is undergoing a transformation while being invaded)... it can be a little daunting to know where to begin and what places to flesh out.

I think the main plot of the "future" portion of the setting would be discovering where the various Chaos Generators were placed... and where they were controlled from. This give the players two options for when they go into the "past" to stop Armageddon... take out enough generators to prevent the catastrophe or take out the main base that begins it. Both have pros and cons as a plan... the main base is likely to be the most heavily guarded area, but with a high chance of successfully stopping the event. Meanwhile taking out the Generators themselves might be easier (not nearly as many guards, but still enough opposition to be challenging), but taking out enough of the Generators (which are spread across the globe) might be nearly impossible.

Another wrinkle with them operating in the "past" is the fact that almost no one there realizes what is about to happen... other than those who are planning on making it happen. This means that trying to take out the Generators or attacking those responsible are likely to mark the players as dangerous criminals to the heroes of that time. How does one "prove" that the world (as we know it) is about to end and that you have come back in time to prevent that future... without sounding like a nutcase?

So many wonderful opportunities to mess with my players and their characters... and so little time (relatively speaking) for them to save the world.

[SittingBull]

I would be avoiding the time travel part but that's me. Still sounds like a good story line.

[The Beast]

I would be avoiding the time travel part but that's me. Still sounds like a good story line.

The Doctor would be disappointed in your choice.

[SittingBull]

As much as I love Doctor Who, I have to ignore the time loop problems of the show.

[Razorwing]

The whole premise of doing sort of a "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse" type game with a world transformed by the Armageddon Event... well... is to travel into the past to prevent it. They will see and experience the world as the Deevils would recreate it and, given the scope of the transformation, know that there is nothing they can do to save their world from its current present... but going back before the event, they might create a better future.

If you can explain how such a campaign can be done without time travel... well... I'm all ears.

[Glistam]

The whole premise of doing sort of a "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse" type game with a world transformed by the Armageddon Event... well... is to travel into the past to prevent it. They will see and experience the world as the Deevils would recreate it and, given the scope of the transformation, know that there is nothing they can do to save their world from its current present... but going back before the event, they might create a better future.

If you can explain how such a campaign can be done without time travel... well... I'm all ears.

You focus your campaign on the present day, trying to obtain what is needed to DO the time travel (similar to the Age of Apocalypse). But the campaign is successful/over once everything is gathered and the time travel is able to successfully occur. The traveler's actions aren't the focus, it's the set-up to allow the allow the traveler to go back.

I personally think the campaign you've set up sounds fun, but that's how you could do such a game without doing the time travel.

[Razorwing]

The whole premise of doing sort of a "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse" type game with a world transformed by the Armageddon Event... well... is to travel into the past to prevent it. They will see and experience the world as the Deevils would recreate it and, given the scope of the transformation, know that there is nothing they can do to save their world from its current present... but going back before the event, they might create a better future.

If you can explain how such a campaign can be done without time travel... well... I'm all ears.

You focus your campaign on the present day, trying to obtain what is needed to DO the time travel (similar to the Age of Apocalypse). But the campaign is successful/over once everything is gathered and the time travel is able to successfully occur. The traveler's actions aren't the focus, it's the set-up to allow the allow the traveler to go back.

I personally think the campaign you've set up sounds fun, but that's how you could do such a game without doing the time travel.

The problem with that is that you only end up doing half the job... you send a team back in time... but there is no guarantee that they succeed in preventing the Armageddon Event. Given the opposition the players will be up against in both time frames... well... just guaranteeing a successful mission seems unsatisfying.

Look at how hard it is in most movies involving time travel to actually change established events. In most cases, time itself tries to force things back to the way it happened. The Time Machine is a perfect example... where the main character tries again and again to save the life of the woman he loved... only to watch her die each and every time (in many different ways). It takes a monumental effort to alter the past enough to change the future... the more drastic the change desired, the more monumental the effort needed to alter it.

Again... look at what the various heroes had to do to change the course of history to prevent "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse"... both in those timelines and in the main timeline too. Just gathering the information needed to alter the past and the means to get there was rarely enough... there was often a lot of effort needed in the main timeline to shift the future away from what was going to be towards something better. If these plot points weren't resolved in such a way to show that the future has shifted away from what had been shown, no one would have believed that the timelines had shifted back to what we know them to be.

[SittingBull]

The whole premise of doing sort of a "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse" type game with a world transformed by the Armageddon Event... well... is to travel into the past to prevent it. They will see and experience the world as the Deevils would recreate it and, given the scope of the transformation, know that there is nothing they can do to save their world from its current present... but going back before the event, they might create a better future.

If you can explain how such a campaign can be done without time travel... well... I'm all ears.

You focus your campaign on the present day, trying to obtain what is needed to DO the time travel (similar to the Age of Apocalypse). But the campaign is successful/over once everything is gathered and the time travel is able to successfully occur. The traveler's actions aren't the focus, it's the set-up to allow the allow the traveler to go back.

I personally think the campaign you've set up sounds fun, but that's how you could do such a game without doing the time travel.

The problem with that is that you only end up doing half the job... you send a team back in time... but there is no guarantee that they succeed in preventing the Armageddon Event. Given the opposition the players will be up against in both time frames... well... just guaranteeing a successful mission seems unsatisfying.

Look at how hard it is in most movies involving time travel to actually change established events. In most cases, time itself tries to force things back to the way it happened. The Time Machine is a perfect example... where the main character tries again and again to save the life of the woman he loved... only to watch her die each and every time (in many different ways). It takes a monumental effort to alter the past enough to change the future... the more drastic the change desired, the more monumental the effort needed to alter it.

Again... look at what the various heroes had to do to change the course of history to prevent "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse"... both in those timelines and in the main timeline too. Just gathering the information needed to alter the past and the means to get there was rarely enough... there was often a lot of effort needed in the main timeline to shift the future away from what was going to be towards something better. If these plot points weren't resolved in such a way to show that the future has shifted away from what had been shown, no one would have believed that the timelines had shifted back to what we know them to be.

Could always do that game with a REALLY dark kind of twilight zone ending. The heroes succeed and return to the future, only to find nothing changed... for their timeline. For the timeline that branched off from them succeeding life is grand.

[Glistam]

The whole premise of doing sort of a "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse" type game with a world transformed by the Armageddon Event... well... is to travel into the past to prevent it. They will see and experience the world as the Deevils would recreate it and, given the scope of the transformation, know that there is nothing they can do to save their world from its current present... but going back before the event, they might create a better future.

If you can explain how such a campaign can be done without time travel... well... I'm all ears.

You focus your campaign on the present day, trying to obtain what is needed to DO the time travel (similar to the Age of Apocalypse). But the campaign is successful/over once everything is gathered and the time travel is able to successfully occur. The traveler's actions aren't the focus, it's the set-up to allow the allow the traveler to go back.

I personally think the campaign you've set up sounds fun, but that's how you could do such a game without doing the time travel.

The problem with that is that you only end up doing half the job... you send a team back in time... but there is no guarantee that they succeed in preventing the Armageddon Event. Given the opposition the players will be up against in both time frames... well... just guaranteeing a successful mission seems unsatisfying.

Look at how hard it is in most movies involving time travel to actually change established events. In most cases, time itself tries to force things back to the way it happened. The Time Machine is a perfect example... where the main character tries again and again to save the life of the woman he loved... only to watch her die each and every time (in many different ways). It takes a monumental effort to alter the past enough to change the future... the more drastic the change desired, the more monumental the effort needed to alter it.

Again... look at what the various heroes had to do to change the course of history to prevent "Days of Future Past" and "Age of Apocalypse"... both in those timelines and in the main timeline too. Just gathering the information needed to alter the past and the means to get there was rarely enough... there was often a lot of effort needed in the main timeline to shift the future away from what was going to be towards something better. If these plot points weren't resolved in such a way to show that the future has shifted away from what had been shown, no one would have believed that the timelines had shifted back to what we know them to be.

Yet this was the entire premise of the Age of Apocalypse's overarching story. Once the time travel happened it was what, just a page at most devoted to what was done in the past to "fix" things?

[Daniel Stoker]

Well that had the advantage of having one easy event to 'fix' that it all split off of while something like this could have dozens depending on how you wanted to run the story.


Daniel Stoker

[Razorwing]

The point is... all that the build up in the "Hell on Earth" portion of the proposed game is to give the players a chance to save their world. There is no guarantee that this crazy plan is going to work... but given the dire situation they are in... it may be their world's only chance.

Resolving it without the players actually doing anything other than going back in time feels empty. The worked hard to get the information they needed. They fought insurmountable odds to get the items they needed. They sacrificed so much for the chance to change the world... to then take that away from them and say... yep... you did it without them actually doing it... well... it kind of cheapens everything they went through up to that point.

Would you, as a player, feel satisfied with going through an entire dungeon to face off against the mastermind of an insidious plot... only to be told by your GM the moment your character reaches the final chamber that they won the final fight with an epic battle that will be told for generations to come... yet not actually get to play out that battle?

And as Daniel has pointed out... there is no easy event to prevent the Armageddon plot from coming to fruition. Giving the players a satisfying resolution to the campaign is essential... and ending it with them going into the past isn't a satisfying resolution.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The point is... all that the build up in the "Hell on Earth" portion of the proposed game is to give the players a chance to save their world. There is no guarantee that this crazy plan is going to work... but given the dire situation they are in... it may be their world's only chance.

