Duc rounds vs invulnerable characters

[say652]

1/2 damage??

[Glistam]

No damage.

[say652]

Radioactive though

[Stone Gargoyle]

If the bullets don't penetrate, damage would be nil. Exposure to radiation would have to be prolonged to make the target sick, but I would assume if the bullets bounce off then the target would just walk away from them.

[say652]

Hmmm. Back to the drawing board.

[Chronicle]

A Magically enchanted set of DU rounds though might be a different story.

[say652]

I am working on super hunting psi stalkers. I may have to mega hero a few to handle heavy hitters like this.

[Glistam]

DUC are Depleted Uranium Rounds. Basically, they're good for being extra dense - not radioactive. You were probably thinking of Uranium Rounds, as introduced in Rifts: Triax. The special ability of those rounds were that they impeded the regeneration ability of many supernatural creatures. And neither of these bullets meet the criteria for damaging a character with Invulnerability.

Your best bet there in your scenario would probably be to suffocate them. Let them flail around trying to hit your guys, and they strategically dodge so that the attack hits a building's support beams. Hit enough and the place collapses on him. He'll survive, but become trapped and run out of air.

Unless of course, you have access to Supernatural Strength, Magical forms of damage or Psionic forms of damage...

Note in the power that Radiation is only "half the usual potency" and the character cannot be killed by it.

[say652]

I know G I am trying to envision my Super Stalkers taking down a beast like this. I guess a mega or two per squad is in order.

[Glistam]

Knock him down a deep, deep pit with smooth sides that he can't climb up. Cover the top and wait 7 days.

[say652]

You have to inflict damage to feed though.

[Glistam]

They don't have to FEED on him to defeat him. What does he need his PPE for, anyway? Why would an invulnerable character even care if Psi-Stalkers feed on him? He's not even supernatural, magical or psychic, so why would Psi-Stalkers even care in the first place? There's gotta be easier, tastier targets around.

[Glistam]

Make some or all of your Psi-Stalkers Psi-Slayers instead, as per Rifts World Book 12: Psycape. They get to choose a Psi-Dagger as one of their special super-psi power, and that should solve your dilemma.

[say652]

The concept is. 'Murica decided to do somethin about these freaks. And enter the Super Stalker.

[Glistam]

Use Psi-Slayers from Psycape instead of Psi-Stalkers. You're welcome.

[say652]

As always thank you Glistram.

[drewkitty ~..~]

DUC are Depleted Uranium Rounds. Basically, they're good for being extra dense - not radioactive. You were probably thinking of Uranium Rounds, as introduced in Rifts: Triax. The special ability of those rounds were that they impeded the regeneration ability of many supernatural creatures. And neither of these bullets meet the criteria for damaging a character with Invulnerability.
...snip

Where to start.....

The name "DU" is sort of a misnomer.

Depleted uranium (DU; also referred to in the past as Q-metal, depletalloy or D-38) is uranium with a lower content of the fissile isotope U-235 than natural uranium.[2] ....
...
Most depleted uranium arises as a byproduct of the production of enriched uranium for use in nuclear reactors and in the manufacture of nuclear weapons....

DU is

"Not Radioactive"....Not!

It is only weakly radioactive because of its long radioactive half-life (4.468 billion years for uranium-238, 700 million years for uranium-235).

Low Radioactivity Yes. I would not want to be carrying them on my person all the time unless they were shielded somehow.

Both DU and U rounds are talked about in the Triax book, and you are correct that it it the U round that "has an effect on the SN". The only super powered chars that "Might!" be effected by U rounds are the Mega-Heros or Immortals.
However, the canon text for DU rounds for HU2 is in the Hardware power cat section of the HU2 MB.

sidenote: Like with plutonium, uranium is a toxic metal.

[Glistam]

Also, psi-stalkers and super powers aren't real either.

[Sir_Spirit]

Aldo invulnerable characters aren't vulnerable to physical psionics.

