Power Channeling...what am I missing?

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Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Can someone please explain WHY P.S. damage is not added to damage?

Power Channeling does damage with....a release of kinetic energy....

Punches do damage from a transfer of ... kinetic energy...

Two sources of kinetic energy aren't stackable?

You can add damage bonuses from H-to-H styles...but not from P.S.?

Is this seen as too powerful? Please, help me see the light.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Sir_Spirit »

It's power overlaps with regular-slow speed melee attacks. Just give 'em super speed instead.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

barna10 wrote:Can someone please explain WHY P.S. damage is not added to damage?

Power Channeling does damage with....a release of kinetic energy....

Punches do damage from a transfer of ... kinetic energy...

Two sources of kinetic energy aren't stackable?

You can add damage bonuses from H-to-H styles...but not from P.S.?

Is this seen as too powerful? Please, help me see the light.


Well you can release the Kinetic Energy Blast through your fist or you can punch someone, but you can't do both.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Tor »

It does seem odd you cannot stack them, I figure most people house-rule that you can.

A neat middle-ground house-rule would be to give it a ranged aspect (maybe punch 1 extra foot per level) where you do not add PS damage but do add it when making direct contact.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

SpiritInterface wrote:
barna10 wrote:Can someone please explain WHY P.S. damage is not added to damage?

Power Channeling does damage with....a release of kinetic energy....

Punches do damage from a transfer of ... kinetic energy...

Two sources of kinetic energy aren't stackable?

You can add damage bonuses from H-to-H styles...but not from P.S.?

Is this seen as too powerful? Please, help me see the light.


Well you can release the Kinetic Energy Blast through your fist or you can punch someone, but you can't do both.


And you gain the bonuses from the HtH style since you're basically skilled in delivering your strikes in places that will cause more harm, so you deliver that power channel blast dealing kinetic energy to a key spot since the blast is substituting for the kinetic energy of the punch it gains just the skill bonus but can't gain the strength bonus because it's not your actual fist contacting them.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

I think some of you might be confusing Power Channeling with Energy Fists (from PU3).

Power Channeling states you release the energy 'on contact'. It even says you can release the energy when doing a full body tackle! There really is no reasoning out of this one, it just doesn't make a lick of sense why you can't add your P.S. bonus besides some sort of weird balancing issue.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Glistam »

The power is meant to be a way for someone to do enhanced damage in hand to hand combat without having to have one of the enhanced strength powers.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Glistam wrote:The power is meant to be a way for someone to do enhanced damage in hand to hand combat without having to have one of the enhanced strength powers.


Ok, I can see that, but why? You'll do more damage with one of the Enhanced Strength powers, and that doesn't explain why they can't stack.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Glistam »

You said it yourself. It's a "weird balancing issue." A G.M. is free to ignore this restriction if they so choose.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:
Glistam wrote:The power is meant to be a way for someone to do enhanced damage in hand to hand combat without having to have one of the enhanced strength powers.


Ok, I can see that, but why? You'll do more damage with one of the Enhanced Strength powers, and that doesn't explain why they can't stack.


One may not have one of the enhanced strength powers or not want one of them, preferring to have it more thematically appropriate to their character to have their enhanced damage be the result of something like Power Channeling. One reason they likely don't stack is because it's already included in the math, or it just cancels out whatever punch damage you'd normally do due to how it transfers damaging kinetic energy into the target.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

barna10 wrote:I think some of you might be confusing Power Channeling with Energy Fists (from PU3).

Power Channeling states you release the energy 'on contact'. It even says you can release the energy when doing a full body tackle! There really is no reasoning out of this one, it just doesn't make a lick of sense why you can't add your P.S. bonus besides some sort of weird balancing issue.


You can't add your PS because it is not an actual punch but a contact Energy Expulsion blast.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

SpiritInterface wrote:
barna10 wrote:I think some of you might be confusing Power Channeling with Energy Fists (from PU3).

Power Channeling states you release the energy 'on contact'. It even says you can release the energy when doing a full body tackle! There really is no reasoning out of this one, it just doesn't make a lick of sense why you can't add your P.S. bonus besides some sort of weird balancing issue.


You can't add your PS because it is not an actual punch but a contact Energy Expulsion blast.


Then why can you add other damage bonuses (from H-T-H styles, etc)? Also, you would add base damage from your attack style (a Flying Leap Kick would do 4D6 + Power Channeling Damage (2D6 + 1D6 per level)).