Resolving it without the players actually doing anything other than going back in time feels empty. The worked hard to get the information they needed. They fought insurmountable odds to get the items they needed. They sacrificed so much for the chance to change the world... to then take that away from them and say... yep... you did it without them actually doing it... well... it kind of cheapens everything they went through up to that point.

Would you, as a player, feel satisfied with going through an entire dungeon to face off against the mastermind of an insidious plot... only to be told by your GM the moment your character reaches the final chamber that they won the final fight with an epic battle that will be told for generations to come... yet not actually get to play out that battle?

And as Daniel has pointed out... there is no easy event to prevent the Armageddon plot from coming to fruition. Giving the players a satisfying resolution to the campaign is essential... and ending it with them going into the past isn't a satisfying resolution.

The Plot is fairly open ended with each booking having multiple "options" ranging from "And the demons win" to "And the demons are pushed back without too much being changed in the long term". AKA, it's entirely possible for the party to win before the land becomes devistated. the legions of hell might respawn, but they are not infinite, they can be defeated before laying waste to the land.

[Razorwing]

The Plot is fairly open ended with each booking having multiple "options" ranging from "And the demons win" to "And the demons are pushed back without too much being changed in the long term". AKA, it's entirely possible for the party to win before the land becomes devistated. the legions of hell might respawn, but they are not infinite, they can be defeated before laying waste to the land.

While you do make a very good point... I'd like to point out that the discussion Glistam and I were having had to deal with running a campaign where the players start out in a HU Earth that was devastated by the Armageddon plot. He was trying to point out that actually using time travel to save that world wasn't needed... that it could be ended just as the players open the portal back in time and go through... without actually altering any of the events that lead to that particular world becoming "Hell on Earth". My point was just that... ending the game before any of the past events were altered means that the main point of the campaign isn't resolved... namely changing the fate of their world (Armageddon Earth for lack of a better name).

There are just too many variables that could lead to the Armageddon Event (as presented in Armageddon Unlimited) that wrapping up the game before any of those threads are tied up wouldn't be a satisfying ending for either the GM running it... or the players playing it. It would be like ending the movie "X-Men: Days of Future Past" the moment they send Wolverine's mind into the past. Who really needs to see the actual events changed to create a better future after all, right? All that is really needed to change the past is a means to travel into the past and knowing when to go... so what need is there to actually change things?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yea, Time Travel is not required for victory, a sufficently powerful and/or clever group could drive them off.

Or you know, they could just find a Time Lord from Transdimensional teenage mutant ninja turtles and get them to cast a spell that prevents ALL forms of teleportation and dimensional travel and time travel on an entire planet. that'd do the trick too.

[Tor]

As much as I love Doctor Who, I have to ignore the time loop problems of the show.

I just figure the Time Lords from TMNT swoop in and use magic to solve any causality problems by eliminating the compromised portion of time from affecting the rest of the continuity.

Dr. Who has crossed with Trek TNG, Trek TNG has crossed with X-Men, X-Men have crossed with Punisher, Punisher has crossed with Archie Andrews, Archie has crossed with TMNT. So it's all one multiverse.

Archie has also met with Glee and Sharknado. Archie's also met with Sabrina the Teenage Witch, who has crossed with Sonic the Hedgehog, who has crossed with Spawn, who has crossed with Savage Dragon and Witchblade.

I havent' yet figured out how to make a canonical link between Macross and TMNT but if I get there, it will be epic.

[Razorwing]

Yea, Time Travel is not required for victory, a sufficently powerful and/or clever group could drive them off.

Or you know, they could just find a Time Lord from Transdimensional teenage mutant ninja turtles and get them to cast a spell that prevents ALL forms of teleportation and dimensional travel and time travel on an entire planet. that'd do the trick too.

You do realize just how difficult that it would be to drive the Deevils from Earth after the Armageddon Event? We are talking about a world transformed by catastrophe into something along the style of Rifts Earth... with hundreds to thousands of Rifts... all connected to Dyval... with hundreds of thousands... if not millions of Deevils pouring through each Rift. Cataclysmic changes equivalent to what is happening on Chaos Earth (Rift Earth's past) are transforming the world... and killing the vast majority of humanity (with Supers taking the greatest casualties... either through deliberate targeting... or by being overwhelmed by the disasters that are transforming the world). We are talking about a global event... not something affecting one nation or continent (where a coordinated effort could make a difference), but happening everywhere at the same time. The Deevils' own estimates would put the number of human casualties between 80 to 90%... if not higher reducing a planet of 7 billion people down to under a billion world wide. This is the beauty of their plan, for it destroys any chance of a unified and coordinated resistance to their invasion.

So... again... do you really think that a small group (no matter how powerful) could actually free an entire world dominated by the Deevils in such a manner? Liberating a city might be possible... maybe even a small nation... at least until they become enough of a nuisance to warrant an entire army of hundreds of thousands of Deevils to wipe them off the face of the Earth. We are talking about overwhelming force and unlimited resources for the opponents such a group would face... not to mention the fact that these beings are immortal... even killing them won't stop them because they will just be reborn on Dyval... which is connected to Earth by thousands of portals... giving the Deevils unlimited manpower. Before the Armageddon event... Deevils (especially lesser Deevils) would generally be found in small packs of 5 to 10 members... making such a group an almost equal match for most groups of heroes. After the Armageddon Event we are talking about the heroes facing much greater odds... 100s or 1000s of Deevils for every hero left... if not more (10,000 or even 100,000 to 1 wouldn't be unreasonable odds).

Given such a dire situation... the best option for defeating the Deevils is to prevent the Armageddon Event from happening (something that can't be done in a world transformed into Hell on Earth by that very event).

As for the idea of finding a Time Lord from TDTMNT... well... that isn't going to happen (besides the fact that Palladium is no longer licensed to publish TMNT books [After the Bomb is their own setting], the information on Time Lords is woefully out of date compared to the rest of the Palladium Megaverse... and they are concerned about a different Earth in a different dimension... which is not the HU dimension). Besides... they don't have a spell that can do everything you suggest (the closest is Temporal Barrier which only prevents time travel... which could only last for 3 hours 45 minutes at a time). Given the severe limitations that Time Lords have on spellcasting (they are still limited to a total of 18 spells per day at 15th level)... the chances of one surviving for long on an Earth dominated by Deevils is very slim.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yea, Time Travel is not required for victory, a sufficently powerful and/or clever group could drive them off.

Or you know, they could just find a Time Lord from Transdimensional teenage mutant ninja turtles and get them to cast a spell that prevents ALL forms of teleportation and dimensional travel and time travel on an entire planet. that'd do the trick too.

You do realize just how difficult that it would be to drive the Deevils from Earth after the Armageddon Event? We are talking about a world transformed by catastrophe into something along the style of Rifts Earth... with hundreds to thousands of Rifts... all connected to Dyval... with hundreds of thousands... if not millions of Deevils pouring through each Rift. Cataclysmic changes equivalent to what is happening on Chaos Earth (Rift Earth's past) are transforming the world... and killing the vast majority of humanity (with Supers taking the greatest casualties... either through deliberate targeting... or by being overwhelmed by the disasters that are transforming the world). We are talking about a global event... not something affecting one nation or continent (where a coordinated effort could make a difference), but happening everywhere at the same time. The Deevils' own estimates would put the number of human casualties between 80 to 90%... if not higher reducing a planet of 7 billion people down to under a billion world wide. This is the beauty of their plan, for it destroys any chance of a unified and coordinated resistance to their invasion.p

So teleport up to the rifts, close them/destroy them, then do it again to cut off reinforcements. for a powerful group of mega heroes it would not be that difficult. a simple anti-magic cloud would automatically shut them down, starting level godling wizards could pull that off.

Get multiple groups. you are acting like the dyvals are the only ones capable of arranging an organized response.

Nothing says that the armageddon event will coincide with a rifts-level ley line explosion of magic, so that's not really a compariable thing.

and I don't think the casulities will be anywhere near what you say. Modern tanks and jet fighters can do a pretty number on them without too much trouble.

So... again... do you really think that a small group (no matter how powerful) could actually free an entire world dominated by the Deevils in such a manner?

Sure. It'd take a while, but it's not like they'd be going it alone.

Liberating a city might be possible... maybe even a small nation... at least until they become enough of a nuisance to warrant an entire army of hundreds of thousands of Deevils to wipe them off the face of the Earth. We are talking about overwhelming force and unlimited resources for the opponents such a group would face... not to mention the fact that these beings are immortal... even killing them won't stop them because they will just be reborn on Dyval... which is connected to Earth by thousands of portals... giving the Deevils unlimited manpower. Before the Armageddon event... Deevils (especially lesser Deevils) would generally be found in small packs of 5 to 10 members... making such a group an almost equal match for most groups of heroes. After the Armageddon Event we are talking about the heroes facing much greater odds... 100s or 1000s of Deevils for every hero left... if not more (10,000 or even 100,000 to 1 wouldn't be unreasonable odds).

Uhh...you do realize the dyval rebirth process takes DECADES, right? Sure, those you kill will be back...well after the war is over one way or another. They won't be reviving until well after the war is settled, so each one you kill won't be back in time to make any kind of difference. And once you kill enough you can get close enough to shut down the rifts. presuming you didn't just teleport-bomb them to shut them down within the first 48 hours, which would not be very hard to do. they are kind of gigantic and show up on sattalight imagry very easially. Given that there are still thousands of nukes in this world, the dyvals may very well have the portals nuked before the invasion ever gets underway.

