Insect Flight (powers/category traits/mutants/aliens)

[Niji]

I have long noticed insect wings type flight(except dragonfly) is portrayed extremely poorly in palladium books.
Winged Insect flight is enormously complex, while one could argue that the brain could preform the precise calculations required for it "subconsciously" (much like the normal human ability of trick shooting and hand/tool use in general) it requires a fair amount of brain power. Though again one could argue "in the real world" no knowledge of math is necessary for the brain to preform extraordinarily complex calculations and signal the body appropriately for movement(most people might perceive it as "I move to there(as efficiently/inefficiently/capriciously to avoid danger/decidedly to stalk prey as specifically as possible)" if even that much conscious acknowledgement goes on.). But it seems like IQ or PP bonuses would be mandatory(or a baseline minimum required to take such a power or such a power or mutation or natural trait would raise your PP IQ to such a level), it would definitely be in the 12+ range for PP or 10+ range for IQ(mostly spatial perception however, but a perfect score in that would net you a minimum of 110 IRL or an 16 in in game terms).
Though perhaps a skill bonus to navigation/pilot would make a bit more sense: Innately possessing the brain capable of using these wings adds a bonus of +20% increase navigation and Piloting/Flight/Aerodynamics/Trajectory related skills, just from reaching level 1 usage of your wings.

Then comes the complex different types of flight maneuvers available based on specific subcategory of insect wing (if you've ever watched a pair of butterflies chase or play with each other you will understand, especially once informed the butterflies consciously calculate each movement, dart, dip, dive, dodge, etc at an incredible processing rate, and they have very tiny neural system comparatively), And perhaps most importantly the irregular Vortexes formed around the insects when the wings are active(especially while hovering), at a human size such wings would create impressive near body vortex like deflection from projectiles at the side(easily alter the path of bullets and anything small enough to be affected by winds = to 2x the wings currently available maximum flight speed). Ultimately insect wings should have significantly different bonuses at the very least from the other wing types to at least casually reflect this (one could argue while a butterfly has enormously greater dodge and autododge compared to other flight modes the exceptionally noticeable appearance makes them easy targets giving a kind of bonus to strike for attackers and large bonus to dodge, leveling out to around a +4(+8 to dodge non-ranged attacks and when dogfighting or a modest auto dodge in full flight)dodge over all. Beetle type flight would offer exceptional hovering bonuses and some "shield wings" providing a natural AR (or protective SDC bonus to protect the delicate flight powering wings beneath them), Dragonfly type flight would offer much greater stability(though its more closely related to other types of winged flight) and a PS bonus due to the extreme muscular nature of their almost exclusive method of flight(only dragonflies and mayflies fly this way of the insects), and the various other flight based insect wings would offer noticeable or slight bonuses to structural flexibility(character torso is unusually flexible and resistant to impact and crushing/twisting damage). With the major weakness for insect flight being flight becomes very difficult in wind or vortexes stronger than the character's own capable flight speed (either exhaustion penalties, or dodge and maneuverability penalties in strong winds or disrupting vortexes, hover or gliding maneuvers would be particularly affected(for better or worse).



So... Essentially my question is, has anyone come out with a "makes sense" (and possibly without being too complicated) or "feels good" alteration to insect flight game mechanics differing it from the other flight powers (except perhaps vortex flight) and abilities/mutations/natural traits.

I felt it a good idea to fully explain my logic and predicament as this kind of oriented(at the very least a convincing explination for how a super power might work, natural abilities obviously must fall into "observable function" realm of explanation(an insect winged flying nearly identical to a leather winged, or feather winged character is preposterous, while "wingless" flight abilities fall into that "magical realm" of telekinesis/the fields that compose reality manipulation realm and is much easier to suspend/explain away disbelief, though of course mutated/natural abilities must more strictly follow "observable" real life functionality) Game Master and Player.

If no one has officially or unofficially posted anything usable/discussable on this before, than I hope we can have an at least semi-serious discussion on the pros and cons of this, or at the very least why it should be dismissed and how to give it that "believable" edge. Insect Flight as currently described in the books is just completely unbelievable currently when looking at them next to other forms of flight.

And as an afterthought I had the Idea it granting something like a skill "Insect Flight Maneuvers" that improves with level and grants appropriate penalties and bonuses based on your type of maneuvers using currently.



To break it down to its most barest bones. Look at a skilled basic common insect flight(fruit fly, butterfly, beetle, dragonfly) and then a bird flying, or an animated superhero with wingless flight and notice the stark unforgivable differences, try and reason why insect flight should be stated or explained as it is in game given these rather extreme differences (when "imagined up" to human sized proportions). Or how you think it should be altered in in-game mechanics terms?