[Glistam]

Page 154 of Rifts World Book 12: Psyscape has the "CS Psionic Weapon Gauntlet" which lets its psionic wearer create a psi-sword, psi-shield, and use some electrokinesis abilities. While none of these effects are as powerful as the real thing, they can be mass-produced and provided to every Psi-Stalker who needs it.

[Reagren Wright]

What if you used the pi-stalker concept, but instead of feeding on P.P.E., he feeds on superhumans. In Rifts a Psi-Stalker
can drain 300 P.P.E. from a mage, how about a super being psi-stalker generates a psi-sword that when it strikes a super
being, he can drained of all his super abilities (bonuses, attributes, etc) equal to a Negate Super Power for a duration of
your choosing.

[Tor]

invulnerable characters aren't vulnerable to physical psionics.

Page?

Psi-Sword is a super and Psi-Dagger is a special so...

[Daniel Stoker]

Yeah, the power itself says:

The character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However energy type magic, like fireballs does no damage.

But I don't see anything there that say it's not vulnerable to physical psionics.


Daniel Stoker

[Reagren Wright]

I'm trying to remember cause that was greatly debated in my group because a friend argued why doesn't a Psi-Shield do half
damage if the Psi-Sword does half damage. I know all the physical psionics cannot harm the invulnerable character but the
psi-sword does. If no one post the reference before I get home from work, I'll find it.

[Tor]

Psi-Shield is never given damage, so I'd opt to have it default to 1d4 for bashing techniques.

Not sure if it should remain damage (SDC/HP) or increase to mega-damage (MD) in other settings.

[The Artist Formerly]

Psi-Shield is never given damage, so I'd opt to have it default to 1d4 for bashing techniques.

Not sure if it should remain damage (SDC/HP) or increase to mega-damage (MD) in other settings.

You'd be better off with 1d6+ Dmg mod for SDC settings. No mass to the shield, but you do have an active force resisting both energy and impact tied to the will of the user. This lets you scale up and down depending on the description the player gives you of his or her shield.

In MDC settings, it would be the same as hitting something with a MDC pipe. If you have MDC punches, gain +1d4/1d6/2d4 ect, if not, then it's an SDC level attack.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psi-Shields are essentially movable force fields. And whether or not they would do any damage to those immune to mundane weapons or do extra damage to those vulnerable to psi are not stated in the texts. (This is actually the 1st time I've seen this specific question on the boards.)

Bashing about with a shield "in HU" would be only SD. If there are no text about what sort of damage shields do in HU2, going to PF2 would be the optimal choice for forming a house rule.

In MDC settings (Rifts, 3G, Splicers, & RT2) what sort of Damage would be dependent on what sort of PS the wielder has. Those with just normal PS, I would follow the HU statement I just made. While I would have any MD attacks be based off the MD damage charts (Augmented, Robotic, & SNPS).

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm trying to remember cause that was greatly debated in my group because a friend argued why doesn't a Psi-Shield do half
damage if the Psi-Sword does half damage. I know all the physical psionics cannot harm the invulnerable character but the
psi-sword does. If no one post the reference before I get home from work, I'll find it.

The Invulnerable power says that they're vulnerable to psionics but that's it.


Daniel Stoker

[Reagren Wright]

It might be a Rifter article in which the author says Kevin believes it should do full damage and the author says it should do half.
I believe the argument comes about because it says under Psi-Sword, "the sword does full damage against creatures of magic,
demons, supernatural beings and creatures or armor that is impervious to normal weapons (this is not a normal weapon)". Since
invulnerability is vulnerable to non-conventional (normal) weapons (magic and mental psionic) therefore the character takes
damage from a psi-sword. I guess it depends upon the G.M. if you believe a psi sword is just like a telekinetic or pyrokinesis
attack. I for one always said no. But I guess the Psi-Sword is more than a mental force sword (at least in Kevin's mind).

[NMI]

1/2 damage??

As the DUC rounds could not penetrate the skin of the Invulnerable being, then they would do no damage.