You are seriously over-stating the resources available to Dyval and seriously underestimating the resources available to superheroes and militaries. The dyval invasion is bad, VERY bad. not unbeatable though.

As for the idea of finding a Time Lord from TDTMNT... well... that isn't going to happen (besides the fact that Palladium is no longer licensed to publish TMNT books [After the Bomb is their own setting], the information on Time Lords is woefully out of date compared to the rest of the Palladium Megaverse... and they are concerned about a different Earth in a different dimension... which is not the HU dimension). Besides... they don't have a spell that can do everything you suggest (the closest is Temporal Barrier which only prevents time travel... which could only last for 3 hours 45 minutes at a time). Given the severe limitations that Time Lords have on spellcasting (they are still limited to a total of 18 spells per day at 15th level)... the chances of one surviving for long on an Earth dominated by Deevils is very slim.

It was a facetious joke

[Razorwing]

So teleport up to the rifts, close them/destroy them, then do it again to cut off reinforcements. for a powerful group of mega heroes it would not be that difficult. a simple anti-magic cloud would automatically shut them down, starting level godling wizards could pull that off.

Get multiple groups. you are acting like the dyvals are the only ones capable of arranging an organized response.

Nothing says that the armageddon event will coincide with a rifts-level ley line explosion of magic, so that's not really a compariable thing.

and I don't think the casulities will be anywhere near what you say. Modern tanks and jet fighters can do a pretty number on them without too much trouble.

Sure. It'd take a while, but it's not like they'd be going it alone.

Uhh...you do realize the dyval rebirth process takes DECADES, right? Sure, those you kill will be back...well after the war is over one way or another. They won't be reviving until well after the war is settled, so each one you kill won't be back in time to make any kind of difference. And once you kill enough you can get close enough to shut down the rifts. presuming you didn't just teleport-bomb them to shut them down within the first 48 hours, which would not be very hard to do. they are kind of gigantic and show up on sattalight imagry very easially. Given that there are still thousands of nukes in this world, the dyvals may very well have the portals nuked before the invasion ever gets underway.

You are seriously, seriously over-stating the resources available to Dyval and seriously underestimating the resources available to superheroes and militaries. The dyval invasion is bad, not unbeatable though.

You have read what the Armageddon Plot intends to do, yes? It intends to recreate the Cataclysmic event that created Rifts Earth. It intends to do this through the deliberate deaths of billions of people simultaneously around the world in a manner that the Deevils hope to control with the Chaos Generators by opening portals to Dyval... rather than random dimensions like what happened on Rifts Earth. While they originally intended to wait until December 21st, 2098 (that date sounds familiar, doesn't it?) they have been forced to speed up their time table by the onset of the Minion War... to June 21st.

If successful, it would create a Rifts Earth level cataclysmic event that would devastate the planet. Look at what has happened in Chaos Earth for how such an event plays out. Within minutes of the initial event... the entire world begins to experience the effects of the devastation. Within the span of the first hour... the most populated cities in the world (practically any city on any coast) are gone... wiped out by massive tidal waves and/or earth quakes and volcanic eruptions triggered by the event. Every man, woman and child... including supers... gone! That's roughly a billion people or more world wide... gone... in addition to those who were killed in the first minutes to trigger such an event. Within just a few days... half the world's population is dead from just the natural disasters... and the Deevils have yet to lift a finger (besides triggering the event in the first place).

The Deevils are quite intelligent... and have been planning for this for years... if not decades. They have places hundreds of Chaos Generators at key locations around the world... all at major Nexus points like St. Louis, Calgary, Detroit-Windsor, the Ohio Valley, the Bermuda Triangle (or at least as close as they can get) and other such locations around the world. The Generators are designed to leach off some of the PPE abundant in these areas to open portals to Dyval when the event begins... opening rifts to a specific dimension rather than letting them open to random locations. The fact that the Deevils have been planning this means that when the event happens... they will be ready to take advantage of the resulting chaos... something that those who would defend the Earth will be unable to do (they will have little idea of exactly what is happening, let alone know how to respond or even be able to respond to the destruction of human civilization).

One also has to remember, that the level of technology available to humans of Heroes Unlimited is not equal to that possessed by NEMA of Chaos Earth (there was no Golden Age of Science yet... at best it was just beginning). This again puts the advantage squarely in the hands of the Deevils who don't have to worry as much about human technology giving the survivors enough of an edge to fight the invasion beside the few surviving Supers (remember... most supers make big cities like New York or Los Angeles their home... places that would be virtually wiped out in the first hours of the event). Military response would be slow as they have little to no idea what is happening... and are likely to suffer from mass desertion as soldiers leave to desperately find loved ones lost in the chaos. Many are likely to begin rescue efforts to find survivors... and as such are probably going to be unprepared for an invasion by supernatural beings from another dimension.

This is when the Deevils are likely to begin their invasion in earnest. The initial days would likely be chaotic enough that the natural disasters would be deemed too dangerous even for them... though a few groups are likely to take advantage in areas minimally affected by the event to sow destruction and chaos... but within a weeks time, the levels of magical energy will have risen to the point where such creatures would be immensely powerful (MDC rather than mere SDC), and thus the invasion could truly begin. Their first targets would be to secure the areas where the Chaos Generators are still functioning (even though they were designed to channel much of the energy of the Rifts into portals to Dyval... some are likely to have been destroyed in the chaos)... securing portals to Dyval for their troops to enter this world from. With those locations around the world secured (hundreds if not thousands of locations), they would march fourth to devastate areas that may still hold some resistance... especially areas that have yet to feel the full brunt of the cataclysm. What few defenders are left will be facing armies of demonic beings... not tens or even hundreds... but thousands of such monsters... each more powerful than they would normally be due to the increased levels of magic around the world.

Any resistance by what remains of humanity would be ill equipped to handle the demonic invasion. Most people (including Supers) refuse to believe in the supernatural. Only the few magic oriented Supers will have an idea of what to expect... and even then they will be unprepared for what is to come. As mentioned above... the Deevils will be a lot stronger than they were before the event... the increased magical energy released by the deaths of billions world wide will make even the weakest Deevil the equivalent to a tank... in both strength and durability. Each Deevil will be at least a minor MDC creature by this point... and since most militaries within the HU timeline do not have MD capable weapons (some might be able to do minor levels of MD, but most will not), most will be slaughtered quite easily. Only the few surviving Supers will likely be able to go toe to toe with the invading Deevils... but even here they will be sorely over matched. True, the power levels of many Supers may also be increased by the magical energies (especially the Magic oriented ones)... but it is really a matter of numbers now... the Supers are so few and the Deevils are so many that it is a fight that just can't be won in a head to head fight.

As for taking down the Rifts one at a time... that plan just wouldn't work. The moment you leave one nexus to take on the next... the Deevils are likely to swoop in and just reopen a rift back to Dyval. It really is a matter of manpower... you need to be able to not only take a nexus point, but also hold on to it after it is closed... to prevent the enemy from retaking the area and reopening the nexus as a gateway to Dyval. Coordinating the hundreds (if not thousands) of strike teams needed to do this would be impossible... as world wide communications would have fallen by the time such a resistance could be organized. There would be no functioning internet... most hard line communications would have been destroyed and satellite communication would be virtually impossible (constant interference from ash clouds and storms... not to mention the rejuvenated ley lines).

One also has to remember... the Deevils will not be alone in this. They have also been building up an army of their own Supers... cast off mutants and experiments that no one wanted. Many of these individuals have been given powers and abilities by the Deevils. Given the preparations the Deevils were making before the Armageddon event happens... it is very likely they would know where to place these beings so that most will survive the cataclysm and be a virtual army of supers under the control of the invading Deevils. True... many will likely to have been sacrificed to ensure that the event happens... something a large number would likely be willing to do... but many more would also be likely to survive. Most would also have a very big grudge against humanity... explaining why they would willingly see the human race burn in hellfire.

Yes... I am painting a very bleak outcome from the Armageddon Event... because that is the worst things could get. Dyval has enough resources to fight the Minion War on multiple fronts across the Megaverse... do you really think securing a single world devastated by a cataclysmic event that connects it directly to Dyval would put any kind of strain on their resources or manpower? Hardly, especially when most of the population of that planet is killed without lifting a finger and many of the survivors are willing servants of the invading force.

I may be over estimating just how bad things will be... but then you are underestimating how difficult things will be after the Armageddon Event. There is a very good reason that no single power has managed to secure all of Rifts Earth... to many competing forces are invested in the status quo to allow it... and that only happened because no single power was able to control the initial event. The Deevils are planning the Armageddon Event very carefully so that they have the best chances of securing the planet quickly once the majority of humanity had fallen and the defenders are at their weakest... and before any other power discovers what has happened here. While the final outcome may not be quite on the level of Rifts Earth... it will be damn close to it in all likelihood... and under the control of Dyval.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So teleport up to the rifts, close them/destroy them, then do it again to cut off reinforcements. for a powerful group of mega heroes it would not be that difficult. a simple anti-magic cloud would automatically shut them down, starting level godling wizards could pull that off.

Get multiple groups. you are acting like the dyvals are the only ones capable of arranging an organized response.

Nothing says that the armageddon event will coincide with a rifts-level ley line explosion of magic, so that's not really a compariable thing.

and I don't think the casulities will be anywhere near what you say. Modern tanks and jet fighters can do a pretty number on them without too much trouble.