[Razorwing]

To put it bluntly... you are way over thinking things.

In this game... flight is flight regardless of how one accomplishes it. Yes, there are different ways to achieve it... but essentially they are more or less the same thing... and nearly all break the rules of physics to one degree or another. Such powers aren't supposed to be a "realistic" portrayal of how flight actually works... but more of the comic-book fantasy of "Hey! I can Fly!" type deal... which actually goes for all powers. Chances are that no character is going to try to figure out the physics of how they can do what they do (most couldn't even if they wanted to... and those that might be able to probably couldn't figure it out anyways since most powers defy physics as we know it).

That said... if you want to take a more realistic approach and add bonuses you feel are needed to the powers (to make them realistic in an unreal setting), then that is your choice. I am sure someone has also thought of it... but the general feel of the game has always been... this is what your character can do (and they do it well) so why question how they do it (beyond: they're a mutant/alien/etc.)

[NMI]

If you check out the awesome The Black Vault, there are dozens of Flight powers, some of which are insect-like in nature.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm with Razorwing on this one. You're overthinking it.

Heck there's scientists that say that 'scientificly' Bees can't fly. It doesn't 'work' with how we understand physics. *shrugs* yet, They fly just fine.

If anything, I think it's like you pointed out yourself. When we, as humans (For those out there reading this that ARE human) We don't go through physics equasions of math and what not when we decide to get up, or walk across a room, or type on a computer. Now some of us are better at walking and some better at typing. Myself, I type very fast. I wear 'through' the keys on keyboards quite rapidly. Not just wearing off the letters but actually wearing -through- the plastic. That said I don't think about the 100s of muscles I must move and what not to sit here and type. I just think of the words I want and my fingers move and make them. Muscle memory, trained action etc. When I get up to go get a Dr Pepper I don't think "Ok I have to move on my vertical balance point, throw this much weight forward while exerting this much upwards force with my thigh muscles and then tighten my lower back muscles to straighten out etc etc etc. I just, grunt and stand my fat butt up off the couch and go and get a pop.

For the Insect flight, I see it as much the same thing. They're not doing advanced flight math to acheive flight. They have wings. They flap them. They fly. Just like we walk across a room with out thinking about it. Just like a martial artist who's dodging a punch doesn't go through the entire equasion, he just dodges out of the way. Bobbing and weaving, diving and rolling. Same thing with insect flight.

My current alien has this as one of his powers. Granted he got it in a round about fashion but yeah. He just 'does it'. (Now for full disclosure he's got an absurdly high PP, but still when playing one doesn't dive into the math)

Most GM's don't give the mechanics of it too terribly much thought (As pointed out, superpowers by and large defy modern science) if anything the GM might pause, as "Flight: Insect" gives you a free 'shrink' (Though limited) under a minor power. it's much more limited than the Major 'Shrink' power but still some GM's twitch.

[Stone Gargoyle]

If you check out the awesome The Black Vault, there are dozens of Flight powers, some of which are insect-like in nature.

I did the following powers:
http://wiki.thedeificnmi.com/index.php? ... sect_Wings
http://wiki.thedeificnmi.com/index.php? ... ed-Revised

[The Artist Formerly]

I have long noticed insect wings type flight(except dragonfly) is portrayed extremely poorly in palladium books.
Winged Insect flight is enormously complex, while one could argue that the brain could preform the precise calculations required for it "subconsciously" (much like the normal human ability of trick shooting and hand/tool use in general) it requires a fair amount of brain power. Though again one could argue "in the real world" no knowledge of math is necessary for the brain to preform extraordinarily complex calculations and signal the body appropriately for movement(most people might perceive it as "I move to there(as efficiently/inefficiently/capriciously to avoid danger/decidedly to stalk prey as specifically as possible)" if even that much conscious acknowledgement goes on.). But it seems like IQ or PP bonuses would be mandatory(or a baseline minimum required to take such a power or such a power or mutation or natural trait would raise your PP IQ to such a level), it would definitely be in the 12+ range for PP or 10+ range for IQ(mostly spatial perception however, but a perfect score in that would net you a minimum of 110 IRL or an 16 in in game terms).
Though perhaps a skill bonus to navigation/pilot would make a bit more sense: Innately possessing the brain capable of using these wings adds a bonus of +20% increase navigation and Piloting/Flight/Aerodynamics/Trajectory related skills, just from reaching level 1 usage of your wings.