If perhaps the Invulnerable being held onto a significant amount of DUC rounds without them being properly sealed/stored, then perhaps he might contract radiation sickness of some sort.

=========================

As for Psi-Sword damaging Invulnerable beings...

I would say it does, at least in my games. Why? Because I do not see it as a manifestation of a physical object, more of a concentration of psychic energy - aka ISP aka PPE. At the very least, it should do 1/2 damage. Of course in my games, I also allow someone using Psi-Sword to add the bonus from a high M.E. on the P.S. table to their damage with a Psi-Sword, much like how a person with a regular sword would add the bonus from a high PS to the damage with say a rapier.

[Tor]

I wonder, what if a Latent Psychic used teleport object to put a DU-round inside of an invulnerable?

Even if radiation can't kill, sweet penalties still.

[NMI]

I wonder, what if a Latent Psychic used teleport object to put a DU-round inside of an invulnerable?

Even if radiation can't kill, sweet penalties still.

Dont you have to "see" where you are teleporting something to?

[Tor]

Good point. Mutant with X-ray vision minor Spower and teleport object minor Psi

[The Artist Formerly]

I wonder, what if a Latent Psychic used teleport object to put a DU-round inside of an invulnerable?

Even if radiation can't kill, sweet penalties still.

Dont you have to "see" where you are teleporting something to?

I asked Wayne B that question, and he said 'not into living creatures'. I guess big Kev doesn't allow instant kill effects. Nor save or die type events. And as we know from intangibility, having a object materialize inside you or t-porting into something else is fatal. A bit of a contradiction, I know, but that's the deal. Otherwise I'd have DelSeN replace his knock out darts with industrial grade Drain-O and go on a super human killing spree.

[Tor]

A small object teleporting into a hollow part of you shouldn't be fatal.

[Daniel Stoker]

Yes and no? I mean something teleporting into your lung is going to end up doing damage to the lung as it rattles and moves around. I'd think the same of say the bladder etc. But it also will depend on the composition of the article and where. I mean if you do a small blade into one of the ventricles of the heart? That's not going to end well for the person.


Daniel Stoker

[The Artist Formerly]

Yes and no? I mean something teleporting into your lung is going to end up doing damage to the lung as it rattles and moves around. I'd think the same of say the bladder etc. But it also will depend on the composition of the article and where. I mean if you do a small blade into one of the ventricles of the heart? That's not going to end well for the person.


Daniel Stoker

Wayne said the effect just fails. Just think of how one could abuse such a technique.

[Daniel Stoker]

Oh I agree it's just ripe for abuse, I was just going over what it could do if it did work.


Daniel Stoker

[glitterboy2098]

if you read the entry for U-rounds in WB5, they do harm invulnerable creatures like vampires and werewolves.

WB5 triax and NGR, pg141:
Gargoyles, brodkil, dragons, sphinxes, unicorns, zavors, splugorth, vampires, werebeasts, ghouls, most gods, alien intelligences, demons, deevils, earth elementals, and most supernatural beings and so called demons.

whether they will harm other invulnerable creatures is up to the GM, but i'd say the precedent is there.

[wyrmraker]

if you read the entry for U-rounds in WB5, they do harm invulnerable creatures like vampires and werewolves.

WB5 triax and NGR, pg141:
Gargoyles, brodkil, dragons, sphinxes, unicorns, zavors, splugorth, vampires, werebeasts, ghouls, most gods, alien intelligences, demons, deevils, earth elementals, and most supernatural beings and so called demons.

whether they will harm other invulnerable creatures is up to the GM, but i'd say the precedent is there.

I am going to have to disagree with your precedent. Werewolves and Vampires have limited invulnerability, and are described as the weapons hitting and penetrating, but doing no damage.

A character with the power Invulnerability doesn't have that. The uranium slug wouldn't even penetrate, therefor no effect.

[The Artist Formerly]

if you read the entry for U-rounds in WB5, they do harm invulnerable creatures like vampires and werewolves.

