Game setting question.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:37 am

The hero is purely a physical character in the modern world. How would he hand any of the APS that are immune to physical damage; for example APS shadow? Or I am going to have to stick with villians who are in the purely physical range?

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:33 am

Give him the ability to temporarily get a hold of a weapon or hero/ally that can damage/threaten such a villain.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:55 am

HU2E pg73-4 has a 1/2 page spread on the basic topic. Basically they may be "invulnerable" to physical damage, but (depending on the specific powers of the character) can still be vulnerable by other means that the Physical Character can take advantage of (trap/imprison, oxygen/gas, etc).

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:41 pm

Glistam wrote:Give him the ability to temporarily get a hold of a weapon or hero/ally that can damage/threaten such a villain.

Yup, nothing like the classic story of the Hero suffering a humiliating defeat at the hands of a villain he can't defeat, only to go on a quest to find a weapon to even up fight.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:43 pm

Still there are some APS that isn't that easy to do against. :/

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:43 pm

SittingBull wrote:Still there are some APS that isn't that easy to do against. :/

Examples?

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:12 pm

aps shadow and light.

Incriptus · Unread post by **Incriptus** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:35 pm

PU2 Super Invention
Negate Super Abilities

Bob, Gun

Or everyone's favorite kill them in their sleep ;-)

... There are always going to be examples of obstacles that any single character can't overcome by themselves, they'll need outside help. Some powers are difficult to overcome, others very difficult in combination. Good thing the GM chooses the obstacles , most of the time.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:35 am

The player doesnt have super invention or negate powers.

I am working on things.

filo_clarke · Unread post by **filo_clarke** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:14 am

APS Shadow, this one is easy. Since this power specifically lists “ordinary light” as one of its weaknesses (taking 1D6 damage form an ordinary flashlight), I would say that this character is extremely vulnerable to Flash-Bangs, taking damage from one similar to the damage a grenade would cause to a flesh-and-blood character. Not only would this character take massive damage from the Flash-Bang, but he would also suffer double the normal blindness penalties… so that’s an easy one.

As for APS: Light, the only “ordinary” attacks that seem to harm this character are from Heat/Fire and Cold (and even then, half damage). This power is tougher to counter: I recommend heat-based attacks like phosphorous shotgun rounds, napalm, flame-throwers, or something similar. His flight ability and semi-intangibility make him difficult to pin down. Try to contain the character; trick him into a sealed room (like a walk-in freezer?) and then turn up the heat with a gasoline fire, or incendiary grenade.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:00 am

For at least three skill selections or one minor power, allow the character to purchase either the power punch OR power kick maneuver from physical training.
Since the character is not a Physical Training character he/she lacks complete understanding of the ART but can "Throw a mean left hook/Hook kick"
Balancing but not over powering.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:06 am

Aps-Liquid, Aps-Plasma, Intangible, Invulnerable, things normally immune to punchs and kicks Vampires, werewolves, Unicorn Dragons-_-

For a major power the Sea inquisitors Destroy Supernatural Evil ability works well also. I wpuld limit this to the characters only Major power.

filo_clarke · Unread post by **filo_clarke** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:51 am

say652 wrote:Aps-Liquid, Aps-Plasma, Intangible, Invulnerable, things normally immune to punchs and kicks Vampires, werewolves, Unicorn Dragons-_-

For a major power the Sea inquisitors Destroy Supernatural Evil ability works well also. I wpuld limit this to the characters only Major power.

I think SittingBull is looking for suggestions that do not involve using further powers to counter the APS Shadow/Light enemies. Adding MORE powers to combat a difficult enemy is a lazy tactic. "I can't destroy the villain; never fear, now I am an Apok/Sea Inquisitor/Cosmo-Dragon!!!!! No villain will escape me again!!!!"

Purpose-designed tools, and good tactics work best. These two APS powers are difficult to counter, but not impossible. APS Shadow has an extremely exploitable weakness, and just upping the "light attacks" from simple flashlights to police/military strobes and 10-million candelpower floodlights, will wreck his day in a hurry.

APS light is trickier, as it is much more mobile and resistant to cold/heat (the only two easily achievable attacks for an ordinary person). The trick is controlling the enemy's movements. Trick him into sealed containers. Limit his ability to use his laser attacks by having the area filled with combustible materials/fumes. Make it dangerous for him to use the full range of his powers without causing damage to himself/others. Then, hit him with as much fire as you can get your hands on. Heck... staging the battle in a fireworks factory sounds like an AWESOME endgame!