Sure. It'd take a while, but it's not like they'd be going it alone.

Uhh...you do realize the dyval rebirth process takes DECADES, right? Sure, those you kill will be back...well after the war is over one way or another. They won't be reviving until well after the war is settled, so each one you kill won't be back in time to make any kind of difference. And once you kill enough you can get close enough to shut down the rifts. presuming you didn't just teleport-bomb them to shut them down within the first 48 hours, which would not be very hard to do. they are kind of gigantic and show up on sattalight imagry very easially. Given that there are still thousands of nukes in this world, the dyvals may very well have the portals nuked before the invasion ever gets underway.

You are seriously, seriously over-stating the resources available to Dyval and seriously underestimating the resources available to superheroes and militaries. The dyval invasion is bad, not unbeatable though.

You have read what the Armageddon Plot intends to do, yes? It intends to recreate the Cataclysmic event that created Rifts Earth. It intends to do this through the deliberate deaths of billions of people simultaneously around the world in a manner that the Deevils hope to control with the Chaos Generators by opening portals to Dyval... rather than random dimensions like what happened on Rifts Earth. While they originally intended to wait until December 21st, 2098 (that date sounds familiar, doesn't it?) they have been forced to speed up their time table by the onset of the Minion War... to June 21st.

If successful, it would create a Rifts Earth level cataclysmic event that would devastate the planet. Look at what has happened in Chaos Earth for how such an event plays out. Within minutes of the initial event... the entire world begins to experience the effects of the devastation. Within the span of the first hour... the most populated cities in the world (practically any city on any coast) are gone... wiped out by massive tidal waves and/or earth quakes and volcanic eruptions triggered by the event. Every man, woman and child... including supers... gone! That's roughly a billion people or more world wide... gone... in addition to those who were killed in the first minutes to trigger such an event. Within just a few days... half the world's population is dead from just the natural disasters... and the Deevils have yet to lift a finger (besides triggering the event in the first place).

It's a pretty big IF successful, mind, because the plot is not terribly difficult to foil before that point. Starting a nuclear war at exactly the right time is pretty hard--heck, the heroes wouldn't have to stop it entirely. as long as they DELAY the event so it dosn't happen right at a peak minute on the solstace, then while millions would die, it would not cause a cascading chain reaction in the same way. and that's why I am skeptical. The entire plan, frankly, smacks highly of demonic arrogance, with a lot of failure points to exploit that can stop it cold, or at least sevely mitigate the outcome.

he Deevils are quite intelligent... and have been planning for this for years... if not decades. They have places hundreds of Chaos Generators at key locations around the world... all at major Nexus points like St. Louis, Calgary, Detroit-Windsor, the Ohio Valley, the Bermuda Triangle (or at least as close as they can get) and other such locations around the world.

Incorrect. it says a few dozen, not hundreds. a manageable number. Moreover, all are placed at the biggest nexuses in the world. a mystic study hero could figure out all the most likely places to find one with a few simple rolls--not like nexus points move after all.

Also, no, you do not have to hold the nexus points, all you have to do is blow up the chaos generator. it says plainly that building them is an incredibly expensive, time consuming endeavor, and even WITH decades they have less than 50. teleport in, drop an anti-magic cloud to shut down the rift and weaken the dyvals, plant some big bombs on the chaos generators, blow it up, rinse, repeat. some nuclear strikes on ones in remote areas will make the job faster and easier.

The Generators are designed to leach off some of the PPE abundant in these areas to open portals to Dyval when the event begins... opening rifts to a specific dimension rather than letting them open to random locations. The fact that the Deevils have been planning this means that when the event happens... they will be ready to take advantage of the resulting chaos... something that those who would defend the Earth will be unable to do (they will have little idea of exactly what is happening, let alone know how to respond or even be able to respond to the destruction of human civilization).

Sure, they have been planning this for decades. Demons plan for centuries. they still get foiled by heroes anyway.

One also has to remember, that the level of technology available to humans of Heroes Unlimited is not equal to that possessed by NEMA of Chaos Earth (there was no Golden Age of Science yet... at best it was just beginning). This again puts the advantage squarely in the hands of the Deevils who don't have to worry as much about human technology giving the survivors enough of an edge to fight the invasion beside the few surviving Supers (remember... most supers make big cities like New York or Los Angeles their home... places that would be virtually wiped out in the first hours of the event). Military response would be slow as they have little to no idea what is happening... and are likely to suffer from mass desertion as soldiers leave to desperately find loved ones lost in the chaos. Many are likely to begin rescue efforts to find survivors... and as such are probably going to be unprepared for an invasion by supernatural beings from another dimension.

Agreed, IF they do create HU as a clone of rifts earth, the lack of already existant mega damage technology would be a hinderance. I just find it highly unlikely the chaos generator plan will work for reasons stated above.

This is when the Deevils are likely to begin their invasion in earnest. The initial days would likely be chaotic enough that the natural disasters would be deemed too dangerous even for them... though a few groups are likely to take advantage in areas minimally affected by the event to sow destruction and chaos... but within a weeks time, the levels of magical energy will have risen to the point where such creatures would be immensely powerful (MDC rather than mere SDC), and thus the invasion could truly begin. Their first targets would be to secure the areas where the Chaos Generators are still functioning (even though they were designed to channel much of the energy of the Rifts into portals to Dyval... some are likely to have been destroyed in the chaos)... securing portals to Dyval for their troops to enter this world from. With those locations around the world secured (hundreds if not thousands of locations), they would march fourth to devastate areas that may still hold some resistance... especially areas that have yet to feel the full brunt of the cataclysm. What few defenders are left will be facing armies of demonic beings... not tens or even hundreds... but thousands of such monsters... each more powerful than they would normally be due to the increased levels of magic around the world.

Any resistance by what remains of humanity would be ill equipped to handle the demonic invasion. Most people (including Supers) refuse to believe in the supernatural. Only the few magic oriented Supers will have an idea of what to expect... and even then they will be unprepared for what is to come. As mentioned above... the Deevils will be a lot stronger than they were before the event... the increased magical energy released by the deaths of billions world wide will make even the weakest Deevil the equivalent to a tank... in both strength and durability. Each Deevil will be at least a minor MDC creature by this point... and since most militaries within the HU timeline do not have MD capable weapons (some might be able to do minor levels of MD, but most will not), most will be slaughtered quite easily. Only the few surviving Supers will likely be able to go toe to toe with the invading Deevils... but even here they will be sorely over matched. True, the power levels of many Supers may also be increased by the magical energies (especially the Magic oriented ones)... but it is really a matter of numbers now... the Supers are so few and the Deevils are so many that it is a fight that just can't be won in a head to head fight.

You are still looking at it like "Day 1 goes off without a hitch, and everyone is caught completely unprepared with their pants down". I find it more likely "The dyvals are arrogant, will have it mucked up, or even shut down beforehand, and the armageddon event never even takes place". I find that to be the more likely outcome--this plan is so complicated, with so many vunerable parts, run by a guy with such a huge ego it would not be hard for a party of PC's to stop it from even happening in the first place.

As for taking down the Rifts one at a time... that plan just wouldn't work. The moment you leave one nexus to take on the next... the Deevils are likely to swoop in and just reopen a rift back to Dyval. It really is a matter of manpower... you need to be able to not only take a nexus point, but also hold on to it after it is closed... to prevent the enemy from retaking the area and reopening the nexus as a gateway to Dyval. Coordinating the hundreds (if not thousands) of strike teams needed to do this would be impossible... as world wide communications would have fallen by the time such a resistance could be organized. There would be no functioning internet... most hard line communications would have been destroyed and satellite communication would be virtually impossible (constant interference from ash clouds and storms... not to mention the rejuvenated ley lines).

As I said earlier, explosives will make short work of the chaos generators, and sinse they are so difficult to replace keeping them under control won't be terribly difficult. No need to actually hold the land once you destroy the generators.

One also has to remember... the Deevils will not be alone in this. They have also been building up an army of their own Supers... cast off mutants and experiments that no one wanted. Many of these individuals have been given powers and abilities by the Deevils. Given the preparations the Deevils were making before the Armageddon event happens... it is very likely they would know where to place these beings so that most will survive the cataclysm and be a virtual army of supers under the control of the invading Deevils. True... many will likely to have been sacrificed to ensure that the event happens... something a large number would likely be willing to do... but many more would also be likely to survive. Most would also have a very big grudge against humanity... explaining why they would willingly see the human race burn in hellfire.

Yes... I am painting a very bleak outcome from the Armageddon Event... because that is the worst things could get. Dyval has enough resources to fight the Minion War on multiple fronts across the Megaverse... do you really think securing a single world devastated by a cataclysmic event that connects it directly to Dyval would put any kind of strain on their resources or manpower? Hardly, especially when most of the population of that planet is killed without lifting a finger and many of the survivors are willing servants of the invading force.

I just find it a lot more likely they kick up a hornest nest of heroes, armies, and yes, extradimensional allies who don't want the dyvals to have a replica of rifts earth under their control who send in their own armies to help.

I may be over estimating just how bad things will be... but then you are underestimating how difficult things will be after the Armageddon Event. There is a very good reason that no single power has managed to secure all of Rifts Earth... to many competing forces are invested in the status quo to allow it... and that only happened because no single power was able to control the initial event. The Deevils are planning the Armageddon Event very carefully so that they have the best chances of securing the planet quickly once the majority of humanity had fallen and the defenders are at their weakest... and before any other power discovers what has happened here. While the final outcome may not be quite on the level of Rifts Earth... it will be damn close to it in all likelihood... and under the control of Dyval.