Saying it's "not an actual punch but a contact Energy Expulsion blast" goes against the logic of the description. Also, there is nothing in the description that indicates it is an explosion, only a 'surge'.

I'm house-ruling it that you can add P.S. bonuses, because nothing else makes sense, unless I wanted to rewrite the power as an explosion or something else.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
barna10 wrote:I think some of you might be confusing Power Channeling with Energy Fists (from PU3).

Power Channeling states you release the energy 'on contact'. It even says you can release the energy when doing a full body tackle! There really is no reasoning out of this one, it just doesn't make a lick of sense why you can't add your P.S. bonus besides some sort of weird balancing issue.


You can't add your PS because it is not an actual punch but a contact Energy Expulsion blast.


Then why can you add other damage bonuses (from H-T-H styles, etc)? Also, you would add base damage from your attack style (a Flying Leap Kick would do 4D6 + Power Channeling Damage (2D6 + 1D6 per level)).

Saying it's "not an actual punch but a contact Energy Expulsion blast" goes against the logic of the description. Also, there is nothing in the description that indicates it is an explosion, only a 'surge'.

I'm house-ruling it that you can add P.S. bonuses, because nothing else makes sense, unless I wanted to rewrite the power as an explosion or something else.


You can add the other bonuses because they aren't based on the kinetic energy of your punch but for things like finesse, while the way your attacking matters and alters the base damage because it's defining how you're making contact with better contact attacks dealing better contact damage while not getting anything from your strength bonuses because they're again irrelevant.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

barna10 wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
barna10 wrote:I think some of you might be confusing Power Channeling with Energy Fists (from PU3).

Power Channeling states you release the energy 'on contact'. It even says you can release the energy when doing a full body tackle! There really is no reasoning out of this one, it just doesn't make a lick of sense why you can't add your P.S. bonus besides some sort of weird balancing issue.


You can't add your PS because it is not an actual punch but a contact Energy Expulsion blast.


Then why can you add other damage bonuses (from H-T-H styles, etc)? Also, you would add base damage from your attack style (a Flying Leap Kick would do 4D6 + Power Channeling Damage (2D6 + 1D6 per level)).

Saying it's "not an actual punch but a contact Energy Expulsion blast" goes against the logic of the description. Also, there is nothing in the description that indicates it is an explosion, only a 'surge'.

I'm house-ruling it that you can add P.S. bonuses, because nothing else makes sense, unless I wanted to rewrite the power as an explosion or something else.


Heroes Unlimited 2ed page 236 'Power Channeling', "These superpunches deliver as much energy as any of the energy expulsions but the cannot be used at long range." This implies that Power Channeling is a form of energy expulsion and not a modification to melee combat. The power grants you a number of attacks that are not linked to your hand to hand skill contrary to what you have stated. You could have no Hand to Hand skill and still perform a leap kick or a power punch.

If you want to create a house rule that changes the power that is your prerogative as the GM.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Nightmask wrote:You can add the other bonuses because they aren't based on the kinetic energy of your punch but for things like finesse, while the way your attacking matters and alters the base damage because it's defining how you're making contact with better contact attacks dealing better contact damage while not getting anything from your strength bonuses because they're again irrelevant.



Sorry, no. Only some bonuses are for finesse. You add ALL bonuses EXCEPT P.S. bonuses. This means you get to add bonuses from Hardened bones, APS Stone, Body Hardening Techniques, etc. Why would these add to damage UNLESS you were hitting hard enough with your body to do damage BEFORE adding in POwer Channeling. If it were merely the Power Channeling doing the damage, these shouldn't be added either.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

SpiritInterface wrote:Heroes Unlimited 2ed page 236 'Power Channeling', "These superpunches deliver as much energy as any of the energy expulsions but the cannot be used at long range." This implies that Power Channeling is a form of energy expulsion and not a modification to melee combat. The power grants you a number of attacks that are not linked to your hand to hand skill contrary to what you have stated. You could have no Hand to Hand skill and still perform a leap kick or a power punch.


Sorry, saying it does as much damage as any of the Energy Expulsion powers does not imply it works the same. Does saying "it kicks like a horse" imply that something is a horse?

