Reflecting Energy Expulsion Powers

[Razorwing]

There was an argument a while back in a now locked thread where a poster made the conclusion that because one doesn't take damage from their own Energy Expulsion powers (as they fire them at others) then they won't take damage from those same attacks if it is reflected back at them (as in the shot they fired is reflected back at them... not unlike a Jedi parrying an energy blast back at his attacker).

I would like to propose a theory as to how one can fire an energy blast without taking damage and yet still be injured by that same blast if it were reflected back to the original attacker.

The reason one doesn't take damage when shooting electricity/fire or what ever energy one uses is because the damaging part of the energy being released is being projected away from the source. This is very much like what most energy weapons do... they project the damaging energy away from the weapon so that the weapon itself takes no damage. This is why a person who could project a bolt/ball of fire with Energy Expulsion: Fire (but without Immunity to Fire) takes no damage when he throws/projects his fire attack, yet can be injured by his own attack if it is somehow reflected back at him. The damaging energy he projected away from himself is now coming back at him to deal damage.

Like I said... very much like how a person with a blaster could shoot at a jedi (without his gun taking any damage from generating the energy blast) only to have the jedi reflect the blast back at him (more specifically at his weapon) and damaging it. Same basic principle. A laser pistol has no particular immunity to the laser it emits, so it will take damage if the laser it shoots is somehow reflected back at it. Yet at the same time, the laser pistol takes no damage from the laser it emitted because it was projecting that damaging energy away from it.

Now... the question is... is there a flaw with this reasoning?

[wyrmraker]

Reflecting energy back to the generator has always been well within the genre of super powers. In GURPS, there's a specific addition to powers that can be purchased called 'Doesn't Harm User'. Without the enhancement, a blast can indeed harm the originator in the case of a reflection or really bad ricochet.

The minor power Bend Light can be used to redirect a beam of light at it's originator. If that targeted deflection wouldn't injure the person creating the laser beam, then it would most certainly state so in the description of either Bend Light or one of the Energy Expulsions.

[say652]

Ok first HOUSE RULE regarding refected and redirected attacks. Remember energy expulsion inmho also inculdes magic energy spells and the Kineticises And of course energy weapons.
Tread lightly.

An attack that becomes under anothers control as soon as this event occurs its technically a "new" and suprise attack.
In such even characters immune to attack a knockback occurs in damage dice converted to feet knockedback/up.
So a 1D6 laser pistol blast, reflective parried back. Weapon user immune to damage.
Suprised he is knockedback 1D6 feet for zero damage.

[eliakon]

I would agree that a reflected power would harm the user. However until it is reflected back I would say that the presumption would be that it wont harm you. Or put more simply in the normal course of events one is not at risk of taking damage from ones powers.

If you fly a super speed you are presumed to be protected (some how) from the damage that would be incurred by flying into the normal hazards of the air (like bugs). But if that becomes a specific hazard then it might be relevant but outside of that I would say that, for instance there is no reason to presume that 'well lets see you take 1d4 points of damage every mile you fly' would be reasonable. Nor would I say that it would be fair to tell a jumper that they always take damage on jumping ("I am sorry but you jumped to far, you will take leap kick damage to yourself unless you can make a roll with fall or impact roll....every time you jump"). In that same vein I would say that harming an energy expeller for the normal and routine use of their power would similarly be unfair. But I would also say that encountering something that can reflect your power back on you is not a 'routine use' of anything!

[Razorwing]

This is more about why characters with Energy Expulsion powers but no immunity to the energy they release don't take damage when using said powers. My theory is because they are projecting the energy away from themselves... much like how an energy weapon projects their destructive energy away from the weapon so it doesn't take damage. Reflect that energy back at the person and they take damage... just like if you are able to bounce an energy blast back at the weapon that fired it, the weapon would be damaged.

Is this reasoning flawed in any way?

[The Artist Formerly]

I've always concluded that without specific notations in the power or character build, a character is immune to the effects of their own power. A cyber knight can poke himself in the eye with his own psi-sword, a EE fire character can point their hands at their body and blast until the cows come home. The cyber knight, however would not be immune to someone else's psi-sword, nor would that EE fire character be immune to any other source of fire. And if something catches fire from his or her blast, then the character is in jeopardy from that source.