Then comes the complex different types of flight maneuvers available based on specific subcategory of insect wing (if you've ever watched a pair of butterflies chase or play with each other you will understand, especially once informed the butterflies consciously calculate each movement, dart, dip, dive, dodge, etc at an incredible processing rate, and they have very tiny neural system comparatively), And perhaps most importantly the irregular Vortexes formed around the insects when the wings are active(especially while hovering), at a human size such wings would create impressive near body vortex like deflection from projectiles at the side(easily alter the path of bullets and anything small enough to be affected by winds = to 2x the wings currently available maximum flight speed). Ultimately insect wings should have significantly different bonuses at the very least from the other wing types to at least casually reflect this (one could argue while a butterfly has enormously greater dodge and autododge compared to other flight modes the exceptionally noticeable appearance makes them easy targets giving a kind of bonus to strike for attackers and large bonus to dodge, leveling out to around a +4(+8 to dodge non-ranged attacks and when dogfighting or a modest auto dodge in full flight)dodge over all. Beetle type flight would offer exceptional hovering bonuses and some "shield wings" providing a natural AR (or protective SDC bonus to protect the delicate flight powering wings beneath them), Dragonfly type flight would offer much greater stability(though its more closely related to other types of winged flight) and a PS bonus due to the extreme muscular nature of their almost exclusive method of flight(only dragonflies and mayflies fly this way of the insects), and the various other flight based insect wings would offer noticeable or slight bonuses to structural flexibility(character torso is unusually flexible and resistant to impact and crushing/twisting damage). With the major weakness for insect flight being flight becomes very difficult in wind or vortexes stronger than the character's own capable flight speed (either exhaustion penalties, or dodge and maneuverability penalties in strong winds or disrupting vortexes, hover or gliding maneuvers would be particularly affected(for better or worse).



So... Essentially my question is, has anyone come out with a "makes sense" (and possibly without being too complicated) or "feels good" alteration to insect flight game mechanics differing it from the other flight powers (except perhaps vortex flight) and abilities/mutations/natural traits.

I felt it a good idea to fully explain my logic and predicament as this kind of oriented(at the very least a convincing explination for how a super power might work, natural abilities obviously must fall into "observable function" realm of explanation(an insect winged flying nearly identical to a leather winged, or feather winged character is preposterous, while "wingless" flight abilities fall into that "magical realm" of telekinesis/the fields that compose reality manipulation realm and is much easier to suspend/explain away disbelief, though of course mutated/natural abilities must more strictly follow "observable" real life functionality) Game Master and Player.

If no one has officially or unofficially posted anything usable/discussable on this before, than I hope we can have an at least semi-serious discussion on the pros and cons of this, or at the very least why it should be dismissed and how to give it that "believable" edge. Insect Flight as currently described in the books is just completely unbelievable currently when looking at them next to other forms of flight.

And as an afterthought I had the Idea it granting something like a skill "Insect Flight Maneuvers" that improves with level and grants appropriate penalties and bonuses based on your type of maneuvers using currently.



To break it down to its most barest bones. Look at a skilled basic common insect flight(fruit fly, butterfly, beetle, dragonfly) and then a bird flying, or an animated superhero with wingless flight and notice the stark unforgivable differences, try and reason why insect flight should be stated or explained as it is in game given these rather extreme differences (when "imagined up" to human sized proportions). Or how you think it should be altered in in-game mechanics terms?

From a gaming mechanics view, you're looking at further bogging down play in notes and conditional modifiers. When I run a game, and given four players, I want a given fight to be over in 30 minutes of real time or less. That way we can get to the good stuff. This game already has a lot in the way of play when it comes to combat.

Now with that statement out of the way. I do advocate a skill check for characters who have extreme movement types. A flight skill to reflect control rolls for those times when you need to get something done under duress. So, running at speeds above 60 MPH, and any flight power. No skill spent, 35% chance, no increase per level, IQ and prowess bonuses applicable. Situational penalties still apply. Skill spent, 50%+5 per level for flight. 60% +5 per level for running. IQ and prowess bonuses apply. Situational penalties still apply. Must be taken as a secondary skill, unless the player has GM approved special background, as almost no school on earth teaches such things.