If it's all about a release of energy, and not about hitting something harder, why have different types of attack at all? Why not just list a damage level and move on? There should be no reason to list out different attack modes UNLESS HOW you attack matters. WHY would a the fact you are doing a leap attack instead of punching matter UNLESS it's about how hard you are hitting something (i.e. how much kinetic energy you are transferring to the target, the same thing even normal people do when they kick something...)? If it's not about how hard you are hitting the target, there should be just one damage level listed, LIKE the energy expulsion powers AND NO BONUSES SHOULD APPLY.

The power could simply be an Energy Expulsion power with no range, but it's not. Adding ALL bonuses BESIDES P.S. bonuses is just ridiculous.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:Heroes Unlimited 2ed page 236 'Power Channeling', "These superpunches deliver as much energy as any of the energy expulsions but the cannot be used at long range." This implies that Power Channeling is a form of energy expulsion and not a modification to melee combat. The power grants you a number of attacks that are not linked to your hand to hand skill contrary to what you have stated. You could have no Hand to Hand skill and still perform a leap kick or a power punch.


Sorry, saying it does as much damage as any of the Energy Expulsion powers does not imply it works the same. Does saying "it kicks like a horse" imply that something is a horse?

If it's all about a release of energy, and not about hitting something harder, why have different types of attack at all? Why not just list a damage level and move on? There should be no reason to list out different attack modes UNLESS HOW you attack matters. WHY would a the fact you are doing a leap attack instead of punching matter UNLESS it's about how hard you are hitting something (i.e. how much kinetic energy you are transferring to the target, the same thing even normal people do when they kick something...)? If it's not about how hard you are hitting the target, there should be just one damage level listed, LIKE the energy expulsion powers AND NO BONUSES SHOULD APPLY.

The power could simply be an Energy Expulsion power with no range, but it's not. Adding ALL bonuses BESIDES P.S. bonuses is just ridiculous.


Not when you can't show how it is that the PS bonus is no different than the other bonuses to justify adding it on top of the other bonuses. The reason for the different attacks should be obvious as well: you're channeling different amounts of power based on how you shape the attack and since it's about channeling power into your target when you hit it it no more gains the bonuses from PS than someone using Energy Expulsion: Electricity would.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Then explain why you can bonuses to damage from Body Hardening.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Glistam »

I'm sorry, but I think you've made an interpretation that I don't agree with here. The power states:

    "Damage increases with level and all bonuses are applicable, except for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus, because it is the release of energy that does that damage, not the force of the blow."

Reading this I would not let any damage bonus apply - not bonus damage from an APS power, not damage bonus from an experiment side effect, not damage bonus from other powers, not damage bonus from hand to hand skill... you get the idea. My interpretation of the write-up above indicates to me that the damage listed by the power should be all that's figured into the final damage. Not even the attacks "base" damage.

The "all bonuses are applicable" part I interpret to mean all the strike bonuses a character would get.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Glistam »

SpiritInterface wrote:Heroes Unlimited 2ed page 236 'Power Channeling', "These superpunches deliver as much energy as any of the energy expulsions but the cannot be used at long range." This implies that Power Channeling is a form of energy expulsion and not a modification to melee combat. The power grants you a number of attacks that are not linked to your hand to hand skill contrary to what you have stated. You could have no Hand to Hand skill and still perform a leap kick or a power punch.

I don't agree. You still need a combat skill that allows you to do those moves in order to use them. The power lists the damage just for a point of reference - not because it gives you that ability.
Zerebus: "I like MDC. MDC is a hundred times better than SDC."

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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Glistam wrote:I'm sorry, but I think you've made an interpretation that I don't agree with here. The power states:

    "Damage increases with level and all bonuses are applicable, except for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus, because it is the release of energy that does that damage, not the force of the blow."

Reading this I would not let any damage bonus apply - not bonus damage from an APS power, not damage bonus from an experiment side effect, not damage bonus from other powers, not damage bonus from hand to hand skill... you get the idea. My interpretation of the write-up above indicates to me that the damage listed by the power should be all that's figured into the final damage. Not even the attacks "base" damage.

The "all bonuses are applicable" part I interpret to mean all the strike bonuses a character would get.


Sorry, it's simple English: "..ALL bonuses are applicable, EXCEPT for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus (singular)..". Simple, clear English, not ambiguous.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:
Glistam wrote:I'm sorry, but I think you've made an interpretation that I don't agree with here. The power states:

    "Damage increases with level and all bonuses are applicable, except for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus, because it is the release of energy that does that damage, not the force of the blow."