Finally, remember Intelligence wins fights: Do your research first. Most, if not all, superheroes/villains really have TERRIBLE methods of concealing their secret identities (So he always lands on the same rooftop, and then transforms back into a normal human? Oh, and he just puts on a pair of glasses and goes to work? And the phone book lists his alter-ego's home address?, Myth Busted!). Since the vast majority of supers couldn't function as their alter-egos 24/7 (what with needs like money, family, legal issues, etc.) then your PC has every right to be able to try and figure out who this person really is, where they work, who they care about, and then use that information as a weapon. A superhero/villain might not have any family, or even a job (maybe they survive by begging for dimes on street corners in order to wash their tights at the local laundromat), but I bet they don't want the police or government knowing where they live, in case there are warrants out for their arrest/lawsuits from victims/money owing for damage to public property. An Apok/Sea-Inquisitor/Cosmo-Dragon can be tough in a fight, but the F.B.I. and I.R.S. will be tougher, long-term.

As long as you remember that taking on a powerful opponent requires careful planning, and should not be rushed into, there are lots of ways for a normal human to beat a God.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:33 am

My way around the invulnerable thing is be a megahero.
Supernatural Creatures damage most things and if course Magic.
Nothing against the superior damage dealing capabilities of psionics, I like magic.
Especially TechnoWizard stuff.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:17 am

filo_clarke wrote:APS Shadow, this one is easy. Since this power specifically lists “ordinary light” as one of its weaknesses (taking 1D6 damage form an ordinary flashlight), I would say that this character is extremely vulnerable to Flash-Bangs, taking damage from one similar to the damage a grenade would cause to a flesh-and-blood character. Not only would this character take massive damage from the Flash-Bang, but he would also suffer double the normal blindness penalties… so that’s an easy one.

As for APS: Light, the only “ordinary” attacks that seem to harm this character are from Heat/Fire and Cold (and even then, half damage). This power is tougher to counter: I recommend heat-based attacks like phosphorous shotgun rounds, napalm, flame-throwers, or something similar. His flight ability and semi-intangibility make him difficult to pin down. Try to contain the character; trick him into a sealed room (like a walk-in freezer?) and then turn up the heat with a gasoline fire, or incendiary grenade.

Also don't be afraid to get help. Maybe a hero with the minor of Bend Light isn't all that big of a deal, but put him up against someone with APS Light and a little "outside the box" thinking later you may have the solution (or, more boringly, the Bend Light character should at least be able to force the APS Light guy to transform back to Human temporarily).

Particle Beam weapons, ion weapons, microwave weapons, and sonic weapons should all still be effective against the APS: Light guy. Shadow attacks are particularly effective (30% chance of dissipating the character for 2D6 melees per hit!) and they're also effective against the APS: Shadow guy.

Bottom line is that this is a classic trope of Super Hero stories. The hero encounters a villain who cannot be hurt/stopped by the hero. The villain accomplishes his mission and moves on, oblivious to the hero's interference. This can happen a few times. It can take research and making the right contacts (and a race against time!) to assemble the appropriate means of dealing with this villain before his goal is met. There should definitely be some trial and error involved, but there should also be supporting NPC's who the hero can go to for help and guidance in such a matter. No man is an island.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:52 am

True access to certain hightech and lol "preptime" does defeat just about anything.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:13 pm

Glistam wrote:
filo_clarke wrote:APS Shadow, this one is easy. Since this power specifically lists “ordinary light” as one of its weaknesses (taking 1D6 damage form an ordinary flashlight), I would say that this character is extremely vulnerable to Flash-Bangs, taking damage from one similar to the damage a grenade would cause to a flesh-and-blood character. Not only would this character take massive damage from the Flash-Bang, but he would also suffer double the normal blindness penalties… so that’s an easy one.

As for APS: Light, the only “ordinary” attacks that seem to harm this character are from Heat/Fire and Cold (and even then, half damage). This power is tougher to counter: I recommend heat-based attacks like phosphorous shotgun rounds, napalm, flame-throwers, or something similar. His flight ability and semi-intangibility make him difficult to pin down. Try to contain the character; trick him into a sealed room (like a walk-in freezer?) and then turn up the heat with a gasoline fire, or incendiary grenade.

Also don't be afraid to get help. Maybe a hero with the minor of Bend Light isn't all that big of a deal, but put him up against someone with APS Light and a little "outside the box" thinking later you may have the solution (or, more boringly, the Bend Light character should at least be able to force the APS Light guy to transform back to Human temporarily).