As to the mechanics of insect flight, vs flight wingless or other flight, I would suggest that you are approaching this from the wrong end of power application, trying to apply the powers and bonuses as they fit into the real world. I would suggest instead, you define the power set you want or rolled and tie them together as they define the bonuses. For example, by taking the flight power, you can only scrape up the advantages listed in the power. Bargain basement level deal, but at least you can get your ass off the ground. Add in the flight skill I mentioned above, and you've added some control and nuance to your ability. Now add to that Lightning reflexes. Suddenly, your character has a understanding of flight, movement, spatial relationships, sensitivity to air currents across your wings, and raw brain processing power as it relates to your physical surroundings. Trouble is, all that extra data and sensitivity makes sleeping tough and you tend to act before you think it through.

Now the last part of this, using your wings' vortices to deflect bullets. That's really, really, really, really tough to do with just air pressure unless we have great distances to work with as well. Momentum is extremely difficult to overcome, even with some of the truly great forces of the universe. If you added manipulate kinetic energy or impact resistance into your build, you can achieve that effect, then link it to "flight power must be active" but in terms of theme, we've kind of drifted. Both Flight: winged and Insect flight come with their own dodge bumps, so I'd just stick with that. Armoring of one's wings is best represented with either a power like hardened skin, giving your entire body a toughening that reflects the insect elements in your genesis (not to mention you could describe some of your punch attacks as a wing buffet style strike), or Increased Durability, using the SDC bump to reflect how pathetic such attacks are against you.

In all cases, you have to remember, you aren't building an human insect hybrid with the powers of both, you're building something, else.

[Pepsi Jedi]

While I agree that training in one's superpowers should result in being a better super hero, one isn't penalized for running if one didn't take the running skill. You just don't run above and beyond the norm. There aren't skill checks for walking across the room or even running across the room. A flat 35% skill chance for doing something under duress, would equate to flying into walls or something 2 out of 3 times. lol that's pretty horrific.

If your hero hasn't literally spent one of his skills, to 'use' his super power (Which takes up the slot of having 'that' power, instead of a different power for say) Then he fails most of the time? Heck far more than half at 2 out of 3?

OUCHY

That's harsh.

With that said I've proposed more than once, a "Super hero OCC" Which would at it's core, train super heroes to 'be' super heroes, instead of say... the Pizza guy who just happens to have powers. A 'trained' hero would be better. These wouldn't penalize those 'not' trained, but much like the physical skills, benifit those that were. Power increases and what not. I've been lazy and not worked it up. (Even though I've talked about it enough I SHOULD have by now.) Powers like Energy Expulsion might be +1 lvl. So if you're at lvl 1, your EExpulsion would rank as lvl 2, Or you might get bonus to strike, or longer duration, etc.

I could also see rolling to see if you do something truely spectacular with your powers. If you have flight insect and you want to fly at top speed through a collapsing building, dodging all flying debris, and then fly into the mouth of your screaming enemy and down his throat.... sure you need to roll for some of that. One way to do it is a skill percentage. Another would be "here toss me 5 dodges as you fly though the building dodging debris, and then a called shot strike roll to fly down the guy's throat"

6 of 1, half a dozen of another.

If I DID go skill percentage (which is fair) I'd give it to the character when he got the power.

I.E. "Flight insect. here's how fast you go, you shrink, here's your dodge bonus, and here's your 'Aerobatics skill" it starts at 60+5% per level.

I would give it to them as part of the power itself. Otherthings could add to it. (Say you're of the super hero OCC, you might get +15% on 'Trained super hero power skills. Like, Areobatics, for flight char's or 'Controlled high speed running' for speedsters, etc.) Under a physical skill, it could also get bonus if you get flat bonus to all your physicals, etc.

[The Artist Formerly]

While I agree that training in one's superpowers should result in being a better super hero, one isn't penalized for running if one didn't take the running skill. You just don't run above and beyond the norm. There aren't skill checks for walking across the room or even running across the room. A flat 35% skill chance for doing something under duress, would equate to flying into walls or something 2 out of 3 times. lol that's pretty horrific.

If your hero hasn't literally spent one of his skills, to 'use' his super power (Which takes up the slot of having 'that' power, instead of a different power for say) Then he fails most of the time? Heck far more than half at 2 out of 3?

OUCHY

That's harsh.

With that said I've proposed more than once, a "Super hero OCC" Which would at it's core, train super heroes to 'be' super heroes, instead of say... the Pizza guy who just happens to have powers. A 'trained' hero would be better. These wouldn't penalize those 'not' trained, but much like the physical skills, benifit those that were. Power increases and what not. I've been lazy and not worked it up. (Even though I've talked about it enough I SHOULD have by now.) Powers like Energy Expulsion might be +1 lvl. So if you're at lvl 1, your EExpulsion would rank as lvl 2, Or you might get bonus to strike, or longer duration, etc.