WB5 triax and NGR, pg141:
Gargoyles, brodkil, dragons, sphinxes, unicorns, zavors, splugorth, vampires, werebeasts, ghouls, most gods, alien intelligences, demons, deevils, earth elementals, and most supernatural beings and so called demons.

whether they will harm other invulnerable creatures is up to the GM, but i'd say the precedent is there.

But in Rifts, you don't gain Invulnerability as the power works in HU2E, but rather you just get a bunch of MDC. Back on Heroes Earth, we have a different game.

[Tor]

if you read the entry for U-rounds in WB5, they do harm invulnerable creatures like vampires and werewolves.

I take that to mean that you can combine silver rounds with U-rounds somehow.

in Rifts, you don't gain Invulnerability as the power works in HU2E, but rather you just get a bunch of MDC.

Source?

As I understood it, all attributes of the power still apply. Conversion Book notes only tell us what changes about the power, what is added to it. Things do not need to be repeated in the conversion book to apply.

The version printed in Skraypers for example has both the 700 MDC from CB1 and the original immunity notes from HU consolidated together.

[drewkitty ~..~]

in Rifts, you don't gain Invulnerability as the power works in HU2E, but rather you just get a bunch of MDC.

In Rifts As per Rifts Con. Book 1 revised (which converts the HU2 superpower) they get their HP&SDC in MDC in addition to the Invulnerability super power.

As per RCB1 & scrapers (which converts the HU1r superpower) they have the Invulnerability superpower and 700+ MDC.

With the Rifts Invulnerability Spell the target is Invulnerable to fire and all energy attack and all gas/poison/toxin/drug attacks, and a MDC FF. I take the Magic MDC FF to be only effected by attacks that the target of the spell is not Invulnerability to. (i.e: cold and projectiles).

Since the DU and U rounds only effect things 'once they have penetrated' they will not effect and of the Invulnerability superpower char, while it would effect Invulnerability spell chars.

[The Artist Formerly]

in Rifts, you don't gain Invulnerability as the power works in HU2E, but rather you just get a bunch of MDC.

In Rifts As per Rifts Con. Book 1 revised (which converts the HU2 superpower) they get their HP&SDC in MDC in addition to the Invulnerability super power.

As per RCB1 & scrapers (which converts the HU1r superpower) they have the Invulnerability superpower and 700+ MDC.

With the Rifts Invulnerability Spell the target is Invulnerable to fire and all energy attack and all gas/poison/toxin/drug attacks, and a MDC FF. I take the Magic MDC FF to be only effected by attacks that the target of the spell is not Invulnerability to. (i.e: cold and projectiles).

Since the DU and U rounds only effect things 'once they have penetrated' they will not effect and of the Invulnerability superpower char, while it would effect Invulnerability spell chars.

I dislike Scrappers because it's one of those bridge books, and in trying to serve two masters, it does neither well. Either way, I agree with your position, Rifts is Rifts, and in HU, the rounds just don't get through the invulnerable character's skin.

[NMI]

in Rifts, you don't gain Invulnerability as the power works in HU2E, but rather you just get a bunch of MDC.

In Rifts As per Rifts Con. Book 1 revised (which converts the HU2 superpower) they get their HP&SDC in MDC in addition to the Invulnerability super power.

As per RCB1 & scrapers (which converts the HU1r superpower) they have the Invulnerability superpower and 700+ MDC.

With the Rifts Invulnerability Spell the target is Invulnerable to fire and all energy attack and all gas/poison/toxin/drug attacks, and a MDC FF. I take the Magic MDC FF to be only effected by attacks that the target of the spell is not Invulnerability to. (i.e: cold and projectiles).

Since the DU and U rounds only effect things 'once they have penetrated' they will not effect and of the Invulnerability superpower char, while it would effect Invulnerability spell chars.

Personally, "ME", "I" have always viewed that 700 MDC when it comes to what can hurt them normally but in Rifts. 10 Glitterboys fire their Boomguns and roll natural 20's? The Invulnerable PC gets up after being knocked back several, several feet and says "Is that all that you got?" Dragon claws at the Invulnerable guy - who then wonders "how did that happen and... why am I bleeding now?"