Particle Beam weapons, ion weapons, microwave weapons, and sonic weapons should all still be effective against the APS: Light guy. Shadow attacks are particularly effective (30% chance of dissipating the character for 2D6 melees per hit!) and they're also effective against the APS: Shadow guy.

Bottom line is that this is a classic trope of Super Hero stories. The hero encounters a villain who cannot be hurt/stopped by the hero. The villain accomplishes his mission and moves on, oblivious to the hero's interference. This can happen a few times. It can take research and making the right contacts (and a race against time!) to assemble the appropriate means of dealing with this villain before his goal is met. There should definitely be some trial and error involved, but there should also be supporting NPC's who the hero can go to for help and guidance in such a matter. No man is an island.

The setting is almost all supers are villians. The PC, in the city he is in, is the only hero and quickly becoming very popular as a result.

glitterboy2098 · Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:08 am

talk to the Gm and decide if the Gm will allow 'creative' approaches. like for example, if the badguy is APS:Water, can you dump a bunch of fast setting cement or the like onto him and slow him down? or dump a big dewar of liquid nitrogen and freeze him?

stuff like that.

ShadowLogan · Unread post by **ShadowLogan** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:07 am

The setting is almost all supers are villians. The PC, in the city he is in, is the only hero and quickly becoming very popular as a result.

That doesn't mean some villain(s) might not be willing to "team up with" or "lend a hand to" the hero to take out a rival if it is in their interest as Villains are likely to have their own factions and not a homogeneous group and may even be enemies themselves.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:41 am

SittingBull wrote:The setting is almost all supers are villians. The PC, in the city he is in, is the only hero and quickly becoming very popular as a result.

That's kind of an important detail. It sounds like this PC is just going to have to run away. If he has no allies he can count on and no access to advanced/temporary weaponry, then he's kind-of out of luck.

This doesn't negate anything that filo_clarke had to say earlier, though. The hero will have to use smart tactics and trickery in order to survive these villains. It's not too hard with the Shadow character, but the Light character does pose a legit challenge.

If villain NPC's like this are going to be too hard, as G.M. you have the power to change them. That's a pretty simple solution, too.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:09 am

I like the mysterious appearance of particle beam weapons approach.
Pew! pew! pew!

Sir_Spirit · Unread post by **Sir_Spirit** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:33 am

APS shadow's can be killed by a kid with a flashlight.
Pathetically weak.
Most others can are specifically damagable by "force" effects/weapons.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:12 am

Sir_Spirit wrote:APS shadow's can be killed by a kid with a flashlight.
Pathetically weak.
Most others can are specifically damagable by "force" effects/weapons.

Except for APS Light, the other example in this topic, which is immune to force effects.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:08 pm

Sir_Spirit wrote:APS shadow's can be killed by a kid with a flashlight.
Pathetically weak.
Most others can are specifically damagable by "force" effects/weapons.

Force effects/weapons?

Regularguy · Unread post by **Regularguy** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:13 pm

Maybe I missed something: you say he doesn't own a super invention, and say652 says he's not a Physical Training character -- but what is he? Analytical Genius? Stage Magician? Hunter/Vigilante? What?

Sir_Spirit · Unread post by **Sir_Spirit** » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:05 am

SittingBull wrote:
Sir_Spirit wrote:APS shadow's can be killed by a kid with a flashlight.
Pathetically weak.
Most others can are specifically damagable by "force" effects/weapons.

Force effects/weapons?

Forcefields, force sword, blaster etc.....

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:48 am

The 'easy' answer is "If the power negates your hero's abilities, and the player isn't smart enough to think around the limitation, don't use that power"

There's dozens of powers out there. You don't have to throw the one at him that he cant counter. APS light for example, psionics, magic, etc can hurt it but if your hero has none of that and nothing but physical powers, and is the 'only' hero in town (So can't get help) It's kinda jerky to put him up against that sort of thing.

Villains dont have to be -easy- to beat. Sometimes the hero DOES need to RUN AWAY. Regroup. Think about how to win. Even yes, seek out aid to do so.

In a solo game this might come to the fore even more. Team games, usually your team sort of builds up. Some are strong where others are weak, but solo, you're limited by the one guy.

Another way to do it, is to give the villain a weakness. Doesn't have to be from the books. Most heroes and villians have weaknesses.