I could also see rolling to see if you do something truely spectacular with your powers. If you have flight insect and you want to fly at top speed through a collapsing building, dodging all flying debris, and then fly into the mouth of your screaming enemy and down his throat.... sure you need to roll for some of that. One way to do it is a skill percentage. Another would be "here toss me 5 dodges as you fly though the building dodging debris, and then a called shot strike roll to fly down the guy's throat"

6 of 1, half a dozen of another.

If I DID go skill percentage (which is fair) I'd give it to the character when he got the power.

I.E. "Flight insect. here's how fast you go, you shrink, here's your dodge bonus, and here's your 'Aerobatics skill" it starts at 60+5% per level.

I would give it to them as part of the power itself. Otherthings could add to it. (Say you're of the super hero OCC, you might get +15% on 'Trained super hero power skills. Like, Areobatics, for flight char's or 'Controlled high speed running' for speedsters, etc.) Under a physical skill, it could also get bonus if you get flat bonus to all your physicals, etc.

No, the rules I built are for when players want to do more then just get from A to B. For example using EX SPD to run into a burning building, grab a fire extinguisher by the door, zip up the stairs, while they are on fire, natch, grab a lady and her baby and make the return trip as the stairs are collapsing thus having to keep his/her speed up to gain traction on surfaces that aren't entirely connected to anything. Or flying through a collapsing chunk of manhattan trying to catch people falling from the building without getting crushed by debris. That's a skill check. Flying out to sea to try and rescue people on a ship in a storm, flying through that storm while staying low enough to make visible contact with the ship, and staying on your heading, that's a skill check. The skill check is for using your powers under these extreme circumstances.

I always considered it the danger room concept. In the Comics, the X-men were supposed to be better trained and able to handle **** because of the invaluable training they got from the Danger Room. Depending on who's writing that can be hit or miss, but the same can be said of all comics. And they do routinely pants the Avengers despite the Avengers having significantly more power then X-men (unless it's Phoenix Force week ).

I like this form of dice check vs using dodge or parry because it avoids a situation where the player could face a beat a 12 on a d20 or die situation. If they make the roll, everything is fine. If they miss it by a bit 1 to 15% , then a few scrapes or bruises or something (makes players feel heroic). If they flat out miss it then I can either hit them with some damage and give them another check as if they had missed a climbing check, thus giving them a recovery check or I can go to the dodge/parry vs a 12 roll. But most importantly, it makes the player invest into the character. Sure you could have used your secondary skill you got at 3rd to pick up Spanish, would have been helpful too. BUT. You learned how to control your flight while in tough situations.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I agree that training (Like the Xmen get, or the Avengers Academy, etc) -should- be a thing. That's why I've proposed an OCC or two to represent it.
(Really need to try and get those thoughts on paper)

That said, a 1/3rd chance of success with no hope to ever improve, is a pretty crappy superhero. Any time the feces hits the osculating rotor, your hero is crashing into buildings, or tripping at 200mph, or breaking his wings flying into a tree.

[The Artist Formerly]

I agree that training (Like the Xmen get, or the Avengers Academy, etc) -should- be a thing. That's why I've proposed an OCC or two to represent it.
(Really need to try and get those thoughts on paper)

That said, a 1/3rd chance of success with no hope to ever improve, is a pretty crappy superhero. Any time the feces hits the osculating rotor, your hero is crashing into buildings, or tripping at 200mph, or breaking his wings flying into a tree.

That's what secondary skills are for. It shows the player putting effort into mastering those powers while everyone else was off learning how to race motorcycles or run a computer.

In comics, we oft see our heroes fail because they haven't gained a grasp on the hows and whys of their powers. Then they take some time, we see a training montage, or alluded to, and then they get better at it. A bunch of the intro scenes and exposition scenes of this first season of the Flash have been about Barry training to use his powers.

[Daniel Stoker]

You're right... ish? I see where you're going and agree with you generally, the problem I see is that since Palladium doesn't take this into account at all do you also do this for magic users and psychics too?


Daniel Stoker

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah but he's kinda dumb (the flash in the new show). lol

You're not wrong, the training montage is a part of standard superhero fare, but I see that as 'Working your way to 1st level" I.E. the training montages we see when the heroes get their powers is them learning to use them efficently and once the montage ends. They've "Achieved first level" as a hero. So their powers work now.