Reading this I would not let any damage bonus apply - not bonus damage from an APS power, not damage bonus from an experiment side effect, not damage bonus from other powers, not damage bonus from hand to hand skill... you get the idea. My interpretation of the write-up above indicates to me that the damage listed by the power should be all that's figured into the final damage. Not even the attacks "base" damage.

The "all bonuses are applicable" part I interpret to mean all the strike bonuses a character would get.


Sorry, it's simple English: "..ALL bonuses are applicable, EXCEPT for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus (singular)..". Simple, clear English, not ambiguous.


Except for the rest of the sentence that explicitly notes that the damage is due to the release of energy and NOT the force of the blow, so PS bonuses are out, strike and other bonuses are in that aren't due to the force of the blow. So yes simple clear english, nothing ambiguous about 'no PS bonuses, other bonuses okay'.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Nightmask wrote:
barna10 wrote:Sorry, it's simple English: "..ALL bonuses are applicable, EXCEPT for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus (singular)..". Simple, clear English, not ambiguous.


Except for the rest of the sentence that explicitly notes that the damage is due to the release of energy and NOT the force of the blow, so PS bonuses are out, strike and other bonuses are in that aren't due to the force of the blow. So yes simple clear english, nothing ambiguous about 'no PS bonuses, other bonuses okay'.


Except now you're missing the whole point of this thread! Yes, language is clear, but not logical. Please see the OP.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Glistam »

barna10 wrote:
Glistam wrote:I'm sorry, but I think you've made an interpretation that I don't agree with here. The power states:

    "Damage increases with level and all bonuses are applicable, except for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus, because it is the release of energy that does that damage, not the force of the blow."

Reading this I would not let any damage bonus apply - not bonus damage from an APS power, not damage bonus from an experiment side effect, not damage bonus from other powers, not damage bonus from hand to hand skill... you get the idea. My interpretation of the write-up above indicates to me that the damage listed by the power should be all that's figured into the final damage. Not even the attacks "base" damage.

The "all bonuses are applicable" part I interpret to mean all the strike bonuses a character would get.


Sorry, it's simple English: "..ALL bonuses are applicable, EXCEPT for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus (singular)..". Simple, clear English, not ambiguous.


    "It is the release of energy that does that damage, not the force of the blow."

I'm going to agree to disagree with you here and bow out of the conversation. I've made my ruling and I stand by it.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Glistam wrote:
barna10 wrote:
Glistam wrote:I'm sorry, but I think you've made an interpretation that I don't agree with here. The power states:

    "Damage increases with level and all bonuses are applicable, except for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus, because it is the release of energy that does that damage, not the force of the blow."

Reading this I would not let any damage bonus apply - not bonus damage from an APS power, not damage bonus from an experiment side effect, not damage bonus from other powers, not damage bonus from hand to hand skill... you get the idea. My interpretation of the write-up above indicates to me that the damage listed by the power should be all that's figured into the final damage. Not even the attacks "base" damage.

The "all bonuses are applicable" part I interpret to mean all the strike bonuses a character would get.


Sorry, it's simple English: "..ALL bonuses are applicable, EXCEPT for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus (singular)..". Simple, clear English, not ambiguous.


    "It is the release of energy that does that damage, not the force of the blow."

I'm going to agree to disagree with you here and bow out of the conversation. I've made my ruling and I stand by it.


Fair enough
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
barna10 wrote:Sorry, it's simple English: "..ALL bonuses are applicable, EXCEPT for the character's normal P.S. damage bonus (singular)..". Simple, clear English, not ambiguous.


Except for the rest of the sentence that explicitly notes that the damage is due to the release of energy and NOT the force of the blow, so PS bonuses are out, strike and other bonuses are in that aren't due to the force of the blow. So yes simple clear english, nothing ambiguous about 'no PS bonuses, other bonuses okay'.


Except now you're missing the whole point of this thread! Yes, language is clear, but not logical. Please see the OP.


I've read the entire thread, have not missed the point of the thread at all, and find the language both clear and logical. The power's energy release damage is not additive with the damage from PS, if that's not logical to you and you wish to change the power description because you want them to be additive that's up to you but as written it's quite logical.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Slight001 »

Upon impact isn't logical for a nonadditive description. For something to impact something else it must touch if two objects are touching then by law they are transferring energy between themselves.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Nightmask wrote:I've read the entire thread, have not missed the point of the thread at all, and find the language both clear and logical. The power's energy release damage is not additive with the damage from PS, if that's not logical to you and you wish to change the power description because you want them to be additive that's up to you but as written it's quite logical.