Venom for example, is phobic of even small amounts of fire. A guy waving a lighter at him once made the symboite flee. Sound also messed him up. Spiderman ccould be overpowered in a knock down drag out fight with him, but he lured him into a bell tower once to use the sound against him. Then he went to his buddy Reed (If memory serves) and got a sonic cannon.

Your APS Light guy has to have a weakness of some sort.

Maybe he has to return to physical form once the sun goes down, or X amount of hours a day, so the hero can stalk him at night to fight him. Maybe he gets weaker if he doesn't get sunlight a certain amount of day, you know. Something that the Hero can 'figure out' or even 'hear about' and use.

"Challenging" and "difficult" are good for your opponints. Noone wants things too easy and to just wade through it.
"Impossible" is not fun.

Fleeing a tough enemy, regrouping, thinking, planning, even getting help. Fun.
Just getting trashed as there's no way not to win. Not fun.

Powerful foes with a flaw that can be found out and exploited? Fun
Powerful foes with no flaws that just kill your hero. Not fun.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:49 pm

If going the tech vs supers route.
Particle beam and phase weapons hurt just about everything.
For defensive purposes I recommend Force fields, camouflage systems, and the bestest an out of phase field generator, the contra gravity flight systems are silent and have great speed.

Also an experiment with.
Multiple Beings.
Negate Super Powers.
Transferal/possession.
never hurts. Lol.

filo_clarke · Unread post by **filo_clarke** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:16 pm

say652 wrote:If going the tech vs supers route.
Particle beam and phase weapons hurt just about everything.
For defensive purposes I recommend Force fields, camouflage systems, and the bestest an out of phase field generator, the contra gravity flight systems are silent and have great speed.

Also an experiment with.
Multiple Beings.
Negate Super Powers.
Transferal/possession.
never hurts. Lol.

So, your solution to "my character has powers that are ineffective against these villains" is "be a different character"?

EDIT: Post edited. - NMI

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:54 pm

Sir_Spirit wrote:
SittingBull wrote:
Sir_Spirit wrote:APS shadow's can be killed by a kid with a flashlight.
Pathetically weak.
Most others can are specifically damagable by "force" effects/weapons.

Force effects/weapons?

Forcefields, force sword, blaster etc.....

No such items in the current setting but thank you.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:56 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The 'easy' answer is "If the power negates your hero's abilities, and the player isn't smart enough to think around the limitation, don't use that power"

There's dozens of powers out there. You don't have to throw the one at him that he cant counter. APS light for example, psionics, magic, etc can hurt it but if your hero has none of that and nothing but physical powers, and is the 'only' hero in town (So can't get help) It's kinda jerky to put him up against that sort of thing.

Villains dont have to be -easy- to beat. Sometimes the hero DOES need to RUN AWAY. Regroup. Think about how to win. Even yes, seek out aid to do so.

In a solo game this might come to the fore even more. Team games, usually your team sort of builds up. Some are strong where others are weak, but solo, you're limited by the one guy.

Another way to do it, is to give the villain a weakness. Doesn't have to be from the books. Most heroes and villians have weaknesses.

Venom for example, is phobic of even small amounts of fire. A guy waving a lighter at him once made the symboite flee. Sound also messed him up. Spiderman ccould be overpowered in a knock down drag out fight with him, but he lured him into a bell tower once to use the sound against him. Then he went to his buddy Reed (If memory serves) and got a sonic cannon.

Your APS Light guy has to have a weakness of some sort.

Maybe he has to return to physical form once the sun goes down, or X amount of hours a day, so the hero can stalk him at night to fight him. Maybe he gets weaker if he doesn't get sunlight a certain amount of day, you know. Something that the Hero can 'figure out' or even 'hear about' and use.

"Challenging" and "difficult" are good for your opponints. Noone wants things too easy and to just wade through it.
"Impossible" is not fun.

Fleeing a tough enemy, regrouping, thinking, planning, even getting help. Fun.
Just getting trashed as there's no way not to win. Not fun.

Powerful foes with a flaw that can be found out and exploited? Fun
Powerful foes with no flaws that just kill your hero. Not fun.

Thank you, some of this I was thinking myself. Also have started throwing things at him not villain related. Building fires, horrible accidents, etc.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:26 pm

Have the character make friends with an elderly survivalist nutjob.
Guy is aggravating and whacko but those liquid nitrogen grenades really saved my butt type thing.

Regularguy · Unread post by **Regularguy** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:22 pm

Regularguy wrote:Maybe I missed something: you say he doesn't own a super invention, and say652 says he's not a Physical Training character -- but what is he? Analytical Genius? Stage Magician? Hunter/Vigilante? What?