In my proposed (Yet STILL unwritten, lazy lazy) Super Hero OCCs, the training would be more indepth. Instead of just running around a roof top and learning to sling webs, the hero was either taught by a mentor or his hero buddies, or in the second, fully educated by an official training academy. Be it like the Xmen or Like the Avengers Academy, or a formalized governmental training facility, etc.

The formalized training, would give some sort of bonus above standard heros.

So your standard hero that... went to college for journalisim, and just happened to fall bass ackwards into being a hero. Gets the basic powers. Lets call him hero A
the hero with formalized training (And thus a Super hero OCC) if he had the exact same powers, would be a little better with them. We'll call him hero B.

now. Hero A can still gain levels and get awesome and by 5th level be a really cool hero, and by 15th level stand toe to toe with anyone in HU
Hero B, will just have that bit of bonus. At first level he's a little better than hero A. At second level Hero A might be roughly equal to Hero B at first level.

Now all things are not equal. hero A at 7th level with the exact same powers as hero B, will be stronger than hero B at... 4th level. Still, due to that formalized training, if they're the same level. hero B might be a bit more powerful. Hero A could still out smart him but hero B is 'putting out' a bit more.

This would have to be done roughly power by power. Which means your GM would need to think a couple minutes about it.

Formally trained heroes might simply get +1 lvl to their powers.
Thus
Hero A with Energy Expulsion Energy: Gets 3D6. at 1st lvl (2D6+1D6per lvl)
Hero B with the formalized training at first lvl, would have the same power at 'second' level, So his Energy Expulsion Energy, would be 4D6 at First lvl (2D6+1D6(1st lvl)+1D6(Training boost)

Hero A at second level would get 4D6
Hero B at second level would get 5D6

Etc. Not a ground breaking difference but one that could be felt and noticed. The difference between 'figuring it out on your own' and "Formalized training in the purposefull useage of super powers.

Now for powers that give 'bang' that's pretty simple. Other powers would require a bit more thought. Powers that give + to SDC for example might give +10% more SDC, as you've trained yourself to get the most out of your power.

Hero A might turn into metal and figured it out on his own
Hero B might turn into metal but has trained to do it faster and put more effort into it so his metal is 10% harder than Hero A's Metal.

And so on and so forth. Admin making the call on how the training would benit the hero that has it. Some powers.. it's just not going to help. Training might teach you to fly a bit faster than your long lost twin brother, if you both have wings and you've trained and he sat around eating cheetos, but training isn't going to make you 'more' invulnerable' than another 'invulnerable' guy. That's just life.

the OCC's proposed -would- give other training in the 'super hero arts'. So even the invulnerable guy will get benifit from it. (His OCC skills etc) Just not the boost to his power as his power is kinda binary. yes no, it works or it doesn't.

[The Artist Formerly]

Yeah but he's kinda dumb (the flash in the new show). lol

You're not wrong, the training montage is a part of standard superhero fare, but I see that as 'Working your way to 1st level" I.E. the training montages we see when the heroes get their powers is them learning to use them efficently and once the montage ends. They've "Achieved first level" as a hero. So their powers work now.

In my proposed (Yet STILL unwritten, lazy lazy) Super Hero OCCs, the training would be more indepth. Instead of just running around a roof top and learning to sling webs, the hero was either taught by a mentor or his hero buddies, or in the second, fully educated by an official training academy. Be it like the Xmen or Like the Avengers Academy, or a formalized governmental training facility, etc.

The formalized training, would give some sort of bonus above standard heros.

So your standard hero that... went to college for journalisim, and just happened to fall bass ackwards into being a hero. Gets the basic powers. Lets call him hero A
the hero with formalized training (And thus a Super hero OCC) if he had the exact same powers, would be a little better with them. We'll call him hero B.

now. Hero A can still gain levels and get awesome and by 5th level be a really cool hero, and by 15th level stand toe to toe with anyone in HU
Hero B, will just have that bit of bonus. At first level he's a little better than hero A. At second level Hero A might be roughly equal to Hero B at first level.

Now all things are not equal. hero A at 7th level with the exact same powers as hero B, will be stronger than hero B at... 4th level. Still, due to that formalized training, if they're the same level. hero B might be a bit more powerful. Hero A could still out smart him but hero B is 'putting out' a bit more.

This would have to be done roughly power by power. Which means your GM would need to think a couple minutes about it.