Sorry, not logical. If no bonuses were applicable, that would be logical. Allowing ALL OTHER bonuses besides the P.S. damage bonus is illogical.

Here's the text of the power you keep missing: "The character creates a kinetic surge WITHIN HIMSELF when he attacks someone with his bare hands, feet, or tail, and releases this energy on CONTACT."

This isn't from some sort of field surrounding the hands, feet, tail, wings, nose, whatever, it's coming from within the hero. When he "contacts" someone else, he releases the energy. When he contacts someone more forcefully, he does more damage...or at least should if some INCREDIBLE GENIUS hadn't thought that was somehow too powerful.

If this is meant to be some sort of field surrounding the body part, the power should have been written that way, but it wasn't. The entire power would make sense, if you couldn't add ANY bonuses, butt allowing ALL bonuses EXCEPT P.S. damage bonus is the problem.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:I've read the entire thread, have not missed the point of the thread at all, and find the language both clear and logical. The power's energy release damage is not additive with the damage from PS, if that's not logical to you and you wish to change the power description because you want them to be additive that's up to you but as written it's quite logical.


Sorry, not logical. If no bonuses were applicable, that would be logical. Allowing ALL OTHER bonuses besides the P.S. damage bonus is illogical.

Here's the text of the power you keep missing: "The character creates a kinetic surge WITHIN HIMSELF when he attacks someone with his bare hands, feet, or tail, and releases this energy on CONTACT."

This isn't from some sort of field surrounding the hands, feet, tail, wings, nose, whatever, it's coming from within the hero. When he "contacts" someone else, he releases the energy. When he contacts someone more forcefully, he does more damage...or at least should if some INCREDIBLE GENIUS hadn't thought that was somehow too powerful.

If this is meant to be some sort of field surrounding the body part, the power should have been written that way, but it wasn't. The entire power would make sense, if you couldn't add ANY bonuses, butt allowing ALL bonuses EXCEPT P.S. damage bonus is the problem.


Sorry but no that's the illogical position, the 'all or nothing' fallacy. Whether or not you would add in the PS bonus has no bearing on whether or not you should get to add in strike bonuses, and since the power depends on you actually making contact with someone then logically bonuses like your strike bonuses matter because they don't magically vanish because your delivery system is a power to make the damage instead of a bare fist or brass knuckles or what have you. So while the other bonuses still apply the strength bonus (if any) doesn't because your strength doesn't come into play, the power ensures it doesn't. Heck it could be because as it releases that energy the 'blow-back' as it were stops your fist or foot (or tail) from continuing on to where it could deliver any PS damage bonuses or the Power Channeling consumes that energy during the attack negating it.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Wrong again, sorry. You still add in ALL OTHER BONUSES, like from BODY HARDENING, SUPER-SPEED, etc. The ONLY ONE excluded is P.S. which is B.S.. That's not a fallacy, it's called English.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:Wrong again, sorry. You still add in ALL OTHER BONUSES, like from BODY HARDENING, SUPER-SPEED, etc. The ONLY ONE excluded is P.S. which is B.S.. That's not a fallacy, it's called English.


You're getting borderline insulting there, might want to step back and chill out a bit. When your argument is 'It must be this or that, all or nothing, nowhere in between' that's a fallacy because it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other which is why I don't accept your argument as logical. You have failed to present your position in a fashion that comes across as convincing to me. If you have a better argument do present it otherwise we're at an impasse as I simply haven't seen anything to convince me to think differently, because 'well it gets those bonuses so it ought to get the PS bonus too' isn't sufficient, that's a feeling rather than 'see here is how that PS bonus qualifies as the same as those other bonuses'.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Not insulted, thanks for worrying about my feelings though.

This is an issue with a poorly written power, not what it should or shouldn't be.