I dont use the 700 MDC to mean that though they take damage from everything, they just are able to take more of it. I dont buy that and I dont think that was the intention when the conversion of the power was given "700 MDC".

[guardiandashi]

in Rifts, you don't gain Invulnerability as the power works in HU2E, but rather you just get a bunch of MDC.

In Rifts As per Rifts Con. Book 1 revised (which converts the HU2 superpower) they get their HP&SDC in MDC in addition to the Invulnerability super power.

As per RCB1 & scrapers (which converts the HU1r superpower) they have the Invulnerability superpower and 700+ MDC.

With the Rifts Invulnerability Spell the target is Invulnerable to fire and all energy attack and all gas/poison/toxin/drug attacks, and a MDC FF. I take the Magic MDC FF to be only effected by attacks that the target of the spell is not Invulnerability to. (i.e: cold and projectiles).

Since the DU and U rounds only effect things 'once they have penetrated' they will not effect and of the Invulnerability superpower char, while it would effect Invulnerability spell chars.

it may not be canon, but the way I read the triax and ngr info on du and u rounds they actually WOULD hurt an invulnerable char, altho the damage would likely still be low because "something" about the properties of uranium "shorts out" supernatural abilities. so if you allow for that explanation, (and also the "house rule" thread about allowing sdc to damage invulnerable when a single blow inflicts mdc (equivalents) then a gun firing u or du rounds is possibly doing single digit damage to the invulnerable char... which doesn't sound like much... but could be an Ouchy eventually.

[Glistam]

Triax has learned that the phenomenal healing powers of most (92%) supernatural menaces and creatures of magic are seriously impaired by radioactive material. Not radiation itself, but radioactive material that penetrates the skin.

Unless the character with the Invulnerability super power is a Mega-Hero or provided the power from one of the Magic power categories that provide superpowers, that character will not be additionally harmed by U-Rounds because U-Rounds only impair the healing powers of (non-energy) supernatural beings or creatures of magic. And even if the character with Invulnerability is supernatural or magical in nature, then there is still an 8% chance that the character will not be affected.

[Nightmask]

in Rifts, you don't gain Invulnerability as the power works in HU2E, but rather you just get a bunch of MDC.

In Rifts As per Rifts Con. Book 1 revised (which converts the HU2 superpower) they get their HP&SDC in MDC in addition to the Invulnerability super power.

As per RCB1 & scrapers (which converts the HU1r superpower) they have the Invulnerability superpower and 700+ MDC.

With the Rifts Invulnerability Spell the target is Invulnerable to fire and all energy attack and all gas/poison/toxin/drug attacks, and a MDC FF. I take the Magic MDC FF to be only effected by attacks that the target of the spell is not Invulnerability to. (i.e: cold and projectiles).

Since the DU and U rounds only effect things 'once they have penetrated' they will not effect and of the Invulnerability superpower char, while it would effect Invulnerability spell chars.

Personally, "ME", "I" have always viewed that 700 MDC when it comes to what can hurt them normally but in Rifts. 10 Glitterboys fire their Boomguns and roll natural 20's? The Invulnerable PC gets up after being knocked back several, several feet and says "Is that all that you got?" Dragon claws at the Invulnerable guy - who then wonders "how did that happen and... why am I bleeding now?"

I dont use the 700 MDC to mean that though they take damage from everything, they just are able to take more of it. I dont buy that and I dont think that was the intention when the conversion of the power was given "700 MDC".

Which makes sense, after all the character's SDC and HP while in SDC settings doesn't mean that they take damage from everything but only take damage when something that can explicitly overcome their Invulnerability happens. The MDC given in the Conversion Book is just the equivalent to the SDC/HP they have in non-MDC settings, there for the few things that can bypass their Invulnerability since you couldn't leave them as just SDC/HP since they'd be vapor the first time they encountered something that got around it which would hardly fit the concept.