Still curious.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:04 pm

Mutant super soldier.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:16 pm

What's his status with his sponsoring organization?

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:35 pm

He is on the run and wanted by the people who made him.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:34 am

If all the supers of the world are villains, there's gotta be some sort of underground movement that opposes them. They would have the resources to help him fight the villians you're concerned about. Maybe the organization's leadership doesn't trust him, but there's a few in the group who are willing to extend that trust anyway, and they become his support?

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:03 am

Also, what are the powers of the hero in question?

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:21 pm

Glistam think a certain VERY popular mutant with metal bones and claws.

Regularguy · Unread post by **Regularguy** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:34 pm

Glistam wrote:This doesn't negate anything that filo_clarke had to say earlier, though. The hero will have to use smart tactics and trickery in order to survive these villains. It's not too hard with the Shadow character, but the Light character does pose a legit challenge.

For $30, an incendiary hand grenade does 1 MDC to anything within twelve feet; he takes half damage, but how many can you pitch at the guy in a round?

filo_clarke · Unread post by **filo_clarke** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:48 pm

Regularguy wrote: For $30, an incendiary hand grenade does 1 MDC to anything within twelve feet; he takes half damage, but how many can you pitch at the guy in a round?

I think that it is less the "Resistant to Heat Damage" part, and more the semi-intangible and able to fly part. Pinning this guy down long enough to lob a grenade will be difficult, and since he passes through most materials, he won't be setting off any tripwires or pressure plates. It still comes down to good tactics and planning. Sure you could get lucky and time the grenade perfectly so he doesn't get a chance to rocket away at the speed of light (up to 1 mile per level, as I recall), but relying on luck when taking on a super-human is a risky gamble.

SittingBull · Unread post by **SittingBull** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:29 pm

Regularguy wrote:
Glistam wrote:This doesn't negate anything that filo_clarke had to say earlier, though. The hero will have to use smart tactics and trickery in order to survive these villains. It's not too hard with the Shadow character, but the Light character does pose a legit challenge.

For $30, an incendiary hand grenade does 1 MDC to anything within twelve feet; he takes half damage, but how many can you pitch at the guy in a round?

No MD in Heroes but good point.

Regularguy · Unread post by **Regularguy** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:55 pm

SittingBull wrote:No MD in Heroes but good point.

The entry in Heroes Unlimited actually lists their damage as "2d4x10+20 S.D.C. (or 1 M.D.C.)".

Razorwing · Unread post by **Razorwing** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:57 pm

Regularguy wrote:
SittingBull wrote:No MD in Heroes but good point.

The entry in Heroes Unlimited actually lists their damage as "2d4x10+20 S.D.C. (or 1 M.D.C.)".

Only if one rolls maximum damage does it equal 1 MDC. The average damage will be about 70 SDC which does not equal 1 MDC (one does not round SDC damage up to deal MD). Additionally, while it may equal 1 MDC at best, HU does not use MD rules... so to bring such a reference into a setting that doesn't use them only adds to the confusion.

Let's try to keep examples of tactics and solutions that can be used to the rules that the setting actually uses.

Regularguy · Unread post by **Regularguy** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:20 am

Razorwing wrote:while it may equal 1 MDC at best, HU does not use MD rules... so to bring such a reference into a setting that doesn't use them only adds to the confusion.

Let's try to keep examples of tactics and solutions that can be used to the rules that the setting actually uses.

Again, that's a direct quote from the HU book. I have no idea why the HU book "actually uses" the 1 M.D.C. language, but I'm not the one bringing that reference into the setting; the reference is already, like, right there.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:45 pm

Regularguy wrote:
Razorwing wrote:while it may equal 1 MDC at best, HU does not use MD rules... so to bring such a reference into a setting that doesn't use them only adds to the confusion.

Let's try to keep examples of tactics and solutions that can be used to the rules that the setting actually uses.

Again, that's a direct quote from the HU book. I have no idea why the HU book "actually uses" the 1 M.D.C. language, but I'm not the one bringing that reference into the setting; the reference is already, like, right there.

It's either a cut-and-paste error or one of their 'for use in an MDC setting' notations, as they sometimes point out a few weapons might do a point or two of mega-damage if used in an MDC setting. So the grenade in question if used in an MDC setting will deal one point of mega-damage to an MDC target.