[eliakon]

I've always concluded that without specific notations in the power or character build, a character is immune to the effects of their own power. A cyber knight can poke himself in the eye with his own psi-sword, a EE fire character can point their hands at their body and blast until the cows come home. The cyber knight, however would not be immune to someone else's psi-sword, nor would that EE fire character be immune to any other source of fire. And if something catches fire from his or her blast, then the character is in jeopardy from that source.

I guess that would work for a house rule....
But I could see a lot of problems with the 'never affected by their own powers'. Stuff like AoE powers like smoke, if they are immune to their own powers....do they not get blinded by their smoke clouds? It can get even worse if you have spells in this (point blank CoA, followed by Magic Net when they cant dodge, and then walk up and slit their throats....).
Which is why I am closer to the OPs stance. You are undamaged by your own powers under normal circumstances. But you can be hurt by second order effects or by abnormal situations.

[The Artist Formerly]

I've always concluded that without specific notations in the power or character build, a character is immune to the effects of their own power. A cyber knight can poke himself in the eye with his own psi-sword, a EE fire character can point their hands at their body and blast until the cows come home. The cyber knight, however would not be immune to someone else's psi-sword, nor would that EE fire character be immune to any other source of fire. And if something catches fire from his or her blast, then the character is in jeopardy from that source.

I guess that would work for a house rule....
But I could see a lot of problems with the 'never affected by their own powers'. Stuff like AoE powers like smoke, if they are immune to their own powers....do they not get blinded by their smoke clouds? It can get even worse if you have spells in this (point blank CoA, followed by Magic Net when they cant dodge, and then walk up and slit their throats....).
Which is why I am closer to the OPs stance. You are undamaged by your own powers under normal circumstances. But you can be hurt by second order effects or by abnormal situations.

Those would be effect zones, and a off-tangent on the damage dealt to self concept in the original thread. Case by case in those instances. We're trying to build reasonable responses to irrational concepts. Fire and Lightning can't be directed at a target without some sort of specific circumstances. But like a George Clooney movie plot, it works in our imaginations due to the willful suspension of disbelief.

[say652]

Superspeed rams unless noted in the power description deal only 1/3 damage to the rammer.

Hu2nd edition in the combat section.

[Tor]

I've always concluded that without specific notations in the power or character build, a character is immune to the effects of their own power. A cyber knight can poke himself in the eye with his own psi-sword

I don't like how your house rule interferes with a possible Coake seppuku.

Or what if you are in a situation like Agent Coulson was in the Agents of Shield finale and there is no axe-wielding ally to help out?

[Razorwing]

I have to disagree with the idea that a person is inherently immune to their powers. While there are very few powers that can reflect energy attacks back at the person who generate the them, by saying that a person (without any specified immunity to their energy type) is inherently immune to it more or less makes those powers useless.

I think that the idea that the damaging portion of the energy generated is being directed away from the being generating it is a viable explanation as to why they can generate destructive energies without injuring themselves, yet still be hurt by their own power if it were to be reflected back at themselves (unless of course they have an additional power or sub-power that makes them immune). This is the same for magic and psionics as much as it is for super powers. A wizard who casts a spell can be affected by that very spell if it is reflected back at them... though such magic is usually quite rare (as are most powers that can reflect energies). This is also why you don't see psychics impaling themselves on their own weapon... doing so would hurt, even kill them.

The simple fact is that these powers don't say one is immune to the energy they generate (even if it is just the energy they generate and not the energy in general). While one is free to make the assumption that they are, going by the rules as written... unless a power specifically states it offers some form of immunity, then one has to assume that one isn't immune, even to their own powers (should those powers somehow be reflected back at them). How strictly one chooses to follow this is their own choice (though a particular GM always has final say in his games).

This doesn't mean that a character with EE: Fire (but not immune to fire) will take damage when he generates and throws his fireballs at others (as he is directing the energy away from himself), but WILL take damage from those fireballs if they are somehow reflected back at him. One can generate energy without taking damage yet still be vulnerable to the energy they generated if it is reflected back at them.