I think you are underestimating how difficult it will be to even pull off the armageddon event the way they want in the first place. You seem to be under the impression the dyvals have prepared for every contingency, have vast armies of completely loyal allies and endless resources. In fact, the books say the opposite. that they are arrogant, narrow minded, vicious beings who often underestimate and do NOT plan for what humans can do, because they think humans are beneath them, that dispite having vast resources, they have their fingers in so many pies the resources they can devote to any one world is limited, that these chaos generators are few in number and, while armored, are very vunerable to direct attacks by elite groups of heroes, and you completely dismiss what heroes and villians interested in the dyvals not ruling everything can to do stop the armageddon event from ever taking place. all it really takes is for ONE of the suborned villians to decide they don't want dyvals ruling everything and telling the world about the dyval plot to begin the process of unraveling it. and that's likely even without any of the other ways heroes can stumble across the plot in time to warn people.

[SittingBull]

So teleport up to the rifts, close them/destroy them, then do it again to cut off reinforcements. for a powerful group of mega heroes it would not be that difficult. a simple anti-magic cloud would automatically shut them down, starting level godling wizards could pull that off.

Get multiple groups. you are acting like the dyvals are the only ones capable of arranging an organized response.

Nothing says that the armageddon event will coincide with a rifts-level ley line explosion of magic, so that's not really a compariable thing.

and I don't think the casulities will be anywhere near what you say. Modern tanks and jet fighters can do a pretty number on them without too much trouble.

Sure. It'd take a while, but it's not like they'd be going it alone.

Uhh...you do realize the dyval rebirth process takes DECADES, right? Sure, those you kill will be back...well after the war is over one way or another. They won't be reviving until well after the war is settled, so each one you kill won't be back in time to make any kind of difference. And once you kill enough you can get close enough to shut down the rifts. presuming you didn't just teleport-bomb them to shut them down within the first 48 hours, which would not be very hard to do. they are kind of gigantic and show up on sattalight imagry very easially. Given that there are still thousands of nukes in this world, the dyvals may very well have the portals nuked before the invasion ever gets underway.

You are seriously, seriously over-stating the resources available to Dyval and seriously underestimating the resources available to superheroes and militaries. The dyval invasion is bad, not unbeatable though.

You have read what the Armageddon Plot intends to do, yes? It intends to recreate the Cataclysmic event that created Rifts Earth. It intends to do this through the deliberate deaths of billions of people simultaneously around the world in a manner that the Deevils hope to control with the Chaos Generators by opening portals to Dyval... rather than random dimensions like what happened on Rifts Earth. While they originally intended to wait until December 21st, 2098 (that date sounds familiar, doesn't it?) they have been forced to speed up their time table by the onset of the Minion War... to June 21st.

If successful, it would create a Rifts Earth level cataclysmic event that would devastate the planet. Look at what has happened in Chaos Earth for how such an event plays out. Within minutes of the initial event... the entire world begins to experience the effects of the devastation. Within the span of the first hour... the most populated cities in the world (practically any city on any coast) are gone... wiped out by massive tidal waves and/or earth quakes and volcanic eruptions triggered by the event. Every man, woman and child... including supers... gone! That's roughly a billion people or more world wide... gone... in addition to those who were killed in the first minutes to trigger such an event. Within just a few days... half the world's population is dead from just the natural disasters... and the Deevils have yet to lift a finger (besides triggering the event in the first place).

It's a pretty big IF successful, mind, because the plot is not terribly difficult to foil before that point. Starting a nuclear war at exactly the right time is pretty hard--heck, the heroes wouldn't have to stop it entirely. as long as they DELAY the event so it dosn't happen right at a peak minute on the solstace, then while millions would die, it would not cause a cascading chain reaction in the same way. and that's why I am skeptical. The entire plan, frankly, smacks highly of demonic arrogance, with a lot of failure points to exploit that can stop it cold, or at least sevely mitigate the outcome.

he Deevils are quite intelligent... and have been planning for this for years... if not decades. They have places hundreds of Chaos Generators at key locations around the world... all at major Nexus points like St. Louis, Calgary, Detroit-Windsor, the Ohio Valley, the Bermuda Triangle (or at least as close as they can get) and other such locations around the world.

Incorrect. it says a few dozen, not hundreds. a manageable number. Moreover, all are placed at the biggest nexuses in the world. a mystic study hero could figure out all the most likely places to find one with a few simple rolls--not like nexus points move after all.

Also, no, you do not have to hold the nexus points, all you have to do is blow up the chaos generator. it says plainly that building them is an incredibly expensive, time consuming endeavor, and even WITH decades they have less than 50. teleport in, drop an anti-magic cloud to shut down the rift and weaken the dyvals, plant some big bombs on the chaos generators, blow it up, rinse, repeat. some nuclear strikes on ones in remote areas will make the job faster and easier.

The Generators are designed to leach off some of the PPE abundant in these areas to open portals to Dyval when the event begins... opening rifts to a specific dimension rather than letting them open to random locations. The fact that the Deevils have been planning this means that when the event happens... they will be ready to take advantage of the resulting chaos... something that those who would defend the Earth will be unable to do (they will have little idea of exactly what is happening, let alone know how to respond or even be able to respond to the destruction of human civilization).

Sure, they have been planning this for decades. Demons plan for centuries. they still get foiled by heroes anyway.

One also has to remember, that the level of technology available to humans of Heroes Unlimited is not equal to that possessed by NEMA of Chaos Earth (there was no Golden Age of Science yet... at best it was just beginning). This again puts the advantage squarely in the hands of the Deevils who don't have to worry as much about human technology giving the survivors enough of an edge to fight the invasion beside the few surviving Supers (remember... most supers make big cities like New York or Los Angeles their home... places that would be virtually wiped out in the first hours of the event). Military response would be slow as they have little to no idea what is happening... and are likely to suffer from mass desertion as soldiers leave to desperately find loved ones lost in the chaos. Many are likely to begin rescue efforts to find survivors... and as such are probably going to be unprepared for an invasion by supernatural beings from another dimension.

Agreed, IF they do create HU as a clone of rifts earth, the lack of already existant mega damage technology would be a hinderance. I just find it highly unlikely the chaos generator plan will work for reasons stated above.

This is when the Deevils are likely to begin their invasion in earnest. The initial days would likely be chaotic enough that the natural disasters would be deemed too dangerous even for them... though a few groups are likely to take advantage in areas minimally affected by the event to sow destruction and chaos... but within a weeks time, the levels of magical energy will have risen to the point where such creatures would be immensely powerful (MDC rather than mere SDC), and thus the invasion could truly begin. Their first targets would be to secure the areas where the Chaos Generators are still functioning (even though they were designed to channel much of the energy of the Rifts into portals to Dyval... some are likely to have been destroyed in the chaos)... securing portals to Dyval for their troops to enter this world from. With those locations around the world secured (hundreds if not thousands of locations), they would march fourth to devastate areas that may still hold some resistance... especially areas that have yet to feel the full brunt of the cataclysm. What few defenders are left will be facing armies of demonic beings... not tens or even hundreds... but thousands of such monsters... each more powerful than they would normally be due to the increased levels of magic around the world.

Any resistance by what remains of humanity would be ill equipped to handle the demonic invasion. Most people (including Supers) refuse to believe in the supernatural. Only the few magic oriented Supers will have an idea of what to expect... and even then they will be unprepared for what is to come. As mentioned above... the Deevils will be a lot stronger than they were before the event... the increased magical energy released by the deaths of billions world wide will make even the weakest Deevil the equivalent to a tank... in both strength and durability. Each Deevil will be at least a minor MDC creature by this point... and since most militaries within the HU timeline do not have MD capable weapons (some might be able to do minor levels of MD, but most will not), most will be slaughtered quite easily. Only the few surviving Supers will likely be able to go toe to toe with the invading Deevils... but even here they will be sorely over matched. True, the power levels of many Supers may also be increased by the magical energies (especially the Magic oriented ones)... but it is really a matter of numbers now... the Supers are so few and the Deevils are so many that it is a fight that just can't be won in a head to head fight.

You are still looking at it like "Day 1 goes off without a hitch, and everyone is caught completely unprepared with their pants down". I find it more likely "The dyvals are arrogant, will have it mucked up, or even shut down beforehand, and the armageddon event never even takes place". I find that to be the more likely outcome--this plan is so complicated, with so many vunerable parts, run by a guy with such a huge ego it would not be hard for a party of PC's to stop it from even happening in the first place.

As for taking down the Rifts one at a time... that plan just wouldn't work. The moment you leave one nexus to take on the next... the Deevils are likely to swoop in and just reopen a rift back to Dyval. It really is a matter of manpower... you need to be able to not only take a nexus point, but also hold on to it after it is closed... to prevent the enemy from retaking the area and reopening the nexus as a gateway to Dyval. Coordinating the hundreds (if not thousands) of strike teams needed to do this would be impossible... as world wide communications would have fallen by the time such a resistance could be organized. There would be no functioning internet... most hard line communications would have been destroyed and satellite communication would be virtually impossible (constant interference from ash clouds and storms... not to mention the rejuvenated ley lines).