Razorwing · Unread post by **Razorwing** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:54 pm

Nightmask wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
Razorwing wrote:while it may equal 1 MDC at best, HU does not use MD rules... so to bring such a reference into a setting that doesn't use them only adds to the confusion.

Let's try to keep examples of tactics and solutions that can be used to the rules that the setting actually uses.

Again, that's a direct quote from the HU book. I have no idea why the HU book "actually uses" the 1 M.D.C. language, but I'm not the one bringing that reference into the setting; the reference is already, like, right there.

It's either a cut-and-paste error or one of their 'for use in an MDC setting' notations, as they sometimes point out a few weapons might do a point or two of mega-damage if used in an MDC setting. So the grenade in question if used in an MDC setting will deal one point of mega-damage to an MDC target.

Actually... most of the time, it won't do any damage to an MDC structure as it only does enough damage when one rolls the maximum amount of damage. In all other cases... it doesn't even leave a scratch (one does not round up SDC damage to do a point of MD... fractions of a MD point are always ignored when SDC damage is converted).

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:53 pm

Razorwing wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
Razorwing wrote:while it may equal 1 MDC at best, HU does not use MD rules... so to bring such a reference into a setting that doesn't use them only adds to the confusion.

Let's try to keep examples of tactics and solutions that can be used to the rules that the setting actually uses.

Again, that's a direct quote from the HU book. I have no idea why the HU book "actually uses" the 1 M.D.C. language, but I'm not the one bringing that reference into the setting; the reference is already, like, right there.

It's either a cut-and-paste error or one of their 'for use in an MDC setting' notations, as they sometimes point out a few weapons might do a point or two of mega-damage if used in an MDC setting. So the grenade in question if used in an MDC setting will deal one point of mega-damage to an MDC target.

Actually... most of the time, it won't do any damage to an MDC structure as it only does enough damage when one rolls the maximum amount of damage. In all other cases... it doesn't even leave a scratch (one does not round up SDC damage to do a point of MD... fractions of a MD point are always ignored when SDC damage is converted).

That's not actually true, that's an 'does this OR this' deal, not a 'if you deal enough damage it may deal a point of mega-damage'. So the weapon in question WILL deal a point of mega-damage if used against an MDC target, while dealing the listed SDC damage to an SDC target.

Razorwing · Unread post by **Razorwing** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:50 pm

I'm afraid not... it is an all or nothing deal. If it deals 1 point of MD every time, then it deals 100 SDC damage. If it doesn't deal 100 SDC damage every time, it can't do 1 MD. This is the reason you can't take a high powered rifle and deal 100s of SDC damage to an MDC target and expect to do MD to it... the effects of SDC weaponry on MD targets only works when they deal damage in that range consistently. This grenade doesn't fit that bill because most of the time it will not deal enough damage to harm such a structure.

You are basically stating that a weapon that might deal 100 SDC damage if you are very lucky will always deal 1 MD when used against an MDC target. There is only a 1 in 16 chance of getting the exact roll needed to deal that much damage in a single explosion.

There is a point when you have to take a step back from what the books say and ask yourself... does this really make sense? Does it make sense that a grenade that on average isn't going to do enough SDC damage to equal 1 MD will always do 1 MDC to an MDC target? No... it does not.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:13 pm

Razorwing wrote:I'm afraid not... it is an all or nothing deal. If it deals 1 point of MD every time, then it deals 100 SDC damage. If it doesn't deal 100 SDC damage every time, it can't do 1 MD. This is the reason you can't take a high powered rifle and deal 100s of SDC damage to an MDC target and expect to do MD to it... the effects of SDC weaponry on MD targets only works when they deal damage in that range consistently. This grenade doesn't fit that bill because most of the time it will not deal enough damage to harm such a structure.

You are basically stating that a weapon that might deal 100 SDC damage if you are very lucky will always deal 1 MD when used against an MDC target. There is only a 1 in 16 chance of getting the exact roll needed to deal that much damage in a single explosion.

There is a point when you have to take a step back from what the books say and ask yourself... does this really make sense? Does it make sense that a grenade that on average isn't going to do enough SDC damage to equal 1 MD will always do 1 MDC to an MDC target? No... it does not.

If you want to house rule it that way you're free to do so, but that's not how it's written and I see no problems with it when confronted with an MDC material in an MDC setting dealing a point of MDC even though it has a range of SDC damage it can deal. Also note that 1 point of MDC is ROUGHLY equal to 100 SDC, and there are other examples where it notes that a weapon with a range that can come close or roughly equal to 100 SDC will deal a flat 1 MDC to an MDC item.