Explain why you, Nightmask, would allow other H-T-H bonuses.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by eliakon »

If we are just looking for a reason why the power, as written, has the rules it has, as written.....
*puts on technobabble hat*
Okay, how about this. The Power Channeling power channels and amplifies the bodies normal physical power into super bursts of power. This means that the normal strength result (PS damage bonus) is replaced by the Power Channeling damage. HOWEVER the power can be 'topped up' with other things that are NOT based on the users 'raw kinetic power' (PS). These forms of damage enhancement (such as a H2H skill, or a APS form, or claws or what have you) add because they are not transfigured by the power.
*Takes of hat*
Okay? How's that? A logical, self consistent explanation of why the power would work the way it is written. Is that what you were looking for?
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:If we are just looking for a reason why the power, as written, has the rules it has, as written.....
*puts on technobabble hat*
Okay, how about this. The Power Channeling power channels and amplifies the bodies normal physical power into super bursts of power. This means that the normal strength result (PS damage bonus) is replaced by the Power Channeling damage. HOWEVER the power can be 'topped up' with other things that are NOT based on the users 'raw kinetic power' (PS). These forms of damage enhancement (such as a H2H skill, or a APS form, or claws or what have you) add because they are not transfigured by the power.
*Takes of hat*
Okay? How's that? A logical, self consistent explanation of why the power would work the way it is written. Is that what you were looking for?


That would be fine, and interesting, if it did at least as much damage as a normal punch. As written, it's a cool idea, but you are better off taking Superhuman Strength or an Expulsion power.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by eliakon »

barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:If we are just looking for a reason why the power, as written, has the rules it has, as written.....
*puts on technobabble hat*
Okay, how about this. The Power Channeling power channels and amplifies the bodies normal physical power into super bursts of power. This means that the normal strength result (PS damage bonus) is replaced by the Power Channeling damage. HOWEVER the power can be 'topped up' with other things that are NOT based on the users 'raw kinetic power' (PS). These forms of damage enhancement (such as a H2H skill, or a APS form, or claws or what have you) add because they are not transfigured by the power.
*Takes of hat*
Okay? How's that? A logical, self consistent explanation of why the power would work the way it is written. Is that what you were looking for?


That would be fine, and interesting, if it did at least as much damage as a normal punch. As written, it's a cool idea, but you are better off taking Superhuman Strength or an Expulsion power.

Yep, some times power A is better at some things than power B. That does not mean that power B is bad, just that its different.
One very useful aspect of Power Channeling is that its voluntary. So there is no need to roll a 'pull punch' roll if you are trying to NOT do tons of damage. The person with high strength? Yeah, they are going to sometimes have oops moments....and that can be real bad if the oops is a person.
Power Channeling can be much stronger than most PS levels when you get up there in levels. To replicate a level 8 power channel you need a PS of 50+ on average (or supernatural strength....a MAJOR power)
And as for comparing an expulsion power to this...that's apples to oranges. Expulsion powers are not melee powers ANYWAY so they don't compare to a melee power. That's like saying "what is the comparison between superhuman strength and fireball?"
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Bad game design is the answer, plain and simple.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Genhuman »

Or how about this, back when the power was written, the only thing/power that would affect damage other that the +4 from h2h assassin, and PS bonus was Bio-Armor with a 1d6 bonus, iirc.

I just apply my own logic to the power. It makes sense to me. The damage comes from the channeled energy, and no where else. Just pretend the power doesn't say Kinetic Energy and instead just says Energy, and you won't have any issues in that regard. The part about all other bonuses, restrict that to all non-damage related bonuses (which is what I personally think was intended).

When I restrict it to just Energy, then it opens up a whole new set of possiblitiles. Maybe you have Flame Fists, or Cold Fists, or even Electrical fists. As always, it's your game, change it or interpret it as you will, just don't let it get in the way of fun.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Nightmask »

barna10 wrote:Bad game design is the answer, plain and simple.


The fact you don't like it doesn't make it bad game design, bad game design is something that's ridiculous even by the rules the game supposedly should be running on. Such as in Rifts where you drop two 200lb people from 100' up onto the same surface but the SDC guy takes relatively minor SDC damage while the MDC guy is taking mega-damage when by all rights he should take no damage at all, giving the equivalent of Bruce Banner taking less damage from that fall than the Hulk, with the Hulk having to worry more about breaking bones or dying than the 'puny human'.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by barna10 »

Nightmask wrote:
barna10 wrote:Bad game design is the answer, plain and simple.


The fact you don't like it doesn't make it bad game design, bad game design is something that's ridiculous even by the rules the game supposedly should be running on. Such as in Rifts where you drop two 200lb people from 100' up onto the same surface but the SDC guy takes relatively minor SDC damage while the MDC guy is taking mega-damage when by all rights he should take no damage at all, giving the equivalent of Bruce Banner taking less damage from that fall than the Hulk, with the Hulk having to worry more about breaking bones or dying than the 'puny human'.