As I said earlier, explosives will make short work of the chaos generators, and sinse they are so difficult to replace keeping them under control won't be terribly difficult. No need to actually hold the land once you destroy the generators.

One also has to remember... the Deevils will not be alone in this. They have also been building up an army of their own Supers... cast off mutants and experiments that no one wanted. Many of these individuals have been given powers and abilities by the Deevils. Given the preparations the Deevils were making before the Armageddon event happens... it is very likely they would know where to place these beings so that most will survive the cataclysm and be a virtual army of supers under the control of the invading Deevils. True... many will likely to have been sacrificed to ensure that the event happens... something a large number would likely be willing to do... but many more would also be likely to survive. Most would also have a very big grudge against humanity... explaining why they would willingly see the human race burn in hellfire.

Yes... I am painting a very bleak outcome from the Armageddon Event... because that is the worst things could get. Dyval has enough resources to fight the Minion War on multiple fronts across the Megaverse... do you really think securing a single world devastated by a cataclysmic event that connects it directly to Dyval would put any kind of strain on their resources or manpower? Hardly, especially when most of the population of that planet is killed without lifting a finger and many of the survivors are willing servants of the invading force.

I just find it a lot more likely they kick up a hornest nest of heroes, armies, and yes, extradimensional allies who don't want the dyvals to have a replica of rifts earth under their control who send in their own armies to help.

I may be over estimating just how bad things will be... but then you are underestimating how difficult things will be after the Armageddon Event. There is a very good reason that no single power has managed to secure all of Rifts Earth... to many competing forces are invested in the status quo to allow it... and that only happened because no single power was able to control the initial event. The Deevils are planning the Armageddon Event very carefully so that they have the best chances of securing the planet quickly once the majority of humanity had fallen and the defenders are at their weakest... and before any other power discovers what has happened here. While the final outcome may not be quite on the level of Rifts Earth... it will be damn close to it in all likelihood... and under the control of Dyval.

I think you are underestimating how difficult it will be to even pull off the armageddon event the way they want in the first place. You seem to be under the impression the dyvals have prepared for every contingency, have vast armies of completely loyal allies and endless resources. In fact, the books say the opposite. that they are arrogant, narrow minded, vicious beings who often underestimate and do NOT plan for what humans can do, because they think humans are beneath them, that dispite having vast resources, they have their fingers in so many pies the resources they can devote to any one world is limited, that these chaos generators are few in number and, while armored, are very vunerable to direct attacks by elite groups of heroes, and you completely dismiss what heroes and villians interested in the dyvals not ruling everything can to do stop the armageddon event from ever taking place. all it really takes is for ONE of the suborned villians to decide they don't want dyvals ruling everything and telling the world about the dyval plot to begin the process of unraveling it. and that's likely even without any of the other ways heroes can stumble across the plot in time to warn people.

Applauds. I just couldn't read that long a post. Props to you. (I need new glasses.)

[Razorwing]

Nekira...

What you said in your post more or less proved my point... the easiest way to derail the Armageddon Plot the Deevils are cooking up is to do so BEFORE it happens.

Once the Armageddon Event happens... things take a decisive turn against humanity... with the vast majority being killed in the resultant catastrophe. And it really doesn't take a Nuclear War to trigger it. The cataclysm that lead to the creation of Rifts Earth was started by a small nuclear exchange by two small countries... not all out Nuclear War. The initial death toll from that nuclear exchange was in the mere millions. This means that it shouldn't take much to trigger the Armageddon Event... if timed right. With the abilities of the Deevils and their human allies, getting the materials to make a few crude nuclear bombs (the kind that Security Agencies like the NSA and FBI are worried terrorists might get their hands on) would be fairly easy. Planting them in a few major cities that are located on prime Nexus Points would also be fairly easy for them (teleport in, drop the bomb, teleport out). Take out a dozen or so cities with populations in the millions (Mexico City would be perfect as it has a huge population... 21 million or so... and is located on a major Ley Line network) at a time of peak magical power (Noon on June 21st)... and the world would be forever changed. Do this simultaneously on each continent... and the chain reaction would be every bit as impressive and devastating as it was for Chaos Earth.

Yes, the Deevils are incredibly arrogant and think very little of what humans could do to stop them... which is why the Armageddon Event is a big risk... they don't expect anyone to find out about it until it is too late. However, one also has to look at the flip side of that coin too. Humanity is almost as arrogant in thinking it is the most intelligent beings on the planet. The vast majority are even convinced that the supernatural doesn't exist. Sure... you have some heroes wielding weapons they claim are magical in nature... or cast spells using an unidentifiable energy... but creatures from another dimension that are as malevolent as they are powerful... that is just silly. Even in a world filled with Super Beings, actual Supernatural monsters like Deevils will be dismissed as just another mutant, alien or "super-freak" with a demonic appearance... because actual Demons don't exist... or so humanity has deluded itself into believing. Very few individuals are actually aware that Deevils actually exist (and even then, most don't realize to what extent they have infiltrated modern society).

Regardless... as far as the campaign I proposed is concerned... the Armageddon Event happened... and it worked just as the Deevils expected it to. Millions died in the initial explosions that triggered a world wide cataclysm. Oceans rose and washed away the coast lines of every continent... killing millions more. Earthquakes were triggered and volcanoes erupted... killing even more people... and all the PPE from all those deaths was sucked up into the ley lines, tearing open Rifts between dimensions that the Chaos Generators used to connect Earth to Dyval. From these Rifts, hundreds of thousands of Deevils poured through to slaughter any hapless humans they found... feeding the power of the ley lines even more. By the end of the first day, over a billion people... including many of the Super Human champions that defended them, were dead. By the end of the first week, half the world's population was dead... and with them most of civilized society. By the end of that first month, nearly 3/4ths of the human population had been devastated and the Deevil Armies were in control of most of the planet. It is at this point that human are being rounded up rather than just killed... to become slaves of their new Deevil masters. Any remaining Supers that aren't allies with the Deevils are slaughtered when found... and those who have sided with the Deevils are rewarded as taskmasters of the human slaves (but are carefully watched to make sure they can be trusted). Most of humanity is forced into slave labor... to help create new war machines for the Deevils war efforts as the Minion War continues to rage across the Megaverse.

This the world in which the players in my campaign will begin... a world conquered and transformed by the Armageddon Event. How likely this was to happen doesn't matter... because it has happened... and now humanity is at the mercy of the Deevils. It is a bleak world where the players are vastly out numbered by the Deevils and their loyal Super Human minions... and humanity has been reduced in number to less than a billion world wide. While there are still remnants of the old world, it has been twisted and corrupted by the Deevils and their pawns into something hellish. There are rumors that a few surviving heroes have managed to form a resistance of sorts... but most dare not hope for such things. And thus... as the players discover their powers and try to fight back, they are drawn into a plot that might save their world from its current fate... by going into the past to prevent the Armageddon Event from ever happening.

[eliakon]

How to make the entire plot fail....
"Great Groceries Captain Colander! Why is the Saint Louis Arch Magical?"
"I don't know Bananna Boy, we must check this out."
*calls the Fruit Five*
*Investigates, runs into demons fights demons, finds the Chaos Generator hooked up to the Arch*
"What is that?"
"I am not sure, let us find out"
*Object Reads the Generator and learns its purpose*
"Its a device meant to destroy the world!"
*calling Sentinel's of Liberty and Justice* "Hello Flagg? Captain Colander here. We have a Case Zulu, repeat we have a Case Zulu"
...
One adventure by one group of heroes in one city and the entire thing falls apart.
Bonus points for the fact that as written you can use Telemechanics to trace the signal back to the island base so you know where to have the 82nd landing......

[Razorwing]

And how exactly did they deduce that the Arch was magical in the first place?

Magic is not common on HU Earth... even with all the Heroes flying around. Even many Magical Heroes don't fully understand the powers they wield or can sense similar powers being used. Mystic Study characters are the most likely to notice such an occurrence... and since the Arch is built over a Ley Line nexus... even then they are likely to assume that the Arch has just absorbed some of the ambient magical energy. The fact that there is new construction going on to the Arch itself (thanks to the Deevil worshipers protecting the Chaos Generators), a sudden increase in magical energy within the Arch is likely to be attributed to that as well.

Also remember that the Deevils and their worshipers at the site do apparently have legitimate reason to be there (the new construction to the Arch) and are quite manipulative... thus they should be able to easily explain their presence to any curious heroes (the Deevils are smart enough to disguise themselves as human in such an event).

While just happening across the Armageddon Plot is possible... it wouldn't happen quite as easily as you make it out to be.

[eliakon]

And how exactly did they deduce that the Arch was magical in the first place?

Magic is not common on HU Earth... even with all the Heroes flying around. Even many Magical Heroes don't fully understand the powers they wield or can sense similar powers being used. Mystic Study characters are the most likely to notice such an occurrence... and since the Arch is built over a Ley Line nexus... even then they are likely to assume that the Arch has just absorbed some of the ambient magical energy. The fact that there is new construction going on to the Arch itself (thanks to the Deevil worshipers protecting the Chaos Generators), a sudden increase in magical energy within the Arch is likely to be attributed to that as well.

Also remember that the Deevils and their worshipers at the site do apparently have legitimate reason to be there (the new construction to the Arch) and are quite manipulative... thus they should be able to easily explain their presence to any curious heroes (the Deevils are smart enough to disguise themselves as human in such an event).

