Using Demons and Deevils in HU2ed

[Malakai]

I've been going through Palladium Fantasy to pull out some Demons and Deevils for an upcoming game, but I have cmoe to a frustrating problem - they are WEAK!. especially compared to super-types, the standard Demons and Deevils are drastically underpowered, to where even non-powered heroes will thrash them. Any ideas as to how they should be beefed up in a general sense? Or am I off base?

[Glistam]

Waves upon waves of them. And use their magic to their advantage. Liberal use of Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net will quickly turn the tide.

[Reagren Wright]

I undertand your issue. Run into this problem in Palladium fantasy all the time. What I do is increase the S.D.C. of lesser
demons and deevil by either 5 or 10 points per level of experience, depending upon how powerful I feel they are. Like Imps,
deevils, devilkinds, and alu demon hounds I increase by 5. Shedim, gorgons, succubi, mares, and fiends by 10. Now greater
deevils will either get 10 or 20 S.D.C. per level. This is the only thing I change. The rest I leave them be. The S.D.C. is a
must. I mean the street gang punks in Century Station have more S.D.C. and hit point then some demons and deevils. And
its not about having an A.R., supernatural P.S., or magical abilitie. It the practical logic that say a guy 15-20 feet tall should
have more S.D.C. than a chimpanzee, a lion, a wolf, or a color punk.

[Stone Gargoyle]

You can also use ones created using the Immortals category from PU2. You might also want to check out Armageddon Unlimited (I think that is what it's called anyways).

[AzathothXy]

Give some of them superpowers. A Beast that transfoms into metal or a invulnerable Magot should be interesting. Maybe a Succubus with lycanthropy. Or a Succubus queen with energy whip and life leech.

Kinda along the lines of Diablo's elite and unique monsters.

[Tor]

methinks OP's heroes might just be of above-average strength

Any examples of the fights going on?

Has OP involved the Demon Knights from Dimensional Outbreak? They're great anti-supers.

[Malakai]

This is for a one-shot event. It's a historical setting - early 1900's Russia. Due to setting, the heroes are rather "average" in the effect that they don't have super-powers in the usual sense: We've got a (modified) super-slueth, two Ancient Weapons Masters (one ranged, one melee focused), Physical Training, Mystic Study, and a Hardware: Weapons Genius. All are at least 5th level

Now, while these seem rather underpowered, the damage they can do, and the rate at which they can do it, means most groups of demons are dead rather quickly.
Slueth: fairly average. a revolver would do 2D6, if he can get his hands on a rifle, up to 5D6, but not a primary combatant.
Melee: Dual-wielding swords - 2D6+10 (Weapon+PS Bonus), with a +8 to Strike and a +12 to Parry BEFORE adding in PP bonuses. While not the damage king, he can certainly hold them back and whittle them down fairly well. He's also sporting 8 Attacks with such weapons at 5th level.
Ranged: 3D6+5 (PS Bonus) per arrow from a hand-made bow, and he could launch 3 of these at a time. Average would be 46 per shot, which if you take a look, would kill most lesser demons or deevils in a couple shots, the greater ones with a couple more. Less than half of the Greater Demons or Deevils even have the appropriate spells to bolster their SDC or Hit Points much. His rate of Fire is 8 at 5th level
Physical: Strikes from this guy are averaging 35-40 per hit, not counting his special power attacks. He may not have AS high of a strike bonus as the others, but it is certainly high enough to meet or beat the demon's defensive bonuses, which mean more often then not, they are getting pounded by this guy
Mystic: Even this guys is quite capable of throwing around 15-20 damage an Attack, to say nothing of the other spells available
Hardware: Surprisingly this guy is on the lower-end of the damage-dealing, at least for the most part: the guns and revolvers available to him would limit damage to around 5D6 per attack, which is about the same as the Melee specialist, assuming he wants a defensive option.

Average HP/SDC of the various Demons:
Alu Demon Hound: 41/35 - 76 total
Couril: 23/19 - 42 total
Ghoul: 34/14 - 45 total
Lasae: 24/21 - 45 total
Shedim: 40/50 - 90 total
Baal-Rog: 98/50 - 148 total
Demon Locust: 50(71)/70 - 214 (141) *The book doesn't say they get to add their PE in as HP, so I included both numbers
Gallu: 28(47)/65 - 93 (112) *Same with the Demon Bull
Jinn: 67/35 - 102
Magots: 50(70)/42 - 92 (112) *And the Magot

etc. The Deevils don't do much better. Most of the Lessers are in the 40-70 range, the Greaters at 110-150, when you combine both HP and SDC. Given the above damage groupings, few lessers will survive 4 hits from most anyone in the group, and some will fall after 1 or 2 non-critical shots. Meanwhile their damage potential, even with SNPS, is not that great - 24 or 25 for the Shedim and Alu, but less than half that for the other Lessers. Even the big bad Greater Demons are in the 40-45, which Mr. Physical Training can do with his bare hands, and the Ranged Master can do from 500 yards away. Most of the PCs are having 40 or so SDC, and another 30+ HP, in addition to generally having more attacks and better bonuses than the demons. I know the PCs are generally supposed to win, but the odds look heavily stacked in their favor - I want to give them a bit more of a challenge than that.

[DtMK]

I think the easiest thing without changing them too much is, give them the same limited invulnerabilities other beings can have. If werewolves or vampires aren't harmed by normal weapons, I say anything above a gargoyle in standing can only be hurt by magic, psionics or specific elements. You can give them the equivalent of Damage Resistance too, automatically taking off a certain amount of damage points before it actually affects them. Now, you can beat on them, maybe even knock them down or stun them. But without the right tools, all you're gonna do is tick them off. See? Simplest solution without having to up their SDC.