Lol, good point.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Tor »

Seems like a lot of letter vs spirit stuff.

Letter: only ignore PS

Spirit: ignore PS and any other force-based stuff

Living Anatomy: it's based on targetting weak spots, add it.

Extraordinary Speed: it's based on force, ignore it (spirit).
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Seems like a lot of letter vs spirit stuff.

Letter: only ignore PS

Spirit: ignore PS and any other force-based stuff

Living Anatomy: it's based on targetting weak spots, add it.

Extraordinary Speed: it's based on force, ignore it (spirit).

Which works great....if you first make a personal call on what the spirit/intent of the power is :P
Which was the whole point of this thread......trying to untangle out how/why the power worked the way it does and what its intent was or was not. :P
And as we have learned....there is a wide range of personal views on what the intent was, all of which are supportable by the same written text.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Tor »

'all bonuses are applicable, except' is mere letter

'because it is the release of energy .. not the force of the blow' is the spirit

Anything based on blow-force (which would include super-speed bonuses) should be ignored like PS, in spirit, even if by letter PS is theoretically the only thing that is 'force of blow' based on the 'all except' statement.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:'all bonuses are applicable, except' is mere letter

'because it is the release of energy .. not the force of the blow' is the spirit

Anything based on blow-force (which would include super-speed bonuses) should be ignored like PS, in spirit, even if by letter PS is theoretically the only thing that is 'force of blow' based on the 'all except' statement.

Yes, that is your interpretation of the spirit. I can easily see someone else feeling that speed should be allowed, as the impact of the speed is separate from the force of the blow. Which is why the whole idea of 'spirit of the intent' is incompatible with 'rules as written' You have to make a judgment call as to what the intent of something is.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Tor »

Impact of speed is not separate from force of blow, speed and mass are components of force.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Impact of speed is not separate from force of blow, speed and mass are components of force.

INTERNAL force of the persons limb muscles (converted into the force) and EXTERNAL force of the speed of the body (not created by those muscles and not converted).
There is that clear enough now?
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Tor »

The speed created from something like say, Extraordinary Speed, is something I figure to be muscle-generated.

Would be nice if the dmg bonus from speed was based on mass in some way though. A 600lb half-sonic body block should do more damage than a 100lb guy doing a 350mph block, yet the only different I am aware of there would be the metal guy having higher PS and getting that meager benefit.

It is hard to physic this since a higherPS guy is not necessarily throwing higher-speed punches to explain the higher force coming from them, which leaves me guessing at what creates the higher impact.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Severus Snape »

I've read through the whole thread. And my 2/100 of a dollar...

I can see how both sides could - COULD - be right on this. If you are striking something without the power, you get the PS bonus, but if you are striking something and using the power, why not? It's perfectly logical to assume that if you are punching something you get to add your PS bonus, whether or not you are using Power Channeling. So, if you are punching something, you should get to add your PS bonus.

However...

This could also be done as a touch attack, not a physical punch. You simply touch something with your fingers/hand/tentacles/dorsal fin, and the power flows through that body part into the target. You aren't punching or kicking or head butting or anything; you are merely touching the target and causing the power to go off. And if you are touching something without putting force behind it, then you don't get PS or other damage bonuses, although you should get strike bonuses to grab or touch something.

Now...

The final determination of whether or not this gets PS bonuses or not is going to be dependent upon every different group of players and their GM. Is it a touch attack, or is it a physical blow? Does that group/GM allow PS bonuses to stack with powers? What house rules are already in place that may or may not take this type of situation into account?

Me personally? The power states that PS bonuses don't apply, so I wouldn't allow ANY damage bonuses. Why? I see it as a touch attack; there is no physical blow happening here, which in my mind is the intent of the power.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Glistam wrote:You said it yourself. It's a "weird balancing issue." A G.M. is free to ignore this restriction if they so choose.

Bill Coffin tossed that rule too. Check any of the power channeling NPCs in Gramercy or Century Station. Haymaker on page 106-107 GI.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Tor »

Yeah I mean, if it is touch-based then why can't that touch be a punch contributing its own force?

The inherent balancing factor is that it doesn't apply to HtH weapons, while strength does.
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Re: Power Channeling...what am I missing?

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

Because of the 'magic' energy field around the touching?


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