Formally trained heroes might simply get +1 lvl to their powers.
Thus
Hero A with Energy Expulsion Energy: Gets 3D6. at 1st lvl (2D6+1D6per lvl)
Hero B with the formalized training at first lvl, would have the same power at 'second' level, So his Energy Expulsion Energy, would be 4D6 at First lvl (2D6+1D6(1st lvl)+1D6(Training boost)

Hero A at second level would get 4D6
Hero B at second level would get 5D6

Etc. Not a ground breaking difference but one that could be felt and noticed. The difference between 'figuring it out on your own' and "Formalized training in the purposefull useage of super powers.

Now for powers that give 'bang' that's pretty simple. Other powers would require a bit more thought. Powers that give + to SDC for example might give +10% more SDC, as you've trained yourself to get the most out of your power.

Hero A might turn into metal and figured it out on his own
Hero B might turn into metal but has trained to do it faster and put more effort into it so his metal is 10% harder than Hero A's Metal.

And so on and so forth. Admin making the call on how the training would benit the hero that has it. Some powers.. it's just not going to help. Training might teach you to fly a bit faster than your long lost twin brother, if you both have wings and you've trained and he sat around eating cheetos, but training isn't going to make you 'more' invulnerable' than another 'invulnerable' guy. That's just life.

the OCC's proposed -would- give other training in the 'super hero arts'. So even the invulnerable guy will get benifit from it. (His OCC skills etc) Just not the boost to his power as his power is kinda binary. yes no, it works or it doesn't.

Ah.

Difference in game worlds, difference in story telling style.

In my game world, ours I guess, as three GMs use the same basics for different games, there are like six places in the world that teach these skills. We have a school on a island off the coast of Jersey, owned by a mutant with immortality who dates back to the time of Alexander. Xavier like, without copying any thing specific from the X-men. Merida, Mexico, well south east of there, , home of the retired super villain TKO. For a fee, he trains super-villains and the like. He is a physical training character who specialized in Gracie Jujitsu, and over the years acquired a list of contacts and support workers who can help young super villains. The school is connected to all of the major players in the super villain game, and is considered safe ground. SECTOR's nursery, some where south of the great salt lake in Utah. All US government superhumans have gone through school here, but even they would have a hard time pin pointing where it is, most of it's underground and great care has been taken to make one think their in either Nevada or New Mexico. Charm school, somewhere in Siberia, Russia. Run by ex-soviet super soldiers who think that Vladimir Putin is kind of a soft-hearted wiener. While they are technically part of Russia's government, their funding is self supported from "sources" and they basically do what they please. They have their own nuclear weapons. Exact location, unknown. Carthage, North Africa. Slice off chunks of Libya, Chad and Sudan, mix in a few Odessa super-Nazis (see the notes under Britannia in Gramercy Island, and the Freak-maker in Villains unlimited), a Libyan general who tired of Gaddafi and some serious oil and mineral wealth. They do work for hire, and occasionally manufacture super humans for other governments. The Israelis and the Iranians have both hired the place to beef up their own super human resources. Now that's irony. Finally, the 'other realm'. I don't know much about it. But it exists in sub-dimensional space. Places where mystic powers create super-human abilities or something. Magic crap. There is a doorway in New York, Seattle, London, Giza and several other places, but I only know of those four.

Used to be a school in China, but the PCs might have leveled the place for conducting frightening and horrifying experiments on Mutants to make their own super humans.

So if you didn't go there, you have to burn a secondary skill to pick up the above abilities.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah I don't think there'd be tons and tons of the schools in my game either. 6 to 10 world wide sounds pretty good.

As a side note. you just KNOW Putin has used money from Russia to hire someone to give him superpowers. I mean, you just know it.

[The Artist Formerly]

Yeah I don't think there'd be tons and tons of the schools in my game either. 6 to 10 world wide sounds pretty good.

As a side note. you just KNOW Putin has used money from Russia to hire someone to give him superpowers. I mean, you just know it.

Lol. To that effect, our games, almost all super-humans get their powers from Vossen (the Freak Maker). The allies rushed research labs in both Germany and Poland to gain his work. The problem is, it's not dependable and often causes horrible things, so no one wants to take it, unless they have no other choice. No one but him can get it to work right, and sometimes, he can't get it to work right either, cause he's a crazy psycho. The only other way to get super powers, other then to be born with them, is the Chicago mob family, Dyan Sagan's formula, and the Usurper formula. And that's it. We have it so you can get some stability from the Vossen formula (called Infinity Formula) if you mix in certain chemicals harvested from the brains of Mutants. All of this is used to create a super-human arms race, with every one on the UNSC playing except Great Briton because they've already won.