[Tor]

A lot of demons can turn invisible, and they have wicked regeneration to use hit-and-run tactics. Why aren't they just whittling down your PCs that way?

[Tinker Dragoon]

I've been going through Palladium Fantasy to pull out some Demons and Deevils for an upcoming game, but I have cmoe to a frustrating problem - they are WEAK!. especially compared to super-types, the standard Demons and Deevils are drastically underpowered, to where even non-powered heroes will thrash them. Any ideas as to how they should be beefed up in a general sense? Or am I off base?

It is true that demons & deevils have relatively low H.P. and S.D.C. compared to other HU threats, but they make up for it in subtle ways:

1. Lesser demons and deevils fight en masse, and will often be led (perhaps invisibly) by a powerful master (typically a greater demon/deevil, immortal, sorcerer, or cult).
2. The Armor Rating of all demons and deevils is Natural A.R. (even if it's only a 10 or 12 for the weakest varieties).
3. Many species bio-regenerate on a per-melee basis.
4. All types have supernatural P.S., so even invulnerable characters have something to fear.
5. No demon/deevil can truly die in the world of mortals; killing their bodies merely discorporates them and returns them to the netherworld, ready to be summoned or rifted in anew. This also means that they will fight without fear or mercy.

Still, if you want your monsters to be a little more durable, you could up the S.D.C. by 50-100%. You could also make them resistant or invulnerable to normal, non-magical attacks that defeat their A.R. (I'd go with one-half damage for lesser beings, and one-quarter to zero damage for greater beings).

[Slight001]

5. No demon/deevil can truly die in the world of mortals; killing their bodies merely discorporates them and returns them to the netherworld, ready to be summoned or rifted in anew. This also means that they will fight without fear or mercy.

IIRC, the death of their bodies forces them into a reincarnation cycle that lasts a long ass time... IE several decades to millennia... I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine that one can't be summoned during a reincarnation cycle.

[eliakon]

5. No demon/deevil can truly die in the world of mortals; killing their bodies merely discorporates them and returns them to the netherworld, ready to be summoned or rifted in anew. This also means that they will fight without fear or mercy.

IIRC, the death of their bodies forces them into a reincarnation cycle that lasts a long ass time... IE several decades to millennia... I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine that one can't be summoned during a reincarnation cycle.

While totally non-canon I allow summoning to be used as a short-cut for the reincarnation cycle....its one of the few reasons to tolerate summoners in fact.....

[Tor]

The natural AR a lot of these baddies have (along with lack of auto-parry from a HtH skill) will make them very prone to doing simultaneous attacks which can whittle down heroes.

[Glistam]

Instead of using their posted stats, if you start with their M.D.C. stats and then convert them into S.D.C. using the generic rules in the rifts conversion book, they'll be a lot more powerful as far as S.D.C. and H.P. go.

[say652]

After a standard Mdc to Sdc conversion, add on the mega hero BONUSES, if still under powered they are Alien to the hu world so the Power Category applies.

Demon Megahero Alien

[Tor]

Watching a recent episode of Sleepy Hollow where Abby and Ichabod had to fight an invisible creature gave me some renewed respect for these creatures who have the 'turn at will' ability.

This isn't Rifts after all, not everyone and their mom has an infravision multi-optic eye or helmet.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, invisibility is super strong when your enemy can't negate the advantage.

Also, don't base something's effectiveness on it's SDC and PS. Think tactically. Make the terrain work to the demon's advantage by making the area full of obstructions so the ranged guy can't hit them from far away. Make the passages wide so they players can't use choke points. Give the demon's magic support (a bunch of them rocking Armor of Ithan and Impervious to Energy charging at you with giant meat cleavers is no fun for anyone).

[Damian Magecraft]

Iirc most of the demons and devils have access to spells as well.
A well placed AoI will increase their toughness considerably.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the best thing to do to give them a bit more surviveability is to give demons the TW/Technomagic gear unveiled in Megaverse in Flames. A Gallu demon bull isn't too bad. a gallu demon bull in demon-built TW power armor with magical weapons is a bit more of a threat.

[The Artist Formerly]

I've been going through Palladium Fantasy to pull out some Demons and Deevils for an upcoming game, but I have cmoe to a frustrating problem - they are WEAK!. especially compared to super-types, the standard Demons and Deevils are drastically underpowered, to where even non-powered heroes will thrash them. Any ideas as to how they should be beefed up in a general sense? Or am I off base?

Add a super power. Harden skin, EX:PE, healing factor. Something like that. Or from the alien table, use the alien environment of toxic atmosphere or abrasive atmosphere. For all intents and purposes, demons are alien critters, just from another dimension, rather then part of the galaxy.

Recall, PFRPG baddies are designed to fight dorks with sharp sticks. Heroes Unlimited characters are built to go knuckle to blade fist with Riathnor. The fantasy characters are going to be weak sauce, by comparison. That would be the same as taking a D&D monster and tossing it into Mutants and Masterminds.

Hehehe, for fun send some Riathnor to PFRPG, see how those losers hold up.

[Tor]

Is there anything explicitly preventing the Halcyon Protocal invented by The Creator from working on Demons or Devils?

Just got me wondering.

These guys eventually regenerate if they die in other dimensions so they might be willing to risk death from the Halcyon Effect for the added power.

Errata for Century Station explaining what triggers the percentage would also be nice. Very unclear for certain always-on powers like strength/limbs.