While just happening across the Armageddon Plot is possible... it wouldn't happen quite as easily as you make it out to be.

see aura? any of a number of abilities that let you sense magic?
And I don't buy that an actual mage is going to be stupid enough to think that the arch has just suddenly sponantiously decided to absorb magic now.....and then say 'oh well lets just ignore the worlds largest known magic item'
If the Deevils plan requires everyone to hold idiom balls then its not much of a plan....

And if the heroes though have a mage or a psychic the gig is up....see aura is pretty nasty "hmmm, look at all these supernatural evil beings here. But hey they are in work clothes so I am sure its all just fine...."

And that's just one of the devices
The one in Mexico is causing phase shifts

And lets not even talk about Clairvoyance......

So yes this plan might work. Maybe. IF everything goes just their way, and IF all of the 'Doctors' theories are right, and if no one notices any of the (rather obvious) stuff going on.....this is not a plan, its an 'if' convention.

[SittingBull]

Clairvoyance, the power that a lot of GMs just never have go off on its own; like it can.

[Glistam]

People love to cite "See Aura" as such a great ability, but it's several I.S.P. or P.P.E. For only 15 seconds worth of that sight. No-one with the power can constantly afford to keep it active, so there needs to be some sort of "reason" to prompt the user to use it. Construction workers at the site of tbe Arch? Doesn't quite strike me as a "See Aura" situation, unless the character is constantly, equally suspicious of all construction workers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

People love to cite "See Aura" as such a great ability, but it's several I.S.P. or P.P.E. For only 15 seconds worth of that sight. No-one with the power can constantly afford to keep it active, so there needs to be some sort of "reason" to prompt the user to use it. Construction workers at the site of tbe Arch? Doesn't quite strike me as a "See Aura" situation, unless the character is constantly, equally suspicious of all construction workers.

Anyone with the Paranormal sight superpower has see aura on constantly, for free, all the time.

[eliakon]

People love to cite "See Aura" as such a great ability, but it's several I.S.P. or P.P.E. For only 15 seconds worth of that sight. No-one with the power can constantly afford to keep it active, so there needs to be some sort of "reason" to prompt the user to use it. Construction workers at the site of tbe Arch? Doesn't quite strike me as a "See Aura" situation, unless the character is constantly, equally suspicious of all construction workers.

No but see Aura or sense magic (or any number of other abilities) can see the arch. And once your investigating the arch then yes I would say that "the workers who started working on the arch right before the weird weather started and the arch became a magic item" probably would rank up there on the suspicious list...
which sets aside that mutant animals (among others) can have see aura for free and thus CAN have it up all the time....
(like the above mentioned Paranormal Sight power)

[eliakon]

People love to cite "See Aura" as such a great ability, but it's several I.S.P. or P.P.E. For only 15 seconds worth of that sight. No-one with the power can constantly afford to keep it active, so there needs to be some sort of "reason" to prompt the user to use it. Construction workers at the site of tbe Arch? Doesn't quite strike me as a "See Aura" situation, unless the character is constantly, equally suspicious of all construction workers.

Anyone with the Paranormal sight superpower has see aura on constantly, for free, all the time.

So the entire Deevil plan hinges on no-one having this power......
Now that is what I call a strong, resilient, brilliant plan. Very robust, well thought out.....
Or maybe its begging to be foiled (but hey its a comic book world, the bad guy plans are supposed to be idiot ball juggles that the hero's can thwart by the end of the mini-series so it works.)

[Nightmask]

People love to cite "See Aura" as such a great ability, but it's several I.S.P. or P.P.E. For only 15 seconds worth of that sight. No-one with the power can constantly afford to keep it active, so there needs to be some sort of "reason" to prompt the user to use it. Construction workers at the site of tbe Arch? Doesn't quite strike me as a "See Aura" situation, unless the character is constantly, equally suspicious of all construction workers.

Anyone with the Paranormal sight superpower has see aura on constantly, for free, all the time.

So the entire Deevil plan hinges on no-one having this power......
Now that is what I call a strong, resilient, brilliant plan. Very robust, well thought out.....
Or maybe its begging to be foiled (but hey its a comic book world, the bad guy plans are supposed to be idiot ball juggles that the hero's can thwart by the end of the mini-series so it works.)

How common is an always active ability to See Auras, megaverse-wise? If it's that uncommon they could simply consider it an unlikely thing that someone with the ability would just happen to be around to see something was wrong.

[eliakon]

People love to cite "See Aura" as such a great ability, but it's several I.S.P. or P.P.E. For only 15 seconds worth of that sight. No-one with the power can constantly afford to keep it active, so there needs to be some sort of "reason" to prompt the user to use it. Construction workers at the site of tbe Arch? Doesn't quite strike me as a "See Aura" situation, unless the character is constantly, equally suspicious of all construction workers.

Anyone with the Paranormal sight superpower has see aura on constantly, for free, all the time.

So the entire Deevil plan hinges on no-one having this power......
Now that is what I call a strong, resilient, brilliant plan. Very robust, well thought out.....
Or maybe its begging to be foiled (but hey its a comic book world, the bad guy plans are supposed to be idiot ball juggles that the hero's can thwart by the end of the mini-series so it works.)

How common is an always active ability to See Auras, megaverse-wise? If it's that uncommon they could simply consider it an unlikely thing that someone with the ability would just happen to be around to see something was wrong.

Fairly common actually. Its a very common supernatural ability, their rivals the Splugorth instill it with every Eye of Eylore they implant, their own Milk of Power and Deevil Pact can grant it, Mutant Animals are pretty common, there are several OCCs, PCCs, and RCCs that grant it....
Its not going to be super common, but its common enough. ESPECIALLY if they know that this world has super powered individuals and have spent any time there (Like say....someone who has spent 70+ years on earth explicitly making a study of their super powers.....)

[Razorwing]

You also have to remember one thing... Ley Lines tend to interfere with most means of detecting magic... or more precisely... the Ley Lines overwhelm such means of detection. Detect Magic in any form will merely detect the unusually high presence of magical energy in the area. The Arch, having been built over a Ley Line Nexus... will have always appeared to be magical because of its proximity to the Ley Lines. Anything built along or within a Ley Line will likewise appear to be magical just from the ambient energy surrounding it.

Using the See Aura power near the Arch will indeed show that practically everything in the area has a magical aura... due to the fact that one is on/near a Ley Line Nexus. Trying to sense the supernatural nature of any of the construction workers will be futile... because the ambient magical energy is drowning out their supernatural signature. It is like trying to use a heat detection device in a sauna... chances are all you will detect is the increased heat the sauna produces... or in this case the ambient magic of the ley lines themselves.

This is one of the reasons the Deevils chose these sites for their plan... because the ambient magical energy at these places will make detecting their presence much more difficult. True... such locations also attract the attention of others looking to use the power of such places for their own purposes, and could accidently expose their plans to the wrong people... but the Deevils are also quite confident that they are powerful enough to discourage most who would interfere with them. This is also why they have disguised those guarding the locations as something fitting for the location. Deevils may be arrogant, but they are not stupid. Humans may not be able to do much on their own, but why attract unwanted attention when it can be prevented?

Now, this isn't to say that the Deevil's plans can't be detected... just that it won't be casually noticed. Fore example, one would have to notice the strange occurrences happening in St. Louis such as the odd weather patterns and light rain of ash that falls upon random areas of the city once or twice a week. Tracking the occurrences of these phenomena could lead one to notice that they happen most often during specific times of the day (peak magical periods like noon, sunrise/sunset and midnight). It is even possible to track where the phenomena are occurring... possibly along predictable paths that seem to form lines across the city (occurring along the ley lines). Back tracking when the occurrences began could also lead one to discover when things began getting strange... and looking for something happening around that time could lead them to discover that the new construction on the Arch began shortly before all the strangeness. Combined with the rest of the information gathered (the pattern of where the phenomena have happened and when) could point to the Arch being the epicenter of all the strangeness... and worth investigating closer.

And even if one does take a closer look, the presence of the guards can help to divert the attention away from the true cause. Remember, Deevils are masters of deceit and manipulation... and many would make even the most oily of salesmen seem down right honest in comparison. Most have likely already dealt with human bureaucracy in the area, so it is very likely that they could spin a convincing yarn to satisfy even the most skeptical of investigators... at least for a time. Most likely also have contacts within law enforcement to have the police discreetly convince nosey heroes to stop bothering their workers and take their suspicions elsewhere. It is only after these attempts to deflect investigations of their work fail that they may take more drastic actions... but even here they will be intelligent about it. They will likely have sent minions (lesser Deevils while invisible) to follow such investigators and keep tabs on them... just in case they need to be dealt with in a more... permanent manner. If the investigator keeps digging... then it may be time for a pack of Deevils to be sent to convince him otherwise. This of course will be staged to divert attention away from the true plot... possibly framing some other villainous group that the investigator offended recently.

The Deevil's plot can be detected, given time, but being the master manipulators they are, it will likely take quite some time before most investigators can unravel the convoluted knot they've tied to figure out the truth... and by that time... it may be too late. Remember, the Heroes only have until June 21st to discover and stop it.