[Niji]

From a gaming mechanics view, you're looking at further bogging down play in notes and conditional modifiers. When I run a game, and given four players, I want a given fight to be over in 30 minutes of real time or less. That way we can get to the good stuff. This game already has a lot in the way of play when it comes to combat.

Now with that statement out of the way. I do advocate a skill check for characters who have extreme movement types. A flight skill to reflect control rolls for those times when you need to get something done under duress. So, running at speeds above 60 MPH, and any flight power. No skill spent, 35% chance, no increase per level, IQ and prowess bonuses applicable. Situational penalties still apply. Skill spent, 50%+5 per level for flight. 60% +5 per level for running. IQ and prowess bonuses apply. Situational penalties still apply. Must be taken as a secondary skill, unless the player has GM approved special background, as almost no school on earth teaches such things.

As to the mechanics of insect flight, vs flight wingless or other flight, I would suggest that you are approaching this from the wrong end of power application, trying to apply the powers and bonuses as they fit into the real world. I would suggest instead, you define the power set you want or rolled and tie them together as they define the bonuses. For example, by taking the flight power, you can only scrape up the advantages listed in the power. Bargain basement level deal, but at least you can get your ass off the ground. Add in the flight skill I mentioned above, and you've added some control and nuance to your ability. Now add to that Lightning reflexes. Suddenly, your character has a understanding of flight, movement, spatial relationships, sensitivity to air currents across your wings, and raw brain processing power as it relates to your physical surroundings. Trouble is, all that extra data and sensitivity makes sleeping tough and you tend to act before you think it through.

Now the last part of this, using your wings' vortices to deflect bullets. That's really, really, really, really tough to do with just air pressure unless we have great distances to work with as well. Momentum is extremely difficult to overcome, even with some of the truly great forces of the universe. If you added manipulate kinetic energy or impact resistance into your build, you can achieve that effect, then link it to "flight power must be active" but in terms of theme, we've kind of drifted. Both Flight: winged and Insect flight come with their own dodge bumps, so I'd just stick with that. Armoring of one's wings is best represented with either a power like hardened skin, giving your entire body a toughening that reflects the insect elements in your genesis (not to mention you could describe some of your punch attacks as a wing buffet style strike), or Increased Durability, using the SDC bump to reflect how pathetic such attacks are against you.

In all cases, you have to remember, you aren't building an human insect hybrid with the powers of both, you're building something, else.

Alright this was pretty much the most thorough and enlightening answer I saw, and pretty much answers all my questions too. You are right seeing your words I was definitely approaching it from the wrong end of things. Something like Flight Insect, Vortex/Spin At high Velocity, and Bio Armor/Thickskin/Lightning Reflexes/Etc would "mirror at a human sized scale" and then some more flavorfully. You really spelled it out well for me and gave me a completely different perspective to look at it from(and its strange normally I look at something from such a "build the idea" stance, but I don't know why I couldn't on this one on my own!).

Everyone's discussion was pleasing and eye opening over all. While I'll hold that playing a more "real" feel is my preferred attitude toward this game(and why i like it over all the other "super" games out there baring superworld) it is a good point that most powers only give a "partial concept/incomplete mutation" or such.

[The Artist Formerly]

Alright this was pretty much the most thorough and enlightening answer I saw, and pretty much answers all my questions too. You are right seeing your words I was definitely approaching it from the wrong end of things. Something like Flight Insect, Vortex/Spin At high Velocity, and Bio Armor/Thickskin/Lightning Reflexes/Etc would "mirror at a human sized scale" and then some more flavorfully. You really spelled it out well for me and gave me a completely different perspective to look at it from(and its strange normally I look at something from such a "build the idea" stance, but I don't know why I couldn't on this one on my own!).

Everyone's discussion was pleasing and eye opening over all. While I'll hold that playing a more "real" feel is my preferred attitude toward this game(and why i like it over all the other "super" games out there baring superworld) it is a good point that most powers only give a "partial concept/incomplete mutation" or such.

Glad to help. Your idea is great.

[Sir_Spirit]

I'm with Razorwing on this one. You're overthinking it.

Heck there's scientists that say that 'scientificly' Bees can't fly. It doesn't 'work' with how we understand physics. *shrugs* yet, They fly just fine.

1) Uh, no. "scientists" only said(past tense) that they didn't understand how bee's could fly.
2) They do, in fact, know how bee's can fly, they use vortices made by twirling their wings.
There was a big fuss about it when they found out a few years ago.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ok.... *shrugs* Different words same thing.