[eliakon]

You also have to remember one thing... Ley Lines tend to interfere with most means of detecting magic... or more precisely... the Ley Lines overwhelm such means of detection. Detect Magic in any form will merely detect the unusually high presence of magical energy in the area. The Arch, having been built over a Ley Line Nexus... will have always appeared to be magical because of its proximity to the Ley Lines. Anything built along or within a Ley Line will likewise appear to be magical just from the ambient energy surrounding it.
Using the See Aura power near the Arch will indeed show that practically everything in the area has a magical aura... due to the fact that one is on/near a Ley Line Nexus. Trying to sense the supernatural nature of any of the construction workers will be futile... because the ambient magical energy is drowning out their supernatural signature. It is like trying to use a heat detection device in a sauna... chances are all you will detect is the increased heat the sauna produces... or in this case the ambient magic of the ley lines themselves.

That is a workable house rule that could protect this..
But in HU (And PF, and BTS) Ley Lines are not strong enough to jam all sensors. This isn't Rifts where the magic is so strong its visible to the naked eye

There is nothing in the books to suggest that everything in a ley line, even in rifts, appears magic. I would be fascinated to see the citation that claims this. The best we have is that psi-stalkers have a problem smelling people on Rifts Earth.

This is one of the reasons the Deevils chose these sites for their plan... because the ambient magical energy at these places will make detecting their presence much more difficult.

No, they explicitly chose these site because that is where the Nexus Generators have to be placed to work. Period. Dot. End of sentence. Full Stop

True... such locations also attract the attention of others looking to use the power of such places for their own purposes, and could accidently expose their plans to the wrong people... but the Deevils are also quite confident that they are powerful enough to discourage most who would interfere with them. This is also why they have disguised those guarding the locations as something fitting for the location. Deevils may be arrogant, but they are not stupid. Humans may not be able to do much on their own, but why attract unwanted attention when it can be prevented?

Like the groups who are already said to be operating on most of the nexi in the HU world? (Which btw were compleately ignored in the Armagedon Unlimited book )

Now, this isn't to say that the Deevil's plans can't be detected... just that it won't be casually noticed. Fore example, one would have to notice the strange occurrences happening in St. Louis such as the odd weather patterns and light rain of ash that falls upon random areas of the city once or twice a week. Tracking the occurrences of these phenomena could lead one to notice that they happen most often during specific times of the day (peak magical periods like noon, sunrise/sunset and midnight). It is even possible to track where the phenomena are occurring... possibly along predictable paths that seem to form lines across the city (occurring along the ley lines). Back tracking when the occurrences began could also lead one to discover when things began getting strange... and looking for something happening around that time could lead them to discover that the new construction on the Arch began shortly before all the strangeness. Combined with the rest of the information gathered (the pattern of where the phenomena have happened and when) could point to the Arch being the epicenter of all the strangeness... and worth investigating closer.

And even if one does take a closer look, the presence of the guards can help to divert the attention away from the true cause. Remember, Deevils are masters of deceit and manipulation... and many would make even the most oily of salesmen seem down right honest in comparison. Most have likely already dealt with human bureaucracy in the area, so it is very likely that they could spin a convincing yarn to satisfy even the most skeptical of investigators... at least for a time. Most likely also have contacts within law enforcement to have the police discreetly convince nosey heroes to stop bothering their workers and take their suspicions elsewhere. It is only after these attempts to deflect investigations of their work fail that they may take more drastic actions... but even here they will be intelligent about it. They will likely have sent minions (lesser Deevils while invisible) to follow such investigators and keep tabs on them... just in case they need to be dealt with in a more... permanent manner. If the investigator keeps digging... then it may be time for a pack of Deevils to be sent to convince him otherwise. This of course will be staged to divert attention away from the true plot... possibly framing some other villainous group that the investigator offended recently.

The Deevil's plot can be detected, given time, but being the master manipulators they are, it will likely take quite some time before most investigators can unravel the convoluted knot they've tied to figure out the truth... and by that time... it may be too late. Remember, the Heroes only have until June 21st to discover and stop it.

Sure, if the GM makes a house rule that the rules do not actually apply tot he Deevils, and then changes how magic and psionics work in the game to allow them to hide, then sure they can hide pretty easy....
But if the Rules As Written are used (which is assumed since this is a Written book....) then the Arch stands out as a sore thumb begging to be investigated. Anyone that sees that will see through the workers disguises in minutes. After that its just (short) matter of time till the find the first Nexus Device. And like I said, one SUPER COMMON psionic ability later the whole plan is undone as any hero worth their salt is going to alert everyone and their dog that a 'destroy the world' plan is in operation.....

And then it might work on June 21st (the Dr. says it will.....of course this is the same person that thinks this plan is foolproof so is credibility is already sort of low)

The chance of the plan, as working is pretty much between zero and none.

[Glistam]

The range of sense magic is what, 90 feet or 120 feet? I wouldn't accuse the Arch of "sticking out like a sore thumb" if that's how close you have to be to sense it as magic.

[Razorwing]

The actual difference in Ley Lines between the two setting isn't quite what you think.

The Ley Lines on Rifts Earth are much wider, with an average width of 1 mile (HU Ley Lines are only about 1/4 mile wide at most), with the most powerful Lines being up to 2 miles wide. The amount of PPE world wide is also much higher as a result, allowing spells to do Mega-Damage and provide Mega-Damage Capacity (magic on HU Earth can only do SDC).

Despite this however, the amount of energy one can draw from the lines is still the same... 10 PPE per melee on the Line and 20 PPE per melee at a Nexus Point. This would suggest that the concentration of PPE in the Lines is still the same. It is like taking a cup of sea water and comparing the amount of salt in the cup to the amount of salt in the sea itself. While the sea will have more salt, the concentration of the two is still the same. This is why the Ley Lines grew during the Cataclysm... they couldn't hold all the additional PPE without growing in size.

What this means is that the effects of Ley Lines on sensory powers will be more limited. On Rifts Earth, a supernatural creature has a mile wide area (or more) to hide within... but on HU Earth, that area is only a 1/4 mile at best. The Ley Line will still interfere with such detections, but only within that 1/4 mile width (compared to a mile or more width on Rifts Earth). This gives supernatural creatures like Deevils less area to operate with relative impunity (with little fear of being detected), and means that those who can detect them can be closer to Ley Lines without as much interference than they would be able to on a world like Rifts Earth.

Additionally, the amount of energy at peak periods is substantially less on HU Earth than it is on Rift Earth (and last for significantly shorter periods).

Finally, most of supernatural creatures share the same powers and abilities as those who can detect them (or at least comparable powers/abilities). This also includes powers and abilities that can confuse or hide their nature and powers (Alter Aura, Mask PPE, Mind Block, even Invisibility). While such abilities are useful for detecting creatures like Deevils... they aren't infallible, or even a guarantee. In fact, most will only give a vague idea that something big, powerful or evil is near... but not an exact location. It will take a combination of powers used properly to even get a hint that something isn't quite right... let alone follow such clues to their source and uncover the truth. For every means of detection, there is a means of avoiding it... and Deevils are masters of deception and trickery.

[eliakon]

And again I say, please show the line in the book that says that everything on a ley line detects as being magical.
Because that would be an amazing thing to read. I would also be interested in reading where it says that sensory powers are useless on ley lines (which would be fascinating to read considering that canon books have people using these exact abilities on ley lines and getting information....which would suggest that the RAW do not support this claim)
Also lets be clear
Mind Block does not prevent aura's from being read just a full determination on them. Invisibility again doesn't help.
Sure like I said. If the GM wants to hand wave things away and bend/change the rules to make it fit that's cool.....
But the RAW doesn't support this as written.

[Tor]

As for the idea of finding a Time Lord from TDTMNT... well... that isn't going to happen (besides the fact that Palladium is no longer licensed to publish TMNT books [After the Bomb is their own setting]

Merlin in 'Mutants of Avalon' is a Time Lord, that's an After the Bomb book.

the information on Time Lords is woefully out of date compared to the rest of the Palladium Megaverse... and they are concerned about a different Earth in a different dimension... which is not the HU dimension).

There's a spells specifically designed to Time Jump in other dimensions, this leads me to think they do occasionally do that, even if their own continuity is their prime focus.

they don't have a spell that can do everything you suggest (the closest is Temporal Barrier which only prevents time travel... which could only last for 3 hours 45 minutes at a time).

You'd need a Diabolist to make a permanence ward, and it shouldn't be that hard to scrounge up the bone of a lesser demon or devil considering the enemy.

Heck, you don't even need Time Lords to do this, there's a Temporal Magic spell that does similar, it just has inferior range so you'd need to boost the range up to planet-scale via TTGD rules or else create multiple Temporal Barrier pockets throughout the world and eventually cover them over time, but that'd take a lot of permanence wards with the basic range on that thing.

[Razorwing]

For the record, it isn't the items on a Ley Line that are being detected as being magical... rather that the Ley Line itself that is being detected. A rock will register as being magical when one detects magic on a Ley Line, but take that rock away from the Ley Line and it will no longer register as being magical.

What exactly do you think Detect Magic does? It detects MAGICAL ENERGY. And what is a Ley Line? A river of MAGICAL ENERGY. Do you really need a sentence in a book to draw the connection for you? Okay... that sounded a bit more condescending than I intended... but still, the point stands.

[Razorwing]

Merlin in 'Mutants of Avalon' is a Time Lord, that's an After the Bomb book.

Written at a time when they still had the license for the TMNT book... at which time After the Bomb was a supplement for that game. Additionally, the Mutants in Avalon book has not been updated for the current form of After the Bomb.

To be honest, updating the other After the Bomb books (Road Hogs, Mutants of Avalon, Mutants Down Under and Mutants of the Yucatan), should have been done by now.